German Coupler Incompatibility

I've downloaded the recent German 1st and 2nd class pax cars, db_202am and db_203am, and I get the "incompatible coupler" message when trying to put them behind German locos. Does anyone know which loco these are compatible with?

bud

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RE: German Coupler Incompatibility, trainfreak2000, Dec-14-02, 07:52 PM, (1) RE: German Coupler Incompatibility, TedB, Dec-14-02, 09:16 PM, (2) RE: German Coupler Incompatibility, sooner, Dec-14-02, 09:24 PM, (3) RE: German Coupler Incompatibility, mjs2101, Dec-15-02, 01:09 AM, (4) RE: German Coupler Incompatibility, sooner, Dec-15-02, 02:21 AM, (5) RE: German Coupler Incompatibility, dvdhoven, Dec-15-02, 03:45 AM, (6) RE: German Coupler Incompatibility, sooner, Dec-15-02, 09:34 AM, (7) RE: German Coupler Incompatibility, dvdhoven, Dec-15-02, 10:11 AM, (8) RE: German Coupler Incompatibility, mjs2101, Dec-15-02, 11:31 AM, (9) RE: German Coupler Incompatibility, Roman, Dec-16-02, 07:06 AM, (10) RE: German Coupler Incompatibility, sooner, Dec-16-02, 12:17 PM, (11) RE: German Coupler Incompatibility, cjmaclean, Dec-16-02, 03:04 PM, (12) RE: German Coupler Incompatibility, Roman, Dec-16-02, 05:41 PM, (13) RE: German Coupler Incompatibility, sooner, Dec-16-02, 09:36 PM, (14) RE: German Coupler Incompatibility, cjmaclean, Dec-17-02, 09:37 AM, (15) RE: German Coupler Incompatibility, sooner, Dec-17-02, 09:56 AM, (16) RE: German Coupler Incompatibility, oldiedaddy, Dec-17-02, 10:30 AM, (17) RE: German Coupler Incompatibility, cjmaclean, Dec-17-02, 10:57 AM, (18) RE: German Coupler Incompatibility, mjs2101, Dec-17-02, 12:08 PM, (19) RE: German Coupler Incompatibility, sooner, Dec-18-02, 01:10 AM, (23) RE: German Coupler Incompatibility, ctillier, Dec-19-02, 12:51 PM, (28) RE: German Coupler Incompatibility, cjmaclean, Dec-19-02, 01:26 PM, (29) RE: German Coupler Incompatibility, dvdhoven, Dec-17-02, 01:13 PM, (20) RE: German Coupler Incompatibility, cjmaclean, Dec-17-02, 03:10 PM, (22) RE: German Coupler Incompatibility, Roman, Dec-18-02, 05:13 PM, (26) RE: German Coupler Incompatibility, dvdhoven, Dec-17-02, 01:25 PM, (21) RE: German Coupler Incompatibility, obo, Dec-18-02, 12:55 PM, (24) RE: German Coupler Incompatibility, cjmaclean, Dec-18-02, 02:25 PM, (25) RE: German Coupler Incompatibility, dvdhoven, Dec-19-02, 12:20 PM, (27) RE: German Coupler Incompatibility, obo, Dec-20-02, 01:12 AM, (30)

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Try poking about in the wag. file and look for automatic coupler etc etc change them both to what you want them to be.
Also have a look through some of the help files or email the author

Hehehehe Im bored

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ConBuilder will show the coupler type for both the engine and the wagon. It'll let you change either right from its window. Select the piece you want to change in the windows on top. Down in the bottom left of the window is a box with the symbol for both an engine and a wagon. Left-click on the symbol that you have selected above, and it'll bring up a work box for you to make any changes in.Ted

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-02 AT 09:25 PM (EST)

Thanks, though I was looking at this more as a prototype issue; i.e., is the author trying to tell us something about the original cars? Maybe they're not supposed to work with the engines I've tried. Some European car models specify chain couplers, for instance. Here there's no mention of coupler type in the description in the file library. Anyhow, I think I've seen photos of pax cars very like these behind locos very like the ones I'm using - so I just wonder if there's a problem with the model. Can't tell from the readme ... it's in German.

