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hillnutt (2 posts)
Feb-21-02, 03:24 AM (EST) "conversion programs" Where can I find a program to convert .s & .sd files back to a format I can use to design Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
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Subject Author Message Date ID RE: conversion programs kwk100 Feb-21-02 1 RE: conversion programs kenm62 Feb-21-02 3 RE: conversion programs kwk100 Feb-21-02 4 RE: conversion programs roycru Feb-23-02 5 RE: conversion programs FozzyBear Feb-24-02 6 RE: conversion programs Stew Feb-24-02 7 RE: conversion programs roycru Feb-25-02 8 RE: conversion programs cohearn Feb-25-02 9 RE: conversion programs cohearn Feb-25-02 10 RE: conversion programs FozzyBear Feb-26-02 11 RE: conversion programs roycru Feb-26-02 12 RE: conversion programs FozzyBear Feb-26-02 13 RE: conversion programs RvA1 Feb-26-02 14 RE: conversion programs FozzyBear Feb-26-02 15 RE: conversion programs RvA1 Feb-26-02 16 RE: conversion programs roycru Feb-21-02 2 RE: conversion programs Overkill211 Feb-26-02 17

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kwk100 (200 posts)
Feb-21-02, 03:46 AM (EST) 1. "RE: conversion programs" LAST EDITED ON Feb-21-02 AT 03:48 AM (EST)Hi,For the *.sd files: Right click on them with your mouse. On the menu that appears select 'Open With'. In the window that appears scroll to the bottom of the list and select WordPAD, if you want check the box at the bottom (this makes all of your *.sd files open with Wordpad when you double click them). Click the OK button.As for the *.s file, there is a way to change this to an editable form. But nobody is telling us how to do so (and they will NOT tell no matter how much you beg and plead), this way you can prove that a particular model is yours by showing that you have the editable version of the *.s file.Hope this gets you going


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kenm62 (241 posts)
Feb-21-02, 10:39 AM (EST) 3. "RE: conversion programs" >As for the *.s file, there is a way to change
>this to an editable form. But nobody is telling
>us how to do so (and they will NOT tell no matter
>how much you beg and plead), this way you can prove
>that a particular model is yours by showing that
>you have the editable version of the *.s file.
>
>Hope this gets you going
>
>kwk100
Psssst... kwk100, can you keep a secret? Don't tell anyone else! Remember you are sworn to secrecy!!! Here is how to change the texture file references in the shape (.S) file. Chances are that the .S file is compressed. Try opening it with Wordpad. If it's not readable, then it is compressed. You'll need to use FFEDIT to uncompress the .S file. FFEDIT is a command line program like MakeAce, there are some user-friendly versions in the file section, I think. As always, make a copy of your .S file before attempting this.If you're comfortable with the DOS command line here is the syntax:ffeditc_unicode CMPRSS.S /u /o:UNCMPRS.SCMPRSS.S = your original, compressed .S file
UCMPRS.S = new, uncompressed .S fileThis works if you're in the directory with FFEDIT. It's located in its own folder under Train Simulator\UTILS.With the file uncompressed you can now edit it in Wordpad.
Search for the original texture files and change them.To re-compress:ffeditc_unicode UCMPRS.S /o:NEWCMPRS.SUCMPRS.S = uncompressed .S file
NEWCMPRS.S = new, compressed .S fileThese file names are examples you don't need to use them.
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kwk100 (200 posts)
Feb-21-02, 01:46 PM (EST) 4. "RE: conversion programs" I am sorry . Didn't realize that, that little bit of info was a secret.


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roycru (66 posts)
Feb-23-02, 09:02 PM (EST) 5. "RE: conversion programs" Let's say some one could read a .s file.
Let's also say that this file is in unicode.
Let's further say that it is a listing of points xyz.
How might one get a program such as 3DC or TSM to read these points?
I would think that all 3D formas would be a series of xyz points.
