3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?

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"3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?"

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Hack (63 posts)
Jun-10-01, 04:51 PM (EST) "3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" I'm placing the finishing touches on the F7 (A and B units). Considering the amount of time I put into the accuracy of the model, I wish to make it a commercial offering. However, I'm stumped as to what the market will bare on 3rd party content. Full support would naturally come with all paid downloads, but please consider the following...- What would you pay for a top-notch diesel model?
- How much is too much?
- If you couldn't test a model before hand, what would you expect to get in a paid package?
- If a demo is available to test prior to buying, would you be against the model being handicapped in some way?
- Should the loco have the B unit included with the initial download, or as an option?
- Should there be an option for multiple versions (ie: single/double headlight, etc.) in the same file, or separate?
- Would you pay for the model if all future skins are free?
- Should more than one skin be distributed with the model?
- If a newer version were released later, would you be willing to pay for an upgrade?Given the amount of detail in this pic, how much would you be willing to spend? Feedback, even if con payware or something I've overlooked, would be greatly appreciated. Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
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Table of Contents

Subject Author Message Date ID RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... Basman Jun-10-01 1 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... Keith_Gregg Jun-10-01 2 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... Nicked Jun-10-01 3 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... ejoiner Jun-17-01 71 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... Zero_Signal Jun-10-01 4 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... Ripbud Jun-10-01 5 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... kirby33 Jun-24-01 81 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... Hack Jun-10-01 6 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... Zero_Signal Jun-10-01 7 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... Hack Jun-11-01 8 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... stationmaster Jun-11-01 15 RE: Trademarks & Copyrights- How Mu... EMDMac70 Jun-14-01 62 RE: Trademarks & Copyrights- How Mu... Hack Jun-15-01 63 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... Ferrari355 Jun-25-01 93 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... ExpressMark Jun-12-01 34 How much you paying EMD? karldotcom Jun-11-01 9 furthermore karldotcom Jun-11-01 10 RE: furthermore Hack Jun-11-01 12 RE: furthermore deejay1020 Jun-15-01 64 RE: furthermore NickF Jun-24-01 79 RE: How much you paying EMD? Hack Jun-11-01 11 RE: How much you paying EMD? woodman Jun-11-01 13 RE: How much you paying EMD? amaraklov Jun-11-01 14 RE: How much you paying EMD? Gixxer86g Jun-11-01 16 RE: How much you paying EMD? Gixxer86g Jun-11-01 17 A Potential Problem.... Zero_Signal Jun-11-01 18 RE: A Potential Problem.... amaraklov Jun-11-01 19 RE: A Potential Problem.... ExpressMark Jun-12-01 41 RE: A Potential Problem.... Hack Jun-11-01 20 RE: A Potential Problem.... tgibson Jun-11-01 21 RE: A Potential Problem.... Gixxer86g Jun-11-01 22 RE: A Potential Problem.... Gixxer86g Jun-11-01 23 RE: A Potential Problem.... Tim13 Jun-11-01 24 RE: A Potential Problem.... amaraklov Jun-11-01 25 Our Locos Widowmaker2k Jun-11-01 26 RE: Our Locos Gixxer86g Jun-11-01 27 RE: Our Locos Lseatflyr Jun-12-01 33 RE: Our Locos Hack Jun-12-01 37 RE: A Potential Problem.... ExpressMark Jun-12-01 35 RE: A Potential Problem.... Hack Jun-12-01 30 RE: A Potential Problem.... woodman Jun-12-01 31 RE: A Potential Problem.... tgibson Jun-14-01 60 RE: A Potential Problem.... ejoiner Jun-24-01 80 RE: A Potential Problem.... Mathue Jun-11-01 28 RE: A Potential Problem.... Stew Jun-12-01 32 RE: How much you paying EMD? daledog Jun-11-01 29 RE: How much you paying EMD? amaraklov Jun-12-01 36 RE: How much you paying EMD? Joshua_Hill Jun-12-01 38 RE: How much you paying EMD? Gixxer86g Jun-12-01 39 RE: How much you paying EMD? ExpressMark Jun-13-01 49 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... Robber Baron Jun-12-01 40 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... Hack Jun-12-01 44 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... stationmaster Jun-12-01 45 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... davereage Jun-12-01 42 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... daledog Jun-12-01 43 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... amaraklov Jun-12-01 46 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... daledog Jun-12-01 47 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... Keith_Gregg Jun-13-01 48 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... Hack Jun-13-01 50 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... ExpressMark Jun-17-01 73 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... Ferrari355 Jun-25-01 94 Well.... having worked in the softw... Anthony Jun-13-01 51 RE: Well.... having worked in the s... Hack Jun-13-01 52 Shifting gears? No. That's not what... Anthony Jun-13-01 53 RE: Shifting gears? No. That's not ... Gixxer86g Jun-13-01 54 RE: Shifting gears? No. That's not ... Hack Jun-13-01 56 RE: Shifting gears? No. That's not ... Hack Jun-13-01 57 RE: Shifting gears? No. That's not ... Gixxer86g Jun-14-01 58 RE: Shifting gears? No. That's not ... Hack Jun-13-01 55 RE: Shifting gears? No. That's not ... TC Jun-14-01 59 RE: Shifting gears? No. That's not ... ejoiner Jun-17-01 72 RE: Well.... having worked in the s... Jim_ Jun-16-01 67 RE: Well.... having worked in the s... Hack Jun-16-01 68 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... EMDMac70 Jun-14-01 61 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... woodman Jun-15-01 65 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... Hack Jun-16-01 66 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... rivaldo2k1 Jun-16-01 69 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... ejoiner Jun-17-01 70 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... Hack Jun-18-01 74 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... ejoiner Jun-18-01 75 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... Gixxer86g Jun-18-01 76 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... Hack Jun-18-01 77 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... jetflyer Jun-24-01 78 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... ejoiner Jun-24-01 82 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... ejoiner Jun-24-01 83 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... bleuzzmann Jun-24-01 84 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... ejoiner Jun-24-01 86 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... bleuzzmann Jun-24-01 87 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... bleuzzmann Jun-24-01 85 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... Ferrari355 Jun-24-01 88 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... brucek Jun-25-01 89 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... christian031 Jun-25-01 92 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... bjornkeizers Jun-25-01 90 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... davereage Jun-25-01 91 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... woodman Jun-25-01 97 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... bjornkeizers Jun-27-01 100 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... bleuzzmann Jun-25-01 95 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... Hack Jun-25-01 96 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... BillH Jun-25-01 98 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... ejoiner Jun-25-01 99 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... Ferrari355 Jun-28-01 101 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... Ferrari355 Jun-28-01 102 RE: Some praise ;-) Captain Bazza Jun-29-01 103 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... X200 Jun-29-01 104 RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is... CnOForProgress Jun-30-01 105

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Basman (1 posts)
Jun-10-01, 06:06 PM (EST) 1. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" For 1 Loc?.. nothing..(check out this page http://www.fsplanet.com/best.htm very very very good Flight sim addons.. all for free..) so why should i pay for 1 loc?.. if it had Skins for every company that used `m.. sure.. maybe 5$, for Flightsim ive spent about 100$ mostly on Scenery.. like all the airports of my country.. i bought those for 15$.. wich was a 100mb Download.. and 50 od hours went into making it.
So how much would 1 diesel be worth? sure you put time into it, but a lot of people for other games do that as well.. and for free, i don`t think you`ll get a good rep by asking money for "small" addons, that within a month or so will be downloadable for free on numerous sites anyways.
Maybe i`m right.. maybe i`m wrong.
Looks cool tho.B Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Keith_Gregg (23 posts)
Jun-10-01, 07:29 PM (EST) 2. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" I agree with Basman, I wouldn't pay for one loco...I would probably pay for a complete train set that I was interested in...i.e a British rail class 37 with a full set of br carriages or coal/ballast wagons or an intercity125 with its full compliment of coaches etc. maybe packaged with some activities.
You may think that I want a lot for my money, but money in my house is hard come by and with so many modellers out there single locos should be fairly easy to get hold of. Still...nice looking engine...good luck Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Nicked (7 posts)
Jun-10-01, 09:27 PM (EST) 3. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" I also would pay nothing, the flightsim group has great add-ons planes airports realweather atc and all for free go to www.flightsim.com and check it out. Yes the engene looks great, but so does some i've downloaded for free, and most poeple, enjoy giving back to the hobby of sims. I posted austin Tx airport did 3 months of work, had over 500 downloads and only one email asking how to install it with another airport, but bata tested it on 3 diffrent computers before i posted it, and that also brings another point if you charge, you should also support the it. But most of us just enjoy giving back to the sim world what we designed, "but dont quit you day job yet". Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
ejoiner (45 posts)
Jun-17-01, 09:27 PM (EST) 71. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" Frankly, most people have no idea how to market addons.Im not convinced this is all agape love.The reason most folks do freeware is that they dont want
to deal with the hassle of being a business, however when
offerred money as a contract jobber for an addon, almost
all will gladly accept the money.I really dont buy this idealism thing. Been there...done
that. Eric Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Zero_Signal (14 posts)
Jun-10-01, 09:36 PM (EST) 4. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" I'm in the same group here. I wouldn't pay for it. It's not a slam against your work, I just don't feel the need for it if it's going to cost me. Besides, you get a great feeling of satisfaction when you release something and people congratulate you for it.I find it odd that in Flight Sim, and now apparently Train Sim, how common it is for people to make their work commercial. I spend alot of time with racing sims, particularly Sports Car GT, and you just don't see people making their projects commericial. Just as much work goes into making things for SCGT, if not more, be it making a new car or an entire track, which can take months. The people that do those, do them for the love of the game, and to add to it, not to make a profit. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Ripbud (6 posts)
Jun-10-01, 10:02 PM (EST) 5. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" Okay.
