UP 4-12-2 9000

Are any of these being made for MSTS?I want to do one. I have plenty of material, as my dad has co-authored two books on them called the Union Pacific Type, by William Kratvill and John Bush.I have drawings in my basement so...I have LOTS of stuff on them. And I even have recordings of the 9056 in Lincoln Nebraska making up its train, then leaving town. So we're good on sound.But I would DEFINETLY need help on the modeling. These things had alot of arc in the boiler above the firebox and I dont know how to do that. I dont have the slightest idea. And it would also be hard to animate.NALW, do you want to make one with me? Kevin Bush,

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon Mon Freunds!

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RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, Jonatan, Nov-26-03, 09:15 AM, (1) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, scshull119, Nov-26-03, 10:42 PM, (2) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, CumbresEngineer, Nov-26-03, 10:49 PM, (3) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, K36487, Nov-26-03, 11:40 PM, (4) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, Jonatan, Nov-27-03, 06:59 AM, (5) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, CumbresEngineer, Nov-27-03, 06:18 PM, (6) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, plainsman, Nov-27-03, 06:48 PM, (7) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, Idahojeff, Nov-27-03, 11:44 PM, (8) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, Jonatan, Nov-28-03, 05:00 AM, (9) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, deejay1020, Dec-07-03, 10:43 PM, (27) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, Boilerbuster, Nov-29-03, 06:04 PM, (10) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, Jonatan, Nov-30-03, 12:09 PM, (11) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, CumbresEngineer, Nov-30-03, 09:47 PM, (12) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, Jonatan, Dec-01-03, 05:22 AM, (13) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, CumbresEngineer, Dec-01-03, 06:05 PM, (14) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, Boilerbuster, Dec-02-03, 00:39 AM, (15) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, CumbresEngineer, Dec-02-03, 08:12 AM, (16) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, Boilerbuster, Dec-02-03, 05:11 PM, (17) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, CumbresEngineer, Dec-02-03, 05:34 PM, (18) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, Jonatan, Dec-02-03, 05:38 PM, (19) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, Boilerbuster, Dec-02-03, 06:13 PM, (20) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, CumbresEngineer, Dec-04-03, 04:51 PM, (21) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, Jonatan, Dec-04-03, 04:58 PM, (22) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, plainsman, Dec-04-03, 05:08 PM, (23) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, CumbresEngineer, Dec-04-03, 11:57 PM, (24) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, CumbresEngineer, Dec-07-03, 09:27 PM, (25) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, Idahojeff, Dec-07-03, 10:03 PM, (26) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, CumbresEngineer, Dec-08-03, 08:32 AM, (28) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, Jonatan, Dec-08-03, 08:57 AM, (29) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, Xacto, Dec-08-03, 12:21 PM, (30) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, CumbresEngineer, Dec-08-03, 05:42 PM, (31) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, plainsman, Dec-08-03, 07:55 PM, (32) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, TheCowboy, Dec-28-03, 10:02 PM, (33) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, CumbresEngineer, Dec-29-03, 09:20 AM, (34) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, plainsman, Dec-29-03, 11:45 AM, (35) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, CumbresEngineer, Dec-29-03, 02:42 PM, (36) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, plainsman, Dec-29-03, 03:03 PM, (37) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, TheCowboy, Dec-29-03, 03:38 PM, (38) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, Jonatan, Dec-29-03, 04:10 PM, (39) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, CumbresEngineer, Dec-29-03, 09:42 PM, (40) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, plainsman, Dec-30-03, 01:01 AM, (41) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, msavianney, Dec-30-03, 07:36 AM, (42) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, CumbresEngineer, Dec-30-03, 01:55 PM, (44) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, Stumbl, Dec-30-03, 03:04 PM, (46) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, msavianney, Jan-01-04, 04:00 AM, (55) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, CumbresEngineer, Dec-30-03, 01:47 PM, (43) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, CumbresEngineer, Dec-30-03, 01:57 PM, (45) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, plainsman, Dec-30-03, 06:30 PM, (48) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, CumbresEngineer, Dec-31-03, 04:37 PM, (52) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, robertlearmont, Dec-30-03, 05:28 PM, (47) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, plainsman, Dec-30-03, 06:35 PM, (49) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, CumbresEngineer, Dec-30-03, 07:20 PM, (51) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, CumbresEngineer, Dec-30-03, 07:17 PM, (50) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, ssw, Jan-01-04, 02:21 AM, (53) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, CumbresEngineer, Jan-01-04, 02:42 AM, (54) RE: UP 4-12-2 9000, Jonatan, Jan-01-04, 04:41 AM, (56)

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-26-03 AT 09:16 AM (EST)

I Would just love to have one of those BIG@$$ engines! They're so cool! I could edit the sounds for you. But that's about it.... maybe do a cab.But I hope you can get help in making one, it would be a great addition to the sim. /JonatanSteam rules!