Might this be a way to get 3DS into non commercial TSM?
However,it does not appear that 3DC, 3DS or one of the TSM formats is unicode.
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FozzyBear (665 posts)
Feb-24-02, 06:24 AM (EST) 6. "RE: conversion programs" >Let's say some one could read
>a .s file.
>Let's also say that this file
>is in unicode.
>Let's further say that it is
>a listing of points xyz.
YES! and lets say we don't even think about going down this road!! Because if a utility appears anywhere that allows models to be draged out of the supplied .s format I for one will withdraw all my work from the community, simply because there's always some scumbag out there that will steal models modify them a little bit and claim that they are his own!!Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Stew (87 posts)
Feb-24-02, 05:30 PM (EST) 7. "RE: conversion programs" This subject keeps coming up and will never die as long as the .s files are in a text based format. It's most likely why Kuju didn't advertise that /u switch is able to uncompress an already compressed shape file, only saying that it prevents compression. Threatening to remove your work if such a utility appeared isn't going to deter anyone from creating it. Anyone who's concerned about their models being pirated may as well stop uploading now. It's too late for what's out there already. Anyone with unethical intentions will take them and use them no matter what we do. How do we know it hasn't already happened!Stew Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
roycru (66 posts)
Feb-25-02, 09:41 AM (EST) 8. "RE: conversion programs" From what I've seen from *.s it would be a very simple to prove engine or car had been stolen. There would be just too much data to change. On the other hand one for personal use could change a mogal to a ten wheeler and other changes to better suit a particular road. Or one could correct bugs. This would be similar to changing ace files for repaints. Of couse permission and credit would be necessary to redistribute.If I ever sell the route I'm working on I'll start from scratch on all object using tools with commercial restrictions. However I am using existing items as design aids just to get things going. For example I'm currently using narrow gauge XTracks but there is a commerical restriction. I will need to creat my own track using 3DC or other program w/o commerical restrictions. Looking at what and how others put eModels together has been a great learning aid. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
cohearn (16 posts)
Feb-25-02, 06:36 PM (EST) 9. "RE: conversion programs" Use Visual Basic. 3DCanvas Pro has a built-in API which allows a VBScript or Visual Basic PlugIn to Write or Read files. Javascript should also work. Other languages such a Delphi or C/C++/C# can be used too, but more effort is required. This information is described in the 3dCanvas Pro Help files for VBScript/VB PlugIns and examples of importing a file are given in the PlugIns directory. At the moment, I don't remember how to get Visual Basic to read unicode, but I am sure it can. If not just use word or wordpad to read the uncompressed .s file in unicode and then save it as a text file. Then import the required data from the text file, or build an intermediate data table file for direct import or in a format that can be loaded via 3DC's various built-in import methods. Just be certain to do this in your FFEDIT directory or work directory. Then just match up the information from the tables in the .s file with 3DC's data hierarchy, get the Bounding Box data from the .sd file, and get the .ace textures with tgatool2(converts it to targa with alpha channel). That's it you're in control. This is easier to say than do but it should work. I made a simple low poly shape with TSM, exported it to TrainSim, and then imported the shape into 3DC. I did it first by hand entry. Then I did it by making a file that 3DC already can import. The third effort was making a script to import it directly. Now I am working on a VB PlugIn. My next step is to do a more complex model.Regards,Charles Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
cohearn (16 posts)
