Cab Forward progress report

There has been a lot of requests on this, so here it is. The Cab Forward now has new valve gear, air pumps, some handrails and bars and a beginning of a tender.Here are the screenshots:
A comparison between two SP steamers.
Side view of the Cab Forward alone. The tender is missing the rear truck because I won't copy the front truck to the rear before I've added some detail and textured it.
The highly detailed air pumps and other accessories. Does anyone know what the thing below the pumps does?
The new valve gear, along with detailed tubes on the cylinder. The valve gear isn't animated yet, the reason for some rods being a little off.I also ran into a problem, but luckily I managed to solve it. It seems MSTS can't handle objects that have their frame rotated on all the three axes. Strange. I got a "cannot add car to the world: uid 2000 or something" error message. Well, it was easily fixed by rotating the object inside the frame, and straightening the frame.Oh yeah, I also have a question about the Buckeye trucks of the tender, were the couplers connected directly the trucks as I have seen in some pics, or were they connected to the tender frame?

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RE: Cab Forward progress report, Adam3291, May-04-02, 11:41 AM, (1) RE: Cab Forward progress report, cjmaclean, May-04-02, 12:18 PM, (2) RE: Cab Forward progress report, Euston, May-04-02, 12:50 PM, (3) RE: Cab Forward progress report, mikkox, May-04-02, 02:58 PM, (4) RE: Cab Forward progress report, swhite101, May-04-02, 04:50 PM, (5) RE: Cab Forward progress report, Idahojeff, May-05-02, 12:35 PM, (6) RE: Cab Forward progress report, rdfox, May-05-02, 01:43 PM, (7) RE: Cab Forward progress report, wpfan, May-05-02, 02:08 PM, (8) RE: Cab Forward progress report, Starlight, May-05-02, 08:10 PM, (9) RE: Cab Forward progress report, ge44tonner, May-05-02, 08:29 PM, (10) RE: Cab Forward progress report, wjbagley, Jun-07-02, 00:11 AM, (28) RE: Cab Forward progress report, KeltikSylk, Jun-19-02, 01:59 PM, (31) RE: Cab Forward progress report, Idahojeff, May-06-02, 04:34 AM, (12) RE: Cab Forward progress report, bnsfrr, May-06-02, 06:57 PM, (19) RE: Cab Forward progress report, Thirdrail70, May-05-02, 08:40 PM, (11) RE: Cab Forward progress report, swhite101, May-06-02, 07:38 AM, (13) RE: Cab Forward progress report, swhite101, May-06-02, 08:08 AM, (14) RE: Cab Forward progress report, cjmaclean, May-06-02, 10:46 AM, (15) RE: Cab Forward progress report, nw_fan, May-06-02, 01:22 PM, (16) RE: Cab Forward progress report, cjmaclean, May-06-02, 02:38 PM, (17) RE: Cab Forward progress report, E428, May-13-02, 09:27 AM, (20) RE: Cab Forward progress report, mikkox, May-06-02, 03:43 PM, (18) RE: Cab Forward progress report, etech, May-15-02, 11:52 PM, (21) RE: Cab Forward progress report, nw_fan, May-16-02, 01:54 AM, (22) RE: Cab Forward progress report, etech, May-16-02, 06:29 AM, (23) RE: Cab Forward progress report, mikkox, May-16-02, 12:44 PM, (24) RE: Cab Forward progress report, etech, May-16-02, 04:09 PM, (25) RE: Cab Forward progress report, mikkox, May-16-02, 05:48 PM, (26) RE: Cab Forward progress report, etech, May-16-02, 06:00 PM, (27) RE: Cab Forward progress report, tulloch, Jun-19-02, 04:38 AM, (29) RE: Cab Forward progress report, CSX_CW60AC_GregMarck, Jun-19-02, 01:26 PM, (30) RE: Cab Forward progress report, parrotheada1a, Jul-28-02, 09:57 PM, (32)

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LAST EDITED ON May-04-02 AT 11:55 AM (EDT)Maybe Not. Mikkox what is you E-Mail. Thanks, Adam

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*starts drooling all over his desk again* Now this is DEFINITELY going to be a great year for virtual steam engineers!!!!!!
D.M."Homini plurima ex homine sunt mala." - Plinius Maior, Naturalis Historia 7,1,5Dominik MannProud Member of the MSTS European Railfans

