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roycru (91 posts)
Feb-28-02, 08:18 AM (EST) "Ban 3 to 3ds" As a propronent of legitate uses for such a program, I'm going to proprose that Nels and train-sim.com ban posting of such a program. Based on the many responces on this foram, I can see that the potential for misuse far out weighs the advantages.I still hold there are legitamate uses to view and modify a design to better fit an end users route. Relettering can easliey be accomplished with tgatool2 but moving details can not. Rather than nit pick I would rather tweek to correct errors for my own use. For example I discovered the locomotive I downloaded for use on the route I'm building is gauged wrong and rides on the ties (sleepers) rather than the rails.I would also like to encourge designers to post 3ds files with proper use restrictions so that the end user could make ligitamate changes.
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Table of Contents
Subject Author Message Date ID RE: Ban 3 to 3ds FozzyBear Feb-28-02 1 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds v1perfan Feb-28-02 2 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds Euston Feb-28-02 3 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds roycru Feb-28-02 4 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds FozzyBear Feb-28-02 5 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds chucksc Feb-28-02 6 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds jtr1962 Mar-01-02 25 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds ronik24 Feb-28-02 7 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds BlakeTyner Feb-28-02 8 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds FozzyBear Feb-28-02 11 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds CSXALine Feb-28-02 9 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds FozzyBear Feb-28-02 10 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds Stew Feb-28-02 12 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds FozzyBear Feb-28-02 13 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds kevarc Feb-28-02 14 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds chucksc Feb-28-02 17 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds kevarc Feb-28-02 19 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds FozzyBear Mar-01-02 23 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds FozzyBear Mar-01-02 22 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds kevarc Mar-01-02 29 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds FozzyBear Mar-01-02 30 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds comtrain Mar-03-02 65 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds CSXALine Mar-01-02 34 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds kevarc Mar-01-02 35 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds nw_fan Feb-28-02 15 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds Stew Feb-28-02 18 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds FozzyBear Mar-01-02 21 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds roycru Mar-01-02 27 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds FozzyBear Mar-01-02 24 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds CSXALine Mar-01-02 33 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds patm41 Feb-28-02 16 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds buzzbenz Mar-01-02 20 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds FozzyBear Mar-01-02 26 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds roycru Mar-01-02 28 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds FozzyBear Mar-01-02 31 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds stationmaster Mar-01-02 36 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds BeeKay Mar-01-02 32 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds comtrain Mar-03-02 66 RE: Ban S to 3ds shapeshifter Mar-01-02 37 RE: Ban S to 3ds chucksc Mar-01-02 38 RE: Ban S to 3ds chucksc Mar-01-02 39 RE: Ban S to 3ds cohearn Mar-01-02 40 RE: Ban S to 3ds chucksc Mar-01-02 41 RE: Ban S to 3ds FozzyBear Mar-01-02 42 RE: Ban S to 3ds wdcalvert Mar-02-02 43 RE: Ban S to 3ds jtr1962 Mar-02-02 44 RE: Ban S to 3ds shapeshifter Mar-02-02 45 RE: Ban S to 3ds FozzyBear Mar-02-02 46 RE: Ban S to 3ds chucksc Mar-02-02 49 RE: Ban S to 3ds JamesRailroadGrant Mar-02-02 50 RE: Ban S to 3ds chucksc Mar-02-02 51 RE: Ban S to 3ds JamesRailroadGrant Mar-02-02 52 RE: Ban S to 3ds FozzyBear Mar-02-02 53 RE: Ban S to 3ds Hinchinbrooke Mar-02-02 48 RE: Ban S to 3ds FozzyBear Mar-02-02 47 RE: Ban S to 3ds Kupa Mar-02-02 54 RE: Ban S to 3ds cohearn Mar-02-02 56 RE: Ban S to 3ds dyvach Mar-02-02 55 RE: Ban S to 3ds shapeshifter Mar-02-02 57 RE: Ban S to 3ds dyvach Mar-02-02 59 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds chrisell Mar-02-02 58 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds BlakeTyner Mar-02-02 60 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds nw_fan Mar-02-02 61 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds nw_fan Mar-02-02 62 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds edwardk Mar-03-02 63 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds chrisell Mar-03-02 64 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds Ranulf Mar-03-02 67 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds nw_fan Mar-03-02 68 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds comtrain Mar-04-02 69 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds chucksc Mar-04-02 70 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds roycru Mar-05-02 71 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds FozzyBear Mar-05-02 72 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds buffy500 Mar-05-02 73 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds roycru Mar-05-02 74 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds FozzyBear Mar-05-02 76 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds buffy500 Mar-05-02 78 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds FozzyBear Mar-05-02 79 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds roycru Mar-05-02 82 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds FozzyBear Mar-05-02 83 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds roycru Mar-06-02 84 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds FozzyBear Mar-06-02 85 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds roycru Mar-06-02 86 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds decapod Mar-05-02 75 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds FozzyBear Mar-05-02 77 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds Dennis Mar-05-02 80 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds buffy500 Mar-05-02 81 RE: Ban 3 to 3ds MKT1972 Mar-06-02 87
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FozzyBear (726 posts)
Feb-28-02, 10:33 AM (EST) 1. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" >As a propronent of legitate uses
>for such a program, I'm
>going to proprose that Nels
>and train-sim.com ban posting of
>such a program. Based
>on the many responces on
>this foram, I can see
>that the potential for misuse
>far out weighs the advantages.
Absolutely!!!!Thanks for that! and I second your proposed ban on upload of any such a util in any form that has any capability whatsoever to extract 3ds files from s files.Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
v1perfan (101 posts)
Feb-28-02, 11:06 AM (EST) 2. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" I agree.It should be up to the designer as to whether or not the user may have access to the files.I personally don't have any problems including my models with any projects I publish, but I would be rather annoyed if I didn't publish the model and someone came along and ripped the project to create their own version of it without my consent.Brian. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Euston (888 posts)
Feb-28-02, 02:30 PM (EST) 3. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" I don't really think it is all that bad - not supporting the .s converter in any way, just trying to calm the panic, that has BeeKay threatening to resign (we can't have that).1) Few people have 3d studio max, and TSM can't import .3ds so there would ne a niche market.2) I don't think there will be mass rip-offs of work. There have been very few (2 or 3) rip-offs of textures, and they are much easier to steal.3) Some people have released their .3ds files in the past and have not had their work plastered across the web.4) The kind of people who steal work, would not probably be good enough train experts to make a new train from an existing model, and there are only a few trainsim sites where it could go, so it would be easy to see if someone had stolen work. People who steal work are usually just in it for the money, and there isn't that much demand for trains yet, especially if it is formerly a freeware file, people will see that it is copied. > . I fully support you and I truely will quit the freeware scene, when my already existing bad feeling that something like a .s converter exists will be confirmed by the detection of any slightly modified model of my locos or hearing that other developers are copied. Beekay.Let's be honest here, who would copy a loco, and just change one minor point, it would be easy to see that this loco is copied.If this was people's style, we would be now have seen hundred's of E8s repainted without credit for example, but it hasn't happened, almost everyone has credited the original designer.Just my few cents - I might be wrong, but I just don't see the need for mass panic.
http://clix.to/trainsim 
Simtrain UK - Payware reviews our speciality Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
roycru (91 posts)
Feb-28-02, 03:25 PM (EST) 4. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" 3dc can import 3ds and is as economical as TSM.
Do a search there is lots of free 3ds files out there from fire hydrants to fighter aircraft. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
FozzyBear (726 posts)
Feb-28-02, 04:03 PM (EST) 5. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" >I don't really think it is
>all that bad
>- not supporting the .s
>converter in any way, just
>trying to calm the panic,
>that has BeeKay threatening to
>resign (we can't have that). Don't you!! My work will also be entirely withdrawn from the community if such a util appears! I will not have my work abused.>1) Few people have 3d studio
>max, and TSM can't import
>.3ds so there would ne
>a niche market. NO TSM can't because it's crap! But 3D Canvas can and it only costs a very little more than TSM. on top of which lots of people have MAX and Canvas just take a look round the forum with your eyes open.>2) I don't think there will
>be mass rip-offs of work.
>There have been very few
>(2 or 3) rip-offs of
>textures, and they are much
>easier to steal. Bullshit!! I personally have had 5 separate rip offs of my textures removed from the file library where people have ignored copyright notices and either not credited my original work or they have not even bothered to ask first. If I alone have had to deal with 5 how many more are there.>3) Some people have released their
>.3ds files in the past
>and have not had their
>work plastered across the web. But that's just the point! A few people have released their 3ds files. THAT IS THEIR CHOICE! this util would take that choice away from designers, because anyone could then just rip the model out of their designs without their consent. This is an infringement of Designers freedoms and rights.>4) The kind of people who
>steal work, would not probably
>be good enough train experts
>to make a new train
>from an existing modelRubbish!! Try telling that to the flight sim community who have had multiple models ripped off on multiple occasions!>Let's be honest here, who would
>copy a loco, and just
>change one minor point, it
>would be easy to see
>that this loco is copied. That's not the point! this is not just about piracy! I don't want my work altered. That's my right!! It's my property!! I have a right to determine how that property is used. I personally don't want my models mangled by every Tom Dick and Harry thank you. Quite simple if someone has the skill to alter a model they also have the skill to build one!! >Just my few cents - I
>might be wrong, but I
>just don't see the need
>for mass panic. You are wrong and there is no Mass Panic. This is a matter of breach of our rights to our intellectual property! when you build models and actually know how many hours work go into it, then you'll be qualified to comment on it. Until you do that you have no idea and no right to make sweeping statements quoting facts that are totally wrong.Get your facts right before you make this sort of post!Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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chucksc (1139 posts)
Feb-28-02, 04:48 PM (EST) 6. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" Hey Foz....