Feb-25-02, 08:14 PM (EST) 10. "RE: conversion programs" Contrary to what some of the others on this forum would have you believe the format of the .s file in not secret. In fact it is completely open and documented somewhat better than a lot of things in Train Simulator are. Just go to the FFEDIT directory and look for a file named NEWSHAPE.BNF. That file contains Backus-Naur definitions for acceptable line entries in a .s file. For the non-computerists out there, this or something similar is how you define the syntax of a computer language or some special purpose data files. In the same directory is a file called WORLDFILE.BNF. In the same manner it defines the syntax of a .w file. This should be of interest to Route Builders. Now back to the .s file. As I mentioned in a previous message MSTS is really limited to the Microsoft DirectX format and therefore no matter what form data goes in to it, it ultimately gets rendered in DirectX. There is a book called DirectX 3D Graphics Programming which explains this in language understandable by most. So at this time only the data elements necessary for DirectX are important when it comes to converting a .s file to a .x file or to read into a 3DC hierarchy. The number of entries in a decompressed .s text file such as an engine or track switch section is daunting, but mostly repetative, once inspection of the .BNF file is done. If someone is interested in discussing this further, please e-mail at cohearn@cox.net. I agree with another message here that too many people are reinventing the wheel or wasting time doing what other hav already done.Regards,charles
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FozzyBear (665 posts)
Feb-26-02, 05:46 AM (EST) 11. "RE: conversion programs" LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-02 AT 06:07 AM (EST)
You are proposing a tool that you think will give people freedoms! But I don't think you've even considered the consequences of that.Just because something CAN be done doesn't mean that it should be! Otherwise you're getting into the realm of Human Cloning it can be done but ethics say it shouldn't be! Or We CAN drop a nuclear bomb on half the planet does that mean it SHOULD be done?? Or we can go out and steal a car and run 20 people over if we were inclined to, does that mean it should be done?? OR.. And here’s your kicker!!! WE CAN Go steal an airliner and fly it into a building full of innocent people! DOES THAT MEAN IT SHOULD BE DONE!!
Freedoms have a price... what you propose is to give people freedoms. All well and good, but before you give people freedoms you have to know what the consequences of those freedoms are.... This is not big corporations or industries you are proposing to attack with this piece of software. It's individual lone model makers. As for the Model Makers on here who said they don't mind people having their original 3DS models! That's Great!! No problem with that at all. No problem with it because that is their choice to make, Your tool takes the opportunity to make that choice away from them! THEY then get NO CHOICE, they lose their freedom.ANY, designer that wants you to have their original 3ds of canvas or max file will freely give it to you. Or will freely include it in the download for the locomotive!! Thus making your proposed tool obsolete!! If they don't want to give you the source file, then that is their choice!! Your proposed tool takes that choice away from them. If you do release this tool, then many FREE models will disappear. Many of them will change from being FREE to being Payware so that designers can afford the leagal bills necessary to protect their intellectual rights!!If a designer wants you to have thier source files they will give them to you. Therefore, the only purpose this tool has IS PIRACY. Do you have any ethics??Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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roycru (66 posts)
Feb-26-02, 08:47 AM (EST) 12. "RE: conversion programs" You write almost as if freedom is a bad thing.Freedom must be used responsiblely. The cost of freedom is in the obtaining not in the use. Enemies of freedom abuse it to attack it. There are consiquence (cost if you like) to the abuse of freedom. That is what we must protect againtst not the freedom its self.Freedom is not a license to steal. Taking someone else's design is stealing period. From what I've seen of a .s file much more effort would be required in covering up the a design was stolen than recreating it. To be honest, I don't believe there is a great theat of mass stealing of design for redistribution.I agree the best option be if designers (who did not mind changes) post 3ds source design. There are two ways to look at a design top down or bottom up. The Offical Guide to MSTS lookes at route designing from the top down. Michael Vone's Route Building Guide looks at route designing from the bottom up. Examing both gives us a clearer understanding. It is interesting to learn how something is put together. Examing 3ds files is enlighting to this understanding.It's valid to question if converting s to 3ds is good or bad.I believe there is LOTS of undeveloped potential for MSTS. The real question is how can we develop this potential. Having proper design tools is an important key.I would encourge designers to clearly state use restrictions and that users honor these. For example several tools are restricted to non-commerical use so if I ever want to sell my route I have to look for other tools.