bud

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As far as European trains go, prototypically they all use chain couplers with the exception of Russia and the CIS (former Soviet Union) who use an automatic coupler similar to NA.
However when downloading engines and cars for European railroads, some designers will stick with prototypical couplers while others will use automatic couplers. This means that the downloader needs to check the wag or eng file to ensure that cars have the same couplers. But fortunately as mentioned, it is not hard changing the types of couplers. Hope this helps answer your question.Mykel

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Thanks, Mykel. I appreciate your help. As far as the cars in question are concerned, I notice the .wag files have these lines relating to couplers: Coupling (
Type ( automatic )
Spring (
Stiffness ( 2e7N/m 0 )
Damping ( 0.2e7N/m/s 0 )
Break ( 4e7N 0 )
r0 ( 1cm 1e9 )
)
CouplingHasRigidConnection ()
Velocity ( 0.1m/s )
)while the E1812_10 loco has the following lines in its .eng file:Coupling (
Type ( chain )
Spring (
Stiffness ( 2e7N/m 0 )
Damping ( 0.2e7N/m/s 0 )
Break ( 1e7N 0 )
r0 ( 0.1 1e9 )
)
CouplingHasRigidConnection ()
)I infer, from what you've said, that the passenger cars only have to have the "automatic" entry changed to "chain," so I'll give that a try. But why designate different kinds of couplers when there's no operational difference in MSTS?

bud

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Hi,I like to be some nitpicking on this one.
Not completely correct.
Automatic couplers are used in many European Countries for very heavy freight trains. Many of the European iron ore hoppers have automatic couplers. Sometimes the engine has an automatic coupler too, otherwise a special car is used with a chain coupler on one site and an automatic coupler on the other site.
On the line running from Kiruna to Narvik, all the iron ore trains use automatic couplers.And in passenger traffic, in most European countries, the EMU's and DMU's have an automatic coupler.Dick van den Hoven

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Thanks, everybody, for the advice on editing the coupler line, and also for the information on Eurpoean real-world operations. What still baffles me is why the game even gives you an option for coupler types, since "chain" couplers in the game are automatic!

bud

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>Thanks, everybody, for the advice on editing the coupler
>line, and also for the information on Eurpoean real-world
>operations. What still baffles me is why the game even
>gives you an option for coupler types, since "chain"
>couplers in the game are automatic! I suppose it is, to put some real world experience in the game.
There are different sounds for the coupler types too.But I don't like this restriction of the playability and put my couplers to Automatic.Dick van den Hoven

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Hey Dick van den Hoven,
Thanks for the heads up! I did not know that Europe also used automatic couplers as well as chain. I admit my experience with European rail is pretty limited, mostly traveling by train from Warsaw to Moscow several times, and a short visit to southern Germany in the late 90's. Learn something new everyday!
Guess this means I need to pay more attention to what I am downloading! Question, the special car used to go from automatic on one end to chain coupler on the other, what is this? Is it similar to a box car, flat?? Simply interested in having a similar car in my roundhouse. Thanks again for the info, and Happy Simming!!!Mykel

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Hi Mykel,maybe I can put some light to what Dick has said. the predominant coupler type in europe is chain. Belonging to freight trains the ratio is almost 100 percent. There are very limited exceptions.
One of those was a special train with tank cars running from the east through former GDR ending in Hamburg Wilhelmsburg. This train uses russian Type automatic couplers and had a 2 axle tank car at the end to change couplers to the standard western europe chain coupler.
An other well known exception ist the entire iron ore railroad from Kiruna in Sweden to Narvik in Norway. This Road has no connection to the rest of the swedish railroad net.
A third exception is a special iron ore train on the german federal railway running to Peine/Salzgitter. This train uses automatic couplers on cars and the locos, the reason was to overcome the load limit of the chain couplers. For historic reasons the length of a freight train is limited to 700m and the number of axles is 120, sometimes 150. This and the maximum axle load of 20 metric tons will limit the maximum train load to 3000 tons. The ore Train for Salzgitter uses 45 6axle cars per train resulting in 5400 tons.
The locos for the train are 2 special equipped electric locos, they have an adapter which can be pluged in the automatic coupler to enable the loco to normal operation with chain couplers. This is for emergency and shunting operations.(the locos are beeing shunted in depots and shops) Therefore those locos have still bumpers.
All cars (passenger and freight) which need to be fully interchangeable througout Europe 1435mm Standard gauge have a chain coupler and single line (pressure) air brakes.
Railcars (including ICE and TGV) often use dedicated coupling systems. Those trains can never couple standard cars in between, and mostly neither at the ends (i.e. all types of ICE).Regards

