Out go the lights!

Yo, Loco guys, me again!!Hee-hee, I was fiddling with the Jason Dilworth SD40s, lights by Tim Kent, to chop out some of the sparkle and glitter so they didn't trigger the light count limit bug.Huh? Whadya' mean you don't know about the light count limit bug?! Where were you when Judd Spittler was patching BNSF 2098? You guys gotta come out into the real world more often, all this sitting around playing with calculators and smoking slipsticks while you dream about logarithms is making you flabby.Alright, sit up straight, no slouching, quit looking at those cosines and tangents for a minute.An engine with 35 light sources looks really pretty, with truck lights and step lights and bogie lights and all, but it's no good for activities. An engine with 35 lights gets used in an activity as an AI train or loose consist helper, and after a while playing the activity some, then eventually most, of the signals on the route go dark. How soon this is triggered seems to depend on how many - well, let's call them "holiday lights" engines, I don't want to refer to them as buggy - depends on how many holiday lights engines are actually used in the activity.So. I replace all the default engines in the PO&N6 activities with Jason Dilworth SD40s, (the ones I got were repainted as PO&N #12 and PO&N #18 by Kevin Shea) and replace all the loose consist helper engines as well (total comes out to 12 to 14 AI trains at any one time, plus 15 loose consist helpers scattered around the route, so a total of about 30 SD40s including the player consist), and within 10 minutes most of the signals go dark and the headlights on the player engine go out.After hacking the .eng files for several weeks, I chopped the number down to 12 lights (picked that cuz the MS/TA SD40-2 has 11, and never triggered the bug), and after driving for several hours meeting AI trains and adding and dropping off helper engines, all the signals were still working.So. Now we know, 35 lights is too many, 12 lights is OK, has anyone been experimenting with this and come up with a definite number that does trigger the bug? I mean is 27 lights OK and 28 too many, who knows what the actual bug count is? Let's find out and get the word out so everybody stops uploading engines that look pretty in explore route but are useless for activities.Off topic, here's a wierd one I just noticed with the default KUJU GP38:Only happens from certain angles with the headlights on full bright, the whole cab section glows. Seen that with some add-on locos, didn't know the defaults did it too.

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RE: Out go the lights!!!!, TrirailF40PHL, May-23-03, 08:51 PM, (1) RE: Out go the lights!!!!, buzzbenz, Jun-03-03, 04:29 PM, (13) RE: Out go the lights!!!!, chucksc, May-24-03, 08:31 AM, (2) RE: Out go the lights!!!!, sniper297, May-24-03, 01:43 PM, (4) RE: Out go the lights!!!!, HAC, Jun-04-03, 05:35 PM, (21) RE: Out go the lights!!!!, Hobart, May-24-03, 01:38 PM, (3) RE: Out go the lights!!!!, JohnNetzlof, May-24-03, 03:49 PM, (5) RE: Out go the lights!!!!, Bing, May-24-03, 05:28 PM, (6) RE: Out go the lights!!!!, westerngy, Jun-03-03, 09:14 AM, (7) RE: Out go the lights!!!!, sniper297, Jun-03-03, 09:30 AM, (8) RE: Out go the lights!!!!, westerngy, Jun-03-03, 08:27 PM, (14) RE: Out go the lights!!!!, JonN, Jun-03-03, 09:32 AM, (9) RE: Out go the lights!!!!, Bing, Jun-03-03, 09:48 AM, (10) RE: Out go the lights!!!!, CPR_Malice_96th, Jun-03-03, 10:39 AM, (11) RE: Out go the lights!!!!, smmille1, Jun-03-03, 03:44 PM, (12) RE: Out go the lights!!!!, sniper297, Jun-03-03, 10:11 PM, (15) RE: Out go the lights!!!!, smmille1, Jun-04-03, 07:40 AM, (16) RE: Out go the lights!!!!-Just your opinion, ace6879, Jun-04-03, 10:26 AM, (17) RE: Out go the lights!!!!-Just your opinion, keiffer, Jun-04-03, 11:22 AM, (18) RE: Out go the lights!!!!-Just your opinion, GMOF3A, Jun-04-03, 11:34 AM, (19) RE: Out go the lights!!!!-Just your opinion, ace6879, Jun-04-03, 11:36 AM, (20) RE: Out go the lights!!!!-Just your opinion, chucksc, Jun-04-03, 05:47 PM, (22) RE: Out go the lights!!!!-Just your opinion, sniper297, Jun-04-03, 06:55 PM, (23) RE: Out go the lights!!!!-Just your opinion, CSXALine, Jun-04-03, 07:17 PM, (25) RE: Out go the lights!!!!-Just your opinion, GMOF3A, Jun-04-03, 08:45 PM, (27) RE: Out go the lights!!!!-Just your opinion, CSXALine, Jun-05-03, 01:44 AM, (30) RE: Out go the lights!!!!, CPR_Malice_96th, Jun-04-03, 06:56 PM, (24) RE: Out go the lights!!!!, ace6879, Jun-04-03, 08:23 PM, (26) RE: Out go the lights!!!!, smmille1, Jun-04-03, 11:34 PM, (28) RE: Out go the lights!!!!, AlabamaRailfan, Jun-05-03, 11:29 AM, (31) RE: Out go the lights!!!!, smmille1, Jun-05-03, 11:43 AM, (33) RE: Out go the lights!!!!, AlabamaRailfan, Jun-05-03, 02:22 PM, (35) RE: Out go the lights!!!!, chucksc, Jun-05-03, 02:56 PM, (37) RE: Out go the lights!!!!, exethermega, Jun-05-03, 01:14 AM, (29) RE: Out go the lights!!!!, sniper297, Jun-05-03, 11:31 AM, (32) RE: Out go the lights!!!!, ace6879, Jun-05-03, 12:57 PM, (34) RE: Out go the lights!!!!, chucksc, Jun-05-03, 02:52 PM, (36) RE: Out go the lights!!!!, ace6879, Jun-05-03, 03:04 PM, (38) RE: Out go the lights!!!!, ace6879, Jun-05-03, 04:35 PM, (39) RE: Out go the lights!!!!, smmille1, Jun-05-03, 05:02 PM, (40) RE: Out go the lights!!!!, chucksc, Jun-06-03, 08:36 PM, (41)