I'm one of those that are actually on the other side of the tracks... well sort of (Oh look I didn't even notice that tracks thing..LOL) Anyway, I believe that commercial quality work deserves to be paid for.I think that charging for a game addon can only be done when it's a commercial quality addon. Meaning full sets - with routes and the whole sha-bang. The thing to remember is "commercial quality". And don't expect to get $80.00 for your hard work. You have to price all that hard work to sell and if it's not wanted enough - all that hard work was for not.So... I suggest you release your single trains free unless you put a full "commercial" quality product (routes trains the whole sha-bang)out there.Otherwise I suggest you model high quality models with all the fun polygons and sell them on Turbo Squid - or one of the other model banks.While I myself would love to sell my train once completed - it wouldn't be worth the effort with all of the free models which will be released. So... Out it will go to the public as a free model... and free exposure for my skills... Not a bad trade off... Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
kirby33 (17 posts)
Jun-24-01, 06:10 PM (EST) 81. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" I agree. After years of flight sims I know there often is a significant difference in quality in addons I pay for. I would pay for an addon locomotive of high quality, including a new panel, new horn,etc.. It would be worth it for sure. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hack (63 posts)
Jun-10-01, 11:35 PM (EST) 6. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" >> Just as much work goes into making things for SCGT, if not more, be it making a new car or an entire track, which can take months. The people that do those, do them for the love of the game, and to add to it, not to make a profit.Yep - and I've spent more hours than you know with SCGT. Many of the designs and cars are the result of me and a few friends. How do you think you're able to convert the models using Tony's WRL converter? A preexisting relationship existed between me and ISI to help smooth the way on that one - not that I'm directly responsible for Tony's work, but I did play a part, albeit a small one.I did it all for free (The Sim Project) for many years, and will continue to support a free download policy on most items at 3DTrains. However, none of you pay for my server costs, and I doubt you send letters to Athearn, Kato or anyone else in the model train industry asking them to distribute their stuff for free. You might not think it the same, but it is. After all, it's a hobby, right? ;)Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Zero_Signal (14 posts)
Jun-10-01, 11:58 PM (EST) 7. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" I didn't realise that you were the Marc behind The Sim Project. How's it going with getting TSP back up? It's been down for some time now.I'm still not sold with the idea of paying for it though. I mean, if it's just the locomotive, then I'm not sure if it's worth it. However, if you get a complete package, of things, such as the engine, cars, etc, then I might think about it. Depends on if the price is right or not. If you do one in the CP colours, as pictured below, then you'll definatley raise my interest in it.(Of course, if you ever do the Royal Hudson, then you've just about gauranteed a sale ) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hack (63 posts)
Jun-11-01, 00:25 AM (EST) 8. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" A set just might be the ticket. Makes more sense, but still may offer a set of freight versions to round out the other end of things.TSP is in need of a new home. After getting a ton of new talent (SRS, GT40Steven, etc.), my host bailed on me (and hence why I felt the need to produce something along a commercial nature). Rest assured, I'll have TSP up as soon as I can - the guys at Tiresmoke are chomping to come home!Heading over to Speedsims for a peek at the latest...Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
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stationmaster (26 posts)
Jun-11-01, 03:17 AM (EST) 15. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" I expect that there will be tons of free skins and simple .eng hacks etc., but my guess is that models and routes that approach the quality of the ones in the MSTS release are going to be rare.I may be a bit biased, since I'm a commercial software developer, but I think we should ENCOURAGE 3rd party developers to invest the time and resources to make the models we want. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
EMDMac70 (17 posts)
Jun-14-01, 11:53 PM (EST) 62. "RE: Trademarks & Copyrights- How Much are they Worth?" Why would anyone pay for it? Its not like drivng a bad ride down the street or anthing. After you do buy it are gonna get your wife to check it out? How about getting mom and dad to come in and check it out? hey sis look what I bought! The models we are doing here as a comunity will be just fine im sure, so what if they are not 100% perfect, the games not either. Besides if you sell them with out paying royaltys to BNSF or CSX or NS or whom ever its copyright and trademark infringement anyways. MIne will be free. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hack (63 posts)
Jun-15-01, 05:22 AM (EST) 63. "RE: Trademarks & Copyrights- How Much are they Worth?" >After you do
>buy it are gonna get
>your wife to check it
>out? How about getting mom
>and dad to come in
>and check it out? hey
>sis look what I bought!And what did you do when you initially purchased MSTS? Surely you told whomever close to you that you paid good money for the software, so it stands to reason that anything added to it (paid for or not) would no less add to the enjoyment of trains. I just don't see the difference between the basic software and the addon - You might think of MSTS as your favorite car, and 3DTrains as the custom chrome to set it off. >The models we are doing
>here as a comunity will
>be just fine im sure,
>so what if they are
>not 100% perfect, the games
>not either.With respect to MS and Kuju, I'm betting that there will plenty of free, 3rd party content that rivals anything coming out of their shops.>Besides if you
>sell them with out paying
>royaltys to BNSF or CSX
>or NS or whom ever
>its copyright and trademark infringement
>anyways. MIne will be free. Locomotives and rollingstock will be distributed with our own paintwork (3DTrains logo), and the user will be able to download the prototype skins of their choice at no charge.Good luck - Here's to your contributions to the MSTS community. Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
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Ferrari355 (158 posts)
Jun-25-01, 12:07 PM (EST) 93. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" I love the game sports car Gt I thought people forgot about it it may not be new but sure is still fun. I love fishtailing the Bmw M3. >I'm in the same group here.
> I wouldn't pay for
>it. It's not a
>slam against your work, I
>just don't feel the need
>for it if it's going
>to cost me. Besides,
>you get a great feeling
>of satisfaction when you release
>something and people congratulate you
>for it.
>
>I find it odd that in
>Flight Sim, and now apparently
>Train Sim, how common it
>is for people to make
>their work commercial. I
>spend alot of time with
>racing sims, particularly Sports Car
>GT, and you just don't
>see people making their projects
>commericial. Just as much
>work goes into making things
>for SCGT, if not more,
>be it making a new
>car or an entire track,
>which can take months.
>The people that do those,
>do them for the love
>of the game, and to
>add to it, not to
>make a profit.
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ExpressMark (10 posts)
Jun-12-01, 12:55 PM (EST) 34. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" Fsplanet.com good example of free stuff.Just one thing you forgot to mention about FSPLANET.comThey also have payware stuff, including models.I was onced ask to do their webdesign and was given control of fsplanet combatsim site. Remember that site. Anyway, there is money being made there too. All the sites make money from advertisment, and model sells.
Yeah someone will do it for free, but that doesnt mean because it might come out for free that someone shouldnt sell there model.It was said "Yeah you got time in it, but" But what, time in it is an investment, and it drives me crazy that people on the net see time invested as nothing of value as long as someone else will do it for free the person that feels there time and efforts are worth something seem to looked at as though they break some cardinal rule or something. People, there is room for free and payware. Both, I think time is worth alot, I guess I am old fashion and believe a man is worthy of his hire.
Meaning in this context that his investment of time is worth something more than a wam bam thank you mam. Forgive the analogy, but offten when I see many post like this, its almost like treating the modelers as though their time is only worth my thank you. For some thank you maybe all the payment required, if so, then that modeler has set their price, so you owe it to them if you get their work to thank them for it, because they worked hard for it. If however, a modeler or modeling community says, are work is worth more than just thank you, they shouldnt be scrutinized for desiring what they feel there time is worth.
They to deserve to be payed for their time even as the free modeler deserves his thank you. IF paying for a model to model basis is to much for you, then perahsp other avenues can be examined, so examine them, dont just proclaim that because it will be free by someone evntually that it shouldnt be for sale now. Perhaps, you wouldnt be turned off to having a site that had all free models, as many as you would like but, that you had to pay a membership for. This would provide some rewards to the modelers and keep them working on doing better models for us to enjoy. This is examing other possibilities of which this modelr was aksing for imput into, not it will be free so why are you even considering selling. Thats not constructive, and I mean no disrespect to anyone.
The purpose of the Thread is completly lost to its intended end when people dont examine the heart of what the writer is asking. There are alot of ways to get your free models and still allow rewards to go to the modelers, there is nothing wrong with them making money from their hard work.