Never trust computers. If you do, they will betray you.Keep those "diseasels" away from me!

My E-mail jonatan.gronoset@telia.com

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A 4-12-2 would be fun to run in MSTS. Aside from narrow gauge, UP steamers are probably my favorites. 9000 is still exists in LA, so maybe you could get photo textures and a cabview from it. Sam Shull

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-26-03 AT 11:39 PM (EST)

Believe me, ive already got textures...besides, I live in Nebraska, about 3000 miles from the 9000...all that for a stupid ass sim!HA!Kevin Bush,

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon Mon Freunds!

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Nice Kev! It would be nice to see one of those locos too...
Future Cumbres & Toltec or Durango & Silverton Engineer. Go to my informative K-36 page:
http://www.freewebs.com/drgwk36 Visit the Pheasant Hill Railroad's (My G-scale) official site!
http://www.freewebs.com/phrrVisit the Red Mountain Gorge Narrow Gauge R.R.'s official
site:
http://groups.msn.com/MSTSNarrowGauge/narrowgaugerouteformsts.msnw

*Proud to be a "Friend" of the Cumbres & Toltec.*

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-27-03 AT 06:59 AM (EST)

Someone more willing to help? I have allready offerd to do sound and possibly the cab./JonatanSteam rules!

Never trust computers. If you do, they will betray you.Keep those "diseasels" away from me!

My E-mail jonatan.gronoset@telia.com

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Ohh come on! Doesn't anyone want to give it a shot? I WILL help you! Belive it or not I do have some skills in TSM, but I dont know how to animate or make good cabs or do sounds. I have all the info in the world one would need. I have a blue print of an original erection drawing of one in my basement that is about 7 feet long. Its huge.My dad is the one who would tell us the most stuff. We could fine it down to one particular engine on a particular day in a particular year if we wanted to! It will be a GREAT engine to run, really! It would be a blast! Not only to run, but to just hear!http://www.northeast.railfan.net/up9000.html Go to that link to see pics of almost every 9000 built for UP.
PLEASE HELP ME!!
It would be to your benefit. HA!Kevin Bush,

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon Mon Freunds!

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Hi,
I had posted a suggestion of these about a year ago. I would be happy to work on the physics for one. I would mention that a lot of folks are out of pocket for the weekend, don't be discouraged by the response yet. I think these will work under the constraints of thew sim, should perform much closer to prototype than the articulateds. Thanks again for your interest in this project!!
Bob Boudoin

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My e-mail is in my profile. A VERY worthy project! Send me some scale drawings and I'll get started straight away. I've started working in 3DCancvas and am getting a pretty good feel for it. Just need a good project to work on, this should be "it". Jeff

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-28-03 AT 05:04 AM (EST)

Oh yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!!! Just send the sounds to me and I'll fix a good whistle and bell loop for ya to play with, maybe even do the chuffs. But someone else will get to do the. sms file diting."It" is finally happening! /JonatanSteam rules!

Never trust computers. If you do, they will betray you.Keep those "diseasels" away from me!

My E-mail jonatan.gronoset@telia.com

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If you don't mind waiting for a bit I could step in and do the audio for you. I have a lot of stuff on my plate and a new career change coming early 2004. It would be a while, but then again, it would take some time to get the model done and all. Regards,
Dan Zollner - 3DTrains/Facing Point Media
http://www.3dtrains.com

Pro Series Geeps

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You guys are so cool thanks for starting on this project.
another Great Steam Engine....
Take your time and dont rush it as I am not in a hurry to see it thought. the more time it takes the better it is.
Don Pottorff
Long Live the Steam
www.vmf323.com
www.fiero.nl

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-30-03 AT 12:10 PM (EST)

Yah. We won't hurry with it. But we wellcome anyone who wants to help. /JonatanSteam rules!

Never trust computers. If you do, they will betray you.Keep those "diseasels" away from me!

My E-mail jonatan.gronoset@telia.com

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Indeed!
Kevin Bush,

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon Mon Freunds!

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So, anyone started on the model yet?/JonatanSteam rules!

Never trust computers. If you do, they will betray you.Keep those "diseasels" away from me!

My E-mail jonatan.gronoset@telia.com

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I cant find his freakin email, this is starting to piss me off!The email button wont work in his profile, so I sent him a private message, and no answer yet...so what the hell?
Kevin Bush,

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon Mon Freunds!