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The "glowing" locomotive is a bug in the hard-coding of the sim - will happen with all locomotives if headlights are at dim or bright. Turn the headlights off and the cab glow will fade out with the lights.Great article, BTW!Take care!Kurt
Come ride my little train that is rolling down the tracks to the Junction....
- 1963 "Petticoat Junction"

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-03 AT 04:29 PM (EDT)

Just for the record, it is not just the locomotive that glows... It can be any piece of rolling stock. And it will only occur on parts of the model that have textures with an Alpha channel.Best example of what i mean by this (that i can think of immediately, anyway) is our (NALW) F40. Most of the locomotive textures do not have an Alpha channel - however, the cab windows do. With the lights on, at certain angles the cab windows will suddenly glow bright, but the rest of the locomotive will not. Same thing happens on my baggage car, where the doors (which have an Alpha channel) will occasionally "glow", but the rest of the car (without an alpha channel) will not...BTW - Has anyone ever found the cure for this?------ BUZZ ------

-- Power For You --

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Jim,IIRC, its not the number of lights on an individual Locomotive but the total number of lights on all locomotives in the currently active activity....Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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LAST EDITED ON May-24-03 AT 01:45 PM (EDT)

Hmmm, seen both of these before, "IIRC", what's that?Judd Spittler (on vacation farming in Middla-Nowhere Montana or someplace currently, can send & rx email, but don't have access to MSTS til he goes back home ) once said there was a 64 light count total limit. I don't see that, I can festoon an area with signal heads, and run 14 AI trains with a 3 engine player train thru that area, and everything stays lit with engines that have 12 or less lights. One player train with a normal engine, one loose consist 35 light engine parked in a shed, no AI traffic at all, sooner or later the signals go dark and the headlights on the player engine quit working. Saving the activity and reloading at the same spot apparently clears the RAM and everything works again, at least for a few minutes.What I find really odd about this is that the dark signal syndrome happens with 35 light count AI trains and/or loose consists that DO NOT have any lights on, just the presence of 35 light sources in the .eng file triggers the bug even if the player uses a default 9 light engine and never turns the headlights on at all.11 light player SD402 #1953 meets 13 light AI SD40 #12, both with lights on, all signals lit up.Duh, my mind works slowly these days, but I'm guessing now (after mulling it over awhile) "IIRC" = "If I Recall Correctly"!

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Huh, guess everything old is new again? Kelley Ellison raised this issue on max lights way back in the dim mists of time here (well over a year ago, maybe longer, of memory serves me right).
Cheers
HAC

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Way to go Sniper! No I don't feel so bad about deep six'n all those bogie lights, step lights etc. They was a pain in the a$$ to deal with anyway

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Hit the lights!
Fade to black!I see those fitting in nicely!Anyway, u have that Canadian National SD90MAC with the super light pack, and have no problems with 5 of 'em strung.....

-------------
Dispatcher on April 18th, 2003 on the NEC. First multiplayer operation of the NEC. History is made.

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Jim - "If I Recall Correctly" - you know about the incorrect light count in a couple of the default locos, Dash 9 included, so I assume no need to go into that, hopefully the light count is accurate when the default coding is changed. The other glitch the Kuju elves worked into the sim is the lights code for cars. The way they are set up is with a "Headlight" code. This not only isn't necessary for a FRED / EOT, it ensures the lights won't go on in certain circumstances. Yuri's excellent tutorial on lights covers this.What I am thinking is that a significant light "count" might be going on, with no lights actually coming on, all the same a few dozen of those might be gumming up the works. This is speculation, certainly, but something perhaps to be looked at. The point here is: Cars don't need the "headlight" entry to turn on the FRED, player or AI, either one. I bwleive they actually ensure that AI EOT can't be on. AT any rate, I followed Yuri's instructions and set up the AI cars in All The Way West for MP31 - the AI FRED is working fine, that is thus far, if it works for the chemi car, it should work elsehwere.Bing

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Could someone point me in the direction of Yuri's manual for lights.
Just Rollin Down The Tracks Dale

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Duh, shoulda mentioned that!http://www.railpage.org.au/steam4me/trainsim/tutorials/ai-lighting.htmlAfter reading that you can click on the "home" link for other tutorials, here's the main webpage link;http://www.railpage.org.au/steam4me/trainsim/tutorials/index.html

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THANKS Sniper.Just Rollin Down The Tracks Dale

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I think this glitch also found it's way into TA's Bethgon coalporters.Jonathan Nikiforovs.
Milepost 180, CP Belleville Sub.