Very well reasoned!
However, I think you forgot the main reason which is: Most of us older lads are refugees from the flight sim community so we have bitter knowledge of what happens if this krap is not nipped in the bus... The scenario goes like this... You release an excellent product as freeware.... Some bozo in lower slobovia reverse engineers it and rips it.... He/she/it then includes it on a CD that shows up for sale in some part of the world you don't frequent and makes money.... The real arrogant ones.... Just flat out steal it and do the same often posting it back in the same venue they stole it from. And does everybody remember the jerk who duped American Airlines into granting him an exclusive use of their marks and logos for payware (So they said) and then tried to aggressively enforce it on freeware developers and sites... Until someone finally took him up on his threats of legal action (overseas not in the US) and many people cancelled their Frequent Flyer Club memberships with AA and cited this dude by name rank and sock size.... AA finally stepped in and sorted him out after several websites were crippled or closed down and developers bailed out... Thus diminshing the community....
We are determined not to see that happen over here....
We will bring all the pressure to bear that we can to outlaw these tools... IMHO they are the modeling equivelent of radar detectors which my local Va. State Police assure me have no valid legal purpose except to evade prosecution.
Flame Off!
------Chuck Schneider---------
-----"Power for You"------- Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jtr1962 (67 posts)
Mar-01-02, 05:38 AM (EST) 25. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" >We will bring all the pressure
>to bear that we can
>to outlaw these tools... IMHO
>they are the modeling equivelent
>of radar detectors which my
>local Va. State Police assure
>me have no valid legal
>purpose except to evade prosecution.
>
>Flame Off!
>------Chuck Schneider---------
What about the person who may want to alter a model for their own use, and has no intention of uploading it as freeware or selling it as payware? Sure, they could e-mail the original author(s), but if there are many models, this is likely to be quite a chore, and as well as time consuming for the downloads. My point is that there are non-nefarious uses for such a tool. The simple fact is someone will come up with such a tool sooner or later, and whether or not train-sim hosts it is irrelevent. That might slow down it's spread a bit, but eventually anyone who wants it will have it. I certainly understand your point about not wanting to have your work ripped off. I wouldn't care for that myself, and in fact I had a rather nasty sounding legal notice in the readme when I uploaded my fcalc utility for just that reason. From what I've seen so far, at least in the downloads section, people have been giving credit when using someone else's model or textures. I would personally go one step further and ask for the person's permission before doing anything. We can all lead by example, and simply ostracize anyone who feels that they can take anyone's work and pass it off as their own, but to suggest banning certain types of utilities starts us down a slippery slope that I would rather not travel.P.S. Virginia is 100% in the wrong to ban radar detectors since speed limits are purposely set too low and therefore serve more of a revenue function than a safety function. Even many ex-police officers will openly admit to this. A good driver can drive safety at any speed, including well into the triple digits, because he/she will have the judgement to drive no faster than road, vehicle, and personal conditions allow. A poor driver will be unsafe even at or below the so-called speed limit. Germany doesn't even have speed limits on the autobahns for this reason, and their roads are for the most part less open than our interstates. If people want to evade a law that logically makes no sense, they are within their right to. BTW, you don't have to worry about me flying down Virginia's highways at triple digit speeds. I don't bother driving for exactly the reason that the traffic laws cater to the lowest common denominator, not to mention that I live in NYC where driving doesn't make a whole lot of sense, anyway. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
ronik24 (201 posts)
Feb-28-02, 05:22 PM (EST) 7. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" I don't agree that TSM is crap, because it's far easier to use and simply better for its purpose than any other program (tried them all).
You can import 3ds into TSM via FSDS.Greetings,
Roni Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
BlakeTyner (116 posts)
Feb-28-02, 07:46 PM (EST) 8. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" Dude, it's a pretty simple job to make a .s file into a .3ds file. Anyone with a programing background can do it and release it via email, their own personal site, morpheus, etc. Even if it isn't available for download here people will still get it. I know making even a simple model takes a LOT of time and effort and there are people out there that would rip the model off...but don't think for a second they just CAN'T do it...because they can. Personally, I just had my roomate come up with a way for me to do it so I could fix issues with some 3D shapes for my own personal benefit. As for me, if and when I do upload an actual 3D model I've created I don't care if somebody changes one tiny thing and uploads it again. I'm not losing money either way. I just want everybody to enjoy this GAME and not take issue if somebody thinks their work sucks or whatever. That's my 2 cents.Blake Harris
Vice Dean, Limbaugh Institute for Advanced Conservative Studies
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FozzyBear (726 posts)
Feb-28-02, 09:25 PM (EST) 11. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds"
>don't think for a second
>they just CAN'T do it...because
>they can. We're well aware it CAN be done Blake otherwise there would be little point in a thread that said "should such a util be banned from upload to train-sim.com" The answer to that is "YES IT SHOULD"Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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CSXALine (474 posts)
Feb-28-02, 08:52 PM (EST) 9. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-02 AT 08:54 PM (EST)FozI personally Like TSM and I Think your comments are a little harsh.
Jason Webb
The Seaboard Coast Line/CSX A Line from Tampa Florida to Jacksonville, FL
http://sclcsxaline.cjb.net/
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FozzyBear (726 posts)
Feb-28-02, 09:21 PM (EST) 10. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-02 AT 09:27 PM (EST)>I personally Like TSM and I
>Think your comments are a
>little harsh. It was one comment not comments about TSM! In fact it was a single word comment!AS IN:
>NO TSM can't because it's crap!
>But 3D Canvas can and it only costs a very
>little more than TSM.And on top of that it's a personal oppinion. If you like TSM Great! use it. I personally find it to be full of bugs, have poor support response, have dreadful faulty tutorials, have poor modelling capabilities when compared to 3D Canvas or Max and to have poor and buggy export capability.If you havn't used MAX or Canvas you have no basis for comparison?? So you would have to show me that you have working knowledge of those programs and or others in order to question me describing it as crap!! IMHO In comparison with Max and Canvas it is crap!! In the end it's a matter of personal choice, if you like TSM fine use it! But I personally stand by my statement having tried it and used a lot of other 3D software that in my oppinion it's CRAP! I didn't say it wasn't easy to use... it is that! but that doesn't get away from the fact that it's very restricted in its capabilities.But The whole point of the statement was that Euston said, very few people could import a 3ds file because TSM couldn't do it... That is untrue!!! Many people also use MAX and Canvas and therefore CAN import 3ds files which I think you will find is the point of this thread... it's not here to debate the merits of particular 3D software.Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Stew (96 posts)
Feb-28-02, 09:56 PM (EST) 12. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-02 AT 09:58 PM (EST)>But The whole point of the
>statement was that Euston said,
>very few people could import
>a 3ds file because TSM
>couldn't do it... That is
>untrue!!! Many people also use
>MAX and Canvas and therefore
>CAN import 3ds files which
>I think you will find
>is the point of this
>thread... it's not here to
>debate the merits of particular
>3D software.