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Thanks, RomanDo you know a website with close-up pix of chain-type couplers? I'd think they would make for very slow switching in comparison with automatic couplers. Is there a method for chain coupling that does not require a man's having to stand between cars?

bud

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-02 AT 03:06 PM (EST)

Bud,
I did not find any true close-ups, but I'm sure you will be able to spot the coupler in this photo:
To answer the second part of your question - no, I don't think connecting chain couplers can be accomplished without the help of a workman.
Actually, there have been some initiatives to introduce an European standard automatic coupler, but none of these ever got very far. The biggest problem might be that you would have to convert EVERY SINGLE locomotive and car used on European railways to that coupler within a few days in order to prevent major traffic disruptions, which I guess is one of the reasons why our railways did not tackle that project yet.The automatic coupler which is most frequently used on commuter trainsets is the Scharfenberg coupler, as in this photo of a contemporary German class 423 S-Bahn unit. This coupler does not only establish a mechanical connection between units, but connects the brake lines and electric control contact plates as well.
HTH
Dominik MannProud German railfan - Visit www.tssf.de www.bahn.de : Official DB web site

http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/ : The European Railway Server

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Hello Sooner,switching is with chain couplers is a bit slower. In hump yards arriving trains must be entirely decoupled according to their destination. But it is not only the coupling, you also need to decouple the brake pipes. To do that correctly you need to close the brake ventils on both cars. This steps needs to be done by american automatic couplers in the same manner. If you forget to close the ventils simultanously or only on one side an emergency brake will happen for that part of the train where the ventil is left open!
After distribution of the cars to their destination tracks the new trains need to be coupled. In Europe the chain couplers and the brakes, in America only the brakes.There is one special case which does not require a workman standing between cars - the automatic shunting coupling. A lot of shunting engines are equipped with automatik shunting couplings. This is actually a hydraulic device ( the nuckle ) which can be used from the cab, and/or remote controlled. Due to the fact that the cars which are delivered by that loco need to be handbraked, manually controlled switches etc it makes sense that the engineer can do all of that work outside the cab and drive his loco/train remote controlled!!!!www.mkb-berlin.de/details/rangkupp.htm -> early version of automatic shunting couplingwww.williwinsen.de/vorbild/2002_07_07D/index.shtml -> actual version and pictures of remote control equipmentregards roman

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This string has been quite educational. Thanks for the information. The next time I build a European consist I'll think of those types ducking in and out between cars to connect those chains! I suppose those buffers on the ends of locos and cars provide some protection ... as long as you don't get squeezed between them.

bud

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Well, I've been able to watch several coupling procedures at Frankfurt Central Station recently, and from what I could observe, the workmen who connect the couplers and brake lines are actually quite safe as long as they remain between the buffers. Linking up the couplers and brake lines is not that time-consuming either...perhaps a minute at worst if the workman knows his stuff.
However, the purpose of the buffers is not actually protection of shunting personnel. As you will be able to imagine, chain couplers cannot resist any pushing forces for obvious reasons - they would just slacken down until the carbodies come into physical contact with each other. The buffers, however, serve to keep cars spaced at the correct distance from each other, and, in fact, it would be impossible to tighten up chain couplers in the first place without the resistance provided by the buffers. The buffers are also spring-loaded, meaning that they can dampen longitudinal oscillations to some degree.I also found a close-up of the Scharfenberg coupler as used on many regional and commuter trainsets:
The rounded plates to the sides of the coupler body are there to protect the multiple unit command circuit contacts and snap aside when the coupler is connected. There are some variations of the basic design, which means that the MU contact housing may also be above or below the coupler body.
The centre body contains the actual coupling mechanism. Each coupler has a "male" and a "female" connector, where the "female" connector (in this photo, the "hole" on the right side) contains a mechanically operated hook, while the "male" connector houses a link onto which the hook then latches. The two little round holes between the actual coupler adapters are the brake lines. The bar protruding from the bottom of the coupler housing serves to help align the couplers.Here is another photo:
HTHDominik MannProud German railfan - Visit www.tssf.de www.bahn.de : Official DB web site

http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/ : The European Railway Server