Repainter for Yonder Locomotive Works.

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With careful selection, the designer can have lights on all over the place. Like so many other aspects in MSTS, "It all depends ...". I have routes where everyone not only drives autos and trucks in the dead of night with no headlights (glow material fixes this), but no one in the towns and villages stays up past sundown. Rolling through burg after burg with no lights anywhere to be seen gets spooky. where did all the people go? Are they hiding under blankets, using flashlights, the way we used to when we were kids, and didn't want out parents to know we were not sleeping. Epidemic narcolepsy?I have another route where the towns are lit nicely, just enough buldings, just enough other lights. Everything stays on. No problem. Requires further study, the point being made is some know how to do this, some don't. I don't. Not yet. Bing

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-03 AT 10:42 AM (EDT)

I am in 100% agreement that it is not the " How many per loco "it's" How many per activity "I went a little crazy with the ADFRR-2 and added AI trains & static trains EVERYWHERE !!Fired up the Activity.........NO signals nor Sphere of Light !!So I went in & deleted a few static trains at a time.Lights eventually came back on....... Not kidding however there must have been close to 50 static trains before I started deleteing.For the most part I just took the units off of the trains and left the rolling stock in its place.Which leads me to the next thought. 99% of the .WAG files have 2 lines minimum for the FRED. Multiply this by a 100 car train THEN times 6 - 100 car AI trains and this is going to raise the total quantity of lights.I think I will go through all of my freight cars and eliminiate these lighting lines as I generally use a caboose anyways. Then for more modern trains I'll leave a few .WAG files that have the FRED.Then I'll see if that makes any difference on the lights going out.I would almost have to to certainly it would !!Oh well back to workLaterTim Kent
96th_Malice
" Power for You "

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Not that this is the most useful place to advertise it, but there are other ways to add "lights" without having to use the sim's light code. This way, you can have lit-up locos without blackouts. I might even get this finished someday. It's some custom stuff added on to the TA/Kuju SD40-2. None of these are "lights" as far as the sim is concerned.

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Hmm, I'm sorta wondering if some of them glowing blendatexxdiffalphabrighthoobedoo thingamys aren't part of the problem, Igor."I am in 100% agreement that it is not the" How many per loco "it's" How many per activity "", may be something to that, I'm currently running around with half 3 light locos, one headlight, one cone of light, and one AI headlight that's enabled, the other half is 8 light Alco RS2s without working AI lights. I'm driving an Alco with my headlights on full bright, and some of the signals are starting to drop out after 2 hours of continuous running.If it's an actual LIGHT count tho, the AI trains and loose consist engines with no AI lights shouldn't trigger it, which is why my theory was number of light SOURCES, whether on or off. Or, like I said to Scott, maybe something in the shape file is adding to the problem, who knows. MSTS 4, anybody?

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I don't think anything in the shape would affect it.Have you tried running around with NO lights and seeing if signals start going blank at any point? That might give a clue as to if it cuts out at total detected at some point, regardless of whether they're currently within range of being useful, as opposed to it freeing the was-close-but-now-far-away ones from memory (which I strongly doubt it does).

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-04-03 AT 11:13 AM (EDT)

Hey Sniper, The limit on my machine was 250 total. That was by trial-and-error. No more, no less. But I have also ran over YOUR route with 3 default dash-9's and had the signals all go out. So what does that prove??It is up to you how you do your own computer. But I WILL NOT stop lighting units with less than prototypical lighting. If you find it bugs you, then remove them. No biggie. This is something that has been known for almost two years now..where you been? It is not just the lights on the engines that do it either. But removing the flashing red off the cars is a new idea. Always thought the red dot was silly anyway without a fred. I HOPE MSTS2 will raise the light limit up, but until that, I continue to do things that I do, and how my CUSTOMERS want them, not you. And SMMILLE1 above has come up with a way to remove alot of the extra codes, but it is in trial stage. I have them, and run them alot. There is merrit there. (BTW, send me a mail when ya get time..been so busy here, got kinda lost.)It looks EXTREMELY good to me. Could illiminate alot of trouble if the limit is not raised.But PLEASE don't come in here and tell me how to light stuff because YOU don't like all the sparkles and your signals go dark. This happens to be old news my friend. And if step lights and truck lights bother you, edit your own files..no biggie either. They are there for the people who WANT them. I spend HOURS and HOURS here doing the best job I can to make them as accurate as possible. To light something with just a headlight or two is NOT my idea of reality. ESPECIALLY on ICG, SCL, DRGW, AMTK, CNW or MILW stuff. So in reply, you do YOUR thing, I will do mine MY way! I don't tell you how to route build, don't tell me how to light! If I could get into the program code and change it I would. But for now I have to wait for Kuju to rais the limit. There are ALWAYS trade-offs. Sorry if it seems gruff, but after two years and very few bitches......hmmmmmmmmm this seems like a unwarranted re-hash. I could spend an hour and look up all of the posts in the past on this for your reference, but I think not. LAter!Kelley D. Ellison