>
>Best Regards,
>Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
>
>
What's the point of having 3DS import capability? I don't see many MSTS useful 3DS's being uploaded here. And if you have a modelling application why not build your own rather than import someone else's work?Stew Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
FozzyBear (726 posts)
Feb-28-02, 10:02 PM (EST) 13. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-02 AT 10:14 PM (EST)>What's the point of having 3DS
>import capability? I don't see
>many MSTS useful 3DS's being
>uploaded here. And if you
>have a modelling application why
>not build your own rather
>than import someone else's work? It can come in very handy if you work with other people at any time Stew.For example This last week I've been helping Danny to straighten out the bugs in his Dash 8 Model and do the import to MSTS for him. He works in 3D Studio Max, I work In 3D Canvas. You can see from the above that it's useful to be able to exchange files and work on them. It allowed a new model to be released this week! Danny's first MSTS Locomotive. and stunning it is too.BUT your question here is interesting. That's the point of the thread. Should we allow people to extract 3ds files from the s files that the game uses. I say NO because that pottentially takes rights away from designers. It opens the opportunity to steal models and model work. that's just the point! A few people HAVE released their 3ds files. Right now they have that as a choice! this converter util would take that choice away from designers, because anyone could then just rip the model out of their designs without their consent. Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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kevarc (419 posts)
Feb-28-02, 10:42 PM (EST) 14. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" Fozzy if it bother you that much, just take your toys and go home. There is always someone who will do this, it is a fact of life, live with it.Kevin Arceneaux Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
chucksc (1139 posts)
Feb-28-02, 11:39 PM (EST) 17. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" Hey Kevin
It bothers all of us... And not because some one may edit our files or change a headlight around specifically.... Its that they may fail to give us credit for the original work... We have put tons of hours in on some of this stuff and the only compensation we get is the admiration of our peers and the respect of the MSTS community. The real world keeps thousands of patent and copywrite attorneys busy over just those issues... If all we were worrying about was other freeware authors relabeling our stuff as theirs than that is very important but not the end of the world as we could embarass them in the community and eventually drive them out.... Its the unscrupulous(sic) SOBs who would then turn around and sell OUR MODELS and Line THEIR POCKETS off of our EFFORTS that really raises everybodies hackles... Believe me as a veteran of the FS wars it'll happen... So why make their job any easier? And anyone who built such a tool would find them ostracised from the mainstream MSTS community... Banned from all kinds of boards and forums for openers.....------Chuck Schneider---------
-----"Power for You"------- Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
kevarc (419 posts)
Feb-28-02, 11:56 PM (EST) 19. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" Chuck, my point is that there will alwys be someone who will do this, can't get away from that, the thing is that when someone does it, slam'em. As I have gotten deeper and deeper into this I understand the work you folks do to make these great models. When I screwed up, I learned my lesson real fast and took my lumps, as I should have. But it is true that not all will do this.Kevin Arceneaux Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
FozzyBear (726 posts)
Mar-01-02, 05:32 AM (EST) 23. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-02 AT 06:08 AM (EST)>Chuck, my point is that there
>will alwys be someone who
>will do this, can't get
>away from that, the thing
>is that when someone does
>it, slam'em. As I
>have gotten deeper and deeper
>into this I understand the
>work you folks do to
>make these great models.
>When I screwed up, I
>learned my lesson real fast
>and took my lumps, as
>I should have. But
>it is true that not
>all will do this. That's funny Kevin! telling me to take my toys and go home makes that point does it... (makes mental note:must remember that! when kevin insults me it means "You ALL Make Great Models")The point you actually made, was to have a go at me for defending the community that we have all spent time building.Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
FozzyBear (726 posts)
Mar-01-02, 05:25 AM (EST) 22. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" >Fozzy if it bother you that
>much, just take your toys
>and go home. There
>is always someone who will
>do this, it is a
>fact of life, live with
>it. Well thankyou for that Kevin I'm sure that improved the debate no end. I on the other hand refuse to enter a battle of wits with someone so clearly unarmed.Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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kevarc (419 posts)
Mar-01-02, 09:04 AM (EST) 29. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" Foz, its amazing that somebody as obviously intellegent as you would start that name calling. All I said was if you don't like, leave. Maybe you could form a mutual admiration society with the other one that left not to long ago since you both appear well suited for each other. Do you honestly think that by banning 3 to 3ds here is going to stop the poeple who want to to that? If you do, then you are the one that is dumber than a fence post.Kevin Arceneaux Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
FozzyBear (726 posts)
Mar-01-02, 09:46 AM (EST) 30. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" >Foz, its amazing that somebody as
>obviously intellegent as you would
>start that name calling.
>All I said was if
>you don't like, leave. Maybe
>you could form a mutual
>admiration society with the other
>one that left not to
>long ago since you both
>appear well suited for each
>other. Do you honestly
>think that by banning 3
>to 3ds here is going
>to stop the poeple who
>want to to that?
>If you do, then you
>are the one that is
>dumber than a fence post.
OK Kevin,
Lets put a stop to this right now shall we. It doesn't help anybody! Not only do you insult me in the first place but now do it again!! I'm quite happy to let it go I suggest for the benefit of others you do the same. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
comtrain (143 posts)
Mar-03-02, 07:20 PM (EST) 65. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" >>Fozzy if it bother you that
>>much, just take your toys
>>and go home. There
>>is always someone who will
>>do this, it is a
>>fact of life, live with
>>it.
>
>Well thankyou for that Kevin I'm
>sure that improved the debate
>no end. I on the
>other hand refuse to enter
>a battle of wits with
>someone so clearly unarmed.
>
>Regards,
>Julian (Fozzy The Bear) Mate!
I really do sympathise with you. You got a wheel barrow to push and you are going to push it.
But this whole debate worries me. (for all the reasons discussed in too many threads, that are swamping this forum, and bringing out the worst in us)
Like the little boy in Holland, we think putting our finger in the hole will save the world, but if the hole is not yet leaking, what good does it do him, if he stays their till he drops! This thread is taking too much space and it can't be doing you any good, and that worries me.
One previous post said something like..'well if it is going to cause you to yell so loud, guess I am going to make this convertor and post it just because you don't want me to!'
Maybe enough has been said and we should just go about our business and remain vigilant.
Cheers
Comtrain
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CSXALine (474 posts)
Mar-01-02, 11:16 AM (EST) 34. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds"
Face it Foz is grumpy, this is a game for christs sake, why do we have to fight.
Jason Webb
The Seaboard Coast Line/CSX A Line from Tampa Florida to Jacksonville, FL
http://sclcsxaline.cjb.net/
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kevarc (419 posts)
Mar-01-02, 11:18 AM (EST) 35. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" True.Kevin Arceneaux Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
nw_fan (269 posts)
Feb-28-02, 10:46 PM (EST) 15. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" What's the difference between someone releasing a new skin for your model and someone releasing different headlight versions for your model? Don't scream at me just yet, it's just food for thought. But why is everyone so worried about models, but not textures on the model? and for the record, I'm not advocating the ability to re-engineer existing models. I have yet to decide how I would feel. From one aspect, it might cause the overall quality of models to increase at a faster rate.Mike
Norfolk & Western
Precision Transportation Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Stew (96 posts)
Feb-28-02, 11:55 PM (EST) 18. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" Declaring a ban on this site to such an application is admirable...but it will do little to discourage those who're determined to make one. To play devil's advocate, this is a 'dangerous' part of 3DC. Inexpensive and yet powerful in the open format of the scripting. Given the uproar over not wanting a convertor freely available it's doubtful that we'll see one appear that works with 3DC. But no one can be certain that all of us that have 3DC are ethical either.Which brings up another point. I think it's reasonable to say that, when you consider it's cost, there's most likely more than a few illegal copies of MAX floating around in the hands of unknown Train Sim fans. We have no way of knowing which of the models residing here or else where we're made with an illegal copy of MAX. (Hopefully none of them!) So we go about greedily downloading while being victims to the piracy involved that brought that model into our lives. Only the pirate who made it knows which they are...but it doesn't make it any better. Sharing the 3DS file with others is fine...but what if it was created in a pirate copy of MAX? If it was, then anyone who uses that file and encourages sharing more of them is a party to the piracy whether they know it or not. It's well and good to say a definite 'NO' to not having an *.s file convertor in the download area of Train-Sim.com, but ultimately we have no real say over a convertor being available at all. It's unfair to assume that a convertor only has value for ripping off others. But there seems to be a fair amount of trust in how the large quantity of models we have now came about. Particularly before 3DC and TSM. Stew Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
FozzyBear (726 posts)
Mar-01-02, 05:21 AM (EST) 21. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" >It's unfair to assume
>that a convertor only has
>value for ripping off others.True! I will admit that it would have a use if you were designing a personal route that you did not intend to distribute. BUT are you prepared to be the one who opens the flood gates, takes the lid off pandoras box, lets the cat out of the bag...... etc etc The dangers inherant in such a converter are far greater than the benefits. If a designer wants you to have access to his source files he will freely give them to you and some do!!! Which renders this util obsolete. If on the other hand a Designer does not wish to give you the source files and you then used this Util to extract them, even for your own private use. you would then be guilty of the same decompilation piracy that you are decrying in the rest of your post.
>But there seems to be
>a fair amount of trust
>in how the large quantity
>of models we have now
>came about. Particularly before 3DC
>and TSM. True! But that's not the issue here, and while I deplore any form of Piracy we can't control how people build models and you do have a valid point in that. What is the issue however is that we can help stop the spread of a utility which would damage ALL of our interests.Why would it damage all of our interests?? because if this util appears Several designers will stop releasing models many other designers will move from producing freeware models to making them payware... Simply to cover the legal costs of policing their intelectual property and many others will not be so encouraged to begin modelling if their models are going to get ripped off!Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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roycru (91 posts)
Mar-01-02, 08:16 AM (EST) 27. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" THANK YOU
at last you've admitted that there is a legitimate use.
as I stated when starting this thread however it appears that the potential for abuse outweighs the advantages. It's unfortunate that we all lose out due to a few abusers. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
FozzyBear (726 posts)
Mar-01-02, 05:37 AM (EST) 24. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-02 AT 06:11 AM (EST)
>What's the difference between someone releasing
>a new skin for your
>model and someone releasing different
>headlight versions for your model?
