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Groquik (12 posts)
May-02-02, 06:59 AM (EDT) "Engine brakes and distributor" HiI've tried to make a loco with a distributor brake system
But the engine brakes controller doesn't workIt's strange: the brake cylinders pressure increase on the dial but the speed doesn't fall.I've noticed that Microsoft's Acela HHP-8 have a similar problem.
So I wonder if it's a MSTS bug or if there are some parameters I forgot. Moreover, the "*.eng files" techdocs doesn't mention brakedistributor parameters.Is there a guy who manage to make a loco with distributor and working engine brakes? Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
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Subject Author Message Date ID RE: Engine brakes and distributor train911 May-12-02 1 RE: Engine brakes and distributor FozzyBear May-12-02 2 RE: Engine brakes and distributor train911 May-12-02 3 RE: Engine brakes and distributor FozzyBear May-12-02 4 RE: Engine brakes and distributor Groquik May-13-02 5 RE: Engine brakes and distributor FozzyBear May-13-02 6 RE: Engine brakes and distributor darkfyre May-13-02 7 RE: Engine brakes and distributor FozzyBear May-13-02 8 RE: Engine brakes and distributor Groquik May-13-02 9 RE: Engine brakes and distributor FozzyBear May-13-02 10 RE: Engine brakes and distributor Groquik May-13-02 11 RE: Engine brakes and distributor autonerd May-13-02 12 RE: Engine brakes and distributor FozzyBear May-14-02 14 RE: Engine brakes and distributor autonerd May-14-02 15 RE: Engine brakes and distributor autonerd May-13-02 13 RE: Engine brakes and distributor Groquik May-14-02 16

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train911 (182 posts)
May-12-02, 08:18 AM (EDT) 1. "RE: Engine brakes and distributor" that is exactly the problem, i got too !!somebody out there who knows ? Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
FozzyBear (1191 posts)
May-12-02, 08:47 AM (EDT) 2. "RE: Engine brakes and distributor" LAST EDITED ON May-12-02 AT 08:48 AM (EDT)>It's strange: the brake cylinders pressure
>increase on the dial but
>the speed doesn't fall. That's a simple one to answer! I should hope that the speed didn't fall when the cylinger pressure rises!!! The brakes go on when you reduce the pressure in an air brake system! not the other way round. That's what makes it a fail safe system. If you separate the hoses and thus lose presure in the train pipe, the pressure falls IE you have a breakaway car... then the brakes all go on!you need to reduce the pressure to apply the brakes not increase it.Hope that helps!Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
train911 (182 posts)
May-12-02, 08:52 AM (EDT) 3. "RE: Engine brakes and distributor" in my case, i see the pressure falling in the cab, but nothing happens....NOTHING, not even a little bit Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
FozzyBear (1191 posts)
May-12-02, 08:55 AM (EDT) 4. "RE: Engine brakes and distributor" >in my case, i see the
>pressure falling in the cab,
>but nothing happens....NOTHING, not even
>a little bit Wierd!!! :-S Mabe the brakes in the .eng file are not defined properly.Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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Groquik (12 posts)
May-13-02, 06:49 AM (EDT) 5. "RE: Engine brakes and distributor" Hi FozzyBear I'm afraid you make a confusion between pipe pressure
and brakes cylinders pressureOn a modern brake systems, the driver must make a depression
on the pipe. Distributors on each carriages detect this depression and fill the brakes cylinders
with the auxiliary reservoir.But my problem concerns the engine brake (and not the train brake which works very well)
so the pipe isn't concerned at all Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
FozzyBear (1191 posts)
May-13-02, 07:19 AM (EDT) 6. "RE: Engine brakes and distributor" LAST EDITED ON May-13-02 AT 07:22 AM (EDT)
>on the pipe. Distributors on each
>carriages detect this depression and
>fill the brakes cylinders
>with the auxiliary reservoir. NOPE!!! The brake cylinders are filled from both ends and the reservoir keeps the pressure there.... The piston then sits in the middle of the cylinder (spring assisted) which is the brake release position. When you drop the train pipe pressure that also drops the pressure on one end of the cylinder. The reason both ends don't drop in pressure is because of non return valves in the system.Once you drop the pressure at one end of the cylinder, the pressure at the other end (which is still connected to the reservoir) forces the piston forwards and applies the brakes!That is how it works! and that is what makes it a fail safe system.Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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darkfyre (256 posts)
May-13-02, 01:04 PM (EDT) 7. "RE: Engine brakes and distributor" LAST EDITED ON May-13-02 AT 01:07 PM (EDT)Cool Last year, I was watching a pair of GP40's shuttle back and forth along an empty stretch of track at variable speeds; then stopping suddenly, without warning.. I heard that it took a long time to stop a train traveling at 50mph; but these babies stop on a dime! I asked a friend; and he went down to the yard, and came back a little while later after chatting with the engineers; and told me that they were testing out new 'Disc Brakes'..What really amazed me, is when they started doing it with a single GP40 and like 10 fully loaded lumber cars(flat boards, not logs)..still stopped on a dime..I couldn't stop myself sitting there and watching them all day!

Hauling cars is fun; but crashing them is even better.

