What power is better?

Personally, I like steam, but who can say no to chef boyardee?

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Go look at your closet yard and tell me what you see most of

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I personally Like Diesel Locomotives, the bigger the better!
My roster mostly contains Diesel locos ranging from small switchers all the way up to todays High power Diesels SD90Macs and GE AC4400s
But I do also have some steam locos mostly ones that CP would have used. Thanks to John Fowlis
Just my 2 centsMatt

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Its hard for me to vote, as each power type has advantages and disadvantages. My closest yard (Hornsby, north of Sydney, Australia) is chock full of electrics. Now to be fair there are more diesels than electrics in this country but electrics have a lot of advantages, especially in passenger transport. They are generally quieter, lighter, faster, relatively more powerful and environmentally cleaner. They do have drawbacks (more infrastructure required being the biggest one) but lets look at a few comparisons. The British Intercity 125, fastest diesel in the world: 206km/h (129mph). The Japanese Shinkansen - Anywhere from 210km/h (131mph) for the 0 series which commenced service in 1967 to 300km/h (187mph) for the series 500 shinkansen (and ever increasing). The French TGV in various guises reaches 350km/h (218mph) in regular service and has gone over 514km/h (321mph).For freight haulage, the more powerful locomotives are generally diesels, but electrics can be pretty powerful too, and have the advantage of not having to generate their own power so they can just be one huge electric motor. Coal in Queensland, Australia is electrically hauled (mile long trains hauled by 6 25kv locomotives, all this on 3'6" track).So I guess you've guessed which I am voting for. Though you forgot to put one form of motive power on the list - horse drawn . . .

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-11-02 AT 10:59 PM (EST)

I do want to correct one common misconception. Electric locomotives are not necessarily environmentally cleaner, in fact may be just the opposite. If coal fired power plants are used to generate the electricity, more harmful emissions may result. The electric just moves the generator off the locomotive, it does not eleminate it. Many seem to forget this.
Bob

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I've not forgotten that, and in this country coal fired plants are most common. But there is hydroelectricity, nuclear power, solar and wind power, which can bring the polution down. Also it depends on how heavy the traffic is - more electric trains on the one line uses the available power more efficiently (up to a point).

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Each type of motive power does have its own unique pros and cons. I personally don't have a real preference, although I'm more used to seeing diesel-electric locomotives. I'm 25 years-old, so the only steam locomotives I have ever seen operating were at a museum I do have to say though that there is something really unique about a steam locomotive. They have their own personality and character and it's fascinating to watch such a complicated and clever machine operate.I used to live in Chicago, so I have a little bit of experience with electric motive power too. I used to ride the El trains and subways with my mom all the time. Also, the Orange Empire Railway Museum in Perris, California has quite a collection of electric trolley cars and interurbans that the Pacific Electric Railway Company used to run in southern California. I even had a chance to operate a PCC car at the museum once a couple of years ago, and the one thing I remember most is how fast it was! I barely touched the controls and it really took off! So I would think that in terms of accelleration, electric propulsion definitely wins out. By its very nature, an electric motor has more torque and accelleration than an internal-combustion engine. But it does require an expensive infrastructure using overhead electrified wire or hot third-rail power, and electric railroads also require more expertise in maintennance.Oh, Bob...you did make a good point. Except that one thing to keep in mind is that power plants do not generate electricity in a linear relationship with the load. They generate a certain KVA (kilovolt-amperes) or MVA (megavolt-amperes) REGARDLESS of how much power is actually being used. The turbines and genertors turn and a fixed amount of power is generated. For example, if a plant is capable of generating 10 MVA, it will generate that amount of power regardless of whether a city (or electric railway) is actually using 10 MVA or 1 MVA. The only time where a greater load neccessitates consuming more fuel, burning more coal, is if the load exceeds the capacity of the generators the power plant is running at the time, and they have to bring more generators on line. Yes, an electric railway definitely would add to the collective load that is placed on a generating plant and so you wouldn't want to operate one in an area that already has an overloaded power grid, but using an electric railway in and of itself does not equal burning more coal. This comes up too whenever electric cars (automobiles) are discussed. A lot of people are mistaken into thinking that each time you build an electric charging station, more fossil fuels are burned. But electricity doesn't work that way.Chris

