S reimport tool

HelloHere in the german msts scene is a working .s reimport tool out since today. You can import in 3D Max 4 and above, Milkshape an Cinema 4D. I think that will also swap over to here the next days. I not sure how to think about it, there may be a lot of trouble aheat. For me, maybe a good time to stop working, we have enough trouble in time where that tool was not out, with people who claim other models as there own...MadMike

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RE: .s reimport tool, black5, Feb-06-04, 06:48 PM, (1) RE: .s reimport tool, MadMike, Feb-07-04, 03:00 AM, (4) RE: .s reimport tool, pwillard, Feb-07-04, 11:33 AM, (8) RE: .s reimport tool, steak, Feb-06-04, 07:24 PM, (2) RE: .s reimport tool, pwillard, Feb-06-04, 09:06 PM, (3) RE: .s reimport tool, steak, Feb-07-04, 07:13 AM, (5) RE: .s reimport tool, yohanniz, Feb-07-04, 07:59 AM, (6) RE: .s reimport tool, muskokaandtahoe, Feb-07-04, 11:08 AM, (7) RE: .s reimport tool, yohanniz, Feb-07-04, 11:43 AM, (10) RE: .s reimport tool, CP3084, Feb-07-04, 11:36 AM, (9) RE: .s reimport tool, pwillard, Feb-07-04, 12:10 PM, (11) RE: .s reimport tool, rdamurphy, Feb-07-04, 01:32 PM, (12) RE: .s reimport tool, goldenpig, Feb-07-04, 11:24 PM, (13) RE: .s reimport tool, VR6MAN, Feb-08-04, 00:20 AM, (14) RE: .s reimport tool, SAVV, Feb-08-04, 02:00 AM, (15) RE: .s reimport tool, VRfan, Feb-08-04, 04:53 AM, (16) RE: .s reimport tool, TonyBzt, Feb-08-04, 09:25 AM, (17) RE: .s re-import tool, chucksc, Feb-08-04, 04:13 PM, (18) RE: .s re-import tool, driver89, Feb-08-04, 05:59 PM, (19) RE: .s re-import tool, philmoberg, Feb-08-04, 07:16 PM, (20) RE: .s re-import tool, ctillier, Feb-08-04, 09:41 PM, (21) RE: .s re-import tool, chucksc, Feb-08-04, 10:12 PM, (22) RE: .s re-import tool, pwillard, Feb-08-04, 10:19 PM, (23) RE: .s re-import tool, chucksc, Feb-09-04, 00:51 AM, (24) RE: .s re-import tool, TonyBzt, Feb-09-04, 04:04 PM, (27) RE: .s re-import tool, ctillier, Feb-09-04, 08:30 PM, (28) RE: .s re-import tool, pwillard, Feb-09-04, 09:23 PM, (29) RE: .s re-import tool, VRfan, Feb-10-04, 01:34 AM, (30) RE: .s re-import tool, TonyBzt, Feb-10-04, 02:27 PM, (31) RE: .s reimport tool, rdamurphy, Feb-09-04, 02:04 AM, (25) RE: .s reimport tool, goldenpig, Feb-09-04, 03:35 AM, (26) RE: .s reimport tool, GrizzlyBear, Feb-10-04, 06:58 PM, (32) RE: .s reimport tool, dadio2k, Feb-10-04, 07:56 PM, (33) RE: .s reimport tool, Vulcan Foundry, Feb-10-04, 09:50 PM, (34) RE: .s reimport tool, GrizzlyBear, Feb-10-04, 10:15 PM, (35) RE: .s reimport tool, Vulcan Foundry, Feb-10-04, 10:49 PM, (36) RE: .s reimport tool, driver89, Feb-11-04, 00:50 AM, (37) RE: .s reimport tool, 3DRailHound, Feb-11-04, 04:34 PM, (38) RE: .s reimport tool, sergiomp, Feb-11-04, 08:21 PM, (39) RE: .s reimport tool, Vulcan Foundry, Feb-11-04, 10:52 PM, (40) RE: .s reimport tool, pwillard, Feb-12-04, 08:22 AM, (41) RE: .s reimport tool, VRfan, Feb-12-04, 09:59 AM, (42) RE: .s reimport tool, TonyBzt, Feb-12-04, 05:31 PM, (43) RE: .s reimport tool, chucksc, Feb-12-04, 09:45 PM, (44) RE: .s reimport tool, Engineer, Feb-15-04, 06:34 PM, (45) RE: .s reimport tool, Mirai Zikasu, Feb-16-04, 00:28 AM, (46) RE: .s reimport tool, yellowdog, Feb-16-04, 06:19 PM, (47) RE: .s reimport tool, Mirai Zikasu, Feb-16-04, 08:10 PM, (48) RE: .s reimport tool, Vulcan Foundry, Feb-16-04, 09:04 PM, (49) RE: .s reimport tool, Mirai Zikasu, Feb-16-04, 10:15 PM, (50) RE: .s reimport tool, Vulcan Foundry, Feb-17-04, 05:26 AM, (51)