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I might be able to do some paint work if nessesory wich would be some time down the line. It will give me some time to make a good matt to base the paint work from.
I have a simular font that could be used on the letters and numbers that I have in My paint program.
Question is who will get the agreement from Union Pacific to do this Locomotive.
Don Pottorff
Long Live the Steam
www.vmf323.com
www.fiero.nl

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Are you kidding me about getting an agreement from UP? UP doesn't even own the 9000 now.
Kevin Bush,

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon Mon Freunds!

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Ya but they do still own the name and Hearld. you have to have premission to use both.Don Pottorff
Long Live the Steam
www.vmf323.com
www.fiero.nl

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We are going to have a very hard time making our model like this one for TRAINZ...http://myweb.cableone.net/permstev/union_pacific_9000.htmWith a little luck, he will let us use those color photos of the 9000, I really wanted to do something other than THE 9000 itself, like a "bald faced nine" with double walscherts gear. Or the 9056, or some odd engine. One with Internal throttle valve and linkage, and one with front end throttle arrangement. I dont know, we'll just have to see. It seems to me that this sim is pretty much all about textures, but it seems like the TRAINZ guys can do alot more for detail stuff.Like I said, we'll see.Kevin Bush,

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon Mon Freunds!

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-02-03 AT 06:01 PM (EST)

*looks at the pictures* Looks like I have to get Trainz then..... ALL the good stuff is done for it! *cries* *slams fist on the table* We have to make ours better!/JonatanSteam rules!

Never trust computers. If you do, they will betray you.Keep those "diseasels" away from me!

My E-mail jonatan.gronoset@telia.com

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Boy I would love to have that tender made at least. I could finish my UP Pacific Repaint as it uses that very Tender, and i have yet to find a good one to use for the tender that I can put writing on.Don Pottorff
Long Live the Steam
www.vmf323.com
www.fiero.nl

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-04-03 AT 04:52 PM (EST)

This project is goin' NO WHERE! I dont know what he wants for measurements yet. I certainly have plenty of info for a 9000, more than you guys can imagine, but this project is a no-go I would say...Too bad.Kevin Bush,

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon Mon Freunds!

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-04-03 AT 05:02 PM (EST)

I wish SOMEONE could participate in building the model! Kevin's got all the info anyone could wish for, I can do the sounds and even the cab, and Don could do the paintwork. But a modeler who builds it is needed before anyone else of us can take part in it.C'mon people, are we gonna stand here while the Trainz folk pump out all the good stuff? I could buy Trainz just for that model but I won't as I don't understand it and that I am wholy confident in MSTS.I don't want to see such a good MSTS project get flushed town the crapper as many other good ones have been.
I would build one myself but earlier tries with gmax and 3D canvas has me stumped./JonatanSteam rules!

Never trust computers. If you do, they will betray you.Keep those "diseasels" away from me!

My E-mail jonatan.gronoset@telia.com

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Hi Kevin,
You might want to be a little more patient. Many folks have other things they have to do during the week, and really only have limited time on weekends to actually do this kind of work. You will see a lot of folks expecting designers to finish a project in a week or two, when in reality, a month or two is a quick turnaround on a project for most folks with a life outside this hobby. I think this still has possibilities, but I expected it to take a while, probably longer than usual, as the model has a lot of detail work, the designer hasn't done a lot of models, and everyone is probably involved in other projects, as well as jobs, school, holidays, families ect. Just give it time, the physics alone will take a considerable time to get right, even with all your data. Also, someone is going to have to get a UP license to do this and that may take a few days as well. I would say a 3 month target would be realistic.
Bob

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Yeah, I too have a job, and school to attend during the week. Shoot, im at school from 7:30 to 3:05 everyday of the week, except weekends of course. But im in some of the lower classes and they dont usually hand out homework, so I have like 3 times less homework than the average kid on here does.Steam IS my life and always will be...Im headin' for Chama in the Summer of 2005 to hireout as a firemen. I have already met two of the engineers there, and all the shop guys know I want to work there.
You'll see me there doing something in the yard or along the line someday soon, maybe even running!! I have even started studying my dads books printed in the 30's and 40's all on steam and EVERYTHING you could possibly want to know about. He has 3 books on the Detroit Model B Mechanical Lubricator for example! I study steam more than school work! That may seem like a bad thing, but atleast im following my dreams, money will follow.Kevin Bush,

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon Mon Freunds!

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Well, I say forget this. He hasn't responded to email for awhile now. I dont know whats going on.I dont even care anymore really.Kevin Bush,

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon Mon Freunds!