In fact it will help the community even more if they do get paid. As a Flightsim modelr giving models away was a blast, for awhile anyway, untill it got to everyone expecting you to give everything away. The occasional, and I mean occasional thank you got to be lacking in motivation to keep pushing out models that was taking me hundred of hours to build. We could see as I said before, a memebrship site that will promise to scrutinize all the modelers so that you only get top models, scenery addons, and so on. Or they could do a model limit downlaod, meaning you pay for 10 model downlaods at a time so to speak. There are so many ways guys and girls, that we could set a standard for the community and have fun at the fantastic level of models we get because they are getting more than just thank yous. Flightsim community? Lets consider the Flightsim community, every site out there that you get free modesl at, and I can name them all just about, they all have good and bad models, bad meaning models of low quality. But the low quality models always outweighs the good unfortunately but true. I cant begin to tell you how many models I have downlaoded that ended up being a waste of time. So perhaps a site that had a memebership area that would allow quality model access would be worth having. Or, maybe we could just figure out what a single loco model, a single Freight and passenger model and so on is worth, and set a standard we can all be happy with instead of just say FREE FREE FREE FREE Emagine telling microsoft, well somebody is going to do a freeware Trainsim so make yours free, see how long that talk will last. Comon, lets figure out a fair standard of what they are worth.Mark Branscum (ExpressMark)
Http://wwww.3Dtrains.com
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karldotcom (5 posts)
Jun-11-01, 00:31 AM (EST) 9. "How much you paying EMD?" That would be their design, you know. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
karldotcom (5 posts)
Jun-11-01, 00:34 AM (EST) 10. "furthermore" You including 50s scenery, stainless steel passenger cars, semaphores, across the Southwest desert? I might pay for that. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hack (63 posts)
Jun-11-01, 01:16 AM (EST) 12. "RE: furthermore" >You including 50s scenery, stainless steel
>passenger cars, semaphores, across the
>Southwest desert? I might
>pay for that.Passenger cars...Perhaps as a whole set (Zephyr, KC So Belle, Empire Builder, etc.).Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
deejay1020 (3 posts)
Jun-15-01, 06:13 AM (EST) 64. "RE: furthermore" Marc-
You make a quality Empire Builder set I'll be waiting with credit card in hand. Of all the trips I have taken on the rails, the Builder was, for me, the best I have been on. Especially the part through the Pass that Microsoft has created very nicely. Good luck with your work.Regards,
Dan Zollner Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
NickF (69 posts)
Jun-24-01, 03:57 PM (EST) 79. "RE: furthermore" Sign me up; I'd pay for that, Mark. I also wasn't aware that you were the guy behind a lot of the SCGT add-ons. To answer the question of what it's worth, so much depends on what's offered. I'm willing to pay for quality. The Tehachapi route you're working on is a good example. Once I know what's going to be a part of it, I'd be more willing to put a price to it. It would certainly be less than $40-$50 since you're getting 6 routes plus the program from MS, but for a complete set I don't think $10-$15 a copy would be out of line.I do like the concept of updatable skins on basic shapres, too. Any SP equipment going to be available? Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hack (63 posts)
Jun-11-01, 01:14 AM (EST) 11. "RE: How much you paying EMD?" >That would be their design, you
>know.You can call 'em and see what they say. Then talk to Athearn, Kato, Overland, etc. and ask who they talked to before releasing their models. ;)Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
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woodman (40 posts)
Jun-11-01, 01:48 AM (EST) 13. "RE: How much you paying EMD?" Of course, as you can see, I have a vested interest here<g>. But, Let's look at the situation from a supply/demand point of view. There aren't too many people who can do what Marc can do. And, there aren't too many people who have the tools needed to do the work in the first place. I just don't see a flood of accurate equipment, either cars or locomotives, in any forseeable future. Demand? Well, there is really only one sure way to find out.Mike Woodill
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amaraklov (100 posts)
Jun-11-01, 02:10 AM (EST) 14. "RE: How much you paying EMD?" Well from a developers standpoint I figure, sure flightsim has tons of free models, 1/2 of them without cockpits the other with default sounds, you really have to weed through the countless copies of Cessnas with different "Club" paint schemes to get to my all time favorite the Blackbird. Even then it took a while before a descent panel showed up and then the flight envelope was unstable, until another patch. I was 3 Patches from 3 people into the SR-71 before it was fun. Now if someone had sold the SR-71 for $10.00 with pictures on a CD or for download, Great !I bought the 747-400 from UK with the Quantas wallabe or whatever skin. And I picked what I wanted sounds? yes $4.50 or something by the time I was done I spent $15.00 for the things I wanted and not a cent more for things I didn't need.So let's say some of us DO build commercial quality models, and there are going to be a TON of dash-9's in every shape flavor or color out they are just like the Cessnas. If I make my ICE available for $5.00 and you say I want nothing more is that too much to pay ? What if you go into a model shop and you say I don't want the F40 Silver Bullet, I just want the F40 now and I'll come back next week with my paycheck and I'll but one car, and then over time I get my silver bullet. !?The way I see it I would love to see all the hard work I've put in this last week of working late hours and trying hard putting everything I've learned in my years at gaming / simulation companies to work and get something more out of it besides nice work chump, Gimme !You can already see that far to many people are requesting things they see as simple. And because it's all 1's and 0's anyhow that can fly over a wire in a heartbeat people think it's not tangible and therefore is to be had for free on the open market.I know this is an old cliché but what if you (Joe Railroad Engineer) had worked hard today, you had a coupling fail that you had to fix back into place, stayed awake so that your freight came in on time to a rail yard in the middle of BFE, and your customer MR. CEO of I'll ship anything anywhere, comes over and said, thanks for busting you hump, good job. And took over and told his buys to unload and told you to go home !? Without Pay ? Saying that you have that other job at Buger king, and that you really don't need his money to survive !? Maybe not survive but last time I looked here in America, no one is into surviving anymore ! This is capitalism ! my beamer is bigger than yours etc.. no one is satisfied with what he/she can make. And I for one want gain, if it's not monetary I want recognition or trade, I'll trade my train for yours ! Fine. But I'm not really into giving my stuff away without a fight.My personal interest in ICE right off the bat is not monetary, although it would be nice ! And I will include some info in case you feel like you got a great deal and want to give something back. I want to put myself on the map with ICE, I want to let people know that Andrei Maraklov makes Kickass models. And if he built F-12345 then I'd buy a copy ! And then I'll take orders requests etc.. but I will also charge and just like people steal from the groceries store people will steal my models and I will either ignore them or run after them, but that's my problem. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Gixxer86g (96 posts)
Jun-11-01, 06:41 AM (EST) 16. "RE: How much you paying EMD?" Over at the Hangar,Blue Arrow released a beautiful P38-J-LO as freeware.It's at least as good as a stock plane.Later they released the plane as a part of a complete package for CFS2.That was payware.If you want to get paid for that loco it should be released with a whole package.A-B-B-A set,50's and 60's era cars,route and activity.Otherwise,I'll just wait. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Gixxer86g (96 posts)
Jun-11-01, 06:48 AM (EST) 17. "RE: How much you paying EMD?" In other words I would pay a reasonable price for a great package.Even if you left out the route,it would still be good. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Zero_Signal (14 posts)
Jun-11-01, 11:56 AM (EST) 18. "A Potential Problem...." LAST EDITED ON Jun-11-01 AT 11:56 AM (EST)Something that I can see being a very real problem though is if everybody who makes a new engine wants to be paid for it. Right now, it's beginning to look like most people who are going to be doing them want something in return.Here's the problem. If every engine that comes out has a price on it, then it's going to add up very quickly. For the sake of argument, lets say each new engine costs $15 Canadian (Roughly $10 US).Think about it.Game: $80
5 new engines, at $15 each: $75Well, looks like you've almost paid for the game again. If people keep charging for things, then it's going to add up very quickly, and people will have a hard time justifying the purchase of them, particularly if they don't have a whole lot of money to spend in the first place.An idea you might want to consider though is a donation based system. If you really like the engine, then you can ask people to send $10. Surely you would get quite a bit of interest, as the model looks great. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
amaraklov (100 posts)
Jun-11-01, 12:33 PM (EST) 19. "RE: A Potential Problem...." That's a wonderful thought, but as someone already mentioned, this is a HOBBY ! you don't need to buy every engine out there, and I'm sure Roco, Lyonell, and Maerklin would love to hear your idea regarding free models.What makes us different from them is MSTS is $50.00 to get into instead of $700-$800 for s set of rails, a table and some buildings that don't amount up to more than 3 miles of track, if you're doing Z scale !And engines seems to range in price from $100-$200 for just one Engine ! and we're saying give us $10.00 and we'll give you a train plus some rolling stock files pre assembled, or even with new skins to match the typical trains you see with that locomotive.You all need to really re-think that !Everybody wants to make comparisons against Flightsim, and I say that flightsim is a perfect example, Data Becker has been making out pretty good with their little add-on franchise. And they even charge for the tools to make your own stuff, ingenious ! If you don't like the fact that you have to pay for something, make a better version yourself, I want to see what some of these people say once they've loaded 40-80 clock hours into a model !Andrei Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
ExpressMark (10 posts)
Jun-12-01, 07:15 PM (EST) 41. "RE: A Potential Problem...." Adrei I do not beleive I have seen it put more elequently than what you just said, and I would find it hard to add to your statement. So I will say I agree, thanx for the input. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hack (63 posts)
Jun-11-01, 01:16 PM (EST) 20. "RE: A Potential Problem...." To be honest, I don't see everyone jumping on the pay-for-my-item bandwagon. It's one thing to ask for $, it's a whole other issue whether the quality of the product justifies a commercial venture. I'm certain that models will eventually pour from the woodwork, but few will contain the fidelity demanded in a payware item.Also - and not meaning to knock Kuju - my models are on a whole different level in quality than the ones that ship with MSTS. In other words, anything I put my name on will be better than anything you can get from the released version of the sim. This is not simply a matter of opinion or self-absorbed chest thumping - I know that I'm not the greatest modeler since Revell, just that I've been doing it long enough to know what my capabilities are. I also know that few - if anyone - will be disappointed with the end result.Those who know my work in the sim racing arena can attest to the above statements. Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
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tgibson (26 posts)
Jun-11-01, 05:32 PM (EST) 21. "RE: A Potential Problem...." I'd be willing to pay around $5 for an A-B combo, but only if I could get the original textures so I could repaint it into any scheme I like (for my personal use). Also, if I buy the model, I should be able to buy new textures for a smaller sum ($1-2), since the model itself is "clonable".Oh, one little thing about your new shot of 347 (very nice, BTW!): The Santa Fe never had steam generators installed on their A-units, only the B's (AFAIK). So, those two steam generator details at the back of the roof should only be on B-units (the A-units did carry water, though).Hope this helps,Tom
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Gixxer86g (96 posts)
Jun-11-01, 06:24 PM (EST) 22. "RE: A Potential Problem...." With all due respect Hack,$5 might be too much for just an A-B set.Think volume.Complete the set with B units,a few different freight cars and some passenger equipment and a caboose.What you lose in price you make up for in volume.Charge too much and your work was for nothing.There's lots of WW2 aircraft that are free and better than stock.Keep in mind that most of the folks here aren't used to paying for addons.I personally won't pay $5 for just the two.Make it an A-B-B-A set with a caboose and I might.In my opinion the guys at Trainz have the right idea.Their models can bought and sold online.They will also offer unique road numbers.Don't price people out of your market. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Gixxer86g (96 posts)
Jun-11-01, 06:26 PM (EST) 23. "RE: A Potential Problem...." By the way,I want a true A-B-B-A set for proper numbering,as opposed to using the same units twice. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Tim13 (6 posts)
Jun-11-01, 07:45 PM (EST) 24. "RE: A Potential Problem...." I think that a product has to have something unique and not readily available to be of value. Train shapes are by design pretty simple with few if any visible moving parts. That fact alone will make thier virtual creation by people with the design tools (used in other game ie flight sims) quite simple. MSTS is in its infancy. If you don't release your engine as either pay or free ware, someone else will create one of similar quality. I think that you would need to include not only the engine, but also cars, sounds, adventures, routes, and scenery. Sound like a lot? Well it's what I think should be in a payware release. Value for the dollar.One loco? No more than 5 USD.Tim13 Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
amaraklov (100 posts)
Jun-11-01, 08:39 PM (EST) 25. "RE: A Potential Problem...." I personally think the people with the talent will find each other and will conglomerate to make quality models and then it's up to them weather they want to charge up the ying yang or not. Either way capitalism is all about what the market will bear, you can yell all you want about free trains and free scenery and free this and I'll only pay $5.00 for that, but when it comes down to it and all you can pick up for $5.00 is a skanky skin for a dash9 you'll be happy to pay $20.00 to get the Train the sounds and anything else the developer is willing to package with it. And if the scales begin to shift and people build quality models for free, pay people will stop making trains or will give them away as well.THIS is the beauty of capitalism, you vote with your dollar, pound, yen, mark whatever. You don't pay and the balance between quality and quantity will shift, by how much is up to the masses. That concludes my lesson on Economics 101 LOL Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Widowmaker2k (12 posts)
Jun-11-01, 08:44 PM (EST) 26. "Our Locos" I have to say the locomotives from the Big Steam Project will be 100% free of charge. We have skilled modelers too. We will introduce many large steam locos such as the Big Boy, Allegheny, Challenger, Daylight, ect. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Gixxer86g (96 posts)
Jun-11-01, 09:18 PM (EST) 27. "RE: Our Locos" Release the A-B as freeware,see how people like it. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Lseatflyr (2 posts)
Jun-12-01, 12:04 PM (EST) 33. "RE: Our Locos" I think, if it is decided in the end that this F7 will be payware, I'll be pulling my trains with a Big Boy or an Allegheny. Tony
Die-hard "Project Freeware" Flightsimmer Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hack (63 posts)
Jun-12-01, 04:02 PM (EST) 37. "RE: Our Locos" >I think, if it is decided
>in the end that this
>F7 will be payware, I'll
>be pulling my trains with
>a Big Boy or an
>Allegheny.