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Hi Madmike...don't stop working..you produce some of the best made stock..especially steam..that would be a great loss to the community.
Is what you are talking about a form of 'reverse engineering'??
Can anything be done with the web sites..try to get people to boycott the D/Ls ..whatever..
I wonder what the reaction here is going to be??? as if I didn't know!!!.There are going to be some very hot wires on the internet...}>

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@black5'reverse engineering'? Dont know the meaning of that. It a simple tool that brings you any .s file in Max. Exported from Max to a .3ds file, open with GMax and you also have the ace files ready mapped at the Model. See this ( Pete, you know that Model MadMike

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-07-04 AT 11:35 AM (EST)

Yes, that is my skeleton. It is a beta version of my yet "unreleased" work, for which only I have the master 3DC file... as if THAT matters anymore! The reason it's not released?I guess you figured that out by now.Pete Willard


http://www.trainsimstuff.com

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-04 AT 07:26 PM (EST)

I believe is the right time to start "watermarking" our work.
In fact, I'm thinking about something that you can refer as the
"signature" of a model.. not something that relies on .ace files (even
if this is a common system to protect copyright - see the Watermark
module in Adobe Photoshop, which can be also - as far as I know -
protected with something similar to SSL signature), but something
that can be modeled and that can be very hard to find... In real life modeling (H0 scale) a friend of mine uses a piece of
1/10th of millimeter brass wire spiralled as a rope, that he puts
on every model he makes... it is "his" signature...For example, a very small vertex pattern (let's say about 9 vertex in
a plain space) configured in a way that can be "hidden" somewhere in
the 3D model that are very hard to find but can show who was the
author...This is just my imagination flowing, since - as a programmer - I know
very well that something that has been made by a human, can be
"reverse engineered" by another human.. even if it is hiding lots
of calculation - but that is the purpose of computers...Let me know if my mind about this is wrong or if it could be the
right way to follow...Cheers
AlexPS for MadMike: check my thread here in train-sim.com forum about
SBB Be 4/6, I believe you're gonna appreciate it

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-04 AT 09:07 PM (EST)

Gimme a freaking break...We need this tool... why? We have enough s file theives already. We need to give them more illicit tools?Well, as far as I'm concerned, they can keep screwing with the OLD models, cuz the new ones might not show up as regularly. MINE models are now for my *own* personal enjoyment and have been so for the last 6 months. I wonder how many others have decided to do the same?Pete Willard

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IMHO, I'm not going to stop making models for me and other to enjoy.
As I've stated before, I'm going to seek a way to create some kind
of mark in my models.
The hard thing is to find a way of creating an object, a mesh or
whatever that it is so small and hidden that cannot be find by the
.s files thieves. And if I see that by some means a model of mine
has been stealed, I can check the shapes for my mark and then tell
the world about it.I believe that if someone is so good at finding object/mesh watermarks
inside my models, then maybe his knowledge of 3D studio/Canvas (or whatever else) is much more than mine. And so I guess that if they
are so good at it, they should create models and not stealing other's
production.Space for consideration follows...ciao
Alex

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Actually, the only way to prevent someone from reimporting .s files
would be a new one-way encryption algorithm for .s files. But who is
able to do that?I believe that mesh watermarks won't help - turn on wireframe-mode in
your 3D application and look for some non-suiting polygons or whatever and delete them.Well, that's sad news and hopefully there will be a way to protect the
models from being abused (not only by some foolish MSTS newbie, but also
by some non-TS-related persons)Hannes

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I dunno too much about this subject but it seems that any re-engineered cad file would likely produce a .s file that would be remarkably similar to the original. Wouldn't a comparison show a very high percentage of identical values? I mean how many occurences of values like "uv_point ( 1.00006 -6.10352e-005 )" do you need to see?Dave NelsonWP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 100% complete;
SP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 20% complete;
Aug 1950
<<new .sig under onstruction>>

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True, but if you only use e.g. the bogey of one car, the chasis of another one and maybe the buffers of a third car? And there are easy
ways to change uvw-coordinates in 3D studio/gmax/cinema by simply
applying a certain modifier Hannes

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Pete,It follows either way with models or skins it seems, more and more are doing things for their own reasons and not releasing them.Why, reasons like this "tool" as well as the overall unappreciation by so called experts that don't produce a damn thing.