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Thanks, DomYour post leads to another question, though: You refer to "tightening" the chains. Can the crewmen apply tension to the chain couplers to snug the cars together? And is this done to the point that the buffers are actually in contact while the train is in motion?

bud

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-02 AT 10:55 AM (EST)

Yeah, it's not enough to place the "chain"-end ring into the hook of the next railcar.
(It's not really a chain, but a 3-parts articulated mechanism comprising a U on the loco side, a screw, and a "ring" at the end. French call it Attelage à vis - screw connector)
You then need to tighten the fit by turning the screw lever, restricting the length of the mounting, until bumpers are touching each other. This is done by hand. In a curve, you must tighten harder !You can see the screw, and its lever hanging, if you look sharply at the DB141 front pictured a few posts above. Got it ?Just for curiosity, TGV's have Scharfenberg-like couplers, too.So ad-hoc rescue or manoever locos for TGV's are equipped at one end with such couplers. But there is also a special connection kit allowing relatively quick adaptation when needed.Funnily, on the TGV-ridden line from Paris to Les Sables d'Olonne beach resort, diesels (CC67062 series) take over at La Roche sur Yon (I believe), pulling the powerless TGV over the not-yet-electrified end section with passengers staying on board.Love and Peace

OldieDaddy from Alsace

Visit also www.the-train.de !

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What oldiedaddy said .
Here is another photo which shows how a chain coupler looks when it is connected and tightened up:
Notice the red U-shaped item on the bottom of the photo? This is the screw link which belongs to the coupler of the car immediately behind the locomotive. This link is drawn over the hook on the locomotive and then tightened up by cranking a hand lever.Dominik MannProud German railfan - Visit www.tssf.de www.bahn.de : Official DB web site

http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/ : The European Railway Server

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Thanks for all the valuable information ya'll! It is nice to learn more about European railroads and operations! Sadly being in the US it is hard to watch what is going on, but next time I visit Europe, I will be a little more educated about what is going on in the yards. Now, if only understanding languages was just as easy as trains....
Thanks again and Happy Holidays!Mykel

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All these pix, as well as the expert info, are greatly appreciated. Thanks to all with European expertise who responded.

bud

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Ha! I took that photo 12 years ago!!You are riding on the EC Mozart to Paris Est, in an Austrian car. The photo doesn't do it justice, it was much better in real life because you could see the loco bouncing and jostling around, you could hear the whine of the traction motors, and see the shadows of the setting sun cast on the ballast zooming by at 160 km/h. I must have spent an hour right there staring at this sight. I think that qualifies me as a train nut cheers

--
Clem

http://www.tillier.net/speedworks/index.html

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>Ha! I took that photo 12 years ago!!
>
>You are riding on the EC Mozart to Paris Est, in an Austrian
>car. The photo doesn't do it justice, it was much better in
>real life because you could see the loco bouncing and
>jostling around, you could hear the whine of the traction
>motors, and see the shadows of the setting sun cast on the
>ballast zooming by at 160 km/h. I must have spent an hour
>right there staring at this sight. I think that qualifies
>me as a train nut
>
>cheers
Well, judging by this description I must also be a train nut, because this week I rode on our new S-Bahn trains twice just for the fun of it . I confess I absolutely fell in love with them...air conditioning, automatic passenger information system, extremely quiet even at high speeds, very smooth riding capabilities, and (perhaps the most spectacular feature) there is a large window between the cab and the passenger cabin, allowing you to look out to the front .
Cheers,
Dominik MannProud German railfan - Visit www.tssf.de www.bahn.de : Official DB web site

http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/ : The European Railway Server

