Problem making a pilot in 3D Canvas

LAST EDITED ON Oct-08-03 AT 02:56 PM (EDT)

Made a pilot and it looks great before texturing , but not so good after - it bulges on the left and is recessed on the right. See attached screen shot.The front has two faces and each face is made of two Polys with the seam running from top left to bottom right. This juncture causes the texture to bulge on the left face and to be recessed on the right. Had the same problem with TSM and never did figure out what to do about it.Is there a way to make these faces appear flatter? I assume the faces need to be made from more Polys (never thought I would want to be adding more) but how can I do that? Use the surface tool or twist - arg?If fixing this is beyond my ability, is there a way to reverse the poly seam direction? If the right Poly seam ran from bottom left to top right the two sides would at least be symmetrical even it they were still bulged..Thanks for any help. Bill

Modeling the Uintah NG Railway, with it’s 7.5 % grade, 66 degree curve, and the largest NG locomotives used in North America. http://home.bresnan.net/~bpratt15/

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RE: Problem making a pilot in 3D Canvas, wacampbell, Oct-08-03, 03:27 PM, (1) RE: Problem making a pilot in 3D Canvas, bpratt, Oct-08-03, 06:00 PM, (2) RE: Problem making a pilot in 3D Canvas, Vulcan Foundry, Oct-08-03, 06:28 PM, (3) RE: Problem making a pilot in 3D Canvas, bpratt, Oct-08-03, 07:20 PM, (4) RE: Problem making a pilot in 3D Canvas, Vulcan Foundry, Oct-08-03, 07:29 PM, (5) RE: Problem making a pilot in 3D Canvas, pwillard, Oct-08-03, 07:51 PM, (6) RE: Problem making a pilot in 3D Canvas, bpratt, Oct-08-03, 11:41 PM, (7) RE: Problem making a pilot in 3D Canvas, Vulcan Foundry, Oct-09-03, 00:16 AM, (8) RE: Problem making a pilot in 3D Canvas, bpratt, Oct-09-03, 01:16 AM, (9) RE: Problem making a pilot in 3D Canvas, pwillard, Oct-09-03, 12:26 PM, (10) RE: Problem making a pilot in 3D Canvas, ctillier, Oct-09-03, 01:19 PM, (11) RE: Problem making a pilot in 3D Canvas, bpratt, Oct-09-03, 06:43 PM, (12) RE: Problem making a pilot in 3D Canvas, pwillard, Oct-09-03, 07:42 PM, (13)

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CREASE!

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Didn't help.

Modeling the Uintah NG Railway, with it’s 7.5 % grade, 66 degree curve, and the largest NG locomotives used in North America. http://home.bresnan.net/~bpratt15/

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I had a similar problem with some of the pilots I have made. I find the best method is to divide your top and bottom edges of your scaled cube into two, thus creating a new point in the center of your top and bottom edges. Then join the top middle point with each of the right and left diagonal bottom points to create two new edges. This will now give you four faces on the front of your scaled cube. To create the leading edge of the pilot click on the front bottom point and drag it forward making sure it is straight as you drag along the Z Axis. Delete the now diamond shaped bottom face and you should have a pilot with four faces in the front.As far as getting rid of the texture distortion at the front you can try the object adjustment tool after applying your texture in conjunction with the edit control panel to stretch or move it around on your object. If that does not get rid of the texture problem try a UVremap after texture application.I think that if you create the pilot with four faces instead of just two this will help with your problem. You might also try to optimize the pilot as well to see if this helps.

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Hey it looks better. It has both sides recessed now but at least they are both the same and don’t look bad unless from a 75 - 90 degree angle. Still have the same four faces but the Poly seams are symmetrical now - something I was trying to do. You didn’t mention adding the line from top center to bottom center but that was not a problem as I had been doing that before.Would still like to get a flatter appearance, but this will keep the wolf away from the door until I come by a better way. Creasing and optimizing didn’t help. Will play with Object Adjustment and UVremap tonight - haven’t messed with either one so should be interesting.Thanks for the help, Bill

Modeling the Uintah NG Railway, with it’s 7.5 % grade, 66 degree curve, and the largest NG locomotives used in North America. http://home.bresnan.net/~bpratt15/

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>Hey it looks better. It has both sides recessed now but
>at least they are both the same and don’t look bad unless
>from a 75 - 90 degree angle. Still have the same four faces
>but the Poly seams are symmetrical now - something I was
>trying to do. You didn’t mention adding the line from top
>center to bottom center but that was not a problem as I had
>been doing that before.
>
>Would still like to get a flatter appearance, but this will
>keep the wolf away from the door until I come by a better
>way. Creasing and optimizing didn’t help. Will play with
>Object Adjustment and UVremap tonight - haven’t messed with
>either one so should be interesting.
>
>Thanks for the help, Bill
Hmm....The angled side should be straight and not recessed at all. You are just doing this to the front faces and not the rear as well ?

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Give me an overview of "how" you applied textures. Some methods introduce errors that can be avoided if a different method is used.
Pete Willard


http://www.trainsimstuff.com for beta releases, fonts, and project news.