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When you ask yourself... "Why bother?" It may or may not make a difference.When everyone asks themselves "Why bother?"... you kind of have a problem......and you begin to wonder "what went wrong?"Pete Willard


http://www.trainsimstuff.com

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I guess it depends a lot on how it's used. If someone reverses one of my models to fix a mapping or detail problem, and then gives me credit in the read me, I don't have a problem, or if someone changes a low hood loco to a high hood one, IF credit is given to the original author and permission asked and if it's not specified in the read me file that modifications can't be made. Honestly, I still have the source files from Jason Dilworth's SD40-2 that was released soon after MSTS became available, he e-mailed it to me and I promised to never use it for anything except to look at it. Yes, I can certainly see how this could be misused, but on the other hand, there's nothing to stop someone from changing the read me file and taking credit for someone elses work.Personally, I guess I really don't care, I've already sent one of my projects to someone and told them to do whatever they wanted to with it.Rob

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Personally I am outraged. A lot of blood, sweat and tears goes into making these things. Now people will not only be able to swipe the entire model but parts like bogies and details they themsleves are too damn lazy to make! This kind of thing is most discouraging. Why people would download and use the tool is self-explanitory - piracy. I have so many choice words for those who would use such a tool and I am certain it will be misused.. that is the primary reason someone would even create it. It is never of innocent use and those who tell themselves that are deluding themselves. There will be countermeasures put in place but I guess nothing is ever safe... If people wanted the source files accessible they would just upload those, the fact that they are made into that file format is partly to protect them and a tool to undo that is only intended for the act of piracy. There is more to be said but there would be too many F words involved...
=|GoldenPig
visit me at www.dannybeck.com
www.mapleleaftracks.com

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"There is more to be said but there would be too many F words involved..." ahahI'm not reading all of above, but it seems this is just a repost of another program that can do .s to what ever. Key is not .S, but tsm to other, or vice versa, but only raw files, no package. I hope I just didn't say something someone else did, if I did, sorry, its 1:30 am

Andrew O

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>Key is not .S, but tsm to other, or vice versa, but only raw
>files, no package.
Yes that is exactly what is needed. A Program to convert between TSM .dst files and 3d canvas, or 3ds max files, Now THAT would be a useful utility.Cheers

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>Why people would download and use the tool is self-explanitory
> - piracy.While piracy is definitely a motivation for creating a tool like this, another big motivation is the ability to convert models created in TSM to other formats. If Abacus actually had a .3ds exporter in tsm, then I don't think there would be anywhere near as much motivation to create a .s file decompiler.I personally don't see any problem with using a decompiler for legitimate purposes. ie: if someone decompiles one of their own models. However, I would be completely outraged if someone else decompiled one of my models to scab parts they are too lazy to make themselves. This is the big problem with something like this.As for detecting copied parts, this should be a fairly simple matter. It's almost impossible for two people to produce a model with exactly the same dimensions. Whenever anyone creates something, there are always inaccuracies that creep in. I also have all the source files for my models at various stages of development. If someone else scabs a model then I can just say produce screenshots of the various stages of development and explain how they created it. If they can't then it's very suspicious. Similarly, if someone claimed that I scabbed someone else's part, then I can demonstrate how I created it.--Victorian Railfan Web Site:
http://www.railpage.org.au/vr/Australian Bulldogs for MSTS! B, S, GM & 42's now available!

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>As for detecting copied parts, this should be a fairly
>simple matter. It's almost impossible for two people to
>produce a model with exactly the same dimensions. Whenever
>anyone creates something, there are always inaccuracies that
>creep in. I made a little example to show, that you could not "fairly simple"
detect a part, that may be stolen from an other project.
The problem is that if you move a part in the hierarchy of a model (or from one model to an other) it's points will be tranformed by a rotation-translation matrix, so you will get other points.Here is a proof:1) part SUB is a child of MAIN: points ( 16
...
point ( 0.5 -0.5 -0.5 )
point ( 0.5 0.5 -0.5 )
point ( 0.5 0.5 0.5 )
point ( 0.5 -0.5 0.5 )
point ( -0.5 -0.5 -0.5 )
point ( -0.5 0.5 -0.5 )
point ( -0.5 0.5 0.5 )
point ( -0.5 -0.5 0.5 )
)
...
matrices ( 2
matrix MAIN ( 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 )
matrix SUB ( 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 -1.848221E-02 0.75 1.146075 )2) part SUB is sibling of MAIN (no movement done !)

