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jeffmorris (112 posts)
Jul-02-01, 01:58 PM (EST) "CONV3DS utility" I sent the following message to Okino Computer Graphics:I downloaded demo versions of PolyTran and NuGraf programs. I have AutoCAD 2000 and Microsoft Train Simulator programs but I don't have 3D Studio MAX. I have a very serious problem with the CONV3DS utility that came with MS Train Simulator. The CONV3DS utility that came with MSTS is not the same as the CONV3DS utility that came with DirectX SDK. The CONV3DS utility that came with MSTS is written by Kuju and it converts 3DS files into object files that can be loaded into MSTS. I think that CONV3DS utility accepts 3DS files created by 3D Studio MAX only. It won't accept 3DS files created by other CAD and 3D modeling programs because it won't accept 3DS files that have dummy nodes. I thought that your PolyTran and NuGraf programs would fix the problem but I get error messages or CONV3DS stops responding. I am afraid to spend $400 or $500 for PolyTran or NuGraf programs. How to use CONV3DS:

CONV3DS platform.s plat200.3ds

Thank you very much for helping me. Jeffrey.They sent me this message:Hello Jeffrey. On Mon, 2 Jul 2001 12:29:05 -0400, you wrote:>I downloaded demo versions of PolyTran and NuGraf programs. I have AutoCAD 2000 and Microsoft Train Simulator programs but I don't have 3D Studio MAX. I have a very serious problem with the CONV3DS utility that came with MS Train Simulator. The CONV3DS utility that came with MSTS is not the same as the CONV3DS utility that came with DirectX SDK. The CONV3DS utility that came with MSTS is written by Kuju and it converts 3DS files into object files that can be loaded into MSTS. I think that CONV3DS utility accepts 3DS files created by 3D Studio MAX only. It won't accept 3DS files created by other CAD and 3D modeling programs because it won't accept 3DS files that have dummy nodes. I thought that your PolyTran and NuGraf programs would fix the problem but I get error messages or CONV3DS stops responding. I am afraid to spend $400 or $500 for PolyTran or NuGraf programs. How to use CONV3DS:Dummy nodes are all a part of grouping and hierarchy for PolyTrans. Any time
objects have to be grouped or placed into hierarchies then DUMMY$$ nodes are
used. What this means is that the CONV3DS program has not implemented one of
the most important parts of the .3ds file format: the animation section. The
animation section is where all the dummy nodes and instancing occurs. The only solution in PolyTrans is to be disable hierarchy and animation
output. Regards,Robert Lansdale, Okino Computer Graphics.-----------------------------------------------------------
3397 American Drive, Unit # 1. Mississauga, Ontario. L4V 1T8.
Tel: 888-3D-OKINO, (905) 672-9328. lansd@okino.com.Okino's software products (http://www.okino.com)
- NuGraf Rendering System for Windows,
IEEE "Technical Excellence Award" & "Golden Pixie" recipient.
- PolyTrans, PolyTrans-for-Maya & PolyTrans-for-MAX,
High fidelity model/NURBS/animation translation software.
- NuGraf Developer's 3D Toolkit, advanced photo-real OEM SDK.Visit http://www.okino.com for demos, FAQs, complete online supported
file format documentation, online product registration, user supplied
imagery & renderings, user list & a growing number of WEB links.I disabled hierarachy and animation information when importing and exporting 3DS files but when I tried to run CONV3DS utility, I got "conv3ds caused an error in CONV3DS.EXE" message.I sent the following message to Kuju:I have Microsoft Train Simulator which you developed for Microsoft. I have VERY serious problem with the CONV3DS utility that you wrote. I have AutoCAD 2000 but I don't have 3D Studio MAX. I think that your CONV3DS utility accepts files created by 3D Studio MAX only. It won't accept 3DS files created by any other 3D CAD and 3D modeling programs because your CONV3DS utility doesn't support dummy nodes in 3DS files. I sent a message to Okino Computer Graphics that publishes PolyTran program complaining about the dummy link problem and they told me to disable hierarchy and animation information when importing and exporting 3DS files but when I try to run your CONV3DS utility, I get "Conv3ds caused an error in CONV3DS.EXE" message. Please update your CONV3DS utility. Thank you very much.I hope that Kuju will reply to my message. Jeffrey. Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
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Subject Author Message Date ID RE: CONV3DS utility jerseycentral Jul-02-01 1 RE: CONV3DS utility jeffmorris Jul-02-01 2 RE: CONV3DS utility Xacto Jul-02-01 3 RE: CONV3DS utility jeffmorris Jul-02-01 4 RE: CONV3DS utility Xacto Jul-02-01 5 RE: CONV3DS utility jeffmorris Jul-02-01 6 RE: CONV3DS utility MRRextreme Jul-02-01 7 RE: CONV3DS utility 525cj Jul-03-01 8 RE: CONV3DS utility jeffmorris Jul-03-01 9 RE: CONV3DS utility MRRextreme Jul-03-01 10 RE: CONV3DS utility jerseycentral Jul-03-01 11 RE: CONV3DS utility jeffmorris Jul-03-01 12 RE: CONV3DS utility Stu Jul-05-01 13 RE: CONV3DS utility MRRextreme Jul-05-01 14 RE: CONV3DS utility jerseycentral Jul-06-01 15 RE: CONV3DS utility Stu Jul-06-01 16 RE: CONV3DS utility Stu Jul-15-01 17 RE: CONV3DS utility Ranulf Jul-15-01 18 RE: CONV3DS utility Stu Jul-15-01 19 lumps of clay... cBurgess Jul-15-01 20 RE: lumps of clay... MRRextreme Jul-15-01 23 RE: lumps of clay... cBurgess Jul-15-01 25 RE: CONV3DS utility rince2001 Jul-15-01 21 RE: CONV3DS utility Stu Jul-15-01 22 RE: CONV3DS utility cBurgess Jul-15-01 24 RE: CONV3DS utility jeffmorris Jul-15-01 26 RE: CONV3DS utility MRRextreme Jul-15-01 27 RE: CONV3DS utility ctillier Jul-15-01 28 RE: CONV3DS utility Stu Jul-16-01 29 RE: CONV3DS utility Stu Jul-17-01 30