CSX A-Line Chief lighting engineer
NALW Lighting engineer
Dekosoft Lighting engineer

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Seems like someone was a day late and a dollar short

---- Keith Getter ----

-- "Power for You" --

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Yeah Kelley..I thought you had already addressed this trouble and resolved it...Can you revive your posts...I do not remember where they are..or even if it was last year or the year before..(My memory is wacko!..they say that's the first to go...~sigh.....)

Paul...
www.mstsgmo.com

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-04-03 AT 12:01 PM (EDT)

Hi Paul, Lemmie see what I finds.......Well, after searchuing for almost a half hour, Most posts only go back a year, so this was discussed BEFORE the search will allow. I have discussed lights many times since, and have ALOT to look through. Searching all of them is WAAAAAYYYYYY to much like work just to prove a point, but I can give a reference to when it was discovered.If anyone remembers, I did a Christmas IC Geep-9 (by Sam Webb) in Christmas lighting for the 1991 year. It is still in the library. This is when the big discussion was made about the limit. This was before we had the WONDEFUL TA AC4400 CP unit this past Christmas, with the lights added in the textures. Later!Kelley D. Ellison



CSX A-Line Chief lighting engineer
NALW Lighting engineer
Dekosoft Lighting engineer

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Like I said in Post #2 Jim,
I thought we had all been down this path before and knew that the limit was built in to MSTS... Whether it is total number of lights or illumination points or what ever....
That's why I was amazed you asked the question originally....
Now Shep and I being old pharts are allowed to have senior moments and forget things but you young pups under 55 are not! LOL!
There is also a similar but not nearly as well documented limit on sounds in the engine also....
Be very interesting to see what Kuju actuall "fixes" with version 2...
My guess is they have been fixing all the modules (bits/pieces) that they "skipped around" to get version 1 out the door....Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-04-03 AT 06:59 PM (EDT)

Hmmm, well, it was news to me back in September of 2001. First time I experienced it was when I used the Jason Dilworth SD40s with the 35 light source .eng files and had all the signals go dark. Not on the PO&N, because it had no signals at that time. Then in November 2001, when Judd came out with GP38 BNSF 2098, it came with two options, as an add-on or replacement for the default GP38 BNSF 2081. All those posts were in the main trainsim forum, so they're lost, but there was a lot of troubleshooting going on as to why the headlights stopped working in PO&N3 activities (didn't affect the signals cuz there still weren't any signals yet), and all the lights in the Marias activities including signals went dark. On the PO&N I had a bunch of GP38s sitting around in engine sheds as loose consit helpers, and the people who had elected to install BNSF 2098 as a replacement rather than as a helper had the headlights on the player engine quit working. That was the first I heard of a light count limit bug."if step lights and truck lights bother you, edit your own files..no biggie either." wasn't an option at the time for me, since I was still learning the route & activity editors, I hadn't yet delved into the mysteries of the .eng file. I didn't need to tho, Judd released a patch for 2098 within two months, so that the overwhelming majority of people who didn't know how to edit their own .eng files could use it in activities. From the readme file for the patch:""Microsoft Train Simulator has a limit related to the total number of "lights" which can be defined for the locomotives and cars used within an activity. When this limit is exceeded, most lights in the simulation (including signal lights) go dark. BNSF 2098 has a large number of lights defined, mainly to create the illusion of reflected light on the wheels, hand railings, etc. Because of this high light count, BNSF 2098 can be considered the cause of the problem, when it occurs in activities which use this locomotive.Spittler Engineering has developed alternate ".eng" files which reduce the number of light elements by more than half. It does this by removing a number of "reflections", including all the wheel reflections. This should greatly reduce the chances of this lighting limit being exceeded during an activity."Judd was the only guy I know of to address the problem, and while I was working to correct it on the SD40s so I can use them in activities (taken me six months of off-and-on screwing around to chop out all the extras and get it to work), I noticed the large number of repaints, plus new models being uploaded with 35+ lights and the reskins they spawned. So after doing a search (I got DSL) for lights, lighting, light count limit, etc., I came up totally dry in this forum. So I thought I would (A) start a discussion to see who knew exactly what, and (B) tip off the designers who were unaware of the bug. I wasn't aware there were people who knew about the bug but didn't give a rat's ass if their engines can only be used in explore route mode, or that other people who are unaware will use them in activities and spend six months scratching their heads and blaming route developers and activity designers for all the dark signals.No, Kelley, if I was doing it I'd do like Judd did, offer two alternative versions so people wouldn't have to try hacking their own .eng files. If I know about a KUJU bug I do my best to avoid triggering it, or at least include a warning in the readme about not using it a certain way. But as you say, it's a free country, do it however you want.I never saw a problem with default Dash 9s, and the first version of the PO&N (number five) that had signals used a large number of dash 9s as both loose consist helpers and AI traffic trains, some with 3 Dash 9s. I still don't know what the limit is, or if there is a cut and dried limit, or whether it makes a difference whether the headlights are on or off. All I know is it's a goddamn headache, and I got other things to do, so I'm gonna get back to them and leave you guys to worry or not worry about testing these limits.