points ( 16
...
point ( 0.4815178 0.25 0.6460745 )
point ( 0.4815178 1.25 0.6460745 )
point ( 0.4815178 1.25 1.646074 )
point ( 0.4815178 0.25 1.646074 )
point ( -0.5184822 0.25 0.6460745 )
point ( -0.5184822 1.25 0.6460745 )
point ( -0.5184822 1.25 1.646074 )
point ( -0.5184822 0.25 1.646074 )
)
... matrices ( 1
matrix MAIN ( 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 )
This is only an "model" with two simple parts, how complicated will be the case, if you use a more complex part ?!
Have a nice day
Tony

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And before the rest of you get all exercised, it should be pointed out that Tony is merely showing you how easy it would be to pirate things with a tool like this if you were unscrupulous.
FWIW, Tony has been a programmer and Software developer for over 30 years so this stuff comes natural to him....BTW just as an observation, after the flaming we took when Tony offered to use a tool like this as a licensed conversion service to the original model owners he took a tremendous amount of flaming over it...
I'm just kinda wondering where all that indignation and fire is now that some pirate has actually let it be known that he has a tool and intends to release it publicly?????
Were you all really worried or did Tony take all that $hit because he is a NALW member? Inquiring minds want to know....Chuck Schneider

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I don't know, I kind of have to agree with Chuck on this one. I remember when this topic was around a while back and people got really upset over it. Fortunately it was never release publically and became a non issue untill now.
Yes as Chuck says, where there is a will there is a way. However the people who are smart enough to build a decompiler also are probably smart enough to make sure it doesn't get out into the public so that every Tom Dick and Harry can use it to, which would no doubt lead to theft.
I can think of a couple of legitimate uses for such a tool, mainly decompiling certain thing to fully understand the concept as a lot of Kuju's documentation was very poor to the point of being non existant in many cases. A tool like this would have been usefull to see exactly what they did. That doesn't mean you take their shape and rework it, but rather understand how they made it, and then build your own. We're fortunate that the community has a lot of talent and most of that has been figured out now.
If controll is kept over who uses the tool then I suspect it would only enhance MSTS, however I can also easily see people's concerns. On the other hand I don't think Tony or anyone else intented to just put it on a website and say "go nuts people".Just my two cents worth.James.

"Well, you know boys, a nuclear reactor is a lot like a women. You just have to read the manual and press the right buttons." Homer Simpson

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James has a point. I've been around this forum almost since it started, and the one thing that really bothers me is the seemingly prevalent notion that responsible people should be denied good tools because a few irresponsible people might abuse them. That is the basest sort of prejudice. All it serves to do is to stifle creativity and and to drive a lot of the good talent out of the field.The only effective response to pirates is to expose them, giving responsible folks a chance to act responsibly by having nothing to do with them. Punishing non-offenders does nothing to address, much less to solve the problem. -Phil

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Aww c'mon Chuck spare us the NALW paranoia You're not seeing a lot of heat in this thread because we don't know who the author is (yet). The minute he is identified he will be lynched as appropriate.That being said, Tony does make a good point that a straight up numerical comparison of .s files tells you almost nothing... but I have no doubt that we have in our midst the talent to write a "shape file correlator" that would see right through simple mathematical transformations like rotations, translations and scaling and give you a pretty good idea if any perceived similarities are beyond a mere coincidence. Let's hope it never gets to the point where such a tool is needed.cheers

--
Clem

http://www.tillier.net/speedworks/index.html

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>Aww c'mon Chuck spare us the NALW paranoia
>
That's easy for you to say Clem! Remember just because you are paranoid doesn't mean that everybody is not picking on you! Chuck Schneider

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-04 AT 10:20 PM (EST)

C'mon Chuck. The first encounter ALWAYS makes the follow-up similar encounters less "special". About the flames being aimed at Tony because he was NALW, are you serious? It was not about NALW! It was about the tool.When the original s file thing showed up, it was squashed and a few emotional threads occured. (Now long lost) Tony's thread revived it again.Personally, I don't have the energy to be as outraged anymore. I'm over it. Having gone though the effort and proven my own work was stolen by somebody using an S file decompiler and then used without permission or credit given followed by the firestorm created by Tony's programming efforts... I'm beyond being upset.I'm also beyond posting beta releases... and I'm beyond sharing.I'm just done.Pete Willard


http://www.trainsimstuff.com

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Actually Pete right now I am warming up my WMD cache in case the idiot actually surfaces....As far as the NALW comment goes, Tony actually thought that since he was a member and since we were leaders and extremely aggressive in the Anti-Pirate fight people would take his offer to convert S files for the original authors ONLY (so the could migrate off of TSM) at face value.... And believe him when he said the program nor its source code would ever be released and that if you wanted his help you would send him the files and he would do the conversion for you... Poor naive Tony actually thought that other modelers would be grateful to him for his offer in helping them migrate away from TSM... I think he's still in shell shock over the $hit storm he got! Also the NAZI comments and the direct personal attacks started or intensified right around then and that was just fuel on the fire of our paranoia....So you'll have to pardon our paranoia...Chuck Schneider