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FozzyBear (665 posts)
Feb-26-02, 11:39 AM (EST) 13. "RE: conversion programs" LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-02 AT 11:46 AM (EST)>You write almost as if freedom
>is a bad thing. Not at all! But you suggest a tool which takes away the designers right to choose, if he wants his design to be used. Taking away the freedom of designers!>I would encourge designers to clearly
>state use restrictions and that
>users honor these. For
>example several tools are restricted
>to non-commerical use so if
>I ever want to sell
>my route I have to
>look for other tools. Yeah! and if the tools are there people will use them to steal. As for designers stating their use restrictions, there have already been numerous times when those statements have been ignored in relation to the Copyright of textures alone! So far I have had to request the removal of no less that five repaints from the library, where people hav entirely ignored my rights and done them without consent, and in most of those without even crediting my original work!! That situation can only be made worse by such a tool!As I made clear! if a designer wants you to have his original model and modify it, he will be happy to give it to you! which then makes any such tool obsolete!! If he doesn't want you to have the model and change it then you should respect that wish. NOT go looking for tools to do it!Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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RvA1 (328 posts)
Feb-26-02, 12:40 PM (EST) 14. "RE: conversion programs" LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-02 AT 12:42 PM (EST)Hello All,Well I have to chime in here too. To make a tool that will convert the .s in 3ds is just a bad idea. This can only mean one thing… someone want's a model that they are either to lazy to build or don't have the talent/tools to do so. With the introduction of TSM there is no excuse for not having the tools, so what left..... lazy, and or no talent. I have made models for Flight Sim and for TS. I've released the source code for some, and some I have not. This is my choice; it's my work and my time. If you've never made a model then you have no idea how much time really goes into making one. I'm not talking "a few man hours" to build a model you looking at "many, many man hours" for any thing decent The loco I'm just about to release has well over 250 man hours in it. Hmmmm Would someone like to pay me for this? Let's see now, 250 hours time a decent rate of 40.00 an hour, 10,000.00 damn not too bad... nice down payment on a Porsche. But will I see that. I don't think so.Now freeware modelers don't ask anything for people to use there models, except a few little things that should not be a problem. i.e. if you repaint a model give them credit for building it. If the designer let the source code out, and you modify there base model give them credit for building it. But with a tool such as your suggesting you completely remove the designer from the process. Long hours spent making the model just went away in a few clicks of a mouse. And I have no say in what happens with this model. If I want to release the source code for a model this is my choice not anyone else’s. This "tool" is not a good idea. I for one would simply remove all the models I have released that did not include the source code and retire from making anything else for the community as I will not stand for my work being at risk. Period!Let the models hang onto there rights and to hell with the lazy one's. Let this idea pass as all bad things do.Just my two centsRoger
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FozzyBear (665 posts)
Feb-26-02, 02:08 PM (EST) 15. "RE: conversion programs" >I for
>one would simply remove all
>the models I have released
>that did not include the
>source code and retire from
>making anything else for the
>community as I will not
>stand for my work being
>at risk. Period! Thanks Roger,
At last another voice of sanity!! I second that, my work gets withdrawn as well if this utility is made at all available!Best Regards,
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RvA1 (328 posts)
Feb-26-02, 02:25 PM (EST) 16. "RE: conversion programs" LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-02 AT 02:29 PM (EST)Contrary to what some of the others on this forum would have you believe the format of the .s file in not secret. In fact it is completely open and documented somewhat better than a lot of things in Train Simulator are. Just go to the FFEDIT directory and look for a file named NEWSHAPE.BNF. That file contains Backus-Naur definitions for acceptable line entries in a .s file. For the non-computerists out there, this or something similar is how you define the syntax of a computer language or some special purpose data files. In the same directory is a file called WORLDFILE.BNF. In the same manner it defines the syntax of a .w file. This should be of interest to Route Builders. Now back to the .s file. As I mentioned in a previous message MSTS is really limited to the Microsoft DirectX format and therefore no matter what form data goes in to it, it ultimately gets rendered in DirectX. There is a book called DirectX 3D Graphics Programming which explains this in language understandable by most. So at this time only the data elements necessary for DirectX are important when it comes to converting a .s file to a .x file or to read into a 3DC hierarchy. The number of entries in a decompressed .s text file such as an engine or track switch section is daunting, but mostly repetative, once inspection of the .BNF file is done. If someone is interested in discussing this further, please e-mail at cohearn@cox.net. I agree with another message here that too many people are reinventing the wheel or wasting time doing what other hav already done.
