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Hack (676 posts)
Apr-30-02, 10:55 PM (EDT) "Settling a Debate: F-Units" There are many here who love F-Units: some folks like TA's version, while some like the one from 3DTrains. Having choices for everyone's a good thing. Lately however, a discussion of accurate F-modeling came up over at TA's forum: someone pointed out TA's F-Unit sits lower than mine. Doesn't really matter - the following pics might better illustrate the accuracy of my F (FWIW, the white box is set to the correct height, width and length, and offset to accomodate the flanges):
By no means am I slamming TA's work, as I feel they've got one of the best modeling teams anywhere. Just setting the facts straight. Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
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Subject Author Message Date ID RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units FozzyBear May-01-02 1 RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units gxm149 May-01-02 2 RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units Andre May-01-02 3 RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units GTJD May-01-02 4 RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units NickF May-01-02 7 RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units Tim_Davis May-01-02 5 RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units ctillier May-01-02 6 RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units Hack May-01-02 9 RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units AlabamaRailfan May-02-02 15 RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units Hack May-02-02 16 RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units Hack May-02-02 17 RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units AlabamaRailfan May-02-02 18 RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units AlabamaRailfan May-02-02 19 RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units Hack May-02-02 22 RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units AlabamaRailfan May-02-02 23 RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units Hack May-01-02 8 RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units TrirailF40PHL May-01-02 10 RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units Hack May-01-02 11 RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units TrirailF40PHL May-01-02 12 RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units Hack May-01-02 14 I think you better go back to your ... Hack May-01-02 13 RE: I think you better go back to y... TrirailF40PHL May-02-02 20 RE: I think you better go back to y... Hack May-02-02 21 RE: I think you better go back to y... ctillier May-02-02 24 RE: I think you better go back to y... Hack May-02-02 26 Gotcha! Makes sense now! TrirailF40PHL May-02-02 25

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FozzyBear (1085 posts)
May-01-02, 02:03 AM (EDT) 1. "RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units" LAST EDITED ON May-01-02 AT 02:37 AM (EDT)<SNIP>
>a discussion of accurate
>F-modeling came up over at
>TA's forum: someone pointed out
>TA's F-Unit sits lower than
>mine. Doesn't really matter -
>the following pics might better
>illustrate the accuracy of my
>F
<SNIP>Looks like nobody in here's too worried either way Marc..... I know I'm not. I actually run both and I've never really thought about which I prefer. Just tend to use whichever set has the livery I want for the consist I'm putting together. I do very much prefer your cabs to the train artisan ones though, but that's just a question of functionality and being comfortable using something I know my way round. Yours come in more flavours so they get used more often. I also think they may be a little more polygon efficient. But either way, both are nice high quality models.Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
gxm149 (238 posts)
May-01-02, 10:16 AM (EDT) 2. "RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units" Personally I am just happy to have all of the freeware locomotives that you, train artisan, NALW and everyone else on here has given us. Thank you to all the designers for the great trains you have given to us with your free time that you have invested in building them. Your work has really made train simulator what it is today and made it a fun program. I still miss the defunct Columbus Locomotive Works though, what ever happened to that group anyway? We lost a great group when they disappeared a while back. Anyway, thanks for the trains you have given us and keep up the great work you guys all do. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Andre (180 posts)
May-01-02, 10:27 AM (EDT) 3. "RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units" Cameron Lashley aka CLW joined TrainArtisanAndré
Web : www.MSTrainStop.com
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GTJD (292 posts)
May-01-02, 11:47 AM (EDT) 4. "RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units" are there Free F-units anywhere?Uncle Charlie,
Hazzard & Southern Railways
Kanto-Johto System
Sodor & Magic Railroads Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
NickF (839 posts)
May-01-02, 07:23 PM (EDT) 7. "RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units" Yeah, speaking of Hack's units...http://www.3dtrains.com/downloads/demo_f7a.shtml Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Tim_Davis (14 posts)
May-01-02, 04:49 PM (EDT) 5. "RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units" Not to knock anyones work but what does this really prove? You stated that the white box is set to the proper dimensions. From the picture you can clearly see that the white box does indeed match the model, but where are the dimensions of the white box? To really settle the debate the size of the white box would need to be verified by a third party. Leaving the developer to provide this type of proof is like leaving the fox to guard the henhouse, if you know what I mean.Does all this really matter anyway? People are going to use whichever model they prefer.Tim Davis Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
ctillier (134 posts)
May-01-02, 07:13 PM (EDT) 6. "RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units" Besides the rivet-counting point, but...I enjoyed taking a look at your mesh. It's impressively low-poly when you compare it to the in-game screenshots.--
Clem