- Interested in Euro railways, virtual or real? Visit the European Add-Ons Discussion forum at http://www.trains-station.com/ -

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Wow, looks - sort of odd!! - but I'm sure that is intentional Will there be a new cabview with this loco? - what kind of cab did it have?SIMTRAIN UK

If you are releasing a payware add-on, or planning to buy one, make sure your first stop is SIMTRAIN UK, the place to go for great previews and reviews:
http://clix.to/trainsim

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>Will there be a new cabview
>with this loco? - what
>kind of cab did it
>have? Yes, none of the existing cabs won't really fit, because both the engineer and the fireman sit their backs to the boiler. The controls are reversed so that the engineer sits on the right as usual, with the brake gauges on a stand to his left, and the throttle (a very similiar as in ESE) is on the right above him.I'm not sure how I will get all the controls, especially the firemans, into the cabview, because of the way the controls are positioned. Maybe I'll make a small area separated by a red line to show some necessary fireman gauges, like on this sketch I've made:
I was thinking about the oil burner... there are some hints that MSTS might be able to model oil burning locomotives, but no-one has managed to get them work. It is possible to change the speed how fast the coal burns. The biggest difference (in MSTS) is the fire mass... if you burn oil, you control the "mass" with the atomizer, ensuring that all the oil burns immeditealy.So, it should be possible to make a fake oil burning firebox in MSTS by setting the coal burn time low, and also the ideal and maximum fire mass settings low. The ideal fire mass should be very close to zero. There would be only one combined control, oil flow/atomizer, which actually is the shovelling speed. If you want to increase the oil flow, you just increase the shovelling speed, but if you increase it too much (fire mass starts to go above zero) you have to turn it down a little (this simulates adjusting the atomizer) and wait for the temperature to increase, and then again increase it. This would happen very fast, like in ten seconds, as opposed to minutes of coal burning engines.

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Lookin' good,I only discovered this back to front loco a few months ago, not being well versed on American Locos, or having any knowledge prior to MSTS at all That said I love these novel idea locos and look forward to its release..keep up the good work!Simon
http://website.lineone.net/~judy33/Trainsim/Index.html

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Huh? Novel? IMHO everybody else configured their articulataed locos backwards! Very nice work on the loco. I myself am about done on research and ready to commence construction on some of these
I'll most likely post my questions here (after a thread search of course).I just hope I haven't bitten off more than I can chew for my first steam loco project.Jeff.RFSPF (Rabidly Foaming Southern Pacific Fan)

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Yeah, but even the SP screwed up and bought a few built backwards, too, didn't they? RDF

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I was thinking about one of those too as I had just bought a book on them. Are you planning on doing yours with or without the skyline casing? What class were you thinking of doing?The voice of insanity in a seemingly normal world.

www.sacramentolocomotiveworks.com
Bringing the steam locomotive to the digital era

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this is just for those non americans (god that sounds wrong) that don't quite understand the cab forwards.These locomotives were built due to a problem. It wasn't uncommon in long tunnels for the engine crews to nearly suffocate...in fact, i think there's a case or two where some did. SP figured that by putting the engine crew first, and then the smokestack, then they could solve this problem in the long tunnels and snowsheds. Visibilty was also a factor. Basically, these locomotives were a mallet locomotive turned back to front. (literally)There wasn't just one design however, there was one (or two) coal burner cab forwards. These units were most noticable by the small cab at the rear (front?) of the smokebox. I think those locomotives were phased out in favor of the oil burners.The monkeydeck which you see right before the tender was often a haven for hobos and tramps. There's a problem though, given the way the locomotive was oriented, when the loco entered a tunnel, there was a tremendous downdraft, accompanied with steam and some water. Anyone on the monkeydeck would be scalded to death. (not a pretty sight)In the end, the Cab Forwards lost out to diesels; though, I think one or two survive to this date. I'm not sure but I think they're currently not in running condition.

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As for 'Surviving' examples of a SP Cab-Forward, the only one I am aware of is in the California State Railroad Museum at Sacramento.