>
>Tony
>Die-hard "Project Freeware" FlightsimmerThere's never been a question on whether to charge, simply how much. Good luck with the steamers.Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
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ExpressMark (10 posts)
Jun-12-01, 01:11 PM (EST) 35. "RE: A Potential Problem...." That is an interesting point about Trainz.How much are there models expected to sell for do you know?And they do have the right idea, selling them!This should speak loudly to us all, that the developers see they are worth selling too! Be interested in seeing what standards they want to set for selling and the value of sets to singles.Mark
BranscumHttp://www.3Dtrains.com Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hack (63 posts)
Jun-12-01, 00:25 AM (EST) 30. "RE: A Potential Problem...." >Oh, one little thing about your
>new shot of 347 (very
>nice, BTW!): The Santa
>Fe never had steam generators
>installed on their A-unitsMike read me the law on that one last night, but then I may have to create a whole new engine with specific details to each road. PBTW, all skins will be had for free, and BMP templates will be provided to do your own (or you could request a road be done).Cheers!
Marc
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woodman (40 posts)
Jun-12-01, 01:53 AM (EST) 31. "RE: A Potential Problem...." >>Oh, one little thing about your
>>new shot of 347 (very
>>nice, BTW!): The Santa
>>Fe never had steam generators
>>installed on their A-units>Mike read me the law on that one last night, but then I may >have to create a whole new engine with specific details to each >road. P>BTW, all skins will be had for free, and BMP templates will be >provided to do your own (or you could request a road be done).>Cheers!
>MarcAs I recall the conversation, I believe I commented that I recalled reading somewhere that AT&SF F cab units didn't have steam generators. One of the curses of having been a rail fan with a library and a model railroader with a retentive memory since about a week after the invention of the wheel is that pretty soon you begin to believe your own reviews. That's how you get to be an in-house ferroequinologist for a operation like 3dtrains. Of course, I was able to back the statement up with an email from the dean of AT&SF F units, Jim Fuhrman.I've been testing the F units pretty much all day and my initial reactions have been confirmed. Marc's real good. For example, when I observe an A-B-A lash up from ground level, I don't see a lot of daylight under the frames like I do with the default MSTS diesel units. They're meaty and solid. Of course, they'll be even better when we digitize, sample and edit sounds from the premier sound archive source. Marc says they "...warble", nice phrase. Jim Fuhrman says it has to do with the resonance of the cab construction. From my cab time in WP FT's and F-3's I can say that they do sound different from the Geeps with the same engines. Microsoft built us a very nice high jump pit. Now, I'm happy to be part of a team that's gonna make sure that the standards bar stays real high.Mike Woodill
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tgibson (26 posts)
Jun-14-01, 01:38 PM (EST) 60. "RE: A Potential Problem...."
>BTW, all skins will be had
>for free, and BMP templates
>will be provided to do
>your own (or you could
>request a road be done). Glad to hear it! I'll be looking forward to having some WP F's soon. Hope that you will be doing some Alco's too! (PA's, C-628, Alligator, etc.).Tom
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ejoiner (45 posts)
Jun-24-01, 03:59 PM (EST) 80. "RE: A Potential Problem...." Any content that excites me and is of excellent
quality I personally do pay for. I would pay money
for good quality trains likeEMD F3-F7
F9
ALCO PA Any combination of the above would be good in ABBA type
form. Of course, then theres the beautiful passenger
cars that need to be produced...pullman cars. Producing
whole trains like the florida special, silver meteor, etc.
are worth money to me too! Of course, A NY to Florida
route would be AWESOME... E Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Mathue (1 posts)
Jun-11-01, 10:46 PM (EST) 28. "RE: A Potential Problem...." I dunno guy. Seems pretty darn cheap when compared to what I have invested in HO scale brass models, track, rolling stock, paint, airbrushes and time. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Stew (5 posts)
Jun-12-01, 02:32 AM (EST) 32. "RE: A Potential Problem...." Great looking model. What would I pay? I don't know yet. The sim hasn't been around long enough for me to decide I'm ready to pour out funds for add-ons. Yes I do have a lot invested in my HO equipment. From inexpensive Athearn freight cars to megabuck brass locomotives. With my HO models are pieces that I can actually take with me to a friends layout for operating sessions or to model shows where I can put my model building handiwork on display so that others can ooh and ah over them to inflate my ego. If I decide one day that I no longer want my trains I can get a reasonable return on my investment for many pieces in my collection. What's the resale value on unwanted or old software these days?If the poly count on a softmodel is high enough to bring out the details but the sim grinds to a near halt then where's the value? Stew Clark Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
daledog (8 posts)
Jun-11-01, 11:23 PM (EST) 29. "RE: How much you paying EMD?" Personally i would pay anywhere from $5-$12 for this engine. It is very nice and definatly took many hours to produce. For all the Flight simmers reading this look at Pss or Abacus and the designers like Viking_i they work hard to produce their planes and get payed for them. To the people at 3dtrains i can have a money order in the mail whenever you email me with a price alenott@hotmail.com" target="_blank">Dalenott@hotmail.com Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
amaraklov (100 posts)
Jun-12-01, 03:25 PM (EST) 36. "RE: How much you paying EMD?" Here's the story on ICE (Inter City Express)I will release a version 1.0 of the train which will include the engine, the 1'st class and the 2'nd class coaches and the restaurant. I'm still working on re-doing the sound files, and until I get an exporter for the Cab I'm stuck there.So Train Only is going to be in 1.0 and that will be freeware. 2.0 Will include cab, sounds, and an Amtrak Skin to you can cruise the northeast corridor just like the ICE did when Amtrak borrowed it from Germany for testing. And I promise you won't have to mortgage your house for version 2.0 either. I'm thinking $10.00 on pay pal or something... Hopefully someone will have done some European sections of track if not I might consider doing a stretch along the Rhine river, for download for version 3.0So for all you "Liberals" out there that think I'm the train NAZI I'm going to stick to my word and Idea that I had before I started this project and release it for free. But if you want the total package you have to pay.I'm also toying with the idea of advertising in the train (Passenger Compartment) and in the Cab to encourage registration. Nothing on the exterior to distract from the authenticity.Andrei. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Joshua_Hill (7 posts)
Jun-12-01, 04:15 PM (EST) 38. "RE: How much you paying EMD?" >Hopefully someone will have done
>some European sections of track
>if not I might consider
>doing a stretch along the
>Rhine river, for download for
>version 3.0 Ouch... I must say the track along the Rhine river is really one of my favorite train routes ever!!!... but it will not be easy task to re-create it for MSTS... so, if anybody is gonna do that... I wish him/her good luck and I promise that I'll buy it when it's finished!!! >So for all you "Liberals" out
>there that think I'm the
>train NAZI I'm going to
>stick to my word and
>Idea that I had before
>I started this project and
>release it for free. But
>if you want the total
>package you have to pay.I think it's a very nice deal u've sketched here!Josh. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Gixxer86g (96 posts)
Jun-12-01, 06:09 PM (EST) 39. "RE: How much you paying EMD?" Overall,I think that you guys should go the commercial route.I feel you should think big though,make a full pack with a route,activities,at least another type of loco,and various cars and it would be worth 20 bucks.But you should release the A-B set free to show us what you've got.I think this combination would be successful and improve the sim as a whole. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
ExpressMark (10 posts)
Jun-13-01, 02:42 AM (EST) 49. "RE: How much you paying EMD?" Dale,Thank you, you resstore my faith in fair market. lol.It really settles as this, many places are selling 3D models from planes to cars to buildings and well you name it, it is for sell out there. Example, I know of places I download 3D cars that are top notch, yet I know modelers that are selling cars that are no better than the free ones, and yet the sell without problem. It will be no different with trains. Or planes!! Or what ever!!!There is a market for them, difference is the payware products will get better, till the freeware eventually wont be able to compete with package products especially.