Regards,charles
cohearn@cox.net

OK, Charles that is all good and fine, but let's look at it this way. All the code you have every written shall be released in it's source format. Simple do not argue just do it. After you have done that you get every other programmer to do the same. Once you have done that then you have my blessing to build your s to 3ds converter. But until you accomplish this you have no right to screw with "MY CODE" period. And the models that I build are MY CODE. Just as if I wrote a program in VB or Delphi or VC or any other complier, it's still my code.This is not a tool that is needed by any designer. NONE. The only people who want this are pirates. No one is going to build a model in Canvas or TSM and import it into Max. There is just no need. So I say again, this is just a bad idea so let it go!Roger
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roycru (66 posts)
Feb-21-02, 08:49 AM (EST) 2. "RE: conversion programs" You can edit textures as opposed to shapes
these are the ace files in MSTS
get tgatool2 from http:/fly.to/mwgfx/
convert ace to tga and edit with as simple as MSPaint
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Overkill211 (62 posts)
Feb-26-02, 09:21 PM (EST) 17. "RE: conversion programs" Actually, Julian has a good point, in a way. We've already witnessed some guy posting a picture of someone else's work mangled in a paint program, and claiming it as his own.
Understand this... he tried to steal a PICTURE of someone's work.
Now, hand this... person... your *.S to *.3DS converter. He'll change the shape of the windows and rerelease it with his name on it.
The potential has already been presented, and may even still be viewable on this forum.
I have begun learning how to model. My accomplishment to date in 3D Studio thus far is a single untextured axle for a diesel (with fully modelled flanges ). I am learning as I go, yet I am entirely willing to claw my way up to the status of modeller. I will not stand on the shoulders of geniuses to gain my knowledge.
Microsoft provided at least two of their *.3DS files for us to examine, so claiming the need to pick apart someone else's model to learn how it was built is like asking a jeweller to see what their wares look like in the sunlight unsupervised.
I can see, from a (physical) model railroader's view, that asking for superdetailing rights to people's models is only logical; but consider that 3d textured modelling is not even in the same league as applying something from Cal-Scale on an Athearn.
Consider from a modeller's viewpoint. They spent 4 months learning how to model, and released their first model - call it an RS-1 for this example. They lavish detail on it, striving to equal Mark Toland's S-4, with fully-modelled trucks and grab irons. They plan to release a RSD-1 military variant next, which will use the same body with a modified cab, underframe, and six-wheel trucks. Two months later, after recovering from an attack of real life, they log into the file library, and see an RSD-1. When they first view it in MSTS, they're amused. The cab and underframe suffer from texture stretching, and the trucks are flat as a board. The wheels are oversized and out-of-round. Then they notice the modelled grab irons. Why would this person model the handrails and not the trucks. Suspicions build, and the modeller decides to compare the unicode *.S files of their original model, and this new one. The hex editor comes back with a 70% file correlation, which would have been higher if not for the hacker changing the texture names (which is already going on, by the way). There stands their creation, maimed by a butcher who claims 100% originality.
As I said, I am beginning to learn how to model; but if the above example is what is in store for me, I won't even bother. Unscrupulous workers benefit from the hard work of the honest employee every single day; securing raises and promotions, while the man who pulls the weight of 5 remains at the bottom, forever trapped by his morals. Now someone wishes to introduce this way of life into a community intended for entertainment and leisure. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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