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-07-02 AT 00:13 AM (EDT)LAST EDITED ON Jun-07-02 AT 00:12 AM (EDT)This site has some pictures of Southern Pacific Cab Forward locos. Two of them are of 4294, which is now located in the California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento.http://www.ebpm.com/rr/regpix/glry_rr_cabf.htmlI just visited the museum last week and it was worth the visit. Old town Sacramento is also worth a look.Bill

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You reminded me of an entry I saw on a site somewhere...Especially since our overseas comrades aren't familiar with the design.Apparently the idea may not be American, but originated in Italy of all places...Seems they were having some issues with the Italian Alps. The date they gave was pretty early, 19th Century. Of coures, I can't find the damn site again...Frank Musick
Lehigh & Atlantic Railway, Canal Navigation Company


Frank Musick
Lehigh & Atlantic Railway, Canal Navigation Company

<www.KelticSylk.com>

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Mt-4 of course, gotta have red and orange ones to pull the San Joaquin Daylight over Tehachapi! And skyline casing too. If it's the book I'm thinking of (The 4300 4-8-2's by Robert J. Church) oh yeah!!! This book sets the standard by which all others should be judged. If you happen to be a SERIOUS student of steam locomotion, by all means get your hands on a copy of this.The research this guy put in to this is INCREDIBLE. It doesn't really matter about your prototype preference either as a lot of the stuff covered applies to modern steam locomotives in general. (Most builders relied on standard appliances from manufacturers like WABCO, Elesco, Worthington, etc..) These are covered in detail as well. Oh... BTW those stars on SP loco axles aren't for ornamentation, they indicate that the engine is equipped with SP patented spring pad lubricators. This is a most educational tome indeed!Hey! Lookie there, I just wrote a book report.
My english teacher couldn't have got me to do that with a gun to my head (LOL).Regards,
Jeff. RFSPF (Rabidly Foaming Southern Pacific Fan)

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>Mt-4 of course, gotta have red
>and orange ones to pull
>the San Joaquin Daylight over
>Tehachapi! Just a note: The cabforwards were not painted in the red and orange Daylight, you my be thinking of the GS classes. Any plans for doing the early cabforwards, ie. the "Mudhen" version? MIKE C
Trains from http://tgs.railfan.net/
- MIKE - -Trains from www.frograil.com/gifs/gifs.htm

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Beautiful work. This engine will be as popular as the Big Boy, well at least for SP fans.

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LAST EDITED ON May-06-02 AT 07:39 AM (EDT)Just a post for non-non Americans the idea of a "cab forward" was pioneered by an Italian, Guiseppe Zara around 1900. He designed the class 500 4-6-0, which was a cabforward loco, which was tested in Italy and France, and which later became the Class 671 when fitted with super heaters. The class was withdrawn in the early 1940's. I'm just off to assemble my scanner to get some stuff in for my next loco project, I'll scan in a picture of this loco at the same time and post it here Simon
http://website.lineone.net/~judy33/Trainsim/Index.html

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As promised here is the shot..sorry about the quality, the book refused to lie flat, even with pressure from above Simon

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I'd like to see this one, Simon! Strangely the "Mucca" (Cow) as she was affectionately called is the only steamer that comes to my mind when I think of Italy ... Will you do both the pre- and post-refit versions?
D.M."Homini plurima ex homine sunt mala." - Plinius Maior, Naturalis Historia 7,1,5Dominik MannProud Member of the MSTS European Railfans

- Interested in Euro railways, virtual or real? Visit the European Add-Ons Discussion forum at http://www.trains-station.com/ -

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LAST EDITED ON May-06-02 AT 01:33 PM (EDT)>Oh yeah, I also have a
>question about the Buckeye trucks
>of the tender, were the
>couplers connected directly the trucks
>as I have seen in
>some pics, or were they
>connected to the tender frame?
>
I cannot speak with complete authority on SP engines, but I have never heard of a truck that had couplers attached to it. The reason is that the tremendous forces applied to a coupler(especially when reversing) can only be managed by attaching the coupler to the frame of the tender. This way the coupler can't twist and move and possibly derail the truck. Think of the model trains that have truck mounted couplers. The first thing model railroaders with large, very serious layouts do is to body mount the couplers for better operation.One other thing. You asked about the object under the air pumps... I don't have any pictures of this engine, but my guess is that this is a feedwater heater, although it looks like there is a feedwater heater in the top of the smokebox, behind the stack. I don't know if SP used them, but most large articulateds had them. This is the pump that sent the cold water from the tender to be heated inside a group of pipes that ran through the firebox before dumping it into the boiler. If this were not done, the result would be lowering the temperature (and pressure) of the boiler. One other possibility is a pump for the fuel oil. I'm not certain if this was located in the tender or on the engine. It could also be an injector. These were usually located under the cab, but since the engine was turned around from normal, they would probably have had to put it near the smokebox. Sorry I can't narrow it down better, but I'm not familiar with SP steam.BTW, super looking loco. Very impressive work.Mike
Norfolk & Western
Precision TransportationMike Rector