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I just responded to an email from your address, your Dad perhaps? Anyway, I'm moving over to gmax for the time being, (some have complained of it's complexity but, the interface actually makes sense to me). I've become fairly fluent in the ways of TSM but, I just am not satisfied with the end result. After doing some tutorials and perusing the help files, I have actually become accustommed to it, and see several advantages in it's features. Once I have the hard copies of the erection drawings in hand, work WILL commence immediatley Jeff.

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Well, ok then, we will see if we can copy one for you. We will NOT send you the orig's.Sounds good.Kevin Bush,

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon Mon Freunds!

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-08-03 AT 08:57 AM (EST)

I can't wait to do the sound editing, that must be fun! Good luck!/JonatanSteam rules!

Never trust computers. If you do, they will betray you.Keep those "diseasels" away from me!

My E-mail jonatan.gronoset@telia.com

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I have HO scale drawings of this loco including cross sections at all 6 drivers. I can scan them and send them to whoever needs them. Email at sxdesigns@rcn.com

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I wouldn't worry about that Xacto. My dad has more drawings and books on them than you would believe. He co-authored two books on them too so...Thanks anyway sir.Kevin Bush,

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon Mon Freunds!

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Kevin,
You have a message.

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KevinI have talked to your dad a couple of times about the UP 9000 and he had mentioned that you were into the "train-sim" stuff. I figured you were a MSTS person because I personally know nearly all the narrow gauge guys from TRS and he said you had created some narrow gauge stuff. Anyway, I thought maybe you would be interested in TRS. Unfortunatly, IMO, there is no comparison right now, TRS really has a leg up on MSTS. I have heard rumors of MSTS2 being delayed, but that is all. I will tell you that there are still lots of bugs with TRS, but they have released one patch already that takes care of some of them and 2 more patches are in the works. The AI drivers are pretty facinating and route building is a snap. I could never do anything with MSTS stuff so I gave up. If you ever change your mind, and want to give TRS a chance, let me know and I will send you the beta for a test drive. I am planning on roughing up the textures and weathering them and making a couple of more road numbers for the 9000 and probably releasing 4 differnent road numbers. I do want one of them to be the 9000 in honor of it being last one left. I even thought of doing a bald face, but then I thought about all the extra work in trying to figure out the animation and decided its not worth it. I did get the gresly gear animated properly and I must say it looks pretty fine in motion. I would be interested in the sounds that you have for one of the 9000s, is there any chance of getting a copy from you or your dad. That is one of 2 things that is holding this project up from being finished. Look foward to hearing from you.
Shane

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Hi Shane,Actually, I picked up a copy of Trainz two days ago and was somewhat disappointed, but once I figure it out, I think I will like it better.I downloaded a ton of Narrow Gauge stuff off the internet from a guys site, but cant even make them move, im doing everything, releasing the brakes the gear is in full forward...but it still wont move.I dont know, its frustrating. The physics on the Big Boy seem to be way off. With the reverse quadrant in the corner and wide open, it accelerates no faster than if you just opened it a little bit.I want to get your 9000, only if it would let me login to Trainz. I did all of the registration stuff, but it says someone already has my email address, and im not interested in setting up a new email address just to get into that download area for Trainz.I'll see what I can do for sounds. I think we still have your email address.Kevin Bush,

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon Mon Freunds!

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Hi Kevin,
Where are we on this. I would like to get enough info to start working on the physics, but I did not get any info from anyone? Let me know if you still want to pursue this as I would like to get a physics model out. If the physics are posted, who knows, maybe a model will follow? It has worked on some other things, you never know?
Bob

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Well, that guy in Idaho hasn't replied to a single email since this whole thing started, I canned the idea A LONG time ago...Kevin Bush,

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon Mon Freunds!

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Hi Kevin,
If you would send or post some info, I will do a physics model. That might get someone (maybe someone different??) to start a visual model?
Bob

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KevinI sent you a regular email, hope you get it. If not let me know. Shane

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Is this back on track?/JonatanSteam rules!

Never trust computers. If you do, they will betray you.Keep those "diseasels" away from me!

My E-mail jonatan.gronoset@telia.com

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Don't get your hopes up Jonatan!Kevin Bush,

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon Mon Freunds!

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-30-03 AT 01:02 AM (EST)

Hi Kevin,
I guess I don't get the reason for the attitude??? I think folks will do this if you do your part. You have the data, you can get it rolling. I am not trying to be obnoxious, but this is making progress if you don't mess it up with sarcastic remarks.
Bob
BTW Be Happy, we won!!