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>
>Oh, Bob...you did make a good point. Except that one thing
>to keep in mind is that power plants do not generate
>electricity in a linear relationship with the load. They
>generate a certain KVA (kilovolt-amperes) or MVA
>(megavolt-amperes) REGARDLESS of how much power is actually
>being used. The turbines and genertors turn and a fixed
>amount of power is generated. For example, if a plant is
>capable of generating 10 MVA, it will generate that amount
>of power regardless of whether a city (or electric railway)
>is actually using 10 MVA or 1 MVA. The only time where a
>greater load neccessitates consuming more fuel, burning more
>coal, is if the load exceeds the capacity of the generators
>the power plant is running at the time, and they have to
>bring more generators on line. Yes, an electric railway
>definitely would add to the collective load that is placed
>on a generating plant and so you wouldn't want to operate
>one in an area that already has an overloaded power grid,
>but using an electric railway in and of itself does not
>equal burning more coal. This comes up too whenever
>electric cars (automobiles) are discussed. A lot of people
>are mistaken into thinking that each time you build an
>electric charging station, more fossil fuels are burned.
>But electricity doesn't work that way.
BZZZZZT!!!! Just about every sentence in that paragraph is WRONG!!. I've work in the power industry for 28 years and that is just *not* how it works. First, power is measured in MW (megawatts), not MVA (mega volt-amperes). Every extra watt on the grid requires more fuel to be burned (or water through the turbine in the case of hydro). Every electric train requires a power plant somewhere to use more steam and burn more fuel. Electricity *does* work that way!!!But as far as which type of motive-power is my favorite:Steam is the most 'complicated' to operate so it provides real challenges to the engineer in that way.Multi-unit diesels have the most power. Driving a very long drag with 3 or 4 units is challenging if you want to avoid breaking couplers.Electric are just the sleekest running things around (IMHO).

Mike F

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Count me for steam but I'm down with boyardee also!
It's the fuel of champions!(aside from original pocahontas coal)

EIN
"Running Dirty there, tail end. Clean that stack up. You know mangement don't like that crap."
http://www.trainweb.org/railmation/ronsgifs.html

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I like diesel.
From the early Geeps to modern C44's and sd75's (from a CN point of View)

Rob.
Mile 21.0 CN Oakville Sub.

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There has and will only be one alternative for me (90% of my loco rooster consists of this type ) and that is...S-T-E-A-M!!!!!!
Steam is the king for now and forever.
Diesels are ok as long as they look good.
Electricity have for me never been suitable for rail transport, they're too clean and they don't have the charms that a steamer doo.

When things screw up, there's only one thing left to say "Doh!"

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Although I like the diesels, nothing gets me going like the electric locos. Then again, being from Philadelphia, PA, originally, I'm so used to being around electric equipment (from electric buses (or as we would call them in the Northeast, "trackless trolleys" to Silverliners III and IV to AEM-7's and E60's)) that I can't really imagine life without them.And I would rather have an electric loco underground with me any given day. Steam and Diesel can't be underground too long without causing pollution problems. Why do you think they made FL-9's? Anyway, here's a couple of screenshots from a route I've been building... now... does anyone have a fix for the "missing coupler" issue on the E60's?Kragen

Kragen Darkwolf
C.E.O.
Nittany Central and Western R.R.

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-02 AT 11:44 PM (EST)

(Can a moderator delete this message, please?)

One of ACR's Acela Express trains, courtesy of Alex Stroshane

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Where exactly can I get that cabview?

One of ACR's Acela Express trains, courtesy of Alex Stroshane

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It was an NALW E60 cabview. If I remember correctly, you have to download the driveable E60s to get it. (I believe it came in New Haven and several New Jersey Transit liveries.) I took the SEPTA version and repainted it, then grabbed the alpha channel from the MSTS-supplied E60 and used it (the SEPTA E60 had transparency issues with the trucks.)

Kragen Darkwolf
C.E.O.
Nittany Central and Western R.R.

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I found it. Thanks, man!