NORFOLK & WESTERN
Precision Transportation

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Some more background on the Mucca..."Another locomotive which left a deep impression with the visitors at the 1900 Paris World Fair - first and foremost for its unorthodox look. It seemed as if the engine was reversed by 180 degrees - the cab was in front, the viewer looked upon the blunt nose while the windshields were staring at him like the huge eyes of a cow. This promptly earned the locomotive its nickname, "Mucca", the cow. And even while visitors at the fair were still struck dumb by its appearance, back in Italy a sister locomotive began a series of trial runs. The speeding cow reached 126 kph (78 mph) easily.
In order to provide the crew with better visibility and increased comfort, her creator, Italian locomotive engineer Guiseppe Zara, had relocated the locomotive's cab to the front, keeping the engineman and fireman literally ahead of the exhausted smoke and steam, especially within tunnels. The Mucca was a compound engine. The two low-pressure cylinders were located together on one side, the high-pressure cylinders on the other. This design, named "Plancher" after its inventor, was quite common on Italian locomotives of that time. The large firebox could be placed above the leading bogie and did not have to be squeezed low between the drivers as on conventional engines. Coal was stored in two lateral bunkers right behind the cab, while the tender carried only the water and was equipped with a brakeman's cab. In total, one prototype and 42 production engines were built.
These engines were designed in Florence, which was home to the Adriatic Railway's development centre. They were operated on the Adriatic network until 1905. After the nationalization of the Italian railways later that year they continued to serve express trains in the River Po area. The Adriatic numbers 3701 through 3743 were replaced by the National Railways (FS) numbers 670 001 to 670 043. Most were refitted with superheaters and continued to run well into the 1940s."A few specs:Wheel arrangement: 2'C (4-6-0) n4v, four-cylinder saturated steam compound engine
Driver diameter: 1920 mm (6.2')
Length: 24.13 m (79.16')
Max speed: 126 kph (78 mph)
Horsepower: 870D.M."Homini plurima ex homine sunt mala." - Plinius Maior, Naturalis Historia 7,1,5Dominik MannProud Member of the MSTS European Railfans

- Interested in Euro railways, virtual or real? Visit the European Add-Ons Discussion forum at http://www.trains-station.com/ -

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Hi
Just to tell you i'm working on the italian Gr.670... Some screenshots later (now i have only the cab done) and in another post.
And (this is most important) best compliments to Mikkox for this superb creation!
Bye
Niels

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>Think of the model trains that
>have truck mounted couplers. Damn, the pic of the truck I have is a model train one. Well, thanks for solving that question.>heater, although it looks like
>there is a feedwater heater
>in the top of the
>smokebox, behind the stack. Yeah, I think the feedwater heater is on the top of the smokebox, because the water tube runs from the tender to there.>the boiler. One other
>possibility is a pump for
>the fuel oil. I'm I think the Cab Forwards had the oil tank pressurised from the brake system, thus no need for a pump. I've also seen pics of the AC-9 Yellowstones with the same thing under the pumps, so it isn't a Cab Forward-only appliance. I'll have to do more research on SP engines.