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I was about to put my hand up and offer to help in the building part until I read the post complaining and giving up after a couple of days without replies. I've built a number of complicated steam locos in TSM and this would have been well within my capabilities, but there you go. Sorry.Cheers,
Matt Austin

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Team-ALCO
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oh, well, thats too bad I guess. It is sort of interesting, as soon as I say we're done with this, and I don't care about it anymore, and all this, you guys start talking.Maybe it just seems like that I don't know.And what attitude, how do you know what context I was typing, to tell you the truth, I was not saying that sarcastically at all, I was saying to Jonatan to forget it basically.Im movin' on. Sometimes this train sim stuff goes too far. I know its "all you guys have" but it isn't for me. Sometimes I get to mess with the real stuff, and this simulator cannot replace that. Is that understandable? Or did I lose you guys?Thanks for the help, but no thanks.Kevin Bush,

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon Mon Freunds!

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you seem a strange little child...if you were not TRYING to be sarcastic , then you are incredibly obtuse.

"I do what my Rice Krispies tell me to do"

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Actually you haven't lost us. As one who gets to 'mess around with the real stuff' on a frequent basis, I realise that a knowledge of railway operations can enable those who produce models for the greater MSTS community to make more realistic models for those who will never get that opportunity. It isn't a case of one or the other, but one complementing the other. I only weighed in after you dropped it because that was the first time I read the thread.Cheers,
Matt

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Team-ALCO
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Who won?Kevin Bush,

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon Mon Freunds!

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Who won, in reply to plainsman.Kevin Bush,

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon Mon Freunds!

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Nebraska won the Alamo Bowl.
I guess I am more dissappointed than you that this project is suffering, as I had proposed it long before you brought it up again, and I will miss the opportunity to get the info and data you could have added to make it that much more enjoyable.
I understand many have other activities in their lives, the very reason I asked for your patience as the season will keep many folks involved with family and other commitments. As I said before, it would not be unreasonable for a project like this to take 6 months to get done right, particularly since most will only be doing things in their spare time.
I would still like to do the physics, and see if that does not attract some modeling interest. If you would still consider posting as much spec data and info that you have, it would greatly help the physics project.
Bob

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I guess im just lazy, as all the drawings and stuff are all tucked away in the basement. My dad could think of some stuff off the top of his head probably. But I dont know what the hell you need for the Physics. I dont know anything about how that all works in the sim. I just know what it means.
To tell you the truth, unless "physics data" is hard to come by, and you guys think I am a good source for them and you just cant do it without me, I think you can do it on your own. Cause I cant texture, I can model, but not like most of you guys can...etc. I can just run em'. Maybe we should wait for MSTS 2 and see what happens ehh? Maybe more for modeling will be available, and we will have more options.Kevin Bush,

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon Mon Freunds!

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I think I heard somewhere the 9000's could derail easily and had a derailment problem like the SDP40's.

Robert

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My information suggests the design was very successful, and may have moved more tonnage than any other locomotive design in the Great Plains. Remember, the UP track in it's prime territory is quite easy to negotiate, very high speed with very gentle curves, following the Platte River valley.
Bob

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-30-03 AT 07:33 PM (EST)

Yes, because of the amount of drivers they had, and the shear amount of steel they had on the ground, they had lots of tourque. Another thing that provides tourque is to move the side rods farther and farther out from the center of the axle. But they could not do this with the 9000's if they wanted speed. So they decided they wanted an engine with lots of "friction surfaces" and could start trains easier, but could run at higher speeds. The UP got what they wanted too.Kevin Bush,

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon Mon Freunds!

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Sometimes they were. But they didn't have really tight curves in steam days. The main lines on the UP, like Sherman for example, used to have long, sweeping, high speed curves, and the whole road had to be modified for the 9's.The rear axle derailed most often I would say. It was more prone to than the others. Usually through turnouts. They were simply the largest and longest rigid locomotive ever built. Kevin Bush,

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon Mon Freunds!

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The soviets built a 4-14-4. IIRC, it was a dismal failure.

Bradley Linda
Waco, Texas
I Support MSTS IRC Chat. http://chat.dtimsts.vze.com
Member #3, Trainorders Refugee Association - http://evans.railfan.net/TORA.htm

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Yep, and they did it after seeing our 4-12-2's! atleast thats what ive heard. Kevin Bush,

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon Mon Freunds!

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Yup, the "Russian Giant" derailed a soon as it came to the slightest curve. It was built to compete with a Garrat engine on a rivaling line, the engine was meant for coal haulage./JonatanSteam rules!

Never trust computers. If you do, they will betray you.Keep those "diseasels" away from me!

My E-mail jonatan.gronoset@telia.com

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