> Don't scream at me
>just yet, it's just food
>for thought. But why
>is everyone so worried about
>models, but not textures on
>the model? We're not! the point is that it's MY right to deside if I want my model altered. It's also my right not to have it redistributed by some commercial pirate, because some idiot gave them the tools to do it with. We're all well aware that we can't stop someone from writing such a Util. But we can slow down the spread of illegitimate use.Your point about it increasing the quality of models at a faster rate, is I think not a valid one. It's more likely that it would decrease the quality of models! Making it easier to bolt bits of crud onto a good locomotive is hardly likely to increase the quality of the model. The way to increase the quality of models is to encourage more people to have a go at making them. This util would in fact discourage that if those people live in fear of someone stealing their hard work.Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
CSXALine (474 posts)
Mar-01-02, 11:12 AM (EST) 33. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" I have used both 3DS max and 3DCanvasso yes i do have a basis for comparisonJason Webb
The Seaboard Coast Line/CSX A Line from Tampa Florida to Jacksonville, FL
http://sclcsxaline.cjb.net/
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patm41 (672 posts)
Feb-28-02, 11:30 PM (EST) 16. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds"
whats to stop someone from posting the conversion program on their personal web site.. any one with has the url can d/l it change the shape files to their needs and post the finished product here... IT will happen just give it time...patm41
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buzzbenz (468 posts)
Mar-01-02, 04:56 AM (EST) 20. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" Well, that is true - others can make a utility and post it on a private site. But that does not mean train-sim.com should host it! I usually hate banning ANYTHING, but this is one exception. If this site won't post it (and i hope they don't), it just makes it that much harder to find. Besides, i can see no other use for a .s to .3ds converter except to open and edit work that is not yours. I have all my source .3dc files, what good would such a utility do for my own models? If you just want to make "one little change", why not just e-mail the author of the work, explain what you want to do, re-assure him/her that they will be crdited for their work, and ask for the source files? Or ask if they can make the change themselves?------ BUZZ ------
----- "Power for You" ----- Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
FozzyBear (726 posts)
Mar-01-02, 05:59 AM (EST) 26. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds"
>explain what you want to
>do, re-assure him/her that they
>will be crdited for their
>work, and ask for the
>source files? Or ask
>if they can make the
>change themselves?
Buzz Has a very valid point there Pat.I'm only too happy to look at changes to models in order to suit another users wishes. That's one of the reasons I'm spending so much time asking what people would like to see on the K-36. I'm always happy to add something to a model if I think it's a valid addition. In some cases if I respected the work of another designer, I would also be happy to hand over my source files for them to do it themselves. For example Marc at 3DTrains will be getting source files for the K-36 because he wants to do a conversion for Trainz. BUT again I have to point out that right now! that is MY Choice this Util would take that choice away from me and every other designer. We may not be able to stop it! but we can do everything in our power to slow it down. Everybody on this forum can help to do that.Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy the Bear)
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roycru (91 posts)
Mar-01-02, 08:27 AM (EST) 28. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" EXCELLENT
Accomplishes both goals. Protecting (as little as that is) design and still allowing legitamite changes. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
FozzyBear (726 posts)
Mar-01-02, 10:08 AM (EST) 31. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" >EXCELLENT
>Accomplishes both goals. Protecting (as little
>as that is) design and
>still allowing legitamite changes.
There is another posibility in the pipeline!! It mat well be possible to place encryption into the Compressed .S file which would prevent it from being uncompressed but would still allow MSTS to read it properly. I'm doing some experiments on that, and If the results are good I will post the information in the forum... It could entirely solve this dilema we all face.Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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stationmaster (374 posts)
Mar-01-02, 12:00 PM (EST) 36. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" Julian,I've been thinking along similar lines. My idea is to create an encrypted .3DS file and a tool that can allow a user to add detail parts without giving access to the original source. This would meet the needs of modellers like me, who want users to be able add detail parts without having to release my source files un-protected.Ron Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
BeeKay (23 posts)
Mar-01-02, 10:35 AM (EST) 32. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" Hi all,
since I was quoted here with a statement from another thread of this forum and since the subject really bothers me, I have to come in again. I am pretty sure that (at least some) companies selling add-ons for MSTS already own such a tool and that the team-members are not allowed to talk about this fact.
So the whole thread here and the previous threads are only ways to market (advertize) such a tool for the innocents not yet having it. BTW, I don't have it and I even don't want it! I always loved the challenge to find new solutions for every new loco and its specific problems, maybe that's the thrill in MSTS for me. However, I don't want somebody to make money out of my work in going the easy way. Concerning the compromise which is developing now in this thread, starting with Buzz from NALW, I just want to say that I already practise it, like Julian said as well. I made a change in the model to my E-94 Electric Freight Loco for an Austrian MSTS friend who e-mailed me that he wanted a specific loco variant used only on a special route. I made the changes to the shape and sent the new .s file to him with my agreement to release the whole new package under his name (he still had to do the reskinning of the loco and other details like .eng etc.). If it were bigger changes and a broader interest in the variant to many train simmers, I would have released it under my name. That's the way, I think we should proceed in the future and which makes us (the freeware community) so flexible in the interaction with our "customers". A service, any commercial company will never go. I very often receive e-mails with questions how I did this and that and even from beginners asking what program I use to build a loco (although it's every time stated in the readme.txt). I always have a nice chat about many things in the hobby and that's what I love, even with the rare time I have. But I am getting nervous and allergic when I have to fear that commercial interests are the driving factor. But we can easily drain this in producing better models, routes, activities, you name it, at any time, not waiting for half year intervals to release a new version of something. That's our strength and in doing so, I think we are already driving the commercial side to ever increasing higher standards. We all profit from that and in the end the credit goes back to us.
But let's always be cautious of the big mouthed "designers", ripping off our models and selling them as their own, without bringing something new and significantly better quality into the game.
Sorry for being this long, but I have the feeling we did not yet reach the bottom of the jar we opened.
And on the subject of the encryption of the files, I thought as well of such a possibility, but it can only be achieved by the help of Microsoft/Kuju. They in the end have to read the encrypted file for using it in the simulator. So only they can provide us with an effective "encryptor" and have to keep the "decryptor" under very strict control. This helps for a while (not forever).
Have a good weekend and strive for being better and faster all the time, there is our strength. I am off now for the hospital and a little operation, so I can't participate in the dicussion for approx. two weeks. See you all later in this great forum.
Bernd K. Diehl alias BeeKay Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
comtrain (143 posts)
Mar-03-02, 07:38 PM (EST) 66. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" ? If you just
>want to make "one little
>change", why not just e-mail
>the author of the work,
>explain what you want to
>do, re-assure him/her that they
>will be crdited for their
>work, and ask for the
>source files? Or ask
>if they can make the
>change themselves?
>
>------ BUZZ ------
>
>----- "Power for You" ----- First straight up front I don't want this convertor!
second the quote above does not seem to work! many times I have found a model that almost matches a Local one found here in Australia, Sometimes the changes I needed were minor, sometimes as much as 20%, I guess I have made 15 or 16 requests, and except for two cases, never recieved a reply!
The two answers I recieved included the files I needed. and I was told I was welcome to alter to my hearts desire. Well I am trying to. But nether file works with my prog...anyway I don't know why the others did not want to answer, but another might accept their lack of interest and use a convertor? And no,I have never needed to ask Fozzy...he answers his mail!
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shapeshifter (4 posts)
Mar-01-02, 12:06 PM (EST) 37. "RE: Ban S to 3ds" This thread got me interested - it took me 8 hours to write an import for S files into 3D Canvas pro....
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chucksc (1139 posts)
Mar-01-02, 02:12 PM (EST) 38. "RE: Ban S to 3ds" >This thread got me interested -
>it took me 8 hours
>to write an import for
>S files into 3D Canvas
>pro....
>We are impressed! Not! If you read the thread carefully you would have noticed that no one said it couldn't be done. As a matter of fact those of us who are IT professionals know damn well it can and fairly easily for a competent programmer... What the discussion is all about, and you seem to have missed this point entirely, was the ethics of doing it and how best to control those among us who might be ethically challenged! Apparently you decided to prove you could pee higher on the tree than anyone else after totally missing the point that anyone who did this would be viewed by the rest of the community as having a small "putz"!
Congratulations, you have just won my emnity and an instant nomination to Nels to ban you from our community...
Have a nice day!------Chuck Schneider---------
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chucksc (1139 posts)
Mar-01-02, 02:16 PM (EST) 39. "RE: Ban S to 3ds" The "accomplishment" of writing this is not a mark of achievement at all as any marginally competent beginner in the programming arts should be able to do this given that the file formats are semi-public knowledge. An accomplishment would be Building a "Big Boy" or a new route like the PO&N or HBS.... IMHO the writing of this, you should only laugh, "tool" is the electronic equivelent of "picking your nose in public"....