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>... but I have no doubt that we have in our midst the
>talent to write a "shape file correlator" that would see
>right through simple mathematical transformations like
>rotations, translations and scaling and give you a pretty
>good idea if any perceived similarities are beyond a mere
>coincidence.Clem, this seems to be a good idea, but we could not use a "brute force" calculation routine, because we do not have the time to make all calculations to find a coincidence.Let us asume wie have a model of 1000 points (very small) in which we suppose that our part with 200 points is included !
How many choices of 200 points selected out of 1000 do we have ?It's the very huge value (let say M) M = 1000*999*998*...*801 / 1*2*3*...*200.We can give a lower bound of this number by M > 800^200 / 200^200 = 4^200 ( ^ means exponent ).Lets asume we have a computer which can do 10^12 calculations per second, than we need
M > 3*10^100 years
to do all calculations.
(if we use a computer which 1 million times faster, than we
need M > 3*10^94 years ).BTW the universe's age is about 15*10^9 years !So we need a very very intelligent pattern matching routine (with some heuristic methods from Operations Research ? ) to break down the amount of calculations dramatically !
I don't know whether we could expect a logical sequence of points in the .s file !?
Have a nice day
Tony

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Hi Tony,Indeed it could not be a brute force algorithm. I was thinking more along the lines of a tool that compares angles (which are preserved under the transformations we're talking about)... for example angles between normal vectors. You would take all pairs of normal vectors in the model (N*(N+1)/2) and build a histogram of their angles (or even just their dot products to save on expensive trigonometric operations), something a PC could handle in a matter of seconds. By comparing the results from two models against each other I believe you could distinguish even a partial match (say, a copied bogie).I'm sure the .s file experts out there would come up with even better ways. cheers

--
Clem

http://www.tillier.net/speedworks/index.html

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My eyes and brain = very intelligent pattern matching routine Pete Willard


http://www.trainsimstuff.com

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Why can't you simply decompile both models and then compare them directly in the modeling program? ie: if I think someone has copied one of my bogies, I could do this:1. decompile both my model and their model and load them into the same modeling program
2. Put their bogie and my bogie into the same model.
3. Delete all irrelevant parts.
4. Move their bogie over my bogie to see how the points line up.If the points of both bogies line up almost exactly then you could be pretty certain that they've been copied. It would be highly unlikely that two people would make something using exactly the same methods with almost identical dimensions.Each modeler has their own individual style and way of doing things. Just take a look at the different bulldog noses out there. I can easily spot the difference between my one, 3D trains', Train Artisan's, and the other freeware ones out there. While the basic shape is similar, there are differences between the style of the modelers.The big problem is if someone takes another model and uses it as a starting point instead of making their own one from scratch. If they manipulate the model into a different shape then it would be much harder to spot similarities.--Victorian Railfan Web Site:
http://www.railpage.org.au/vr/Australian Bulldogs for MSTS! B, S, GM & 42's now available!

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-10-04 AT 02:28 PM (EST)

>Why can't you simply decompile both models and then compare
>them directly in the modeling program? ie: if I think
>someone has copied one of my bogies, I could do this:
>
>1. decompile both my model and their model and load them
>into the same modeling program
>2. Put their bogie and my bogie into the same model.
>3. Delete all irrelevant parts.
>4. Move their bogie over my bogie to see how the points line
>up.
>
Sure you can do this, but it is a lot of manual work. I'm lazy and
so I wouldn't do it .You see it will not be very easy to prove that two parts are identical.BTW Pete's method with his "brain and eyes" will be the best But I think it would be nice, if we could calculate some "invariants" of each model to compare them in an easy manner.
I hope we will find a solution.
Clem's idea with relationships between pairs of points may be a good starting point.The texture mapping may also be a candidate of inspection, because this will be nearly invariant (all points have coordinates between 0 and 1 ) and a thief will not remap all stolen parts ( this would be a big job !).
If you take a look on the models constructed in the US and i.e. in Germany you will see that the US guys use minor texture files as the Germans. I think the "US method" will be better to control, because a mapping between i.e.( 0.123 0.512 ) to ( 0.467 0.877 ) is better to recognize than a total mapping ( 0 0 ) ( 1 1 ) (the whole texture ).Let us make a "brainstorming" to find a way to build a program that does most of the work .
Have a nice day
Tony

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It is out, it is an plugin for 3D Studio Max, won't work with GMAX. Also available for two other 3d programs I've never heard of: Cinema 4D and Milkshake 3D. It's hosted on a German site, and unless you speak German, you would probably never find it.Rob