Same thig happened in Flightsiming, free planes by the thousands, and thats not an exageration, yet I have a friend in the midst of all the free quality planes made 10,000 off of one Plane in just over 3 months time. Does anyone think they could convince him these wont sell?No way, you should have seen how many tried to tell him not to sell His plane, make it free, give it away, selling is crazy, there are so many free quality planes. He laughed all the way to the bank. You know what, he deserved it too, it was an awesome plane. I personally will build free Trains, and give them away, but I will also have commercial trains that the free ones wont even compare to. looking forward to getting back to work, I am working on a comercial project right now that I need to finish the models for it.
So thanx for your post. Looking forward to others that appreciate the effort and wish to see the betterment of the modeling community more specifically the Trainsim community only get better.Mark Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Robber Baron (35 posts)
Jun-12-01, 06:34 PM (EST) 40. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" I don't think I would be willing to pay for a TS model either.I note that many have made the comparison between this type of modelling and what Athearn or Lionel does. There is a HUGE difference.The difference is that in the case of Athearn, their model actually involves some sort of physical manufacturing. The end result is one iteration of a physical model that exists in real space, requires use of resources in it's manufacture and distribution, cannot be duplicated easily, and herefore is difficult for individuals to produce on their own.In the case of the TS model, once the initial design has been made, the model can be duplicated and distributed almost with no cost whatsoever. Also, the model only exists in the abstract. It can be duplicated by anyone willing to take the time to do so, either by copying the actual files themselves, or by spending time with a 3D editor.So, the only thing left is the time of the initial creator. Is that time worth anything? It depends. As this is a hobby, my answer might be I'd rather take the time to build a detailed F unit myself, rather than paying someone else for the privledge.What I think might work is if there was perhaps a subscription site where members paid a modest fee and were then able to download models from the site to their heart's content, with the proceeds being shared amongst the modellers, rather than charging for each model.
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Hack (63 posts)
Jun-12-01, 08:37 PM (EST) 44. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" > There is a HUGE difference.Less than you realize. One of the differences between the two is, as you indicated, physical vs digital form. However, everything else is pretty much the same. Each required some sort of manufacturing, and IMHO, creating something in digital form is a physical manufacturing process.For example:In order for Athearn to build their model, they would need the following basics:
- A location to house the manufacturing process
- The equipment needed to build the models
- Qualified technicians to operate the equipment
- The technical data to build the model
- A method for packaging and distribution
- MarketingIn order for me to build my model, I would need the following basics:
- A location to house the manufacturing process (my house)
- The equipment needed to build the models (3D Studio Max, Photoshop, etc.)
- Qualified technicians to operate the equipment (I consider myself a qualified modeler)
- The technical data to build the model (Books, drawings, photos, etc.)
- A method for packaging and distribution (3dtrains.com)
- Marketing (3dtrains.com)>In the case of the TS model, once the initial design has been made, the model
>can be duplicated and distributed almost with no cost whatsoever. Also, the model only
>exists in the abstract. It can be duplicated by anyone willing to take the
>time to do so, either by copying the actual files themselves, or by spending time
>with a 3D editor. As you pointed out, Athearn's model is difficult to reproduce. However, I believe mine is no less difficult. While it's easy enough to obtain the needed software, it's another matter to have the knowledge and talent to execute. 3D Studio Max (and similar modeling software) is not something you learn overnight. The person behind the PC needs more than basic competence to create complex shapes and curves worthy of an accurate model.Also, let's not forget the other handicaps: The tools, as supplied in the release version, require more than a simple understanding of how a PC works.As far as costs, who pays my host for the web space for you to download my model? If the site didn't exist, then there's still the issue of blanketing the cost of this one model over the entire cost of 3DS Max - Sure, I use it for work and other things, but the time and money invested in this and my other software still came out of my pocket, not yours.>I'd rather take the time to build a detailed F unit myself, rather than paying
>someone else for the privledge.Go for it. Let see whatcha' got. BTW, I kind of like the idea of buying one model that can be replicated to my heart's content - whether freeware or payware. Makes it easier for my (virtual) railroad to grow. Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
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stationmaster (26 posts)
Jun-12-01, 09:17 PM (EST) 45. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" How much is time worth? As much as I enjoy creating 3D models, I only have time to make a handful. Being able to buy several hundred hours worth of work for a few dollars is a bargain.
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davereage (75 posts)
Jun-12-01, 08:00 PM (EST) 42. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" I must say I think it is a bad idea to charge people for locomotive or rolling stock add-ons. Ok, maybe you spent many many hours on this model, and I can appreciate that, but many flightsim developers do that too, but they do it simply because they love doing it, not so they can make any money. I must say that the engine does look excellent, but even many of the best flightsim addons are free, for example IADG's BAE-146-200/ARJ-85 and upcoming A320 (www.flightsimnetwork.com/IADG/). These are some of the best aircraft you will find for FS2000, with many months going into each (the A320 has been in production for over a year). IADG charges nothing for these, nor do many other excellent addon creators (and there are several others who create addons of the same quality as IADG).Since I believe many train sim fans are converted flight sim fans, they will be very cold to the idea of paying money for a train sim engine.Dave Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
daledog (8 posts)
Jun-12-01, 08:15 PM (EST) 43. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" did we forget these two things......
1. This is not Msfs and we are not using FSDS PRO or Commercial2. Abacus, P.S.S., Data becker, and many other independant designers charge for their planes the number is small because of the price for FSDS Commercial Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
amaraklov (100 posts)
Jun-12-01, 09:25 PM (EST) 46. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" I really wish some of these people posting here would educate themselves before they open their big mouths.3D Studio max is dammed expensive, not as expensive as Maya 18K Cough ! but Max is still somewhere around 3.5 Grand !
And those "Other" Modeling packages that me and others have been talking about, they work, for $100.00 but they're a pain to use, or they never caught on and that's why they're in the 100's and not the 1000'sI do feel so bad for those BigSteam guys, a steam locomotive has sooo much detail, that's because people back than couldn't give a .... about aerodynamics, and just put things where they made sense. It takes a LOONG time for someone to make a production level steamer over a regular dash9 or ice. Good luck guys, you're gonna need it.Andrei Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
daledog (8 posts)
Jun-12-01, 09:51 PM (EST) 47. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" Not everyone is using 3d studio max. Some who are using it payed the money, others downloaded their copy from warez sites. Then there are the people going for free cad programs like Anim8or, and I have heard of a program called Zmodeler. Now to look at Flight Simulator Design Studio. Many people bought then handed out the pro version. This is not possible with the commercial version. The commercial version comes by download only and has a special file that encrypts the plane with your id in it. As you said people need to know their info before opening their "Big Mouths". Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Keith_Gregg (23 posts)
Jun-13-01, 01:32 AM (EST) 48. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" <sigh>....what a great advert for 3DTrains....squabling on a forum....how professional. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hack (63 posts)
Jun-13-01, 03:59 AM (EST) 50. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" ><sigh>....what a great advert for 3DTrains....
>squabling on a forum....how professional.Passionate we are, and only human. ;)Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
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ExpressMark (10 posts)
Jun-17-01, 09:54 PM (EST) 73. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" Squabaling.....hmmmm

Isnt it great to be in a place where even you can speak your mind? We or I havent done anything mor than what you just did yourself.
Right? Ok, then, what is this exactly then? Its called a Forum, what is a Forum, a place to share ideas, thoughts and evaluations of anothers thoughts an ideas.
So one says they are for commercial sells of individual modesl, and they certainly deserve the right to speak there mind as you. Others say, they are against, they too should be able to communicate to the developers their feelings on this. In fact they have been some of the most helpful to me, in providing me a clearer direction of what makes an acceptable project to them. So I appreciate both sides, and yes I suppose there is an occasional person or two that will be alittle more intensive in directing their comments. Just remember they are only expressing themselves too. Uhh, Like You, Right?So just remember when all is said and done, will there be a commercial market for Trains? Well, you tell me, is there a commercial market for Planes? Let me help you on that one....YEP So, then whats the point of the question? To help us better suit the community to a fair market value so that all will get something they want for a price that best fits their means.
Ok, enough said, I must cease all my sqabaling, just kidding.Mark Branscum (ExpressMark)Http://www.3Dtrains.com
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Ferrari355 (158 posts)
Jun-25-01, 12:17 PM (EST) 94. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" I just ordered 3d studio Max lastnight for overnight shipping it not cheap! I did this all for Msts.>I really wish some of these
>people posting here would educate
>themselves before they open their
>big mouths.
>
>3D Studio max is dammed expensive,
>not as expensive as Maya
>18K Cough ! but Max
>is still somewhere around 3.5
>Grand !
>And those "Other" Modeling packages that
>me and others have been
>talking about, they work, for
>$100.00 but they're a pain
>to use, or they never
>caught on and that's why
>they're in the 100's and
>not the 1000's
>
>I do feel so bad for
>those BigSteam guys, a steam
>locomotive has sooo much detail,
>that's because people back than
>couldn't give a .... about
>aerodynamics, and just put things
>where they made sense. It
>takes a LOONG time for
>someone to make a production
>level steamer over a regular
>dash9 or ice. Good luck
>guys, you're gonna need it.