Jerk!------Chuck Schneider---------
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cohearn (21 posts)
Mar-01-02, 05:15 PM (EST) 40. "RE: Ban S to 3ds" Hi All,I agree with the preceding message. Also banning is a form of censorship and I don't believe that we should go that route. In any case these utilities get around. Since I mentioned the reality of file conversion utilities becoming available sooner or later, it has generated a large volume of interchanges, pro and con. Therefore, I feel obligated to propose a solution(if it can be made to work). Believe it or not, Julian(Fozzy the Bear) and I, completely independant of each other, came to this same conclusion. Some form of lock on a binary .s file is required. Actually this should probably apply to texture files also. This lock has to be chosen by an owner/developer. This lock must prevent the file from being decompiled in the case of an *.s file or converted in the case of an *.ace file. The files must still load and run in MSTS. Again, if this works, this system will solve all user's concerns when a file conversion tool ever becomes available. The first group are owner/developers, who desire no one to access their files, unless they personally send a copy to a requestor. Their freedom and rights of ownership will be protected from unethical amateurs, but not totally from real pirates. However, there is no motive for real pirates anyway(no money). The second group consists of developers who may want to allow parts usage, or file merging while maintaining some protection for other elements. This is a harder issue to tackle and will depend on what can be done. The third group, who have no concern about others having full access to their downloads, will continue as is. The fourth group are the users, who may want to tweek open downloads, utilize parts selections, MSTS furnished engines, wagons, objects, track/road sections, etc. They will have freedom to do so.This sketch only provides a bare bones outline toward a possible solution where freedom of choice is possible. We don't know whether it will work or not, but we intend to find out. Also, suggestions, experiment information, comments-positive or negative, are welcome.Regards to all,cohearn
cohearn@cox.net
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chucksc (1139 posts)
Mar-01-02, 06:46 PM (EST) 41. "RE: Ban S to 3ds" "Also banning is a form of censorship"
Actually so is prison! for criminals! LOL!
I like your idea.... The problem as I see it will be to get MS/Kuju to go along with it... MS never did on FS! Stuff like this costs money to impliment... Lets hope we get further in this community....------Chuck Schneider---------
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FozzyBear (726 posts)
Mar-01-02, 07:45 PM (EST) 42. "RE: Ban S to 3ds"
>I like your idea.... The problem
>as I see it will
>be to get MS/Kuju to
>go along with it... MS
>never did on FS! Stuff
>like this costs money to
>impliment... Lets hope we get
>further in this community.... First of all I can confirm what Cohearn said! we both canme up with this idea independantly on the same day, mostly as a result of e-mails that went backwards and forwards between us.Actually Chuck, I don't think it'll require any interaction from MS/KUJU Because what we're proposing is not to change the format which the game can read, but to change the format which will be accepted in the process of decompressing the .s file. This way, the format as far as the game is concerned is still a compressed .s file, but as far as unpacking it to a form which can be read as a Unicode .s file, the spoiler code will prevent that. We need to use a system where the designer provides a unique master key. The same way that e-mail can be encrypted I think a 64bit encryption key would do a very good job of protection and given that each designer would create their own master key, any pirate who wanted to access files without consent would have an (almost) impossible time doing it because they'd have to crack each one separately and a 64bit key would take a lot of time to crack making it almost not worth the processing time involved.Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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wdcalvert (45 posts)
Mar-02-02, 00:12 AM (EST) 43. "RE: Ban S to 3ds" To all concerned, I have been following this thread almost daily, and I have one question. If you implement a lock on your *.s source file, will it prohibit users who download your creations from changing the "skin"? When you release a model to the general public, it's mostly in the road of "your" choice. Is my desire to change the livery going to be denied? I only ask this because someone mentioned that TGATool should not have been released either. Thanks for listening.
WDCalvert Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jtr1962 (67 posts)
Mar-02-02, 01:13 AM (EST) 44. "RE: Ban S to 3ds" Not to start a flame war, but some of the ideas suggested by the people in this thread are rather disturbing, to say the least. Encrypting .s files and especially textures is a bad idea, period, assuming it can even by made to work in MSTS(something I highly doubt, anyway). I've uncompressed, edited, and recompressed the .s files of just about every add-on I've ever installed. Why? Because the LinearMipLinear fix improves the appearance far more in my system than just the better known, more widely used -3 texture fix (which sometimes still isn't present, either). This is for my personal use only. I've also occasionally either touched up a texture, resaved with TGA tool in compressed format to save space(I saved over 200 MB in my Trainset folder by doing this), or enlarged it from 256x256 to 512x512 for better appearance. Once again, solely for my personal use.Now everyone here is figuring that someone will eventually invent an .s to .3ds tool, so let's go one step further and try to defeat such a tool. And let's encrpyt textures while we're at it. And so some determined programmer with a lot of motivation and time on his hands will come up with a way to defeat the encryption, and so on. WAKE UP PEOPLE!!! Our idiot countries have been playing a similar stupid game for years, and are we any more secure because of it? I think not. I thought we were all better than this. Any protection scheme will be defeated, and the person who is trying to make money will be more motivated than the person making freeware, so in the end you'll mainly be hurting the casual user without time to waste decrypting things, and the real pirates who make money will find a way around encryption. How long did it take for PA to be defeated in Windows XP, for example? To be fair, I couldn't care less if an .s to .3ds tool comes out since I don't model trains(yet), and I don't have 3DStudioMax, but encrypting would definitely hurt me, and probably discourage me from contributing any more freeware to the MSTS community.If any of you really feel this continued need for encryption, then go ahead, but please put a notice in your upload file description that the add-on contains encrypted shape and/or texture files so people like myself will steer clear of it(especially if it is payware). And while I'm at it I'll also see if it is possible for Nels to prevent anyone who does such encryption from downloading any add-ons that I put in the train-sim file library, and I'm sure others will want to do likewise. If anybody here wants to start a war over this, be my guest. I'll fire the first shot, but the real losers will be the MSTS users who will be denied add-ons because people like myself are disgusted by the paranoid attitude of certain people here.This thread made me lose a great deal of respect for a number of regulars in these forums. I don't post often, and generally only post when I feel I can either help, compliment, and add something to a discussion, but I really felt certain things needed to be said here, and let the chips fall where they may. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
shapeshifter (4 posts)
Mar-02-02, 03:52 AM (EST) 45. "RE: Ban S to 3ds" thanks for all the kind words - now does anyone want a copy (Sorry, I'm not a great believer in censorship and a lot of those models could do with improving) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
FozzyBear (726 posts)
Mar-02-02, 09:14 AM (EST) 46. "RE: Ban S to 3ds" >thanks for all the kind words
>- now does anyone want
>a copy
>
>(Sorry, I'm not a great believer
>in censorship and a lot
>of those models could do
>with improving)
You are about to destroy this community and reduce the number of models that get released and have work withdrawn from the file library. If that's what you really want...You are in fact a sociopathic irresponsible jerk who should be strung up by his knackers from the nearest tree!! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
chucksc (1139 posts)
Mar-02-02, 09:23 AM (EST) 49. "RE: Ban S to 3ds" Not to worry Foz... I have alerted Nels that this Bozo is either a Hacker or a Troll and in either case is now persona non grata....
Hopefully Nels will agree and that will be the end of this disruptive influence....------Chuck Schneider---------
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JamesRailroadGrant (3 posts)
Mar-02-02, 12:01 PM (EST) 50. "RE: Ban S to 3ds" >thanks for all the kind words
>- now does anyone want
>a copy
>
>(Sorry, I'm not a great believer
>in censorship and a lot
>of those models could do
>with improving)
I don't believe in censorship either. I usually only lurk in here and just read stuff. But I'm sick of all this BS. You can mail me a copy of the 3D Canvas add on over straight away my friend because that just proves the point that these fools can't tell us what to do.James Grantjamesrailroadgrant@yahoo.co.uk
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chucksc (1139 posts)
Mar-02-02, 12:26 PM (EST) 51. "RE: Ban S to 3ds" Another "Rebel" 13year old is heard from. Isn't puberty soon over for you guys??????
(No offense J-C RG-Dude and a couple of other RESPONSIBLE members of the community)You miss the point sir! You can do any damn thing you want on your PC with files on your PC. The problem that I and 99% of the developers have begins when they upload them... And They will, Slugs like that always do... Just to prove they have a small PP or something! All this anti-social behavior usually stops at about the time some young lady bestows her favors on these guys.... I can't wait till this one gets there too!BTW, How come all these posts supporting this "utility" are from people wth less than 10 posts and all have yahoo or hotmail addresses and purport to be lurkers who have never posted before.... I smell a rat! Might be the same TROLL stirring the pot!------Chuck Schneider---------
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JamesRailroadGrant (3 posts)
Mar-02-02, 12:58 PM (EST) 52. "RE: Ban S to 3ds" >Another "Rebel" 13year old is heard
>from. Isn't puberty soon over
>for you guys??????
>(No offense J-C RG-Dude and a
>couple of other RESPONSIBLE members
>of the community)
>
>You miss the point sir! You
>can do any damn thing
>you want on your PC
>with files on your PC.
>The problem that I and
>99% of the developers have
>begins when they upload them...
>And They will, Slugs like
>that always do... Just
>to prove they have a
>small PP or something! All
>this anti-social behavior usually stops
>at about the time some
>young lady bestows her favors
>on these guys.... I can't
>wait till this one gets
>there too!
>
>BTW, How come all these posts
>supporting this "utility" are from
>people wth less than 10
>posts and all have yahoo
>or hotmail addresses and purport
>to be lurkers who have
>never posted before.... I smell
>a rat! Might be the
>same TROLL stirring the pot!