http://www.tillier.net/speedworks/index.html
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Hack (676 posts)
May-01-02, 08:56 PM (EDT) 9. "RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units" Thanks. FWIW, much of the polys were cut-down by using common polys from either front to rear, or from side to side...Steps, for example, use their own right and left sides, but a "common" poly extends from right to left to make up the top, front, back, and bottom of the step. In each case this saved me 8-polys per object, which can add up quickly if done otherwise. Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
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AlabamaRailfan (285 posts)
May-02-02, 09:38 AM (EDT) 15. "RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units" LAST EDITED ON May-02-02 AT 09:43 AM (EDT)Hey Guys,
I have enjoyed reading this thread! One quick question for you, Marc, if you don't mind. You mentioned using a common poly for items such as the steps. This sounds like a great idea and certainly a poly count saver, but it seems like it was brought up (perhaps by Chris of ChrisTrains.com fame) that one of MSTS's weaknesses is handling of intersecting polys...that this would hurt frame rates more than even poly count. Since then I have made every attempt not to have intersecting polys (sometimes, you gotta do what you gotta do) and I was just wondering your take on it?As far as my 2 cents and not to put down anyone in the community's work, as it is all great, I must say that I think Marc's models are the most "dead on balls" accurate (to coin a phrase from the movie "My Cousin Vinnie") I have seen anywhere! Maybe we can persuade him and the 3DT team to do some more MSTS stuff?!Highball!John D. Peterson
Webmaster - AlabamaRailfan.com
http://www.alabamarailfan.com(Insert cool logo here)
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Hack (676 posts)
May-02-02, 10:58 AM (EDT) 16. "RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units" Thanks John - FWIW, I'm still doing MSTS stuff (a hellava' lot more than Trainz at this juncture), but most items are for Abacus for upcoming MTS addons. As for intersecting polys - What I meant was (as in the case of the steps example above) a box that extends from right to left, instead of using a left box and a right one:You'll notice in the second pic that the handrails and steps extend from right to left - eliminating the need for two seperate sides. There's a bit more to it than what's shown here, but I can't be expected to tell all my secrets. Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
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Hack (676 posts)
May-02-02, 11:01 AM (EDT) 17. "RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units" LAST EDITED ON May-02-02 AT 11:02 AM (EDT)BTW, you'll also notice the brake cylinders on the bogies...They too use common polys, but use a transparency to seperate them visually. Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
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AlabamaRailfan (285 posts)
May-02-02, 03:13 PM (EDT) 18. "RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units" Thanks for the info, Marc! You are indeed, the MAN! I understood what you were doing and again, that is a great poly saving technique (hope you don't mind if I steal that one! LOL!)! Since it was brought up that intersecting polys tend to slow MSTS down (I have no proof of this, just what was posted), I guess what I was wondering is, which is a better frame-rate improver: reducing total polygon count or reducing the number of interecting polygons? Spreading the poly across the width of the model helps poly count but seems like it would add some extra intersections with other polys. Am I making sense? LOL!BTW, I have tried and tried to get into Trainz, but just have gotten bitten by the bug yet. Certainly not trying to start a Trainz VS. MSTS debate, but I guess for me, it boils down to I want to do something on my computer that I can't do in real life (I have models I can go play if I want)...like drive a 200 ton locomotive! LOL!