>
>
>Andrei
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Anthony (6 posts)
Jun-13-01, 04:15 PM (EST) 51. "Well.... having worked in the software/game development industry...." I'm amazed at the attitudes I see here. It honestly frightens me. ALL of the projects I've worked on have been somewhat intrinsically based. I work on a project, my interest in it grows, my invovlement increases, and my effort enlarges exponentially. And when I'm done... I've never said "Damn, this is good - I deserve money for this!" Myself, and those I work with, generally participate in a round of congratulatory handshakes and we sit and ponder on the past years of effort we've put into the project. It's not something we do "for profit." Sure, it's a job and we get paid, but we do it because we enjoy it. It's almost a hobby. Getting paid for it is just a benefit. We're proud of our work and if push came to shove, we;d rather give it away than have it be charged too much and no one buy it. I know of several games that have been "cancelled" or their ideas scrathed, only to resurface later because someone on the team kept their "hobby" alaive.The attitude I'm seeing from the guys at "3DTrains" is quite the opposite, and it frightens me that the industry might be heading that way. "I worked on this and I deserve money for it." Man, if that were the case I'd owe my kids millions for the yard work they do. Sure, if you want to charge for your model, then that's your choice. Many have pointed to the success of companies like Abaccus with their FS models and adventures. They are a great example of what CAN happen. I will also point out that because they sell an "unofficial" addon, many won't buy their products. I know my local software store (EB) has had boxes of them on the shelf for months and haven't moved a single one. Does that mean it's not a good idea? No. Does it mean that you have to give away your models? No. I'm just saying that a greedy attitude, either from the modeler or the person who wants the model, doesn't profit anyone. Think you have something that's worth buying? Then go ahead and develop it and market it. People will decide if it's worth anything. I might be interested. I'm undecided at this point. I may be. But if I'm unstatisfied, I better be able to return it and get a refund. That's business.-A Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hack (63 posts)
Jun-13-01, 05:19 PM (EST) 52. "RE: Well.... having worked in the software/game development industry...." >The attitude I'm seeing from the
>guys at "3DTrains" is quite
>the opposite, and it frightens
>me that the industry might
>be heading that way. "I
>worked on this and I
>deserve money for it." Man,
>if that were the case
>I'd owe my kids millions
>for the yard work they
>do. FWIW, I too work in the software industry. To see a post from a fellow programmer(?)/marketeer(?)/Best Buy employee(?) stating what you did frightens the hell out of me. That said, I'm going to straighten you and every other negative-nelly out on a couple of points about who we are at 3DTrains.1) 3DTrains, from its inception, is a business and is licensed in the state of California to sell products over the internet.2) There was NEVER a question of whether the F would be sold for a fee, but for HOW MUCH - My intent, from the start, was to use the F-Unit (and a few other upcoming projects) that would establish 3DTrains as a commercial 3rd party developer of quality products for MSTS and Auran's upcoming Trainz. My concern (at first) was whether the F-Unit was worthy of payware, but after a short time, it was clear that the design had real potential. I had other items in the wings to take center stage, but the F-Unit took the spot light almost as soon as I posted the first screens.3) Not all of 3DTrains content will be payware. My thoughts are that even though 3DTrains is a business first, you need to put something back to the community from which you came. A good portion, probably around 80%, of the content at 3DTrains will be public and offered at no charge. Much of this will be in the form of free downloads (locomotives, freight cars, buildings, etc.), but will also consist of tutorials and other helpful hints for those wishing to create and modify the game on their own.Since the train simulator community is relatively new, the point of this thread was to get an idea of what the market would bare. I'm not out to rip anyone off, and the last thing I want is to offer the F for $20 bucks, only to find that it should have been $5 in the first place. What would I tell my previous customers who paid $20? "Oh well...I guess we got an extra $15 outta' you chump, sorry 'bout that." This doesn't cut it for me.Whatever is sold from 3DTrains, and there will be lots to sell, you can be sure that you're getting a top-quality product at a fair price - one that's competitive without sacraficing the level of quality.Another point - We're working with other developers to ensure that the prices you find marked on our products (partly based on the feedback from this and other forums) will be in line with those at other commercial 3rd party train developers. Not only is it of benefit to the community, but it helps prevent price wars that might lead to a developer going under.For those who think 3DTrains has suddenly shifted gears in the spirit of greed, I suggest you re-read my original post.Over and out.Marc J. Nelson - Owner, 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
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Anthony (6 posts)
Jun-13-01, 05:52 PM (EST) 53. "Shifting gears? No. That's not what I was thinking." LAST EDITED ON Jun-13-01 AT 05:55 PM (EST)I read your original post. I went ahead and read every subsequent post, only to find you continually on the defensive, and as a result you came accross as only wanting to "get something out of it." That's the attitude I was referring to. I'm sure that's not your premise, but your posts (many of them, at least to me) came accross that way. If I took them incorrectly and responded harshly, I apologize for my harshness.Now, as for my statements regarding the industry... I'm not exactly sure what you do, but I've shown the posts here to a few of my office mates, and though our booth didn't get a great showing at E3 (watchout next year though!), we all had a good laugh at your comments. Thanks for the chuckle. ("best Buy employee" *snicker*)I do bid you luck in your endeavor. I suppose your zeal was being masked by a false curtain of greed. If you love your work, and feel it will sell, then great! Sell it to your heart's content. Hell, I said I might even buy it - and for a stingy fellow like myself, that's a compliment, trust me. Before I started programming I did mechanical engineering work, doing drafting and 3D part modeling. I'm well aware of the effort to create something worthwhile. (Man, I still wish I had access to ProE - THAT was a good design program.) And one last thing... don't defend yourself. You'll waste a lot more time trying to justify/defend yourself to the countless masses than it's worth. Get and read the feedback - discard what you don't like, and move on. Keep up the good work and maybe you'll find an invoice from me some day. -APS - And since your original post DID ask what was a reasonable price for your model. Personally, I'd buy an A-B-B-A unit for US$5. Throw in some routes through the southwest, maybe through California, I'd bump that to $10 or $15. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Gixxer86g (96 posts)
Jun-13-01, 06:38 PM (EST) 54. "RE: Shifting gears? No. That's not what I was thinking." Hack,are you planning an entire route to run that F7 on?I sure hope so.We really need stuff from railroading's most interesting period. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hack (63 posts)
Jun-13-01, 07:19 PM (EST) 56. "RE: Shifting gears? No. That's not what I was thinking." I created a line intended to follow the Clinchfield RR. However, considering the lack of DEM support (well, at least none have reported finding the Holy Grail in solving GIS importing), I'm going to use it to experiment with a way of creating a route through 3DS Max, and then using the resulting file to use in the Route Editor.Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
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Hack (63 posts)
Jun-13-01, 07:33 PM (EST) 57. "RE: Shifting gears? No. That's not what I was thinking." Eh...I suppose I should answer the question. Yes, a route is planned (just not a sure thing ATM) - most likely be based on the Clinchfield (or a slice of it), but offered as freeware - mainly due to the fact that the resulting accuracy can't be verified.Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
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Gixxer86g (96 posts)
Jun-14-01, 06:18 AM (EST) 58. "RE: Shifting gears? No. That's not what I was thinking." Interesting choice.The Clinchfield had F-7 A&B's,GP-38's and SD-40's.I would like to see it completed. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hack (63 posts)
Jun-13-01, 07:17 PM (EST) 55. "RE: Shifting gears? No. That's not what I was thinking." >And one last thing... don't defend yourself.Good advice, thanks.Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
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TC (26 posts)
Jun-14-01, 09:24 AM (EST) 59. "RE: Shifting gears? No. That's not what I was thinking." Hi Marc,
I too believe it is up to the user to determine if they want to purchase a product or go with freeware. For myself I am ready to buy, any chance of seeing a pic an "A" "B" "A" configuration.?Thanks, Tony
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ejoiner (45 posts)
Jun-17-01, 09:38 PM (EST) 72. "RE: Shifting gears? No. That's not what I was thinking." For the price named in the previous post...5 bucks should be a cash price. If you want a credit card, then pony up for your own convenience and plan on adding another 5 bucks in carrying and infrastructure charges. You also forget the value of the developers time and the fact that commercial products need a profit to sustain future goods. Hence 15 bucks is FAIR. Actually, what should happen, is that the quality addons should
wind up on a CD in compilation in order to provide the abundant
value that people want to pay for. Individual downloads wont get
it done...nor can the merchant sustain the credit card option for
that low price. There has to be middle ground here. I get pretty irritated with the idea that people whose work is clearly the best around isnt worth paying for. If its not..then the market isnt worth serving. My suggestion is that Marc do some R&D on this market before he wastes any more time on the group. Perhaps this thread will serve as that.
Eric
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Jim_ (1 posts)
Jun-16-01, 07:12 AM (EST) 67. "RE: Well.... having worked in the software/game development industry...." "I'm amazed at the attitudes I see here." I agree with you 100%. In my 12 years of flight simming I have never seen a post like this. It's a first and hopefully the last.Hack, leave your ego outside.Jim
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Hack (63 posts)
Jun-16-01, 02:08 PM (EST) 68. "RE: Well.... having worked in the software/game development industry...." This was put to rest days ago.Marc Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
EMDMac70 (17 posts)
Jun-14-01, 11:38 PM (EST) 61. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" This site itself is free for us and I want to thank Nels for the hard work put into it. It has a lot of members and there is a lot of us that will be making a lot of locomotives, cars and cabs for msts. When my models are done they will be free. FREE FREE FREE. I want everyone to enjoy this game and I dont need the money anyways or I wouldnt be sitting here in my spare time working on this stuff, I would be getting a job and making myself a few bucks. I have done trucks for Monster truck madness 2, models for kingpin, heavy metal, Counterstrike and now I am working on 2 for MStS. One is a bigboy 4-8-8-4 and the other is a wreck crane with operating boom and worklight. (what ever to do with the two options I have no Idea but they will be there. I cant wait to see some of my stuff re-skined with crazy colors or diff railroads or what not. As for paying I dont think we need to be here on Nels site trying to get paid unless he's gonna see some of the profits anyhow. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
woodman (40 posts)
Jun-15-01, 05:48 PM (EST) 65. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" >As
>for paying I dont think
>we need to be here
>on Nels site trying to
>get paid unless he's gonna
>see some of the profits
>anyhow. I'm a little confused. Is it your contention that discussions of for profit add ons shouldn't take place in this forum? Or, is it that if they do, Nels should be cut in on the action?Best of luck in your efforts.