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Personally I think Kelley's Lighs rock and we will continue to offer them on our stuff.. lets face it MSTS is a bug farm.. we all had to learn from scratch lets all calm downJason Webb
Http://www.scl-aline.com

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hehehe..I gots some bug spray Jason..but all it does is make my monitor sticky, and the dab blamed thing still does the "KUJO CRASH".I like Mr. Ellison's lights too. He's the lighting GURU...the "been there, done that" guy. What he says goes in my book.(as Kelley would say) 'nuff said. LOL.

Paul...
www.mstsgmo.com

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LOL Jason Webb
Http://www.scl-aline.com

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>Anyway, u have that Canadian National SD90MAC with the super
>light pack, and have no problems with 5 of 'em strung..... It was an CN SD80 !!I rememeber cause Canadian National doesn't have any of those either.Oh yeah.............and I skinned n lit it !Later
Tim Kent
96th_Malice
" Power for You "

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Jesus Sniper, How many times do I have to post it?? the limit, through trial and error is at/around 250. The same consensus was from several others who tried it as well. I know it is not YOU saying it, but will you listen to a person who has spent MANY hours doing it? If you have known this since Sept 2001, why the hell wait till now to bring it up? And yes, Splitter eng. did have wheel sparkle and handrail sparkle...but I never went that route...neither has anyone since. We discovered specular lighting...As far as offering two variations...I very often DO offer that. in fact, alot of times, I offer WAY more than that. But I light the way 98% of the folks want them....the others have to either run it the way it is, or edit them themselves. Or ask for a "smaller version." Unlike some people, I DO do custom work.AS far as peeps bitching about the lights and the signals going out, I haven't seen a post about it in a long time. And I haven't heard about a person's route being blasted in a while either. If they do, usually the posts get answered, and we go on with life..I suggest reading them closer. And as far as lighting systems with 35 lights....I have several more coming with that amount. Some less, some more, all PROTOTYOPE. Releases from NALW, CSX A-Line, and a few private ones. If a person decides to re-paint the model, it is a good thing!! If you don't want them to hurt your system, then DON'T download them!Trust me when I say, this has been dealt with, and by the people who do it all the time. Am I going to quit because is screws up your activities? Not hardly! Like I said before, I see the default ones doing the EXACT same thing if you use a certain number. Since you seem to want to crusade all the time, and show your abilities, why don't you get ahold of KUJU and try to get them to RAISE the limit, instead of bitching about the ones already done. If your not a part of the solution, your part of the problem. I am CONSTANTLY trying to get MS and KUJU, and people involved to change the lighting thing. Until then, we are screwed. Help get it raised to make it more real instead of trying to make it more toy-like. No matter what I say, you will NEVER agree, and you will continue to chastize and want everything changed to fit YOUR needs. You do this every time you get a burr under your saddle. SO this whole thing is irrelavant. Do as you see fit. In fact, why don't you tell Nels to remove all the files with the big light counts. But here in the real world, I will continue doing the best I can do to make it real. Kinda like you try to do on your routes.And another thing, which is a little one, but in real life, a train passing you is SUPPOSED to have either a dim light, or dark. Signals DO go out, and other neat things too. But the BIGGEST thing...this is a HOBBY and is supposed to be FUN!!LAter!Kelley D. Ellison



CSX A-Line Chief lighting engineer
NALW Lighting engineer
Dekosoft Lighting engineer

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Well, here's to hoping we might be able to avoid the problem. Three AI locos. Total light code count (on OR off): four. The player-drivable version is down to 12 light codes, and this is for prototypical ICG w/ocitrol, mind you. (hey Kelley, are there any more prototypical lights to add anywhere? I've got room )

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-05-03 AT 11:31 AM (EDT)

>Well, here's to hoping we might be able to avoid the
>problem. Three AI locos. Total light code count (on OR
>off): four. The player-drivable version is down to 12 light
>codes, and this is for prototypical ICG w/ocitrol, mind you. Hey, smmille1,
Are most of these lights created using the alpha effects that you have described in the past? They are very nice! Any chance of a "mini-tutorial" on that process?One of the soft spots I have always had for railroading is the dynamics of watching trains at night. They seem even more larger than life and massive with all the various lights glowing and I think guys like Kelley and smmille1 are doing a fine job helping capture this dynamic. Let's just hope MSTS2 won't have some of the same silly restrictions.Highball!John D. Peterson
Webmaster
http://www.alabamarailfan.com

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Everything except the headlights are fullbright planes with a "light" texture, added via freightanim. It looks like I'm almost done with them - I started assembling the installer last night. if anyone wants to beta test, send me a message. I think about all I've got left is to write up some documentation. It looks like the compressed installer is going to be ~3MB, with an installed size of 15MB or so. And that's for 10 units