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jerseycentral (91 posts)
Jul-02-01, 04:16 PM (EST) 1. "RE: CONV3DS utility" interesting..one problem down...and one new one to face! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jeffmorris (112 posts)
Jul-02-01, 04:33 PM (EST) 2. "RE: CONV3DS utility" I don't know why CONV3DS gives me fatal error message when I try to convert 3DS files after saving them without the hierarchy and animation information using PolyTran program. Jeffrey. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Xacto (144 posts)
Jul-02-01, 04:42 PM (EST) 3. "RE: CONV3DS utility" Someone else pointed out that if you group objects in max, the conv3ds will fail. Using hierarchies avoids the problem because they do not require dummy nodes (at least not in max). The sim definitely requires the use of hierarchy and animation for locomotives and cars, but non animated scenery objects are single objects that require no hierarchy structure. I do recall reading somewhere that some programs assign a dummy object to everything for whatever reason, and this may be the problem.Turning off the hierarchy function may work for the single objects if it does eliminate the dummy node, but for anything with wheels, it will probably not work. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jeffmorris (112 posts)
Jul-02-01, 06:18 PM (EST) 4. "RE: CONV3DS utility" If I create a station platform from one 3D box and add one texture map to it, how many objects do I create? Should the platform be one object with six 3D faces and eight vertices? Jeffrey. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Xacto (144 posts)
Jul-02-01, 07:51 PM (EST) 5. "RE: CONV3DS utility" What you describe would be a single object. It really doesn't matter how many faces or vertices it has, as long as all the parts are attached to each other, it is considered a single object. The problem seems to be that many 3d programs create a dummy node that conv3ds.exe can't process.Xacto Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jeffmorris (112 posts)
Jul-02-01, 09:53 PM (EST) 6. "RE: CONV3DS utility" I don't know why the CONV3DS utility that comes with MSTS aborts when trying to convert 3DS files that have dummy nodes while the CONV3DS utility that comes with DirectX accepts 3DS files with dummy nodes - it ignores dummy nodes when converting 3DS files. You can add parameter switches to DirectX CONV3DS utility to tell it how to convert 3DS files. I searched the Internet for information on CONV3DS utility that comes with MSTS but there was no information about the utility. Jeffrey. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
MRRextreme (55 posts)
Jul-02-01, 11:43 PM (EST) 7. "RE: CONV3DS utility" I noted these very things approximately two weeks ago in the "dummy nodes" thread. I am glad you are now on board. I still believe that it is intentional. Another issue you will eventually encounter will be creating the loco.ace file if you get beyond the .3ds issue when creating a locomotive. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
525cj (49 posts)
Jul-03-01, 01:23 AM (EST) 8. "RE: CONV3DS utility" This may sound like a dumb question, but I take it the DirectX CONV3DS will not work for MSTS.REAL PLANES SPIN PROPS AND DRIP OIL
REAL TRAINS DRINK WATER AND BREATH STEAM CDP Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jeffmorris (112 posts)
Jul-03-01, 08:58 AM (EST) 9. "RE: CONV3DS utility" I got a reply from Kuju:Jeffrey

We have tested with a number of .3ds files created by
other programes - but not Audocad.

If you can you provide a sample .3ds file showing the problem
you describe we will look into it.

