Atlantic

I've started to make the B&O railroad's "Atlantic". This is what I have done so far. mrWM734

current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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RE: Atlantic, jhilden, May-27-03, 09:36 PM, (1) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, May-28-03, 02:41 PM, (2) RE: Atlantic, OkrasaGhia, May-28-03, 05:55 PM, (3) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, May-29-03, 08:50 AM, (4) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, May-30-03, 03:52 PM, (5) RE: Atlantic, OkrasaGhia, May-30-03, 04:23 PM, (6) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, May-30-03, 09:49 PM, (7) RE: Atlantic, OkrasaGhia, May-31-03, 05:33 AM, (8) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, May-31-03, 11:20 PM, (9) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, Jun-02-03, 06:59 PM, (10) RE: Atlantic, Jonatan, Jun-03-03, 05:09 AM, (11) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, Jun-03-03, 04:45 PM, (12) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, Jun-04-03, 03:21 PM, (13) RE: Atlantic, baldwin, Jun-04-03, 04:07 PM, (14) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, Jun-04-03, 05:37 PM, (15) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, Jun-05-03, 09:14 PM, (16) RE: Atlantic, OkrasaGhia, Jun-06-03, 04:33 PM, (18) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, Jun-06-03, 07:07 PM, (19) RE: Atlantic, jonathanmlewis, Jun-06-03, 01:18 PM, (17) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, Jun-06-03, 11:13 PM, (20) RE: Atlantic, OkrasaGhia, Jun-07-03, 05:32 AM, (21) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, Jun-07-03, 08:57 AM, (22) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, Jun-07-03, 10:29 AM, (23) RE: Atlantic, OkrasaGhia, Jun-07-03, 12:41 PM, (24) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, Jun-07-03, 02:17 PM, (25) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, Jun-07-03, 03:46 PM, (26) RE: Atlantic, OkrasaGhia, Jun-07-03, 07:19 PM, (27) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, Jun-07-03, 08:05 PM, (28) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, Jun-07-03, 09:15 PM, (29) RE: Atlantic, OkrasaGhia, Jun-08-03, 04:25 AM, (30) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, Jun-08-03, 08:16 AM, (31) RE: Atlantic, OkrasaGhia, Jun-08-03, 11:00 AM, (32) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, Jun-08-03, 11:53 AM, (33) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, Jun-09-03, 04:47 PM, (34) RE: Atlantic, OkrasaGhia, Jun-10-03, 04:06 PM, (35) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, Jun-10-03, 05:37 PM, (36) RE: Atlantic, OkrasaGhia, Jun-11-03, 07:50 AM, (37) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, Jun-11-03, 03:47 PM, (38) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, Jun-11-03, 07:51 PM, (39) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, Jun-12-03, 04:32 PM, (40) RE: Atlantic, Railbug, Jun-13-03, 02:26 AM, (41) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, Jun-13-03, 06:37 AM, (42) RE: Atlantic, OkrasaGhia, Jun-13-03, 12:34 PM, (43) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, Jun-13-03, 05:04 PM, (44) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, Jun-13-03, 09:24 PM, (45) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, Jun-15-03, 10:08 AM, (46) RE: Atlantic, OkrasaGhia, Jun-15-03, 02:46 PM, (47) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, Jun-15-03, 05:32 PM, (48) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, Jun-16-03, 07:54 PM, (49) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, Jun-17-03, 04:11 PM, (50) RE: Atlantic, mrWM734, Jun-18-03, 02:28 PM, (51)

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LAST EDITED ON May-27-03 AT 10:09 PM (EDT)

Oh, That "Atlantic". Nice job. edited for seplingJoe Hildenbrand

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Thanks, so far the hardest parts to make have been the gears. I had to dent in the sides of a circle to make them. mrWM734

current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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You would be vise to reduce the number of segments in the cylinder making the boiler (and other parts also). Your polygon count is going through the roof without the model gaining anything.
You only need one height segment and you can reduce the number of radius sections if using polygon smothing.


//Okrasa
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Thanks, I'll try that. I didn't realise how many polygons I had. mrWM734

current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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Here's what I've fixed so far. I know I still have to fix one of the pistons. The only thing I'm having trouble smoothing is the wheels becase it makes them bulge at the sides. The smoothing makes it more realistic, and I can leave the number of polygons low. Thanks for the advice.mrWM734current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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If you separate the wheel thread from the side faces you can apply smothing to the threads without the bulging. Also if you make the faces out of a squares and use alpha transperacy to make it round you will save quite a few polygons with very little difference in the end result. Looks strange with square wheels in TSM but once inside MSTS it looks okay.