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Ahhhhh...so right now you are adding this to existing models via the freightanim() tag? This would be pretty easy to add to new models, I would guess, huh? Thanks a bunch for the info!Highball!John D. Peterson
Webmaster
http://www.alabamarailfan.com

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We'd love to look at the code.....
might help us out a bunch.....
who knows...Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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Hi guys,personaly, I'm more than satisfied with Kelley's lights because lights are as important as a good reskining job. I think lights are the finishing touch on a model and makes it close to prototype.So, I will continue to ask him to put his "magic" on my work.
At this time, I've never receive any complaints. I guess it means the job is well done and appreciate.Kelley, can you add some lights to the Dark side of the Force ? ? ?Take care !phil
SCL-CSX/A-Line

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Well, I've been looking at what I said and trying to figure out why Kelly came in here with a temper tantrum, but I just don't see it."Hey Sniper,"(That's me.)"The limit on my machine was 250 total."(Alright, consensus of opinion seems to be total number of lights rather than lights per engine, so I'll buy that. Probably 256, multiples of 16 you know, last number I heard was 64.)"That was by trial-and-error. No more, no less. But I have also ran over YOUR route with 3 default dash-9's and had the signals all go out. So what does that prove??"(Don't know if it proves anything, can't duplicate, bench checks 4.0. And replacing default engines in the Marias activities with the 35 light engines extinguishes signals on Marias Pass, so this ain't exclusive to the PO&N.)"It is up to you how you do your own computer. But I WILL NOT stop lighting units with less than prototypical lighting."(Who asked you to? Show me where I said "stop making these sillyassed hollywood lights.")"If you find it bugs you, then remove them. No biggie."(It was a biggie for me, I've reluctantly become my own lighting expert because I had to.)"This is something that has been known for almost two years now..where you been?"(Working on other things. I assumed if people knew about it they would be doing something about it. The idea that anyone would knowingly upload software that triggers known bugs is a new concept to me.)"It is not just the lights on the engines that do it either. But removing the flashing red off the cars is a new idea. Always thought the red dot was silly anyway without a fred.I HOPE MSTS2 will raise the light limit up, but until that, I continue to do things that I do, and how my CUSTOMERS want them, not you.And SMMILLE1 above has come up with a way to remove alot of the extra codes, but it is in trial stage. I have them, and run them alot. There is merrit there. (BTW, send me a mail when ya get time..been so busy here, got kinda lost.)It looks EXTREMELY good to me. Could illiminate alot of trouble if the limit is not raised."(Ah, some progress!)"But PLEASE don't come in here and tell me how to light stuff because YOU don't like all the sparkles and your signals go dark. This happens to be old news my friend. And if step lights and truck lights bother you, edit your own files..no biggie either."(Again, show me where I said stop making hollywood lights. I never TOLD anyone how to do anything.)"They are there for the people who WANT them. I spend HOURS and HOURS here doing the best job I can to make them as accurate as possible.To light something with just a headlight or two is NOT my idea of reality. ESPECIALLY on ICG, SCL, DRGW, AMTK, CNW or MILW stuff."(Explore route isn't my idea of reality.)"So in reply, you do YOUR thing, I will do mine MY way! I don't tell you how to route build, don't tell me how to light! If I could get into the program code and change it I would. But for now I have to wait for Kuju to rais the limit. There are ALWAYS trade-offs.Sorry if it seems gruff, but after two years and very few bitches......hmmmmmmmmm this seems like a unwarranted re-hash."(Defensive, aren't we? Been taking "sensitive artist" lessons from Svante Wendel? Can't stand to hear anything other than unquestioning fawning adoration? Sorry about your luck, I'm not one of your groupies.)"I could spend an hour and look up all of the posts in the past on this for your reference, but I think not."(Already tried that.)