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Gret looking model! I was lucky enough to see #4294 at Sacramento a couple of years back (I think it's the only preserved SP cab forward and it's a non-runner at the moment) and I can't wait to get my hands on your finished MSTS version.>The highly detailed air pumps and
>other accessories. Does anyone know
>what the thing below the
>pumps does? I've got a couple of detailed books on cab fowards ('Cab-Forward' by Church and 'Those Amazing Cab Forwards' by Harlan) and they both identify it as a Worthington hot feedwater pump.Cheers, Nick (Sydney, Australia)

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I am now pretty certain that the object below the air pumps is the water pump portion of the feedwater heater and the portion visible on top of the boiler is the heat transfer portion of the feedwater heater system. This is my impression after reading about some N&W steamers. Early feedwater heaters used by N&W were positioned on the left side of the boiler and were all one piece (locos from the 1920's). Like this picture shows over the rear driver on the front engine... However, later loco's (1940's) were built with the more advanced version, such as on your cab forward and they had two parts... the pump, located under the boiler running boards, near the front (looks like box with pipe coming out of the bottom front in pic below)... and the heat exchange portion, located on top of the boiler, in front of the stack (barely visible in front of stack with pipe running down side of boiler in pic below). Like this... Mike
Norfolk & Western
Precision TransportationMike Rector

NORFOLK & WESTERN
Precision Transportation

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>I am now pretty certain that
>the object below the air
>pumps is the water pump
>portion of the feedwater heater
>and the portion visible on
>top of the boiler is
>the heat transfer portion of
>the feedwater heater system. I think you're right. I've just found a decent photo of this area of an AC-6 cab forward and it refers to the portion on top of the boiler as the 'Worthington type S feedwater hot water pump spray chamber'. Later cab forwards (#4294 at Sacramento is an AC-12) seem to have slightly different pumps but the layout's the same.The object below the air pumps is without question the pump itself. Let me know if you're interested in seeing the photos and I'll scan 'em and mail them to you.Cheers, Nick

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>The object below the air pumps
>is without question the pump
>itself. Let me know if
>you're interested in seeing the
>photos and I'll scan 'em
>and mail them to you. Yeah, thank you both for the info. And yes, it would be great if you could send me detailed photos of any parts of the locomotive! I have a detailed drawing of only the right side, and pretty much all of the pic I have found on the net. If you have pics of the cab and the controls, please send them too.

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>Yeah, thank you both for the
>info. And yes, it would
>be great if you could
>send me detailed photos of
>any parts of the locomotive!
>I have a detailed drawing
>of only the right side,
>and pretty much all of
>the pic I have found
>on the net. If you
>have pics of the cab
>and the controls, please send
>them too. No worries, I have about 500 pages of photos and line drawings so let me know when there's some part you need a close up of and I'll try locate a photo for you. What's the road number of the cab forward you're modelling? There's differences between each of the different types (although the differences between the later versions are really small).I don't want to fill up your mailbox so I'll keep the scans pretty small. Let me know if you want them bigger !Cheers, Nick

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>photo for you. What's the
>road number of the cab
>forward you're modelling? There's differences The last one, and the only one surviving today, the 4294, AC-12 type. I have also notifed the minor differences in detail. Since I am building it as a hiearchy of multiple parts, it will be easy to create the other versions too by changing individual parts that differ. Or maybe even make the AC-9 Yellowstone cab-in-rear. >I don't want to fill up
>your mailbox so I'll keep
>the scans pretty small. Let
>me know if you want
>them bigger ! Okay. Thanks!

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>I have also
>notifed the minor differences in
>detail. Since I am building
>it as a hiearchy of
>multiple parts, it will be
>easy to create the other
>versions too by changing individual
>parts that differ. Or maybe
>even make the AC-9 Yellowstone
>cab-in-rear. Cool !>>I don't want to fill up
>>your mailbox so I'll keep
>>the scans pretty small. Let
>>me know if you want
>>them bigger !
>
>Okay. Thanks! First scans are on their way to you. Cheers, Nick

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I am an Australian, and I don't know a lot about your railways (Railroads) but the SP is my fav, and I espcaily like the "Daylight" scheme. Anyway, your loco is looking great!

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lookin great!
Greg Marck
Act. Maker
gregoryis411@hotmail.com

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Although I am a certified B&M nut, the ESPEE is king in the west coast. Way to go mikkox! I'll take crack at a doubleheaded AC fruit block over Donner anytime.
Something that comes to mind is about controlling these beasts. Since they were oil burners,It seems that you might play with a diesel's power up curve. Alternately, you might do a software kitbash of that and the handling qualities of the Big Boy. It might get you close enough. Since the last run of one was in the late 50's, there is very little chance that you're gonna find somebody who actually operated one to check this out. Just a thought.

Certified B&M nut!

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