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The fact that the tool is recirculating again is what upsets me, and that it has now been brought back to the attention of those who may not have previously known about it. To me, honestly, the tool is pure evil. Mainly because I am model maker... just the thought of it offends me to the very core. heh heh... seriously though, things like this come with the territory, it's the nature of the digital beast. The fact remains, it's out there.. circulating and will eventually catch someone in the hind quarters. It just takes a few people to get their little mittens on it and then it spreads like a virus... was that too dramamtic? heh heh heh.Anyway, in the words of the Miracle Max - "Thank you so much for brining up that painful memory. While you're at it why don't you just give me a paper cut and poor lemon juice on it!"tee hee!
=|GoldenPig
visit me at www.dannybeck.com
www.mapleleaftracks.com

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-10-04 AT 07:07 PM (EST)

I can understand why modellers have strong feelings about this type of thing, but some of the logic some of these folks are using in their arguments is quite flawed. Some people seem to think that this tool is in itself purely bad, and that it should be banned or somehow kept from other hobbyists because certainly they will become a victim of piracy. This kind of flawed logic is the same type of thinking that has been used to justify failed social policies such as excessive gun control and alcohol prohibition. Here's the kind of thinking I'm talking about: An inanimate object such as this .s file tool, a gun, a car, a knife, or practically anything else is presumed to be in itself inherintly evil because someone with malicious or irresponsible intent used it for an evil purpose. Right away, the fallacy is evident. Inanimate objects, of course, are morally neutral, neither good nor bad. It takes a PERSON who has an evil intent to use the object to commit an evil ACTION. The second part of the fallacy is that instead of punishing those PERSONS who commit evil actions, those who think like this simply want the OBJECT itself banned or limited. Here's an example. Every year, countless dollars worth of music, computer software, etc. are pirated. Much of this is done by simply copying CDs using a CD-RW burner drive. Using this logic, none of us should have CD burners because they are used to pirate. This case with the .s file tool is the exact same type of situation, in that, yes it can be used by pirates, but that is not its only purpose, and the fact it can be used for bad purposes doesn't justify banning it. Here's something else for people to think about. I wonder if any of the people who loudly complain about this program have ever copied a music CD or game for a friend, shared MP3s illegally, etc.? If so, they are just as much of a pirate as any other pirate. On top of that, they are also hypocrites. Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. I'm sure I'll get flamed for saying this, but I felt a different perspective needed to be heard because no has mentioned it before. Just some things to think about.Grizzly

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Well said, Grizzly.Mike Adams

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>I can understand why modellers have strong feelings about
>this type of thing, but some of the logic some of these
>folks are using in their arguments is quite flawed. Some
>people seem to think that this tool is in itself purely bad,
>and that it should be banned or somehow kept from other
>hobbyists because certainly they will become a victim of
>piracy. This kind of flawed logic is the same type of
>thinking that has been used to justify failed social
>policies such as excessive gun control and alcohol
>prohibition. Here's the kind of thinking I'm talking about:
>An inanimate object such as this .s file tool, a gun, a car,
>a knife, or practically anything else is presumed to be in
>itself inherintly evil because someone with malicious or
>irresponsible intent used it for an evil purpose. Right
>away, the fallacy is evident. Inanimate objects, of course,
>are morally neutral, neither good nor bad. It takes a PERSON
>who has an evil intent to use the object to commit an evil
>ACTION. The second part of the fallacy is that instead of
>punishing those PERSONS who commit evil actions, those who
>think like this simply want the OBJECT itself banned or
>limited. Here's an example. Every year, countless dollars
>worth of music, computer software, etc. are pirated. Much of
>this is done by simply copying CDs using a CD-RW burner
>drive. Using this logic, none of us should have CD burners
>because they are used to pirate. This case with the .s file
>tool is the exact same type of situation, in that, yes it
>can be used by pirates, but that is not its only purpose,
>and the fact it can be used for bad purposes doesn't justify
>banning it. Here's something else for people to think about.
>I wonder if any of the people who loudly complain about this
>program have ever copied a music CD or game for a friend,
>shared MP3s illegally, etc.? If so, they are just as much of
>a pirate as any other pirate. On top of that, they are also
>hypocrites. Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw
>stones. I'm sure I'll get flamed for saying this, but I felt
>a different perspective needed to be heard because no has
>mentioned it before. Just some things to think about.
>
>Grizzly
>
>
You've really got to ask yourself here, Why would a person want to use a tool that converts an .s file back into a model's native format in the first place ?
Surely not the original creator of the model as they would already have the original files to make any alterations. If people want to know how a model is built then learn how to do it and ask questions along the way. There are no shortcuts in creating 3D models..you must do the hard yards and learn from each mistake and step.The only merits of a recompile tool would be if it were used within the confines of a group to convert between a native model's orginal formats from say .dst to .3ds or .3dc in order to complete the model ready for release under a group banner. An awful lot of effort, UNPAID TIME and expertise go
into making models that are predominatly freeware and for somebody to go and use a freely available tool to pull apart another persons work and possibly claim as their own is simply an act of malice as well as intellectual theft.
There are no good points at all to this tool in this respect and I fear this will cost the community many modellers, who chose to leave because of it.