HEY!! Bozo The Clown!! I'm no TROLL.First off I'm not a teenager, I'm 30. Second off, I'm married with two children. Third off, Who the hell do you think you are telling me what I can and can't do.Your sort just makes my blood boil. this is way out of order. Shapeshifter, I hope you're reading this because I'm now even more determined to have that Util of yours just to prove the point that we won't be censored by these obviously aging old farts who want to tell us what to do. Plese send it to
jamesrailroadgrant@yahoo.co.ukAnd as for you Chuck BOZO THE CLOWN Schneider. Go boil your head fool.James Grant. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
FozzyBear (726 posts)
Mar-02-02, 01:08 PM (EST) 53. "RE: Ban S to 3ds"
>Shapeshifter, I hope you're reading this
>because I'm now even more
>determined to have that Util
>of yours just to prove
>the point that we won't
>be censored by these obviously
>aging old farts who want
>to tell us what to
>do. Plese send it to
>
>jamesrailroadgrant@yahoo.co.uk
Yet another irresponsible moron that wants to destroy our community before it's had chance to reach its full pottential!.You just have no idea what you're doing here do you. Perhaps if you weren't so damned lazy you could build your own models!Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hinchinbrooke (10 posts)
Mar-02-02, 09:22 AM (EST) 48. "RE: Ban S to 3ds" I don't pretend to understand the means and methods of encryption, but, I've also had to uncompress S files in order to tweak things for some models to work properly (usually a matter of improper transparency with my old card). In addition, I've repainted some locos for my own amusement. If things become impenetrable, I'm sure my interest in the simulator will decline. It's nice to have some control over how a model appears on one's own private layout.Thanks! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
FozzyBear (726 posts)
Mar-02-02, 09:17 AM (EST) 47. "RE: Ban S to 3ds" LAST EDITED ON Mar-02-02 AT 09:22 AM (EST)>To all concerned, I have been
>following this thread almost daily,
>and I have one question.
> If you implement a
>lock on your *.s source
>file, will it prohibit users
>who download your creations from
>changing the "skin"? When
>you release a model to
>the general public, it's mostly
>in the road of "your"
>choice. Is my desire
>to change the livery going
>to be denied? Nope not at all!! access to reskin a locomotive is something that all designers on this forum encourage! provided that proper credit is given and permission obtained for any release. You do not in any way need access to the .s file or the source for it to reskin a locomotive.There are no plans as far as I am aware to encrypt ace files. Certainly not by me.Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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Kupa (33 posts)
Mar-02-02, 01:10 PM (EST) 54. "RE: Ban S to 3ds" The real question is not "Why shouldn't we release the .3ds files?"
Its "Why should we?"
Just mine point of view.King KupaP.S.
A word for Shapeshifter: Up yours!!!!
Thank You. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
cohearn (21 posts)
Mar-02-02, 02:28 PM (EST) 56. "RE: Ban S to 3ds" The real issue here is very simple in plain english. A developer owns his work whether he makes it available for free or sells it, whether it is good or bad. Because it is his property he is entitled to protect it. If an owner decides that locking his .s files is a way to do that, then he has that right. On the other hand, users have every right to download them or not, if a file is locked. That issue is also simple, just a "contains file access protection" notice in the description of the File Download entry. If you download anyway and don't like a model's features, then make your own models, or contact the designer directly for permission to modify his work and see what you can work out. That's all we are talking about. Locks will only be made to files when designers choose to do so. All other files from Kuju/MS, and probably 99.9% of contributed files will continue to be open. We are are not telling you what you can or cannot do with your computer. You will still be free to do whatever you want, except it may not be as easy. That's a small price for encouraging good developers to continue distributing their original works for free use.Regards,charles Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dyvach (77 posts)
Mar-02-02, 02:00 PM (EST) 55. "RE: Ban S to 3ds" >This thread got me interested - it took me 8 hours to write an import for S files into 3D Canvas pro.... Nice try to stir the pot; now, if it was Kuju's Series 2ooo on that screenshot, or something equally weird... i might actually believe you...Not that it's that hard to write an importer but well...nothing on the picture you posted actually supports your claim, does it? Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
shapeshifter (4 posts)
Mar-02-02, 05:30 PM (EST) 57. "RE: Ban S to 3ds" British 9F 2-10-0
the ESE didn't work, so some are safe till I fix the bug... Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dyvach (77 posts)
Mar-02-02, 06:08 PM (EST) 59. "RE: Ban S to 3ds" >British 9F 2-10-0 You missed the point...my fault though, i hadn't made myself clear. A screenshot of some model is just that -- a screenshot of a model, doesn't tell anything about where the model came from. For all i know, you could've created it yourself and had it sitting on your hd for gods know how long. That's why i wanted to see specific loco, one that everyone has, everyone is familiar with, but at the same time there's small chance anyone would have it modeled.Oh well; seeing people reactions, i better go to file archive and download the nice stuff while it's still there... been putting it off for too long, apparently. :/ Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
chrisell (237 posts)
Mar-02-02, 05:37 PM (EST) 58. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" I've joined this thread a little late, and it's unclear whether the .s -> .3ds utility exists yet. Can anyone answer that straight?To add my 2cents worth, I've been tied up in legal wranglings of this nature before. If such a utility comes on to the scene, that's the last you'll see of my free models. Plain and simple. I'm not willing to spend the time and money involved to get lawyers to prove my ownership and copyright again.Despite having the original 3ds files and being able to prove it last time around, it cost me the thick end of $1900 to win the case. The chap who pirated my models lost an awful lot more money than that when I was awarded the damages and various other monetary reimbursements.All it takes is one or two bad apples to ruin it for everyone. Those of us who give our models out freely do so because we want other people to enjoy our work. But that does not mean we're wantonly throwing away our rights to the work - we're just not charging for it. We still own the copyright.
Chris Longhurst. Read the mini FAQ at: http://www.christrains.com/
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BlakeTyner (116 posts)
Mar-02-02, 07:15 PM (EST) 60. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" Yes, the utility has been made. I know of at least 2 versions, neither of which released because the parties involved don't want to put it out there. Are there others? Probably, this thread alone will create more than a few simply because people read it and think...hmmm...that's something I could do to either make some people happy, piss some people off...or both. This thread kinda makes me think about the old telephone hackers from back in the day. They came up with some kind of contraption that would play the exact tones of a phone dialing....basically they could go to pay phones and "fool" the line. Dunno why I recall that, but I do.I can see both sides of this argument. As a personal opinion, I'd kinda like to see the shitstorm. However, I haven't contributed any of my models to the forum (mainly because they suck) so I respect the guys who put so much time and effort into producing and releasing things. They don't have to do it, but they do for our enjoyment. On the other hand, parts of this post piss me off because people on both sides of the issue have taken it to a degree way past where it should have gone. I think now more than ever is when you designers should make plans for when the utility hits it big. It's reached inevitibility...if that means "taking your toys and going home" so to speak, then I guess we'll just have to throw up a deuce and holler at y'all later. To some, thanks. To others, no thanks. To all, peace.
Blake Harris
Vice Dean, Limbaugh Institute for Advanced Conservative Studies Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
nw_fan (269 posts)
Mar-02-02, 09:29 PM (EST) 61. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" >Despite having the original 3ds files
>and being able to prove
>it last time around, it
>cost me the thick end
>of $1900 to win the
>case. The chap who pirated
>my models lost an awful
>lot more money than that
>when I was awarded the
>damages and various other monetary
>reimbursements.
>
>
>Chris Longhurst. Read the mini FAQ
>at: http://www.christrains.com/ But Chris,
You are the perfect example of why it is foolish to steal a model. You hired an attorney and the person who did pirate your model was penalized monetarily. So you of all people should understand that there are laws in place to keep the above from happening, and when it does, provide the ability to rectify the situation. And, I suspect the original author of this thread would be happy to do the same if it happened to him. And rightly so. I understand it's a pain in the a**, but if you are concerned about the work you've done, and the time you've invested, it's got to be done. I'm sure you'd rather not have had to go thru what you did, but hopefully you taught someone a lesson.Mike
Norfolk & Western
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nw_fan (269 posts)
Mar-02-02, 09:32 PM (EST) 62. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" BTW, isn't this thread about over? I think we've said about all there is to say about it. Everyone here understands that if someone rips-off Fozzy's or anyone else's model, someone here will notice and we will all know about it and the person who pirates will start more trouble than they need.Now, lets get back to the fun stuff. Building! Running Trains! Texturing! Arguing on the Forums!Mike
Norfolk & Western
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edwardk (50 posts)
Mar-03-02, 03:35 AM (EST) 63. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" LAST EDITED ON Mar-03-02 AT 03:48 AM (EST)If this keeps up, we won't have anything new to download. I understand the developer's right to protect his work. The question is how to do this? One method is to encrypt the shape file, but can this be done? The game engine has to be able to read the file. Another method which I think may possible is for the model developer to add his own special mark to the shape file. This mark would not be visible on the locomotive, but could easily be picked out by the original developer from the shape file if their work was copied? The person pirating the model would really have no way of knowing what to change to remove this marker. The second method won't prevent a model from being copied, but at least the developer will know when his model is being copied.The way I see it is that the situation is basically split down the middle right now. You have on one side, those who do not wish to respect people's work and the other side, those who do. There is no easy solution at this moment and the solution to stop developing will basically hurt the community. Edward K. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
chrisell (237 posts)
Mar-03-02, 04:44 PM (EST) 64. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" Edwardk - you'll be amused to know that all my models already have a hidden 'secret' buried in the geometry of the trains themselves. Only the most persistant and tools-savvy pirate would find it (if they were looking). If not, it's a relatively simple task to prove if the geometry was originally mine or not
Chris Longhurst. Read the mini FAQ at: http://www.christrains.com/
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Ranulf (96 posts)
Mar-03-02, 08:53 PM (EST) 67. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" Well when the idiots come out they come out in droves and they seem very proud of it.It seems to me that the moment people think there not allowed to do something they think there being oppressed, for crying out loud this is not censorship it is copy protection.Yes I’m sure a .s hacker will come and yes I’m sure models will pile up maybe even better then the first one, but this is not the point… …get you head out of your asses all Fozzy is saying is he doesn't want someone taking his stuff and screwing with it, if any of you built models you would understand the amount of time that it takes and the feeling of someone ripping it off is just... how did some one put it. "Taking a wiz on a Picasso” isn’t it enough that they let you draw all over their work now you want the rest like modeller doesn’t even mean anything.You want any changes done ASK!!! It’s that simple.I had twelve Loco about to get some textures some testing but I just can’t be bothered anymore I read this and all I see are gannets waiting to get models and completely rebuild them what am I wasting my time for, I’m giving them to a couple of modellers but the rest I’m trashing because I just give up I’m sick of this “I want it all and I want it now or I’m going to throw a paddy” that is happing in the world and I don’t need it in my pastime to so I’m giving notice.You may see a couple of my engine at some point from some other modellers at their convenience other than this… I’m gone
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nw_fan (269 posts)
Mar-03-02, 08:59 PM (EST) 68. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" I don't think I saw anyone here say "I want to steal other people's models" or imply that, Ranulf. I want to make it clear that I am of the opinion that if a modeler wants his model to be protected, that is how it should be. What I fail to understand is why we get so uptight regarding models, when there seems to be very little issue on the Route or Texture end of things, and those are much easier to use. Mike
Norfolk & Western
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comtrain (143 posts)
Mar-04-02, 03:17 PM (EST) 69. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" LAST EDITED ON Mar-04-02 AT 03:18 PM (EST)>sick of this “I want
>it all and I want
>it now or I’m going
>to throw a paddy” that
>is happing in the world
>and I don’t need it
>in my pastime to so
>I’m giving notice.