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Hi,Some corrections
>An other well known exception ist the entire iron ore
>railroad from Kiruna in Sweden to Narvik in Norway. This
>Road has no connection to the rest of the swedish railroad
>net. Objections, your honour! The route is well connected to the Swedish railroad. The route runs to Narvik in Norway and on the other site it runs to Lulea, a harbour at the Bothnia (Ostsee). At Bode there is a connection to the south and to the east.
And at Gällivare there is an other connection to the Swedish railways.
There is no connection with the Norwegian railroads, tough there are still plans for a connection running from Bodø to Narvik.
I have travelled from Stockholm to Narvik in 1974 by train and had to change in Kiruna. Arriving at 13:30, the connecting train departs at 19:00 and was also coming from the South, from Malmø
It was June, the sun wasn't going down and it snows a little bit.>A third exception is a special iron ore train on the german
>federal railway running to Peine/Salzgitter. This train uses
>automatic couplers on cars and the locos, the reason was to
>overcome the load limit of the chain couplers. For historic
>reasons the length of a freight train is limited to 700m and
>the number of axles is 120, sometimes 150. This and the
>maximum axle load of 20 metric tons will limit the maximum
>train load to 3000 tons. The ore Train for Salzgitter uses
>45 6axle cars per train resulting in 5400 tons. Iron ore trains from the Maasvlakte (near Rotterdam, Netherlands) to Germany are also using automatic couplers. The engines have chain couplers, so there is the need of a "conversion" car, with an automatic coupler on one site and a chain on the other.And someone asked if chain couplers can be automatically coupled.
Well not at all, but some switchers, especially German (!) have a pickup coupler to pickup chain couplers without manual help.Dick van den Hoven

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>Well not at all, but some switchers, especially German (!)
>have a pickup coupler to pickup chain couplers without
>manual help. Yup...shown on the photos which you can see at the second URL from Roman's post . They latch over the coupler's hook and can be released on the push of a button.Dominik MannProud German railfan - Visit www.tssf.de www.bahn.de : Official DB web site

http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/ : The European Railway Server

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Hi Dick,you're right, I'm to blame. The end in Norway is not connected to the rest. Interesting to hear that you were travelling there in the arctic summer. I did not know that there is a regular passenger service enabled between Kiruna and Narvik.
The only thing I know is that in arctic winter the work in Narvik harbour or yard is very - special -. Roman

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> Question, the special car used to go from
>automatic on one end to chain coupler on the other, what is
>this? Is it similar to a box car, flat?? Simply interested
>in having a similar car in my roundhouse. Thanks again for
>the info, and Happy Simming!!!
>
The special car is a modified iron ore hopper. Looks like an iron hopper.
There is a nice story about these cars. Well as they still look as a hopper, they get accidentely loaded. So now the lids are removed.Dick van den Hoven

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Great discussion, everyone. Here's a couple of possibly dumb questions.Presumably when connecting two vehicles they would each have both a hook and a lever, yet from the photos it looks like only one hook/lever pair gets attached. Is this the case?If so, does it matter which one is used? For example, in the closeup of the SNCF coupler above it looks like the car has been hooked to the engine, rather than vice versa. Would this be standard practice?Rob.

Obo's MSTS Locomotive Catalog: http://msts.banal.net

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-18-02 AT 02:26 PM (EST)

>Great discussion, everyone. Here's a couple of possibly
>dumb questions. No question is ever dumb ...!
>Presumably when connecting two vehicles they would each have
>both a hook and a lever, yet from the photos it looks like
>only one hook/lever pair gets attached. Is this the case? Yup.
>If so, does it matter which one is used? For example, in
>the closeup of the SNCF coupler above it looks like the car
>has been hooked to the engine, rather than vice versa.
>Would this be standard practice? Not sure, but I think it does not really matter which of the two links is used, since they ought to have been made to the same specifications as far as durability is concerned.>
>Rob.
(edit) Hey Rob, good to see you're still around, too!Dominik MannProud German railfan - Visit www.tssf.de www.bahn.de : Official DB web site

http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/ : The European Railway Server

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>If so, does it matter which one is used? For example, in
>the closeup of the SNCF coupler above it looks like the car
>has been hooked to the engine, rather than vice versa.
>Would this be standard practice? Here in the Netherlands, it is regulation that the coupler from the car is used. Those from the loco acts more or less as a spare part.
There is an explanation for this, but I have forgotten that one.
Also the not used coupler is hooked at a little hook below the coupler just to avoid that a loose dangling coupler is damaging the tracks, specially the level crossings.Dick van den Hoven

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>Here in the Netherlands, it is regulation that the coupler
>from the car is used.Ha. I thought there might just be some kind of rule like this, if only because otherwise you'd have no way to decide which one to use! Dominik and Dick: thanks for the answers.Rob.

Obo's MSTS Locomotive Catalog: http://msts.banal.net

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