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LAST EDITED ON Oct-09-03 AT 00:07 AM (EDT)

The textures were only applied to the front in the front view. First applied the texture to the whole front using the fill tool. Later tried cropping the texture into two halves and applying to the individual sides with the paint tool. Also tried texturing the individual faces using the fill operations tool. In each case the texture appeared the same, and appeared OK except that it’s shape was bent (better word then my previous use of distorted) at the seam between the two Polys on each face. The textures were applied in Standard Coordinate mode, but also tried using the other edit modes as shown in the Oriented Modeling tutorial.I feel that the problem is that the faces are not flat, because they are made of two Polys with a sharp seam between them. The texture is merely following these Poly surfaces. The surface on the prototype is not flat either- the outside edge is vertical while the center edge slopes back about 45 degrees. What if I twisted the face the same as it? Have never performed a twist operation, and don’t know how, but think it is worth a try. Am open to any other suggestions.Thanks for the input guys, Bill

Modeling the Uintah NG Railway, with it’s 7.5 % grade, 66 degree curve, and the largest NG locomotives used in North America. http://home.bresnan.net/~bpratt15/

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I think you may find that instead of altering your pilot object that a simple adjustment of the texture on the pilot is needed. The operation adjustment tool is what you will need to use to move the texture around on the object to get a better fit and prevent this distorion. It can take some time to get the texture looking good and it adds to your experience. As another idea, did you try and use the paintbrush tool and use it to paint the faces by holding down the left mouse button instead of just clicking on a face individually ? This can sometimes work better than other method of texturing.I can't post a pic of what I am talking about at the moment as my version of Canvas will not work on this computer.

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Just tried both sugestions but no change (I did learn from doing them though). The Operation Adjustment Tool changed where the crease was located but did not eliminate it. Am attaching a current screen shot.I do not understand how one side of the front view, consisting of two polys with different surface angles, can be textured to not have a crease at the seam. Does the texture not have to follow the poly faces? This is what it apears (to me) to be hapening.The object has four faces. The two top outer faces are vertical and the two bottom center faces are angled from vertical.Not trying to argue, just trying to figure what the heck is hapening.Thanks again, Bill

Modeling the Uintah NG Railway, with it’s 7.5 % grade, 66 degree curve, and the largest NG locomotives used in North America. http://home.bresnan.net/~bpratt15/

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Don't try twist... it will mess you up and add to many faces.You "could" try Champering the edge by adding a single face at a sligly less steep angle in the crease so changes don't look so abrupt.Try thisAvoid using the operation adjust.
Avoid using the paintbrush or the paintbucket on the right side.Select the area of the bitmap you want to place on the front faces.HOLD DOWN the CTRL key and CLICK ALL the front faces that will accept the bitmap. They should all turn "CYAN" color.Now, move over to the operations panel. Select the fill tool from there... see if it makes a difference..
Pete Willard


http://www.trainsimstuff.com for beta releases, fonts, and project news.

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OK I'll jump in I think your understanding is entirely correct. As long as you stick to just two faces (4 triangles) for your pilot, no amount of texture adjustement will make it look right.By the way, initially the unsightly creases showed up this way because when you apply a texture, the underlying object is automatically triangulated. (It has to be). You have no direct control over this triangulation process, unless your polys are already triangles to begin with.To fix your pilot, use the divide operation along the top and bottom edges, and connect the newly formed points with the create edge operation. You will end up with four faces... but you may even want to continue dividing and connecting until you have eight faces across the whole thing. It's not like you're going to bust your polygon budget by having six more faces on a highly visible part of your model! That's just the fundamental nature of the shape you're trying to represent...Good luck,

--
Clem

http://www.tillier.net/speedworks/index.html

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Clem,
Glad you jumped in. I had already divided top & bottom and joined them to make four faces but didn’t realize I could further subdivide these. Making eight faces makes it look great, and I think with a little UV Map work I can probably get it down to six. I agree - for such a prominent part I can afford a few Polys. Making an 0-6-2T and may just use an eight Poly in the front and a six in the rear.Thanks everyone for your input. I learned some from every suggestion, even from the ones that didn’t solve my immediate problem. I am a newby to 3DC but am slowly taming the beast one operation at a time. My next foreseeable problem will be animating the valve gear. Am using a Stephenson type where only a link and valve rod are visible. Being as the link is not connected to any already animated objects I don’t know where to start - any ideas?Thanks again guys, Bill

Modeling the Uintah NG Railway, with it’s 7.5 % grade, 66 degree curve, and the largest NG locomotives used in North America. http://home.bresnan.net/~bpratt15/

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I agree, it is misleading that a "face" will look square until you texture it. On the other hand, if you save texturing till the end, it makes working with your model in wireframe mode much "cleaner".It's a really complicated thing... keeping the polycount down. You constantly need to decide between using a texture or actually modeling a surface. If you just can't seen to get it to look nice via textures, have a go at a 3d version even if it's just for the practice.Pete Willard


http://www.trainsimstuff.com for beta releases, fonts, and project news.

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