One of ACR's Acela Express trains, courtesy of Alex Stroshane

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Chef Boyardi Mini-bites Ravioli all the way!

Mike Suitts

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There is no need to post these stupid polls here, or to any other forum other than 'general' discussion forum!!!! (gees i can be a moderator too. LOL)Would not even try to give you an answer from a mature point of view!So hovertrain, pls spare us from trash like this and your last:http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID5/5580.htmlKEEP it in the general forum pls.
keep it real

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-02 AT 03:02 AM (EST)

EMD... was that really necessary? The poll DID get a decent conversation going.In any event, Happy Holidays to ALL.Kragen

Kragen Darkwolf
C.E.O.
Nittany Central and Western R.R.

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not my fault people responded to this clowns post?
this poll is totally , absoulutely, a waste of space
did you even look at the link i posted.!!!!here:http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID5/5580.htmlnow pls give me some actual reasoning and thanks for my post.
THANKS

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did you see the post,
http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID5/5580.htmlwell as far as im concerned im on the right track,
time to leave this forum like all the other old timers.
let it become a pathetic teen place without rail knowledge
thanks

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>not my fault people responded to this clowns post? So now I'm a clown. That makes me feel great.

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Yes, EMD, I did look at the post, and it was a drawing that he said that he did in 30 seconds. I really fail to see what was wrong with the drawing itself. Granted, this may not be the correct forum for this whole discussion, but there's no need to leave because of how you feel about ONE person.And to be honest: without today's teens being interested in railroading (whether it be model, real, or virtual,) this hobby of ours would die out. I'm rapidly approaching 30, and I'm worried that the hobby won't last much longer. Hell, you "old-timers" should be taking PRIDE in passing along info and enthusiam to us "Gen-X'ers," who in turn, should be passing along that torch to the next group, and so on. This is necessary for the survival of our hobby. Compared to a lot of other things out there that the teens of today could be doing, this is one of the purest of activites that anyone could enjoy.Personally, there's nothing more thrilling than being stopped at a crossing in a truck as the train has the horn going, you give a couple blasts of your air horn, and he answers back with his. Okay, so winning the lottery might beat it. But I think you get my point.Peace, and Happy Holidays...
Kragen

Kragen Darkwolf
C.E.O.
Nittany Central and Western R.R.

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coal power plants produce sulfur dioxide which when mixed with water produces acid rain which kills plants therefore reducing our oxygen.
Scrubbers in coal Power Plants remove alot of pollutants but there is still some sulfur dioxide left. the pollutants left turn into sludge or mud-like stuff and it is pumped into holes in the ground or, since it has a similar chemical compound as gypsum, is then made into wallboard or sheetrock. Nuclear power plants aren't pollutant except every few years they have to get some new uranium. when they do this they put the old and almost totally used up uranium into holes in the ground. then the uranium eventually loses its raidoactivity.My dad works at the Beaver Valley power plant or FENOC.

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EMD,There was absolutely no need for you to get so hostile about this. First of all, you need to cut Hovertrain some slack, as if you had been reading any of the earlier posts here, you would know he's just a kid. It's disgusting to me that you felt a need to blast him like this. I normally don't even participate in these little scuffles that seem to pop up on the message boards from time to time, but I had to say something here. What you are doing here is just wrong! Tell me what "mature viewpoint" you are sharing if you feel a need to try to squash a young railfan's enthusiasm just because you think it's off the topic?Now, as far as these polls are concerned, I don't see anything wrong with them. They aren't "trash" and I just personally feel they ARE relavent because they help to keep the interest and enthusiasm fired up for locomotives...which ultimately leads to more locomotive models for MSTS. Also, they are a good way for people to share a little more about their experiences with different types of railroad motive power in the area where they grew up and live...diesel-electric, electric, and even the old-timers can share with us what different types of steamers they might remember seeing.This is only the second time I think I have posted to the Locomotive design forum and lately I've seen a lot of hostility here. I really hope this isn't indicative of how it is here. I have posted to the Traction and Route Design forums and I have never seen these kind of problems. Please help to keep a welcome, friendly environment here.Chris Tobar
San Bernardino, California

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