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Hack (63 posts)
Jun-16-01, 00:29 AM (EST) 66. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" And what about the ads displayed at the top of the forum page? ;)Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
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rivaldo2k1 (2 posts)
Jun-16-01, 02:13 PM (EST) 69. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" I have downloaded your ICE train...its very good. But no matter what the quality of trains people produce I just WONT buy them. There will be plenty people who will release freeware. Yes they might be slightly worse but there free!There is only 1 thing i am willing to pay for in trainsim.....that thing is addon routes. Simple as that. They are the only thing that warrent buying. Create some of those (especially UK or European ones!-and modern day) and i will have my Credit Card at the ready!Thanx all
Ian Smith
www.2fly.cjb.net
----------------------
NEW!! IN PROGRESS!!!!!www.ianrivaldosmith.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Trainz/index.htm
----------------------
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ejoiner (45 posts)
Jun-17-01, 09:24 PM (EST) 70. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" Dear Marc,first, congratulations on your work. its excellent.I spent some 5 years running a company called Game
Tool Technologies, LLC that was a specialist at gaming
addons. I have the following opinions.1. So long as there is quality freeware, the payware market
will be limited...unless you have some extraordinary value
that customers cant get anywhere else.2. Sim customers that are qualified to buy...namely have
a credit card...are inclined to buy...and use the sim you
want...are rare in number. Not sustainable as a business
unless you support many different games, or this is a side
line.3. Children abound in these groups. They have no ability
to buy and will pirate you in a heartbeat. No accusations
here toward the youth in the audience, but its true based
on experience.4. The retail price of the sim has bearing on the amount you
can charge. We found once upon a time...that it was difficult
to offer product with a visa/mastercard option and charge less
than 15.00 USD per download. However when the sim is 45.00
USD, people will argue about value for money. In fact, the
value is the convenience of the credit card payment. Most
addons could be priced lower if the credit card stuff wasnt so
expensive.5. Best bet...do some freeware. Get people REALLY believing
in your quality, then sell them a CD with the real goods. If
you do this, there are other options to get you on the store shelf.All the best...keep the faith dude.I went freeware. Check my site. http://aluminumcloud.comEric Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hack (63 posts)
Jun-18-01, 00:08 AM (EST) 74. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" Hi Eric,1) When the F-Unit's done, I challenge anyone to match the final results. The number of hours spent creating a whole new locomotive (model, cab, sounds) would be quite a task. However, I'm sure there's someone out there willing to give it a go, and I hope it's a good one. 2) Not so. We'll make the files available so you can use a cyber-cheque. If one is so inclined, they can also send in a money order for a CD of the product(s).3) See #2 above. 4) Tell this to the folks at Abacus. Abacus typically charges $10 for a single plane for a software (MSFS) that costs about $45 to $60. $5 to $10 is reasonable for train items - at least those I wish to sell.5) Freeware's coming, but so's the payware. Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
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ejoiner (45 posts)
Jun-18-01, 00:15 AM (EST) 75. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" Good luck dude. I will be watching to buy your stuff.
Especially that EMD Super Chief. Lemme know if you need
any beta testers!!!Eric
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Gixxer86g (96 posts)
Jun-18-01, 06:35 AM (EST) 76. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" Marc,check out some of the stuff Eric has been involved in.It's better than Abacus. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hack (63 posts)
Jun-18-01, 11:35 AM (EST) 77. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" From the looks of the screen shots, I would have to agree - outstanding work Eric!I should point out however, that the site isn't 100% free. In order for someone to download one of Eric's creations, they must first go through a couple of pages containing banner ads (about 10 per page). While the model gives the apearance of being free, it is actually being paid for by the advertizing on the site. Eric is simply using an indirect method to support the cost of being online, plus put some extra cash in his pocket. ;)Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
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jetflyer (5 posts)
Jun-24-01, 03:43 PM (EST) 78. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" I know I am late in responding to this topic, but I just want to put my two cents in. I think you should make more than one release, a free one, containing just the locomotive with no cap or sounds, another release with cab and sounds and some cars of the era for around $5, and a full release with everything mentioned before, plus a new route and some activities. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
ejoiner (45 posts)
Jun-24-01, 06:23 PM (EST) 82. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" ALL that stuff for a measly 5 bucks? Wow...Eric Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
ejoiner (45 posts)
Jun-24-01, 06:26 PM (EST) 83. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" Actually, the banner ads cost you nothing. Yes,
you have to view them, but they cost you nothing
to access my work.The money being made there is by playnet. Im required
to have the banners in order to be given the web
space and the download bandwidth. Given that this
bandwidth etc benefits the end user, this really is
free.costs me nothing to put up the site other than my
time...costs you nothing to download, other than
perhaps the very minor expense of waiting on the
banners.A fair trade by most accounts. In any case, I support
shareware for quality work. I just dont want to
fool with the support and accounting necessary to
deal with that for the few bucks involved. Eric Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
bleuzzmann (36 posts)
Jun-24-01, 07:12 PM (EST) 84. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" I strongly adhere to the concept of FREEWARE. As one of the team of 3 designers of some major Flight Simulator scenery addons, which underwent more than one edition/version update for both FS98 and FS2K......we NEVER went as payware. Frankly, there will be some who ask for a few dollars for their efforts, and there will be those who won't pay. Why? Because someone will come along with an offering EQUAL to or BETTER soon enough. Right now you've got $$$ signs dancing in your head precisely at the time when you've completed many hours of design you're proud of. You're thinking "let's see....if everyone who wants this locomotive will send me $5, surely there will several hundred out there who will....hey, that's a tidy sum!" But with that you're guaranteeing that your locomotive will load easily on EVERYONE'S machine, that it won't have ANY flaws and that 100% of everyone who buys will have ZERO problems. Won't happen BUT since you've made it payware you have to stand behind your product. You can't put it out there saying "It's only $5, so there's no guarantees". Bull. Frankly...after dangling the carrot the past few days with screenshots promising the F7, and building a base of folks who're looking forward to its release, and then yanking the carrot back...I think you're showing some greed here. But you won't be the first...or the last to do so. My opinion..free.bleuzzmann Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
ejoiner (45 posts)
Jun-24-01, 08:01 PM (EST) 86. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" Ya know..everything has a value. If this or any other work
has none to you...then dont buy it. No guns being held to your
head..(is there?)Price can be free...or price can be a million bucks. But if the
thing is WORTH a million bucks to you, then you'll pay the price in exchange for the value of the item.Dont begrudge a guy for trying to cover costs. You also seem to ignore the HUGE economies of scale that
microsoft employs to get the price where you get to buy it
at 30 dollars or whatever. Millions of copies of software
of all kinds as well as huge promotional budgets allow them
to do that. incrementally there is no comparison. reduce that down to one guy trying to cover his server costs,
possibly the ability to give you the convenience to use a credit card, the admin hassles, and the value of his own time, and you
can see how a price of 10 bucks or so becomes almost zero.I ran a business doing just this for 5 years. I know the economics. Aint any mercedes benz's being bought with this
stuff.Eric Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
bleuzzmann (36 posts)
Jun-24-01, 08:27 PM (EST) 87. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" >Dont begrudge a guy for trying
>to cover costs. No one held a gun to Marc's head either when he bought his 3d design program. What costs? His time? Marc prefaced his comments with "given the time it's taken to produce this model"...
Believe me...I'm NO stranger to how much time it takes to produce an add-on..I had been doing it since FS4. But this idea to charge probably didn't take shape until someone in the original thread mentioned having "my credit card ready". I could have charged too...but didn't. We gave back to the flightsim community with add-ons that adhered to the 'open-architecture' concept Flightsimulator and now MSTrainSimulator championed. >reduce that down to one guy
>trying to cover his server
>costs,
>possibly the ability to give you
>the convenience to use a
>credit card, the admin hassles,
>and the value of his
>own time, and you
>can see how a price of
>10 bucks or so becomes
>almost zero. Server costs? He could post all the freeware he wants right here on Train-Sim. Doesn't cost Marc a dime. Nels' site is paid for with advertisers. Marc might consider adding advertisers to HIS site to amortize the costs of maintaining a server. Now, that said, let me state I don't have a quarrel with Marc and my comments are not directed at him. I'm simply somewhat a believer in the freeware concept being in concert with Microsoft's stance on open architecture for the sim. Marc, if you want to charge for the model, it'd better be modest and even the $10 mentioned above is too much. You'll make better gains selling more widgets at less money...than a few at higher $$. Cripple it as a demo? Nope. I and I'm sure others DESPISE crippleware. Likewise, pasting little advertisements like "Freeware model only--Buy the real deal at ___" across the cab panel is also despicable.Over the time I was involved with Flight Simulator I think I purchased maybe $60-75 dollars in add-ons...but they were full ranged total packages, not a single locomotive or plane. They were full planes with moving parts, highly detailed panels, full sound packages and free upgrades. Cost was typically 10-15 bucks. Bought an installer/archiver package that'd properly install all the planes, panels, sounds, sceneries, activities, etc. in one package -- another $15. But they were exceptional. Marc's work looks like it is too....but it'd have to offer a full package...train, route, maybe an activity to merit equal pay.
bleuzzmann Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
bleuzzmann (36 posts)
Jun-24-01, 07:24 PM (EST) 85. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" Ya know...I have to weigh in again on this...because it's starting to grate on me....I paid only $29.95 at Best Buy for MSTS within the first week of it being released. Should anyone pay say $7.50 for this locomotive (and I'll give Marc a huge amount of credit because it's a excellent model) that's 25% of the TOTAL price of the original game. For ONE locomotive addon. Given that most will certainly want a sizeable number of locomotives, sceneries, and rolling stock...if EVERYONE did this it would get ridiculous fast.Where does one draw the line?