ThanksI sent them a 3DS file created by AutoCAD and a TGA file created by Paint Shop 6. About four hours later, I got a reply from them:Jeffrey

I have passed it onto the dev. team - their investigation
may take a while because many of them are still on
a well earned holiday after 2 years hard work on the
product!

JonathanI hope that they will fix the problem with the CONV3DS utility. Jeffrey. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
MRRextreme (55 posts)
Jul-03-01, 09:20 AM (EST) 10. "RE: CONV3DS utility" Since Kuju can not test out your file yet and you seem to have a dialogue established, maybe you could ask them what other 3D programs were "checked" out with conv3ds.exe. That question should not require analysis. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jerseycentral (91 posts)
Jul-03-01, 10:46 AM (EST) 11. "RE: CONV3DS utility" really...OTHER programs? would that be 3D Studio Max 1, 3D Studio Max 2, 3D Studio Max 3, and of course 3D Studio Max 4?? Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jeffmorris (112 posts)
Jul-03-01, 12:33 PM (EST) 12. "RE: CONV3DS utility" I sent them this message when I sent them 3DS and TGA files:Jonathan, Here is the platform01.3ds file created by AutoCAD 2000. Which 3D modeling program and 3D file conversion program are compatible with the CONV3DS utility because I don't have 3D Studio MAX and I don't have the money to buy it. Jeffrey. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Stu (11 posts)
Jul-05-01, 04:03 PM (EST) 13. "RE: CONV3DS utility" Hello all. I've been having problems also. I'm running the Merlin VR 3d modeler program. I can export the file as *.3ds, run the conv3ds and the error I get is "While reading level of detail 1 from 'name of file'.s max visible distance not found in file name". I too would also like to know which 3d programs they tested this on. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
MRRextreme (55 posts)
Jul-05-01, 05:11 PM (EST) 14. "RE: CONV3DS utility" The error you are receiving is because of incorrect syntax at the command line when running conv3ds. Compare your syntax to the tech docs. However, once you correct that syntax you will probably get the "dummy nodes error" anyway. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jerseycentral (91 posts)
Jul-06-01, 09:42 AM (EST) 15. "RE: CONV3DS utility" stu...as a test put 200 in after your filename but before the .3ds and then run it and tell us what you get.. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Stu (11 posts)
Jul-06-01, 03:47 PM (EST) 16. "RE: CONV3DS utility" Hello. I tried putting a number in there buts its giving me the node problem. I found this one converter where I can export as an asci file and open it up in word to try to change some of the numbers around but not back to 3ds. Still working on it.
Stu Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Stu (11 posts)
Jul-15-01, 07:21 AM (EST) 17. "RE: CONV3DS utility" Hello all. I downloaded the Amapi program yesterday and it came up with the dummy nodes also. I took the dash92000 file and imported it into it, then exported it and no go with conv3ds.exe. I find it very odd how we cannot get Kuju to comment on it and how Microsoft is washing their hands from it. If I were Microsoft, I think I would be pushing Kuju hard for answers to this problem. I know a lot of people are very upset with the conv3ds issue. I am. Stu. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Ranulf (9 posts)
Jul-15-01, 08:40 AM (EST) 18. "RE: CONV3DS utility" I got rid of the dummy node problem buy removing all groupings in the mesh and attaching all the object together as one main single object, it also fixed the to many mesh problem that does not seem to be affecting anyone else.well that was the way I fixed it I guess it could be cause other ways to. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Stu (11 posts)
Jul-15-01, 02:37 PM (EST) 19. "RE: CONV3DS utility" You got rid of the dummy node problem? Which program are you using? Stu. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
cBurgess (36 posts)
Jul-15-01, 03:26 PM (EST) 20. "lumps of clay..." LAST EDITED ON Jul-15-01 AT 03:34 PM (EST)Most tutorials for making complex 3d objects suggest making a number of simpler objects and then joining them together in a hierarchy, sort of like using several lumps of clay instead of making the whole thing from just one lump of clay. It is a matter of creating the easy way or the hard way.If you build complex 3d objects by joining simpler objects into a complex whole (using several lumps of clay), you must create/tear a hole in the main object, set vertices to mirror the vertix/edges of the joining object, then merge/splice/weld those vertices together into a single set of vertices.If you build complex 3d objects by starting with a simple overall shape and extrude the complex shapes from the single object (one lump of clay), you will totally avoid dummy node creation. You will also see that to extrude a new shape that you must add vertices at the points that the extrusion from the main shape will occur.Go and buy some playdough or regular modeling clay and perform two experiments:1) Build your 3d objects first by taking several lumps to create simpler objects, then stick them all together to build the complex whole. You might find that in order to make the separate objects stay together, you must insert some toothpicks in key places to hold it all together...think of these toothpicks as "dummy nodes" - which is what the Conv3d utility is choking on.2) Now build your 3d object