Next post,"Jesus Sniper,"(Two different people, don't get us confused.)"How many times do I have to post it?? the limit, through trial and error is at/around 250. The same consensus was from several others who tried it as well."(Again, did the search thru the archives, zero hits.)"I know it is not YOU saying it, but will you listen to a person who has spent MANY hours doing it? If you have known this since Sept 2001, why the hell wait till now to bring it up?"(Read my posts again. Carefully, instead of just skimming, you're obviously missing something if you're under the impression I was criticizing your work or telling people what they should do. I've known about it since December of 2001, after scratching my head trying to figure it out since September 2001 (most of us in the route design forum thought it was related to the tile size limit bug), and doing a search in December 2001 turned up absolutely nothing but the troubleshooting Judd was doing. As for why bring it up now, I was working on lights, getting email about lights, found nothing in the searches about light limits.)"And yes, Splitter eng. did have wheel sparkle and handrail sparkle...but I never went that route...neither has anyone since. We discovered specular lighting...As far as offering two variations...I very often DO offer that. in fact, alot of times, I offer WAY more than that."(Seems to contradict the "edit your own files if you don't like it" attitude.)"But I light the way 98% of the folks want them....the others have to either run it the way it is, or edit them themselves."(Just when I think I got you figured out you flip the other way.)"Or ask for a "smaller version." Unlike some people, I DO do custom work."(Damn, flipped back again. Had your lithium checked?)"AS far as peeps bitching about the lights and the signals going out, I haven't seen a post about it in a long time. And I haven't heard about a person's route being blasted in a while either. If they do, usually the posts get answered, and we go on with life..I suggest reading them closer."(You oughtta see my email inbox. Nobody wants to bitch in public cuz they're afraid of setting off the sensitive artist types. Looks like they might be right.)"And as far as lighting systems with 35 lights....I have several more coming with that amount. Some less, some more, all PROTOTYOPE. Releases from NALW, CSX A-Line, and a few private ones. If a person decides to re-paint the model, it is a good thing!! If you don't want them to hurt your system, then DON'T download them!"(Okay. What happened to "As far as offering two variations...I very often DO offer that"? You can't make alternate versions for use in activities?)"Trust me when I say, this has been dealt with, and by the people who do it all the time. Am I going to quit because is screws up your activities? Not hardly! Like I said before, I see the default ones doing the EXACT same thing if you use a certain number."(I still don't quite understand this, does it depend on (A) the total number of lights seen by the player, total number of activated lights loaded into RAM, or total number of light sources whether activated or not? My thinking is it's the latter, any light source lit or not loaded into RAM, which would explain the lights going out when neither the player or the AI trains have their headlights on. Either way, ten 10 light engines = 100 total lights, ten 35 light engines = 350 total lights, not counting old freddie and the signals.)"Since you seem to want to crusade all the time, (Huh?!) and show your abilities, (?) why don't you get ahold of KUJU and try to get them to RAISE the limit, instead of bitching about the ones already done."(Sorry, whenever I can get the feedback link to actually work instead of getting "service not currently available", my first priority is that godforsaken front coupler. KUJU is under the mistaken impression that eveything's rosy after the 1.1 patch. And don't hold your breath getting them to listen to you either, they're adding more useless gee-whiz crap like passengers getting on and off trains, highly unlikely they're gonna have time to fix bugs until MSTS 6.)"If your not a part of the solution, your part of the problem."(Just what activity designers think about guys who make hollywood lights.)"I am CONSTANTLY trying to get MS and KUJU, and people involved to change the lighting thing. Until then, we are screwed. Help get it raised to make it more real instead of trying to make it more toy-like."(See above, the teeming masses want moving people and cars, not real operations.)"No matter what I say, you will NEVER agree, and you will continue to chastize and want everything changed to fit YOUR needs. You do this every time you get a burr under your saddle."(Far as I know this is the first time you and I have even crossed paths, so "every time" seems to be a bit of an exaggeration. And who is it that has the burr under the saddle?)"SO this whole thing is irrelavant. Do as you see fit. In fact, why don't you tell Nels to remove all the files with the big light counts.But here in the real world, I will continue doing the best I can do to make it real. Kinda like you try to do on your routes.And another thing, which is a little one, but in real life, a train passing you is SUPPOSED to have either a dim light, or dark. Signals DO go out, and other neat things too."(Gotta work within the limitations of the sim. When all the signals go dark, can't call the dispatcher on the radio, so the signals gotta keep working.)"But the BIGGEST thing...this is a HOBBY and is supposed to be FUN!!"(Finally something we can agree on. We are, after all, just playing with trains here. So why the hissy fit? Forget your Midol? Think I'm threatening your "job"? If it's because you don't like the way I talk, kiss my hairy ass and stay the hell out of my threads next time.)