//Okrasa
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How do I separate the threads from the faces? Also, how do I alpha out a box to make clearance for the driverods? The alpha channels will help me when I make the spokes for the wheels, so that seems to be a good idea.mrWM734current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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To separate a part into two parts you select all the polygons that are going to the other part and then select 'split part' from the parts menu.
To use alpha layers in the textures you change the material of the part in the part properties. Change to either a alpha or trans material, trans uses a 1 bit alpha layer which means either it is transperant or not with alpha material you can make semi-transperant areas. For a wheel trans material will do. I used this method on the Heislers spoked wheels. N.B. TSM does not handle alpha channels in the preview, you will have to export to MSTS in order to see what it will end up like. On the other hand adjusting the alpha channel of the texture can be done later without the need of re-doing the model in TSM.


//Okrasa
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I've done that to the wheels and other parts, and this is what it now looks like.mrWM734current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/User_files/3ed970dc5f76076e.jpg

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I've now added on link and pin couplers, and handrails. This is what it now looks like.mrWM734current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/User_files/3edbd69d3f97aeec.jpg

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It's a funny looking loco but a realy good model. Good luck to you!/JonatanSteam rules!

My E-mail jonatan.gronoset@telia.com

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Thanks, my next part I'm doing is the hollow box near the gears & axles.mrWM734current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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I've tried to alpha out a section of the box, but have been unsuccessful. What can I do subtract points from an object?mrWM734current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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First of all you have to remember that MSTS does not display double sided polys, so if you take one end away from the box when you look into it, you see through it. If you need a box which is hollow, and open on one side, you have to first make the box, then delete the poly from the side which is to be open. Then do a copy and then past so you have two boxes. Select the second one, and move into polygon mode. Select Edit and Select all, then go to Polygon and then Flip all selected. You now have one open ended box that is not see-through. To make the box into one part, go back into part mode and make sure that both boxes are selected and current and then Join selected. mervyn@madasafish.com

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-04-03 AT 06:04 PM (EDT)

Ladies and gentlemen, we now have room for the driverods. Here is what the atlantic now looks like. mrWM734current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic

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Since I now have room for a correctly shaped gear axle, I am trying to make one. I need to bend a cylinder to make the new axle, and I don't know how to. Is bending a cylinder in TSM possible?mrWM734current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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Bending a cylinder? Is not the gear axle like a crank?
Aka offset connected cylinders.


//Okrasa
Chief Engineer
okrasaghia @ yahoo.com
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Thanks for the advice. I'll just connect some cylinders to make it then.mrWM734current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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Looking like a nice start.Keep up that good work.http://groups.msn.com/MSTSNarrowGauge

Jonathan Lewis
jonathanmlewis@msn.com

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-06-03 AT 11:16 PM (EDT)

Thanks for the complements everyone. I've added on more handrails, and fixed a couple of things. This is what it now looks like. Sorry about the second picture being so big. mrWM734current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/User_files/3ee157da5e7a469c.jpg

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Have you tried exporting it to MSTS yet?
If not you should for a couple of reasons.
First, you wan't to make sure it does export before putting to much work into it that might need to be redone.
Second, only in MSTS you will be able to see the effect of alpha channels in textures.


//Okrasa
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That's a good idea, I'll try it.mrWM734current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-07-03 AT 10:30 AM (EDT)

I've tried to export it, and I got the message below. How can I fix this?mrWM734current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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Looks like a tough one.
First inspect your object hierarchy, are all objects attached to another but for the main object?
How many polygons do you have for the whole model?
There is a maximum limit but it's unlikely you have hit it (don't know the exakt number).
Have you done any experiments with LOD levels?
Have you ever exported a model from TSM before? If not try making a very simple object and export that to make sure you understand how to do it correctly.


//Okrasa
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It is my first time exporting something. The box no longer says that, now it looks like this.mrWM734current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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I've sucessfully exported a simple object to MSTS, and I now know how exporting works. How do I add a root part to the hierarchy of my loco?mrWM734current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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This has to do with the object hierarchy I mentioned.
When you open the part properties (F2 when a part is selected) there is a dropdown box labeled Part Parent. In the list of this are all your parts and the part 'NONE'. Only one of your parts may have 'NONE' in this field (usually the main part of your model), this will be your root part. All other parts must have one of the other parts as parent (often the root part). When finished putting parents to every part it should be like a family tree with the root part as great grand parent to all the other parts.


//Okrasa
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Okay, I'll try that now. I'll post again once I've fixed that.mrWM734current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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The error box now says it can't find one of the part parents. Here is the new message, and the properties of the source of the error. The part does have a parent, but TSM doesn't want to recognize it.mrWM734current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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The obvious question would be: is there a part named 'railing 1'?
Next question is does 'railing 1' have a parent?
And finally if you follow the links of parents all the way do you end up at your root part? All these parent links must finally end up in one and the same root part. There is a 'View Hierarchy' menu item in the 'View' menu that might help to identify parent problems but to me it's not very useful because of the way it shows the parent link (gmax is much better in this respect).
Another thing that could cause problems is if you have to many parts.
Don't make each and every detail it's own part, it's practical when working on it but when you have finished it try joining parts that logically belong together provided they have the same type of texture material. Same as there is a limit to how many polygons MSTS can handle there is also a limit to how many parts in a model MSTS can handle. All the moving parts (wheels, rods aso) need to be there own parts for the animation to be possible but all the other details you should try to collapse into a few parts only like all the rails in one part.