Highball!John D. Peterson
Webmaster - AlabamaRailfan.com
http://www.alabamarailfan.com(Insert cool logo here)
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AlabamaRailfan (285 posts)
May-02-02, 07:51 PM (EDT) 19. "RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units" Hey Marc,
That reminds me, I know you are a busy man, but if you have some spare time, any chance I could contact you off-list with a couple 3DS Max questions?Highball!John D. Peterson
Webmaster - AlabamaRailfan.com
http://www.alabamarailfan.com(Insert cool logo here)
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Hack (676 posts)
May-02-02, 09:46 PM (EDT) 22. "RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units" I should have put more thought into the above - as Chris stated earlier, there is a problem with intersecting polys, but I don't think it hurts frames at all. It appears (to me) that it's a Z-buffer issue in DirectX, and really shows itself in 16-bit color mode. This being a display, not calculation, issue.In 16-color mode, the F-unit will display an odd "flicker" near where the headlight intersects the nose. I haven't noticed it on the handrails, so it may be OK when 90 angles are used. When modeling, I had the choice of getting rid of the flicker and have a model with less-than-acceptable surfaces, or allow the flicker and have smooth maps and surfaces in 32-bit. I chose the latter.John - Email me and I'll do my best to answer your Max questions.Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
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AlabamaRailfan (285 posts)
May-02-02, 09:50 PM (EDT) 23. "RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units" >When modeling,
>I had the choice of
>getting rid of the flicker
>and have a model with
>less-than-acceptable surfaces, or allow the
>flicker and have smooth maps
>and surfaces in 32-bit. I
>chose the latter. And a wise choice I think it was as these are some of the finest units anywhere for MSTS! Thanks! Might be a little later in the week, but I will drop you a note! Thanks so much!Highball!John D. Peterson
Webmaster - AlabamaRailfan.com
http://www.alabamarailfan.com(Insert cool logo here)
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Hack (676 posts)
May-01-02, 08:52 PM (EDT) 8. "RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units" >Does all this really matter anyway? People are going to use whichever model they prefer.Quite true. I suppose I posted the pics to satisfy myself that "I" know the locomotive's properly scaled, regardless of claims to the contrary. Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
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TrirailF40PHL (664 posts)
May-01-02, 09:09 PM (EDT) 10. "RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units" Uh..Marc...you just gave away the secret for a great looking F7 nose...LOL! BTW, have you thought of raising the bottom of the windows to make the model MUCH more prototypical? Here's a pic of what I mean:I really hope your next F7 model will include more prototypical windows like these!Take care Marc!!!Kurt Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hack (676 posts)
May-01-02, 09:19 PM (EDT) 11. "RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units" The polys are shaped and in place, but perhaps haven't been properly mapped or the normals set to show them - I'll have a look.Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
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TrirailF40PHL (664 posts)
May-01-02, 09:25 PM (EDT) 12. "RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units" You mean, you've been working on modified windows?Kurt Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hack (676 posts)
May-01-02, 09:33 PM (EDT) 14. "RE: Settling a Debate: F-Units" Now that I look again at your pics...you're not, by chance, using v1.35 are you?Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
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Hack (676 posts)
May-01-02, 09:32 PM (EDT) 13. "I think you better go back to your skin - LOL" OK, the model's correct - It's your painting that's off. Here's a pic of the model that clearly shows the normals...I had a look at the maps, and there's a small section in the 'A' image where you can bring the color down a few pixels.Whew - (in)sanity's intact. Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
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TrirailF40PHL (664 posts)
May-02-02, 09:13 PM (EDT) 20. "RE: I think you better go back to your skin - LOL" Actually, I am using v1.35 Strech or FP7A v1.0 you could say...It's the strech by Okrasa Ghia, based on the F7 v1.35.You've got a point there about the white going up to the window....I missed that spot, would look better if I fix that!Still, I think the windows' line is a bit higher (on the bottom) on the prototype..here's another picture for you: (I hope I am not driving you nuts, but I really want to see a 100% accurate F7 window in MSTS! You might like to know, I have the same feelings about HO F7s too.)Don't take this the wrong way Marc, I still think your F7s are the best ones ever to be in MSTS!Take care...and keep up that fine work!!!Kurt Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hack (676 posts)
May-02-02, 09:40 PM (EDT) 21. "RE: I think you better go back to your skin - LOL" I don't mind these questions...Makes it fun to share what I know and to learn of things I may have overlooked. I think what you're seeing here is an illusion between the smoothing groups and the separation of the nose from the main section. The nose begins to taper upwards towards the windows, but as it nears them a smoothing group is changed - thus the "high-looking" seam in the pics:The second pic shows the model with welded vertices. While most games/sims don't have a problem with mapping coordinates and smoothing, MTS uses a whole different aspect - welding the above would eliminate all smoothing at joints where the mapping areas or poly ID numbers are different. Rest assured the geometry is correct, but I have to play by some of MTS' silly rules.Cheers!
Marc Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
ctillier (134 posts)
May-02-02, 09:56 PM (EDT) 24. "RE: I think you better go back to your skin - LOL" This is where 3DCanvas could solve your problem.

--
Clem

http://www.tillier.net/speedworks/index.html Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hack (676 posts)
May-02-02, 10:04 PM (EDT) 26. "RE: I think you better go back to your skin - LOL" 3D Canvas solves the mapping issue here? Wow - I didn't know this. I'm on my way to give it a go - thanks for the heads up! Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
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TrirailF40PHL (664 posts)
May-02-02, 10:01 PM (EDT) 25. "Gotcha! Makes sense now!" Ah!!!!I understand...makes sense...double-checked with a couple of photos of me on ol' GO Transit FP7 #904...You know, since MSTS likes to mess all of us up, why don't you try out the way I suggested? It may not be correct in the 3D program, but it would look right in MSTS. My main concern when I build an MSTS model, is "how does it look in the sim?" not how it looks in the 3D program. BTW, I prefer both of your F7s (v1.35, v2.0) to the other ones! Take care!Kurt Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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