-Darkfyre Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
FozzyBear (1191 posts)
May-13-02, 03:34 PM (EDT) 8. "RE: Engine brakes and distributor" >they were testing out new
>'Disc Brakes'..What really amazed me,
>is when they started doing
>it with a single GP40
>and like 10 fully loaded
>lumber cars(flat boards, not logs)..still
>stopped on a dime.Well if they were doing that they ended up with Flats on the wheels from locking them up, and damaged track from the skid! I Know! been there done that got the t-shirt! LOL Not a good Idea, but for dire emergency use that's not a bad thing I suppose.Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Groquik (12 posts)
May-13-02, 05:24 PM (EDT) 9. "RE: Engine brakes and distributor" HiI don't know this system. But European trains work with UIC distributors which work as I explained on my other postMoreover, all trains in MSTS have brake cylinders pressure at zero when the train move and an positive pressure at brakingTake the Acela for example, the red needle on the right dial climb up to 53 PSI in normal braking, and 70 PSI in emergency braking!
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FozzyBear (1191 posts)
May-13-02, 07:18 PM (EDT) 10. "RE: Engine brakes and distributor" >I don't know this system. But
>European trains work with UIC
>distributors which work as I
>explained on my other post UIC Distributors are only the control system for the non return valves and it's an automatic system if the UIC fails or a car breaks away, then the pressure becomes unequal and the brakes go on. Trust me it's right.Erm which part of Europe are you talking about??? It's not that way in the UK.... Which is what gave Adtrans so much trouble when they suddenly found their brake system specs were being refused over here. And their trains weren't allowed to run till they'd done about two years extra testing on them here. Brand new trains sitting idle for two years, because the manufacturer failed to properly check the brake specification. LOL Nothing changes here! one screw up after another! Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Groquik (12 posts)
May-13-02, 07:56 PM (EDT) 11. "RE: Engine brakes and distributor" I'm French so I speak especially about SNCF locs and carriagesI think finally that the system you've detailed me is between the pipe and the command reservoir.This reservoir is filled by the main pipe but a non-return valve
keeps the pressure in even if the pipe is opened to the atmosphereThe pressure in command reservoir is used as a reference.
If pressure in pipe falls, and since the reference pressure is always the same, the distributor connects brake cylinders to the auxiliary reservoir. The pressure in Cylinders increases and the train is braking.The use of a command reservoir is needed since reference pressure can vary according to the number of carriages.For DMU/EMU, simplified distributors replace command reservoir
by a spring because the reference pressure is always the same in this particular case. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
autonerd (23 posts)
May-13-02, 08:26 PM (EDT) 12. "RE: Engine brakes and distributor" >Once you drop the pressure at
>one end of the cylinder,
>the pressure at the other
>end (which is still connected
>to the reservoir) forces the
>piston forwards and applies the
>brakes! Julian, I don't think you are correct about this. As I understand it, each car has a seperate reservoir that is filled from the brake pipe. To apply the brakes, the engineer reduces pressure in the brake pipe. The reduction is "seen" by the freight car's triple valve which admits air pressure from the car's reservoir to the brake cylinders.Good brake explanation at http://www.trainweb.org/railwaytechnical/brake2.html Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
FozzyBear (1191 posts)
May-14-02, 02:40 PM (EDT) 14. "RE: Engine brakes and distributor" >As I understand it, each car
>has a seperate reservoir that
>is filled from the brake
>pipe. Yes it does!To apply the
>brakes, the engineer reduces pressure
>in the brake pipe.
>The reduction is "seen" by
>the freight car's triple valve
>which admits air pressure from
>the car's reservoir to the
>brake cylinders. Nope! the tripple valve is part of the control system on the locomotive itself... the cars carry a non return valve in the system... I'll dig out a diagram which will explain how it works.... I'm not actually talking about US stock here... you may well be right about it, I don't know a hell of a lot about US stock or exactly how your systems work. I know systems here in the UK because I use them! Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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autonerd (23 posts)
May-14-02, 02:44 PM (EDT) 15. "RE: Engine brakes and distributor" >Nope! the tripple valve is part of the control system on
>the locomotive itself... <sbip> don't know a hell of a lot
>about US stock or exactly how your systems work. I know
>systems here in the UK because I use them! That could very well be the difference! Actually I started reading the link above, in detail, and he mentions a triple valve on each car. I know the guy is British, but I can't tell if he's talking about Brit or US systems - I had assumed they were the same. It's fascinating reading, btw.I haven't gotten to the bit on vacuum brakes yet, that's next!PS - I appreciate the polite disagreement, rather than yelling "You're WRONG WRONG WRONG!" Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
autonerd (23 posts)
May-13-02, 08:29 PM (EDT) 13. "RE: Engine brakes and distributor" BTW Groquick, is your brake type on the locomotive compatible with those on the car? If you are trying to stop a heavy train, loco brakes won't do squat.I discovered this the hard way when first running British stock. Couldn't understand why my train wouldn't brake till I realized that the Class 50 loco had air brakes and the Mk1 coaches had vacuum brakes. Oops. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Groquik (12 posts)
May-14-02, 07:08 PM (EDT) 16. "RE: Engine brakes and distributor" My problem concerns also the loco alone.BTW engine brake is on the loco only, on the other side we have train brake with pipe...etcMy train brake works well, but the engine brake notYou should make a try with the HHP alone or pulling a Metroliner
train brake work very well but engine brake is inefficientNote that my problem concerns only locos with distributors
the engine brake on locos equiped with triple valve works well. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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