//Okrasa
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The part "railing 1" does exist, and its parent is the root part. I've already started to merge different parts from my project. The part "inside railing" is made up of many parts itself. I'm thinking of joining all the handrail sections into one. Maybe by merging some more, I can fix the problem.mrWM734current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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Sounds like you could have a case of too many different parts.


//Okrasa
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Yes, it seems I have too many parts. I have tried to solve it by merging together axles with their wheels. I have also mergerd together all the parts making up the boiler to simplify some things.
I hope this works.mrWM734current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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I've finished merging the shapes, and the problem seems to not be with the shape limit. It seems to be a problem with part parents being identified correctly. I'm doing everything I can to fix this. So far, I have had to rename every single part, and merge some of them together.mrWM734current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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Main problem with parents is that you have to decide on one part being the grand daddy to all the other parts. This usually is the main boddy or frame. After that you have to link all the other parts to this either directly or by another part that in turn is linked to this. All parts most be linked to this single main part even if there can be several parts in between. To start with you could try setting the parent of all parts to the main part, later you will want to link some parts to the wheels in order to animate them properly but that you can do later, just get it to export now.


//Okrasa
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LAST EDITED ON Jun-10-03 AT 05:39 PM (EDT)

I have made the main part of the body the grand daddy of all the other parts. I made each part directly connected to the main body. When I try to export it now, I get the new message below. The part "front axle" doesn't exist anymore, and it says that it can't find its parent.mrWM734current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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According to that error message it does exist.
Use the select part by name menu command and se what you get.
By the way the axles should be named Wheels1 & Wheels2 for proper animation. If not they will not move later when in MSTS.


//Okrasa
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I looked, and I find the part under that menu only when I hit Shift + P. It doesn't show up otherwise. I'll change the part prent, and see if that does anything to fix the problem.mrWM734current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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I fixed the problem with the one part, but it now gives me the message that only one part can have no parent. I'll see if I can fix that problem. It might involve going into shift + P again.mrWM734current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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I've tried everything, and am out if ideas on what can be the problem. Does onyone have any ideas why this isn't working?mrWM734current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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I've been following this thread and 2 things I didn't see mentioned:First something that always caused problems for me is spaces in the names of child parts.Second I don't think I saw any textures on any of the screen shots, I don't think TSM will let you export without textures. A few untextured polys are OK but all parts have to have a texture assigned.I'm not an expert on this but these things work for me so it's worth a shot.Your model looks great, I'm looking forward to seeing it in Trainsim. Harold

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Okay, I'll try getting rid of the spaces in the names of the parts. That might fix some things. Regarding the textures, I was going to wait untill the B&O Railroad museum was open again, so I coud take some pictures, and be as true to the prototype as possible. The only good shots I know of the engine are copyrighted, and I don't want to get in a whole bunch of legal trouble.mrWM734current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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Don't think the textures are the issue.
When you have not textured a part in TSM it uses the blank.ace.
Other 3D programs work differently, in gmax you must texture all parts.I can't think of anything else that might give problems though.
If you like I can have a look at it if you mail me the files.
Naturally I would neither pass it on or use it for anything else.


//Okrasa
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I'll try removing the spaces in the names first, and then see what that does. If I can't fix it then, I'll show you the loco's parts that are giving me trouble.mrWM734I might current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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Please disregard the "I might" at the bottom of my last post, I fogot to delete it when writing my message.mrWM734current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-15-03 AT 10:11 AM (EDT)

I've now put in a new gear on the axle. I have also connected one of the driverods to the gear and axle. I hope to have the bugs fixed soon. Hopefully, this might get rid of some of the problems I was having with th gear. Here are some pics.mrWM734current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/User_files/3eec7e533cd00677.jpg

http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/User_files/3eec7e903d8dc21b.jpg

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I do suggest you sort out your exporting problems before doing anything more since the solution might involve deleting things from the engine. No fun at all when you just have added them.


//Okrasa
Chief Engineer
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In the process of fixing things, I had to merge together some of the parts. I realized that some things like that part were giving me trouble, so I had to delete them. I'll try exporting it again, and see what happens.mrWM734current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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I now have a .s file for the Atlantic! The only thing is that MSTS doesn't like it. When I try to use it, I get the infamous "send/don't send" message. Here is what the loco looks like from TSM.mrWM734current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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I've sucessfully exported it again. I have a .s file and a .sd file. I edited a .eng file so it would take my shape file. I am still trying to get it to work. So far, I have the engine showing up in conbuilder, but it doesn't work in MSTS. Since I'm now creating a .eng file for my engine, can someone please help me by making physics for my loco?mrWM734current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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Since this post has gotten quite long, I'm starting up a new post. It will be a continuation of this, and the first thing I'll post about is the .s file problems I'm having.mrWM734current project: B&O R.R. "Atlantic"

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