New locomotive model like Marc has done: $7 ??
Repaint of an existing MSTS loco (has to be easier than a new design like Marc's right ?? : $ 3.50??
Track by the mile?? By the amount of scenery objects placed?
Activities paid for by the amount of play time??No Sale. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Ferrari355 (158 posts)
Jun-24-01, 09:34 PM (EST) 88. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" Whoa is that how it will look in msts? nice!! was that done by 3d studio Max? Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
brucek (30 posts)
Jun-25-01, 00:58 AM (EST) 89. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" Marc, please excuse my puzzlement, but the textures onn the side of your F7 look remarkably like those on the side of the Trainz F7!I've only recently wandered into this Trainsim.com forum and, as you are aware, I have already expressed interest in your F7 for MTS.But I'm a bit confused as to whether you've created this from scratch or are using another product's skin.Can you clarify this for me?Regards,
Bruce. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
christian031 (9 posts)
Jun-25-01, 11:52 AM (EST) 92. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" Do you really think Auran were behind the *original* design of Santa Fe's F7?? I don't think so. /Christian Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
bjornkeizers (4 posts)
Jun-25-01, 07:49 AM (EST) 90. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" I also wouldn't pay a cent.Let's remember this is very new technology; I can understand you want to make a buck, but since we don't even have a handfull of scratchbuilt loc's, I don't think this would be a good thing for the community.Give freeware designers a chance; then bring on something even better that people would be willing to dish out for. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
davereage (75 posts)
Jun-25-01, 11:51 AM (EST) 91. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" One point I'd like to bring up: Look at the excellent work by Kevin C. on his Switchers. These look just as good as the F-series engines, and don't cost a cent. They may not have a cab or sounds, but in my books thats ok as long as the engine looks good and performs well.Cheersdave Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
woodman (40 posts)
Jun-25-01, 05:17 PM (EST) 97. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" >I also wouldn't pay a cent.
>
>
>Let's remember this is very new
>technology; I can understand you
>want to make a buck,
>but since we don't even
>have a handfull of scratchbuilt
>loc's, I don't think this
>would be a good thing
>for the community.
>
>Give freeware designers a chance; then
>bring on something even better
>that people would be willing
>to dish out for. Gosh, I'm confused yet again. Are you saying that there should be a moratorium on paid development until freeware designers have had a go at the demand? Of course I'm biased but, we'd like to offer our for pay products, along with the freeware on our site, and let the market make the decsions. Mike Woodill
http://www.3dtrains.com Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
bjornkeizers (4 posts)
Jun-27-01, 08:52 AM (EST) 100. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" Well mr. Woodill, If we only get a few loco's, and we have to pay for those, then that's another incentive for freeware designers to go payware . If all freeware designers go payware... where would we be then? Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
bleuzzmann (36 posts)
Jun-25-01, 01:39 PM (EST) 95. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" How much....hmmm, I went back and took a look at the 'wish list for MSTS locomotives'. There were about 30 responses....I only counted ONE F7. There were a couple of E8's and one E9 but price has to be tied to demand too. So if indeed this goes payware...the price should be very reasonable and not a huge percentage of MSTS's original price. 10% would put it in the $5 range for an AB unit in GENUINE livery. I've seen posts to the effect already that any demo or freeware unit will be in generic or 3dTrains livery. Whatever that is...it's fictional and that's NOT what simulation should depict. (I never liked sceneries in FS that were 'fictional' islands or 'fictional' airports). Simming should, as FS stated, make it REAL. Let's hope Marc decides to offer a genuine livery such as his depicted Sante Fe, and at an introductory price for a new offering, complete with cab views and sound. Anything else would be contrary to the open architecture concept that Microsoft put MSTS out as....to encourage development and sharing of rolling stock, activities, scenery, and routes. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hack (63 posts)
Jun-25-01, 03:39 PM (EST) 96. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" The loco will carry the generic paint to help avoid the "Onion Pacific" fiasco that occurred some weeks back. We'll still make prototype skins available for free download, so you'll be able to eventually get what you want.Download the skin (or skins) of your choice. Getting tired of an AT&SF fleet? Replace them with B&O livery without extra cost. This should also promote others to create F and E paintwork and distribute the skins without restrictions from 3DTrains. Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
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BillH (20 posts)
Jun-25-01, 10:19 PM (EST) 98. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" absolutely nothing, I believe it is illegal to charge money for a train you make without licensing it first from microsoft. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
ejoiner (45 posts)
Jun-25-01, 10:58 PM (EST) 99. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" Creation of original work that complys with standards published by a game maker does not imply piracy nor copyright infringement. If someone took MS's default engine (say GP38 and
BNSF skin) and tried to sell it, then that would be a legal problem. OR if somebody took an MS proprietary code base and tried to sell it, that would be an issue.However, if you create an engine, or anything else that simply
complies with a standard using your own art talents, then its only original content. MS is quite cool with that.Please keep in mind that the richest simulation brand in history is MS Flight Simulator. This is a 20 year old simulation whose growth is based on 3rd party development...coming originally from Bruce Artwick Organization (BAO), which MS bought. They typically do gaming by acting primarily as a publisher and distribution channel...such as this Kuju game. MS appreciates third parties by now. Trust me...the only reason I have a Beta
of MS FS2002 is because I develop serious content for MS CFS2.Eric Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Ferrari355 (158 posts)
Jun-28-01, 03:46 AM (EST) 101. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" lol before it was red now it's a purpley color
>I'm placing the finishing touches on
>the F7 (A and B
>units). Considering the amount
>of time I put into
>the accuracy of the model,
>I wish to make it
>a commercial offering. However,
>I'm stumped as to what
>the market will bare on
>3rd party content. Full
>support would naturally come with
>all paid downloads, but please
>consider the following...
>
>- What would you pay for
>a top-notch diesel model?
>- How much is too much?
>
>- If you couldn't test a
>model before hand, what would
>you expect to get in
>a paid package?
>- If a demo is available
>to test prior to buying,
>would you be against the
>model being handicapped in some
>way?
>- Should the loco have the
>B unit included with the
>initial download, or as an
>option?
>- Should there be an option
>for multiple versions (ie: single/double
>headlight, etc.) in the same
>file, or separate?
>- Would you pay for the
>model if all future skins
>are free?
>- Should more than one skin
>be distributed with the model?
>
>- If a newer version were
>released later, would you be
>willing to pay for an
>upgrade?
>
>Given the amount of detail in
>this pic, how much would
>you be willing to spend?
> Feedback, even if con
>payware or something I've overlooked,
>would be greatly appreciated.
>
>
>
>
>Cheers!
>Marc - 3DTrains
>http://www.3dtrains.com
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Ferrari355 (158 posts)
Jun-28-01, 03:48 AM (EST) 102. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Captain Bazza (17 posts)
Jun-29-01, 01:53 AM (EST) 103. "RE: Some praise ;-)" The arguments for and against payware versus freeware are emotive, so I must congratulate Marc/Hack for his polite and erudite responses to the various posts.There is no doubt of the quality of his product, because I have been privileged to test one of the early versions. I would certainly be tempted to (budget 'n VISA balance permitting) purchase a trainset, providing the price was reasonable.If I should ever get my own creations onto the 'net they will be freeware, that's my choice. I respect Marc/Hack's choice to distribute his product as payware. Freedom of choice; so what's the conflict? Don't let the computer WIN! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
X200 (1 posts)
Jun-29-01, 10:58 AM (EST) 104. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" I'd have to say that YES I would pay for a decent commerical quality model, in some cases even if its just one loco.. as long as its complete, with cab, NEW sounds etc.. so that the first time I load it up, I am impressed to hear the new sounds and see the new cab.. and in some cases having fun figuring out the controls of a locomotive that doesnt have the same cab as the default TS locomotives.. with that in mind.. I dont think I would pay for any "electronic product" but even if the cost was slightly more, I would very much like to be able to purchase a locomotive/trainset with a proper CD case, with a picture of the model contained on the CD on the cover, spine and back of the CD case.. buying a well done 3d model in its own CD case with appropriate case art would be no different than buying and displaying plastic models I have brought and I would be just as proud and happy to have a CD rack full of models I have brought as I would be having my plastic HO models on a shelf..
of course keeping in mind I am australian thus the price of a locomotive or trainset from any american designer would be almost double the cost and my current lack of credit card would have to be overcome by the vender.. but all in all.. paying for a GOOD quality loco or locomotive set with new sounds and a correct cab is a thing I would do, and at the same time if I find any free models to download I would do so if I liked em.. I am neither siding with the freeware argument or the money for model side.. if I like it.. i'd buy it.. if I dont.. I wont and I dont really see why some people have to argue almost aggressively about the subject, you have as much freedom of choice weather to buy something or not to buy something as I and all others do.. and remembering something that was said about TRAINZ when they decided to charge for there models.. buying virtual models is a whole lot cheaper than paying 230 dollars for a little 81 class HO locomotive that has the same workings and everything as any other model with the only exception being a little plastic shell.. no noise, no sound, no smoke (unless there run too fast) and no cab views.. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
CnOForProgress (12 posts)
Jun-30-01, 01:41 AM (EST) 105. "RE: 3rd Party Content - How Much is it Worth?" My feelings on this subject are simple...
I would pay, but I want my moneys worth. I want to get the whole deal, A and B units, at least a few different schemes, and at least some cars to go with it... like your flatbed set or some boxcars, or something else. I would pay for just engine, but it would have to be an awesome engine. It all depends on who the buyer is though. If this is someones favorite loco, sure, they're going to buy it. If someone made an allegheny, i'd buy it hands down. And this one looks beautiful, so yeah, i'd buy it. No more then 10, but 5 sounds fair. That's what most Flightsim planes go for. But it all depends on the consumer.
Dave Foster
CnO For Progress Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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