>
>You may see a couple of
>my engine at some point
>from some other modellers at
>their convenience other than this…
> I’m gone See Ya!
ok by my calculations thats three this month, and more to go...ah well, I guess the little boy that put his finger in the dike was a hero, unless they found out later, he had used his Fathers auger to open up the hole!
I sure don't think this thread, and the others like it have been very helpfull to this community..this old can of worms was better left unopened....
comtrain
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chucksc (1139 posts)
Mar-04-02, 04:46 PM (EST) 70. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" BTW being of part irish ancestry myself I resent the racial slurr of "throwing a paddy"... Jerk!------Chuck Schneider---------
-----"Power for You"------- Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
roycru (91 posts)
Mar-05-02, 06:30 AM (EST) 71. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" I opened this can of worms and to be honest it has been very enlighting.I can fool with routes or paints all I like but look out if I want to regauge a narrow gauge loco so it will properly fit XTracks.
Sure this tread has brought out jerks but it has also been helped to understand differing view points on the issue.
Being more of a route builder I would find such a tool useful at getting to proper rolling stock for my own use. Sure they are someone elses design but they were posted for use. (but not mis-use).While I personally would find the tool useful this dicussion has revealed that it could do more harm than good. Had the tool existed in MSTS we would not be having this dicussion. Same thing if the tool was a commonly available add on. The tool exist and the dicussion is should it be commonly available. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
FozzyBear (726 posts)
Mar-05-02, 07:11 AM (EST) 72. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" >I can fool with routes or
>paints all I like but
>look out if I want
>to regauge a narrow gauge
>loco so it will properly
>fit XTracks.
>Sure this tread has brought out
>jerks but it has also
>been helped to understand differing
>view points on the issue. That's not true at all! What any individual user does with it on their own computer is entirely up to them. Nobody will complain if you modify something solely for your own use. BUT if you distribute that modified item without consent from the copyright owner then you have broken the law and can be sued for it. Regardless of whether you made money from it or not! The above is the opinion obtained from our Copyright Lawyers. The entire problem lies not with the honest users who make up the majority of this forum, but with the few sad individuals who would do that. I agree completely with you that this penalises the rest of the honest users. But that, unfortunate as it may be is the way society works. It's part of what actually stops things from falling into anarchy! and while those few sad losers who want to steal exist, the rest suffer from their behavior, done in the name of freedom, when the real truth is they don't give a damn about the freedom of the honest majority.Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy Bear)
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buffy500 (28 posts)
Mar-05-02, 08:00 AM (EST) 73. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-02 AT 08:01 AM (EST)I am I the only person who is getting tired of listening to tirades of abuse from Fozzy ?
I have no idea how good his work is, as I have no interest in his area of work, nothing personal but each to his own etc.. But I do understand that is it is pretty impressive stuff.
But I've read many threads in which he comes across as some form of GOD, except its a GOD with a real bad attitude !
It would appear that everyone is entitled to HIS opinion, and as soon as anyone dares to comment on what he said or possibly indicate that his view is wrong it pretty much decends into name calling or making some point about the poster being a troll.Example:>I personally Like TSM and I
>Think your comments are a
>little harsh. It was one comment not comments about TSM! In fact it was a single word comment!Jeeze, is this not nit picking to the umpteeth order ?The following is directed at directly at you fozzy..I don't know how old you are fozzy, maybe you hang around with kids too much, because you seem to lower yourself to thier level at the first possible chance, but then take every possible chance to say that the views of kids are not worth inclusion in a debate.I don't think people care what you have to say ( best to rephrase to, I don't think people have an issue with your initial view on something ) but having looked about a fair bit, its clear that you feel very strongly that yours in the only opinion and anyone who dares to disagree is not worthy.And before you rant on about people not making models not knowing what they are talking about, I do model, so I know how long it takes me to do mine. I can imagine your take even longer if they are as good as people appear to say.
No I have not posted here much, but have been around since about June.
And regarding TSM, I used Canvas for several months before, and personally find TSM better to use for my style of modelling.
I would agree that the tutorials are lacking some information and that 3DC has great support, but TSM is a new release, and as such needs time to get on its feet. I imagine Canvas was not 'all that' at the 1st release either.I know you wont pay any attention to me as I'm sure by now I'm a troll or a goblin or what the fcuk, but you may want to consider toning it down just a bit and not jumping up and down on anyone who does not agree with you 100%.
Otherwise people might start to think you are just a talented prick.Regards Buffy.Feel free to rip the spelling on this note apart if thats how you want to reply, much easier than answering any of the rest of it ! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
roycru (91 posts)
Mar-05-02, 08:18 AM (EST) 74. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" I have no problem with with Julian. I don't always agree with him. Do I ever? Sometimes. If you post here you open your self up to attacks..I got a shot across the bow on my first post. He seems to stick mostly to the issue at hand with a few jabs put in for zing, but no "low blows". A few of us older guys can learn from the younger. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
FozzyBear (726 posts)
Mar-05-02, 08:55 AM (EST) 76. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" >I am I the only person
>who is getting tired of
>listening to tirades of abuse
>from Fozzy ? Exactly what abuse are you talking about. I respect your opinion as I do anyone else’s. You're welcome to express that opinion, that's the point of a forum.>It would appear that everyone is
>entitled to HIS opinion, and
>as soon as anyone dares
>to comment on what he
>said or possibly indicate that
>his view is wrong it
>pretty much decends into name
>calling or making some point
>about the poster being a
>troll. Sorry! I don't do that, clearly you're confusing me with someone else here! I suggest you read things that other people post! The only time I resort to obnoxious response is if someone attacks me personally. If someone resorts to personal insults then they can look out, because I will open up on a moron like that.>>I personally Like TSM and I
>>Think your comments are a
>>little harsh.
>
>It was one comment not comments
>about TSM! In fact it
>was a single word comment!
>
>Jeeze, is this not nit picking
>to the umpteeth order ? No it's not! because it wasn't the point of the post, You've just quoted that out of context and you'll also note. That I said "If you like TSM Fine I have no problem with that" "If you like it use it" "in the end it's all a matter of personal choice" QED.
>The following is directed at directly
>at you fozzy.. Ooohhh! good!! I love personal abuse from people!>you seem to lower
>yourself to thier level at
>the first possible chance, but
>then take every possible chance
>to say that the views
>of kids are not worth
>inclusion in a debate.HEY!! Lets get something straight here shall we! I PERSONALLY have never ever said that! If you can find a single post where I have then you're welcome to quote me! but if you do then I suggest you also include the link to that post!>having
>looked about a fair bit,
>its clear that you feel
>very strongly that yours in
>the only opinion and anyone
>who dares to disagree is
>not worthy.Not at all I respect everyone’s opinion. This is called a FORUM It's a place for public debate, debate involves a two way process, and if someone says something which can be evidentially proven to be wrong then I reserve the right to defend what I have said. If you don't want to read it then don't read it. Nobody forces you to.
>No I have not posted here
>much, but have been around
>since about June.
