3d Canvas transparency question

I'm a little baffled on 3d Canvas's applying transparencies. It seems easy enough but I'm getting some odd results. Now I do know how to make transparencies with TSM and have had decent success with them. Wouldn't the same process be the same with 3d Canvas? And, do I use a different tab than the second tab (in the material box) to load them up? If someone could be so kind as to provide a 'how to' this would be appreciated. Thanks!Rich Garber

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RE: 3d Canvas transparency question, wpfan, Mar-18-03, 08:11 PM, (1) RE: 3d Canvas transparency question, controll, Mar-18-03, 09:32 PM, (2) RE: 3d Canvas transparency question, rgarber, Mar-18-03, 10:35 PM, (3) RE: 3d Canvas transparency question, controll, Mar-18-03, 10:54 PM, (4) RE: 3d Canvas transparency question, controll, Mar-18-03, 11:37 PM, (5) RE: 3d Canvas transparency question, rgarber, Mar-19-03, 00:11 AM, (6) RE: 3d Canvas transparency question, controll, Mar-19-03, 00:20 AM, (7) RE: 3d Canvas transparency question, rgarber, Mar-19-03, 00:49 AM, (8) RE: 3d Canvas transparency question, dmfire, Mar-19-03, 08:43 AM, (9) RE: 3d Canvas transparency question, rgarber, Mar-19-03, 08:56 AM, (11) RE: 3d Canvas transparency question, pwillard, Mar-19-03, 08:50 AM, (10)

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What kind of odd results are you having? There are some tutorials on the amabilis site that go over the use of transparencies. If you want to send me an email with pictures and a better description of the problem I can probably get it figured out.

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Hey Rich,The transparencies are easy to do but you need the TGA set up for it and then you need to select the section of the TGA you want to apply to the model...at this point you use the paintbrush to place the image onto the model where the transparency is to appear and that should do it for you...as far as the second tab in 3DC if you have the TGA in the view window and you left click it with your mouse then left click the selection tool (the tab with the red box on it) you will be taken to the paint area selection window and you will see the TGA file with the areas you have windows and bogies and such...place the selection box around your area to apply to the model and then click OK. Go to the model and apply it to the part you want transparent and it should work. If not leave some more info and I will try to help.Rick

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Hey Rich!Cool to see you around again! I don't get here much myself these days.Okay, so what you're describing sounds like a typical application of any texture except the TGA. Mine is a TGA.But don't you tell the cube primitive I'm applying this too that it needs to be a TransNorm like in TSM?Thanks!Rich Garber

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LAST EDITED ON Mar-18-03 AT 10:55 PM (EDT)

Rich,As far as my work has shoen it's just like applying the BMP textures except that the 3DC program takes all the transnorm effects into consideration to make it transparent...or invisible.
I haven't done too many modesl with transparenct so I may be mistaken, but in the applications of bogie I have done the invisible or transparent sections have worked exactly like I described.As long as the TGA file describes or is laid out with the correct transparency effects included....Rick

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LAST EDITED ON Mar-18-03 AT 11:59 PM (EDT)

Rich,I experimented with a window set and it came out just as I expected.If you save the TGA as ACE(Alpha) not (-alpha) then you'll be able to make windows all you want....the key is to hollow out the object you'll be looking thru or create a true section of anyshape window and then use the bucket fill tool to get it to appear transparent or translucent....the program has a setting below the specular setting for translucency and it works ok but you can just make the ALPHA portion of the TGA file into a greyish color and it will do the same thing...experiment with the darkness of the grey from completely black to just less than white...in 3DC white is the color on a TGA's alpha section that tells it to show the image thru...so a color wont just be invisible...but it will not have transparency. Anything that is grey or a shade there of will be translucent...to completely invisible.RickP.s - if you would like my experiment file with TGA and BMP then send me an email at controll@direcway.com and I will send it to you.Here is a pic of the outcome

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http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/User_files/3e77f93e17ac5f26.jpg