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-05-03 AT 01:23 PM (EDT)

lmmfao!!! And you say I need medication??? God your ego is so huge, you must need a 45ft. dry van to haul it around.
and BTW, the ONLY reason we haven't crossed paths is because of restraint. You have attacked several good friends, and I stayed out of it. I see you rambling like a frickin' crazy man, and I stayed out of it. This time, it pissed me off!!Kiss your what??? Do what to your where??? LOL..sorry dude, not into charity. and ....for the record....I will go into whatever the hell post I want to. You not a fan of mine? Thank god for small wonders!!! I'd quit if you were..I don't need a egotistical maniac to hang around me. I have TRUE friends, not "groupies" Only thing I wanted to mention was the fact that my different versions contain MANY things. Sorry they aren't geared for you. I would do it for Kevin A. though......Now THERE is a real activity maker....oops, need more medicine. BTW, since when does the lights effect the WONDERFUL thing called: "Track monitor" OOPS, sorry your ABOVE using that. (and I know alot don't use it for realism....but it is there. Oh, GEE,,,that had a bug too. 800 consist limit...hmmmmmm what helped that?? A program called TRAIN STORE.....(WHich I had the EXACT same idea, but didn't know how to write the program. and before you lampoon me, I brought it up to MANY peeps before Train Store was even thought of.)Again I regress, KEEP TRYING to get KUJU to listen! OR MS, or what, your too ignorant to realize some of the peeps doing MSTS 2 work are in here and read these very posts?? I know of one for sure...you are supposed to be SOOOOOOOOO popular, you must know some too???And Sniper, I run just as much as you do in activities. Soem routes I have had little or NO trouble with lights going out. But I do admire your addition skills in adding up the lights in a consist. High school DID pay off.Gee.......I never thought of that.....Hmmmmm....when I do a unit, I am sitting there thinking of just how I can screw you and your fellow cronies in activity building. BAH!!!!Ya know, no matter WHAT is said here ..you will come back with a major drama filled response. You have done this for two years now.
I knew when I got into this, you would react just as you have done. (WHich many others have as well, and warned me before hand not to even bother.)Why am I sensitive? The hours it takes to create. I think I earned that right. Will I listen to someone tell me what is wrong with my work?? DAMN right!! many examples.....but it is from people who KNOW what the hell they are saying....not a man trying to toot his own ego in the sim. Your a "lighting expert????" Jesus, I never even called myself that.....Only my "FANS" call me that....Wow!!! I BOW to you!! Instead of the "COCONUT IDOL" we need to erect a statue of you holding a dash-9 in one hand, and a lightning bolt in the other...."OH HAIL THE IMMORTAL SNIPER.....GOD OF A BETTER WAY!!!"Me??? Affraid your gonna get my "job"???? Now THAT is funny.....sure, you can have it!!! Same pay as I get too!!! Oh god, PLEASE stop making me laugh so hard!!!When I learn a better way, I will change what I do. The new way is looking better and better. But hey there...guess what....THE TECH. wasn't there six months ago. Nor was it there last week. Not on a full scale R-T-R use. YEa, I just upload stuff with a bug issue just to piss people off. Never thought of looking for something else. And the people on here who work with me, know me or otherwise KNOW all they got to do is e-mail me with work issues, concenrs, or general BS.....I am NOT hard to deal with, and ususlly pretty damn quiet and mind my own business....Now THERE is a concept!!!When new stuff comes along to work with, you can be DAMN sure I will be the first in line to use it and experiment with it. I would like to see smaller light coding as well. WHY? Because I TRY to do better. But you just don't get it. This issue is CLOSED from me now. I have been very tactful, and very within my limits. Write me another book will ya, I need a story to give me a nap this afternoon. Like I said, talking to you or having a differnt opinion than yours will bring conflict. You win. I need more prozac. or was it Lithium...Vicodin???? No wait, I DO take Vicodin.....I give up...maybe it was a CAT scan......Hey Svante.....what do you take when Sniper says you have mood swings??? Maybe it is a road trip to Chicago...hmmmmmmmmmmm.........Elmhurst Model railroad club.....and a side trip or two..see some buddies near the CNW....on IMETREX no less....No, wait, Midol!!! Yea, Krispy Kreme DOES give me craps......better get some ZANAX as well, no wait, LSD...that will cure all!!! WOOHOO!!! Totally trippin'....Were off to see the Wizzard.....the wonderful wizzard of OZ......C'mon Sniper, sing it with me!!.....dee dum do dum de dum...dee dum dum dum dum dum dee dumLater all!
Kelley D. Ellison



CSX A-Line Chief lighting engineer
NALW Lighting engineer
Dekosoft Lighting engineer

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-05-03 AT 02:54 PM (EDT)

Alright both of you back off before you say $hit you regret, again!Sniper you're right there be dragons in the MSTS engine where it displays lights..... some real $hit code if there ever was one... and the sound stuff is even worse IMHO!Kelley you're right we should expect MS and Kuju to fix it and individual engine builders should be allowed to build to what ever standard they want to....NALW's position remains that it is up to MS to fix that problem...
not us...
We are getting a little tired of coding around their junk anyway.... Now both of you kids go sit in your corners, afore I bitch slap ya (a DC thing)Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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No harm done!! Consider it dropped!! Was done anyway...don't want to fight. Too much of it in other parts of the world to fight here at home, especially with a neighbor!!! Peace Sniper!
And Chuck, PLEASE bitchslap me..I like it I like it!!!! LAter!
Kelley D. Ellison



CSX A-Line Chief lighting engineer
NALW Lighting engineer
Dekosoft Lighting engineer

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Hey smmille1, I hope your not too mad at me and would let me beta the whole set now tat the lights and such are a go. Drop me a mail OK?thanks!!Kelley
Kelley D. Ellison



CSX A-Line Chief lighting engineer
NALW Lighting engineer
Dekosoft Lighting engineer

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Bah, if you want to go at it with Jim, go ahead. It makes for good reading. I'm not mad at anyone. So we've got one taker. Anyone else want a copy when I get around to it? I'd like to get this tested since there've been some display...umm...inconsistencies in the past, and I don't want to release it to the general public and have two thirds of the people that downloaded it emailing me asking why sometimes only one side of their loco is lit and has numbers.

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-06-03 AT 09:33 PM (EDT)

Nothing more from Sniper??????
Guess the other Lords of the Civil Engineering Department found out he'd slipped his leash and was over here stirring up us peasants in the mechanical engineering group?
And they sent a "retriever" after him....
Either that or they finally refilled his Ritalin prescription....
Good thing cause I think the peasants were getting out their pitchforks and torches....Its kinda quiet again....But it was fun while it lasted....Heh! Heh!Come on Jim you know I love to pick on ya!
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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