>And regarding TSM, I used Canvas
>for several months before, and
>personally find TSM better to
>use for my style of
>modelling. Fine as I said! I have no problem with that! how many more times do I have to say it. If you like TSM then use it. I personally think it has significant deficiencies and weaknesses, poor support, weak and faulty tutorials, a lot of avoidable bugs that even the update didn't completely cure. But what the hey! you're now telling me I'm not entitled to that opinion. Who is it here that's stating my "opinion not to be worthy"!>I know you wont pay any
>attention to me as I'm
>sure by now I'm a
>troll or a goblin or
>what the fcuk, Of course I pay attention to you and your opinion is perfectly valid as "your oppinion" the fact that you seem to have based it on misquotes and on things I've never said at all EVER doesn't seem to bother you though.>but you
>may want to consider toning
>it down just a bit
>and not jumping up and
>down on anyone who does
>not agree with you 100%. I don't... I only make opposing points when the person making a reply to me does so in the face of clear fact.>Otherwise people might start to think
>you are just a talented
>prick. Now who's resorting to personal insult! I don't recall ever insulting you. In fact what I do recall are two occasions on here when I helped you to solve a problem you were having with MSTS. Forgive me for doing that. Perhaps I shouldn’t bother in future.>Feel free to rip the spelling
>on this note apart if
>thats how you want to
>reply, much easier than answering
>any of the rest of
>it ! Two points there! 1) I did just answer it. and 2) I don't recall ever ripping anyones spelling to pieces, because my own is completely crap!If you want to take a pop at me fair enough! you're entitled to your opinion. But in future try basing your tirades on FACT.Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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buffy500 (28 posts)
Mar-05-02, 10:17 AM (EST) 78. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" Oh, I did not notice your response had been posted on here, I thought it was only sent off line. But never mind.I did not post examples for most of my own views of your behavior, so until I come across and can provide any examples I will retract my previous post.
Maybe its a case of mistaken identity.Although I still beleive the TSM is crap example is still valid. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
FozzyBear (726 posts)
Mar-05-02, 10:55 AM (EST) 79. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" >Oh, I did not notice your
>response had been posted on
>here, I thought it was
>only sent off line. But
>never mind. I do reserve a public right of reply when somebody attacks me publicly for something I didn't even do!
BTW You Got mail! LOL>I did not post examples for
>most of my own views
>of your behavior, so until
>I come across and can
>provide any examples I will
>retract my previous post.
>Maybe its a case of mistaken
>identity. Thank you and I think we both already settled this issue between us anyway. I'm not offended when somebody has a pop at me. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion. I am an arrogant mouthy git sometimes. But only when soeone either posts something which is factually untrue or which is clearly extremely dangerous to the interests of the majority as in the case of this S to 3DS converter.>Although I still beleive the TSM
>is crap example is still
>valid. Yeah! I agree, if I hadn't qualified it.... but you'll find later in the thread that I did and It was a personal opinion. I am entitled to a personal opinion, BTW I still think it's Crap but that is IMHO. Some others don't agree with that. Fair enough I respect their opinion. as I said, at the end of the day it's all a matter of personal choice.Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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roycru (91 posts)
Mar-05-02, 12:25 PM (EST) 82. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" but what would I use?
I would like an converter for personal use only.
Trying to figure that out opened the can of worms.
How can we make a tool available for use and still protect design for unauthorized use?
Actually there is no way, so the safest is not to make the converter commonly available.so it is true if I try even for my own use to convert there are objections. I rarely have time to work on my route much less write a program to make some minor changes. Oh since some can't comment without name calling.
(explitive deleted)
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FozzyBear (726 posts)
Mar-05-02, 01:20 PM (EST) 83. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-02 AT 01:38 PM (EST)
>so it is true if I
>try even for my own
>use to convert there are
>objections. I rarely have time
>to work on my route
>much less write a program
>to make some minor changes. No Roycru it's not true at all. What you do on your own personal computer is up to you. The problem only comes up when someone changes the original model and then re-uploads or distributes it without the consent and credit of the original designer.Other than that you can personally do as you wish with the model. You can customise it as much as you want as long as it's only on your machine. (visions of low rider Dash-9's with furry dashboards and jack up suspension LOL)Also as I said before the K-36 will come in two flavours... Narrow Gauge and Standard Gauge, so for use on X-Tracks it won't be a problem at all... There will also be a few other options too like different spark arrestors and snow plows! If you want anything else just ask! I'll do it if it's worthwhile.Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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roycru (91 posts)
Mar-06-02, 06:16 AM (EST) 84. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" but you miss the point ... tring to get the converter stirred up all the mess.As I look more into narrow gauge rolling stock the srinker looks to be a good idea. Narrow gauge XTrack ties are three meters but existing narrow gauge cars are a bit wider than this. Or around 10' width of a standard gauge car not 8' of a narrow. Could they be broad gauge? (as narrow gaugers refer to standard gauge) So I loaded a standard USA MSTS boxcar to my consist and sure enough the so called narrow gauge is in fact standard.I've contacted John Fowlis and he's considering regauging his "narrow" gauge cars.Is your "narrow gauge" loco narrow? Or do I need to squeeze it to fit it in the tunnels? Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
FozzyBear (726 posts)
Mar-06-02, 06:56 AM (EST) 85. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" LAST EDITED ON Mar-06-02 AT 07:01 AM (EST)>I've contacted John Fowlis and he's
>considering regauging his "narrow" gauge
>cars. LOL See what I mean! all you have to do is ask designers and they'll think about changing stuff to suit what you want to do with it.>Is your "narrow gauge" loco narrow?
>Or do I need to
>squeeze it to fit it
>in the tunnels? It's built exactly to 1:1 Ratio. So it's exactly the same size as a real K-36. If it doesn't fit in the tunnel it's because the tunnel is wrong not the loco.I havn't changed the width of the loco to make it standard gauge, all I had to do was move the wheels outwards between the frames, they're actually wide enough to accomodate a standard gauge wheel set between them. That was one of the advantages of building the K series locomotives for MSTS. as for coaches Grizzly's Durango and Silverton ones look very good, and I have got a drawing of a narrow gauge combine coach that I'll be building at some stage... again that will be built to fit on both gauges and be at exactly 1:1 size.I think we also ought to move this discussion into another thread, because it's now a pleasant chat, but way off the original topic. Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
roycru (91 posts)
Mar-06-02, 09:06 AM (EST) 86. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" see Real Narrow Gauge thread just opened.
number of responces in this thread must be some kind of record, for the week at least. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
decapod (7 posts)
Mar-05-02, 08:24 AM (EST) 75. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-02 AT 08:30 AM (EST)>I can fool with routes or
>paints all I like but
>look out if I want
>to regauge a narrow gauge
>loco so it will properly
>fit XTracks. roycruI have a "shape file manager" which other narrow gauge builders have used to scale up scenery items when they use the current tracks for NG locos, it can be used to shrink items too - you just enter the scale factor.
- I think a couple have got it to work for locos too(does this count as a shape file editor?)200 people have downloaded it from UKtrainsim.com (if you can catch the free download times) or you can get it from our site at www.highworth.freeuk.com under "bits'n'bobs"it used javascript and HTA technology so you need IE5 or higher to run it...Paul Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
FozzyBear (726 posts)
Mar-05-02, 09:02 AM (EST) 77. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" >I have a "shape file manager"
>which other narrow gauge builders
>have used to scale up
>scenery items when they use
>the current tracks for NG
>locos, it can be used
>to shrink items too -
>you just enter the scale
>factor.
>- I think a couple have
>got it to work for
>locos too
>
>(does this count as a shape
>file editor?) Well technically it does. But as I said there's no problem whatsoever with what somebody does on their own personal computer. The problem only lies with them re-uploading the altered file if they havn't obtained the consent of the original designer first.If they have on the other hand obtained that consent then there is no problem.Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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Dennis (116 posts)
Mar-05-02, 11:13 AM (EST) 80. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" Well I don't always like the 'tone' of Julian, but that just could be because this is only text. You can't hear his voice,
so you don't really know the expression behind it. But let's be honest, this forum would be so boring when Julian
wouldn't be around. He just defend his opinion, something we all should do It doesn't really matter what 3D program you use, all that count is the end result, what people actually will see in the
simulator. And don't forget about the textures, a model is nothing with nice clothes. Same as with people right?
Clothes make the human, and textures the model.Now for the .s to 3ds converter, guess we will have to live with it. If someone wants to make money with your models, they
will do it anyhow, and even not waste time to alter them with this tool. In FlightSim world they don't alter the model
at all. They just rip the whole model and add a new texture on it, so it could happen on here too.Just keep your eyes open and when you see a rip off, notice the official designer. Together we will be strong!
Dennis - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
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buffy500 (28 posts)
Mar-05-02, 11:24 AM (EST) 81. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" I have been in contact with fozzy off line, and yes, the online persona is not the real person. Something that is easy to forget.So I'm done on this subject.... Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
MKT1972 (7 posts)
Mar-06-02, 09:18 AM (EST) 87. "RE: Ban 3 to 3ds" After thouroughly reviewing this thread I will agree that this program has no business being here as it can lead to abuse, even though I would benefit from it by being able to actually see how things went together, but I will learn the hard way just as all the other makers of fine locos did. MKT1972
"Still lookin for more Katy stuff" Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
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