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Here's some uses I was thinking of:-It's a way to "take a model apart" to "see how it goes together" or "what makes it tick". Many people can accelerate their learning curve this way. It's akin to dissecting a frog or taking apart an old engine.-People could use it to modify an existing model for their own PERSONAL use.-And of course, it's original intent, moving files between different modelling programs.These all seem legit to me. Just as a side thought, TGATool has been available for a long time. As most people know, it converts any MSTS texture (ace) into a format (bmp or tga) that anyone with a graphics program can edit. Why is there no outcry of these proportions about it?Grizzly

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-10-04 AT 10:50 PM (EST)

>Here's some uses I was thinking of:
>
>-It's a way to "take a model apart" to "see how it goes
>together" or "what makes it tick". Many people can
>accelerate their learning curve this way. It's akin to
>dissecting a frog or taking apart an old engine.
A fair enough analogy, but most people can already do this with the modeller's PERMISSION at the moment providing the orginal creator will provide the source files.>-People could use it to modify an existing model for their
>own PERSONAL use. Yes they could do that as long as they did not release it to the general public. I'm sure this happens now with various re-paints.>-And of course, it's original intent, moving files between
>different modelling programs. Again with the PERMISSSION of the model's creator.>These all seem legit to me. Just as a side thought, TGATool
>has been available for a long time. As most people know, it
>converts any MSTS texture (ace) into a format (bmp or tga)
>that anyone with a graphics program can edit. Why is there
>no outcry of these proportions about it? Because with TGATool all you are doing is altering the outward skin of the model, not changing it's original physical structure or mapping of surface textures. Even repainters acknowledge the original creator's efforts in making the model and/or its textures when done with permission. The crux of the matter here is the fact that such a tool allows people to steal a model without acknowledgement and re-brand it as their own. Even with a very skilled repainter using TGATool, the basic underlying physical model is the same.
>Grizzly
>
>
>

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>Because with TGATool all you are doing is altering the
>outward skin of the model, not changing it's original
>physical structure or mapping of surface textures. Even
>repainters acknowledge the original creator's efforts in
>making the model and/or its textures when done with
>permission. The crux of the matter here is the fact that
>such a tool allows people to steal a model without
>acknowledgement and re-brand it as their own. Even with a
>very skilled repainter using TGATool, the basic underlying
>physical model is the same.
>
>
>>Grizzly
>>
>>
>> Yes, but how many people use TGA tool to reskin a model without the author's permission. Even though they acknowledge the original work is someone else's, the fact that they didn't get permission means they shouldn't be doing it. Those of us who have been around for a while know this happens and we've all seen post's in the forums from people saying "hey you stole my texture". Yet even though this happens we don't object to the fact that TGA tool gives people the power to steal textures without having the original BMP's or Alpha's.
Which brings us back to the flip side of the coin, why would the decompiler be any different. If someone takes a models, touches it up or re-works it slightly and then re-releases it and acknowledges the original authors work, it would be no different than what a lot of people are doing with TGA tool an most people don't object too.
As has already been pointed out there are legitimate reasons you would want to examine a model and see it's construction, as a learning tool example. Though I do also see why it's a concern for people and I for one am not too happy when someone does something without my permission but it's not nearly as upsetting as when it's blatantly copied.James.

"Well, you know boys, a nuclear reactor is a lot like a women. You just have to read the manual and press the right buttons." Homer Simpson

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This decompiler has already caused some of us here at 3DTS many problems which has already resulted in higher prices for our products so that we can retain the services of a good legal firm here and abroad in Europe..and we will deal with the pirates soon enough Best regards,
Brad Brownwww.3DTrainStuff.com

Check out our Cajon Pass & Tehachapi Pass Routes..also Donner Pass, the Sierra Crossing route is coming soon..

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Good Points:You can convert finished models to .3ds format ...
But it would be be better if the editors (TSM GMAX 3DCanvas ...) themselves could do thad ... :SBad points: ... I prefer not to give any Ideas of easy P*R*CY to anyone ...

SérgioMP
http://www.cpvirtual.org
http://msts.no.sapo.pt

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-11-04 AT 10:54 PM (EST)

>Good Points:
>
>You can convert finished models to .3ds format ...
>But it would be be better if the editors (TSM GMAX 3DCanvas
>...) themselves could do thad ... :S With 3D Canvas you can convert any model into .3ds format. This has been a feature of the program since day one.