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Heya Rich,I'm gonna take you up on sending you the TGA. But briefly, in the lower left hand corner is a building window in which I surrounded the perimeter of the window with masking. This window only the window itself will show and the brick work behind it will come through. The window is a little odd shape so it looks like there's two masks instead of one. This is because the rest of the TGA is normal stuff, no transparencies are needed. So here's what happening.When I apply anything outside the mask, nothing is showing. The cube primitive treats it like I put something 'invisible' on it and I can see through to the underlying brick work. Now I mean anything other than the window. Oddly enough, if I put the window like on a door, then the window shows.So everything outside the window is treated as a transparency. The window shows fine. Maybe I have to put all the transparencies off into their own file. With TSM I didn't have to do that and am now wondering if this is just the way the two programs handle this differently.I'll try and post pictures here shortly.Rich Garber

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Rich,I did create two seperate files the BMP which had the actual color parts of the paint and the TGA which in this case only has the window and the ALPAH section is slightly grey.RickBut, you can do this with the TGA of any type it could contain other items like bogies or handles...Rick

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Here ya go... took me a bit...This is the original TGA file showing the masking. The red area is the see-thru, the rest should show normally.Here's the TGA in the crop window of 3d Canvas (partially cropped). Note the store front area cropped in red ready for texturing.With the area cropped, now I'm about ready to add the store-front displayBut instead, I get see-thru area. I use Corel Photopaint 9. I did this same thing in TSM and worked okay. Any ideas?Rich Garber

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Hi Rich,Have a possible solution.What size TGA are you using. If it is a 256x256 or smaller, there is a bug in 3D Canvas that will invert the transparencies when you apply the texture to the model. I had this problem with a model using a lot of transparency. The areas that I wanted to be visible weren't and the areas that were supposed to be transparent could be seen.The fix in 3DCanvas is to put a single transparent pixel in the upper left hand corner of your texture map (position 0,0) this will cause the texture to show up normally in 3D Canvas.I do believe that if you go ahead and export the model to MSTS the transparencies will be correct. The bug just makes it hard to use when actually in 3D Canvas.By the way, I found this fix in the Amabilis forum.I hope this helps,Dave F.

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LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-03 AT 09:06 AM (EDT)

Thanks Dave,I actually saw that but didn't know that would apply to this situation. I'll get back to you on this. Thanks!Appreciate the wisdom Pete.*edit* And just a few moments later... the model loaded up and without having to touch anything, the image was properly presented on the primitive! Dawg gone I thought that was a crazy solution but I'll be a cooter if it doesn't work! LOL! Thanks!
Rich G.

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LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-03 AT 08:55 AM (EDT)

It's been talked about before... but maybe it's not a set of well known facts.3D CANVAS TIDBITS
=================Tidbit #1
========
It's a well known fact that 3DC assumes that TGA file means that an alpha channel mask is in the drawing. It's a lesser known fact that you must use a BMP file if there is no alpha channel.Did you know that a BMP will sometimes USE the alpha channel from a previous TGA texture unless you clear all the texture settings before changing textures? (Click on the black "X" button before changing textures to clear it.)
Tidbit #2
=========
It's a well known fact that 3D CANVAS has *no* trouble producing ACE files with ALPHA Channels.It's a lesser known fact that that "by default" 3D CAnVAS will produce glowing textures. (Make the specularity setting non-zero to fix)Did you know that when you use an alpha channel texture in 3D CANVAS what you see in the modeler is NOT what you see in the Sim? It can block out what's behind it while showing the correct transparancy or it can invert the mask if you do not have the single top left pixel of a TGA file as a transparent mask pixel. I make sure this is the first thing I do now when creating new textures that have an alpha channel.
========================The 3DC renderer does do some odd things particularly when transparency is involved.
When you use an alpha channel on say... a truck face, 3D CANVAS will show the correct mask on the truck face, but it will not always show the wheels behind the alpha channel mask in the quick render mode, however, it will work perfectly in the SIM. This a a well known anomaly and as as long as you understand it... it will stop bugging you eventually.
Sorry, can't show an example of what I'm talking about at the moment.Pete Willard
http://www.trainsimstuff.com

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