from just one lump of clay. This is harder to do than #1. Once you have the overall basic shape, you will first notice that you must pinch the clay in order to extrude enough clay to create complex shapes from the basic shape, and that in every place you change the localized shape, you must pinch the clay to redirect its plasticity into a new direction...think of this pinching as inserting new vertices.I strongly suggest that you actually get some clay and play with it as described above. Why? You will gain invaluable insight into the 3d object creation process in a very intuitive manner...something that just reading about it cannot do. Even the pro's will be amazed if they do this. Using clay will teach you many important things concerning 3d modeling that words alone cannot.I have been following the 3ds problems expressed in this forum, and feel that it is not a problem of which app to use, but rather a matter of how you build the object. If you buildup an object from several simpler objects and join them together into a complex single object, some apps insert dummy nodes (toothpicks) in necessary places to hold it together. If you build a complex object by inserting vertices and extruding additional shapes from the single object, you will avoid creating the dummy nodes, and your object will not have any toothpicks for the Conv3d utility to choke on.Charles B. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
MRRextreme (55 posts)
Jul-15-01, 05:39 PM (EST) 23. "RE: lumps of clay..." Charles B. While I appreciate your philosophical descriptions of dummy nodes, you have yet to name a package other than 3DSMax that allows you have to execute your philosophy. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
cBurgess (36 posts)
Jul-15-01, 07:12 PM (EST) 25. "RE: lumps of clay..." I am not having any problems with 3D Studio Max R3 or Anim8or.I am also experimenting with:1) Pixel3D saves in dxf formats;2) 3D CAD from Comsi (a CD-ROM I picked up at the local Jr College bookstore for $9 that saves in generic 3d file formats that seem to convert so far);3)I am even experimenting with FSDS-Pro conversions to 3ds.Charles B. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rince2001 (11 posts)
Jul-15-01, 03:56 PM (EST) 21. "RE: CONV3DS utility" Do i have to use Play-Doh or will any other modelling software do? Because the clay from my local supermarket is constantly causing dummy node errors.Rince Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Stu (11 posts)
Jul-15-01, 04:20 PM (EST) 22. "RE: CONV3DS utility" Charles B., I understand what you are saying. Its like taking a balloon and shaping it into an object by using the one ballon. Ok, when you have different objects, piece them together, you get the dummy nodes problem. So why when you create 1 object (box) do you still get the dummy node problem? I am using 3 different 3d programs and you would think one of them would let me convert a box200.3ds to box200.s.Stu. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
cBurgess (36 posts)
Jul-15-01, 07:06 PM (EST) 24. "RE: CONV3DS utility" It is my understanding that some are even having problems using the Conv3d utility to convert the Dash9.3ds in the MSTS samples directory. This file should not have any problems since it came with MSTS as a sample of a 3ds file that will work. I have not have any problems in converting the sample file, but some have.I'm starting to really wonder if the first batch of CD's might have a defect. I bought my copy of MSTS from WalMart, and have had none of the problems such as system crashing, unexpected train decouplings, dummy nodes, etc., that have been expressed in this forum. Thus, here I am trying to figure out why I have been so lucky Charles B. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jeffmorris (112 posts)
Jul-15-01, 09:03 PM (EST) 26. "RE: CONV3DS utility" I'm not sure if different batches of CD-ROMs have different numbers on the inner and outer edges. I bought my copy from Staples on Sunday, June 10th after I found out that Best Buy and Staples stores have the program in their advertisements in the newspaper. Jeffrey. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
MRRextreme (55 posts)
Jul-15-01, 09:38 PM (EST) 27. "RE: CONV3DS utility" I have never heard anyone having a problem converting the supplied MSTS .3ds files, unless it has been a syntax error in the command line. I still do not understand why you hve not described the steps you used to make Anim8or create a convertible .3ds file for conv3ds. You discussions seems a bit cagey. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
ctillier (9 posts)
Jul-15-01, 10:49 PM (EST) 28. "RE: CONV3DS utility" Charles,Can you confirm that the sample file dash92000.3ds that shipped with your copy of MSTS can be imported into Anim8or, exported as 3ds, and NOT produce the dummy node error?Thank you,
Clem
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Stu (11 posts)
Jul-16-01, 05:51 AM (EST) 29. "RE: CONV3DS utility" Charles B., I would like to know also if you can import the dash92000 into Anim8or, then export it as .3ds and run the conv3ds. I get the dummy nodes issue. Stu
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Stu (11 posts)
Jul-17-01, 03:55 PM (EST) 30. "RE: CONV3DS utility" Hey guys, keep looking at the "Anim8or-freeware-3d" thread. I am in touch with the author of Anim8or and he's checking out the files dash92000.exe and the converter file. I'll post results of what he finds out in that thread. Later.Stu Austin
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