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3D Canvas' Multiple import and export options...When purchased, I had planned on doing collaborations... and though I made the mistake of joining a group that either doesn't model or uses TSM, the reasoning is sound. I have been able to save MY work as a 3DS and then Import it into GMAX to be saved as a TRAINZ object. Flexibility is nice, and for only a few bucks more.It's one of the reasons I prefered 3Dcanvas over TSM. What if I wanted to use GMAX or 3ds Max someday... With Canvas, the problem is solved.A lot of people seem to be using TSM's severe limitations as an excuse for unethical behavior. Pete Willard


http://www.trainsimstuff.com

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>
>A lot of people seem to be using TSM's severe limitations as
>an excuse for unethical behavior.
>If someone uses a decompiler only for decompiling their own models and converting them into another format, this is perfectly ethical and would be quite helpful to people using TSM.However, this tool would no doubt be used for piracy. Therefore, I think that it would be far better if the tool didn't exist and there was a way to directly convert the dst file into another format. --Victorian Railfan Web Site:
http://www.railpage.org.au/vr/Australian Bulldogs for MSTS! B, S, GM & 42's now available!

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-12-04 AT 05:34 PM (EST)

>A lot of people seem to be using TSM's severe limitations as
>an excuse for unethical behavior. Only three questions ...
Is it unethical to use published descriptions of some format ?
Is it ethical to crack formats which are not published (i.e. .ace format ) ?
Who decides what is (un)ethical ? (perhaps the pope )
Have a nice day
Tony

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>Who decides what is (un)ethical ? (perhaps the pope )
>Not for us Lutherans Tony!
Chuck Schneider

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There is no right or wrong in a godless country. We either live with what we don't like or we craw in a cave.One could mark a shape in a way no one would know but we could not tell anyone, you tell one they tell two and they tell four and so on. Nothing is unbreakable but much can be unnoticed.

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-04 AT 00:29 AM (EST)

Personally, I'd like to be able to obtain that little lovely. Don't get me wrong; I dare not attempt piracy by publicly releasing modified work of others without the proper permission. However, such a tool is quite useful as some say for learning how to do 3d modelling. Personally, if nothing else, I'd like to get a hold of the plugin just so that I could remodel the Kuju craptastic stations on the Northeast Corridor. AMTRAK STATIONS DON'T HAVE FRICKIN' LOW-LEVEL PLATFORMS!!!
It's a pity that the creator's site is down... -_-;;

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Or maybe you could just download NECv4?

Clayton

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I'm talking about NEC v4.0. -_-;; Since Vince didn't redo any of the actual station models, all Amtrak and Metro stations still have their Kuju craptastic low-level platforms.I still think that a lot of good could be done with this ".S file Shape Importer."

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>I'm talking about NEC v4.0. -_-;; Since Vince didn't redo
>any of the actual station models, all Amtrak and Metro
>stations still have their Kuju craptastic low-level
>platforms.
>
>I still think that a lot of good could be done with this ".S
>file Shape Importer." You don't need it to alter the dimensions of a model such as a platform.
Use Shape file manager.http://www.railpage.org.au/steam4me/trainsim/tutorials/sfm_faq.htmlor make'em yourself

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>>I'm talking about NEC v4.0. -_-;; Since Vince didn't redo
>>any of the actual station models, all Amtrak and Metro
>>stations still have their Kuju craptastic low-level
>>platforms.
>>
>>I still think that a lot of good could be done with this ".S
>>file Shape Importer."
>
>You don't need it to alter the dimensions of a model such as
>a platform.
>Use Shape file
>manager.http://www.railpage.org.au/steam4me/trainsim/tutorials/sfm_faq.html There are two problems with Shape File Manager in this case:
1. I only want to modify the platform height, not the canopy and everything else with that platform.
2. The textures will become distorted on whatever platform I do.>or make'em yourself Fair enough...although, I don't suppose that you would have any technical drawings of Philadelphia 30th Street Station, Wilmington, Baltimore Penn Station, New Carrollton, and Washington Union Station lying around, would you? I sure don't, let alone a clue as to where to get them.I'm having a hard enough time trying to model some varieties of Pennsylvania Railroad catenary with an HO scale reference (that I question the accuracy of). If I attempt to model any complex Amtrak station, I'll probably screw it up really badly, like sizing it for Hitler's proposed 3-meter-gauge super railway or something. =P

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We all have to start somewhere. Sure you'll make mistakes along the way, but you'll learn from them. The main point is to give it a go and you might suprise yourself with what you can do with some effort.

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