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Captain Bazza (241 posts)
Jan-11-02, 07:33 PM (EST) "Problems with adheason factors." Three of my recent modelling projects have been lightweight steam locomotives, of no more than 27 tons (approx) weight. I have found that the locos' motion/drivers lockup when the brakes are applied lightly (10%) and the loco skids for some distance before slowing and stopping.The line in the ENG file of my 23.31tonne steam loco
" Adheasion ( 0.15 0.3 2 0.5 ) "
has these parameters, which still cause lockups at relatively low brake application pressures. (Dry track).The basic ENG brake systems are the same as the Scotsman loco.
T
weaked variations of this ENG have been the basis for the three locos.Are there any other brake settings I can adjust to give better braking results? The loco is a shunter/switcher (steam) type and I want to have good brake control at low speeds.Has anyone got a steam loco handbrake to work?Thank you.
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Table of Contents

Subject Author Message Date ID RE: Problems with adheason factors. TOPDOG5184 Jan-11-02 1 RE: Problems with adheason factors. TAfan Jan-11-02 2 RE: Problems with adheason factors. black5 Jan-11-02 3 RE: Problems with adheason factors. plainsman Jan-12-02 5 RE: Problems with adheason factors. cakewalker Jan-11-02 4 RE: Problems with adheason factors. mikkox Jan-12-02 6 RE: Problems with adheason factors. plainsman Jan-12-02 7 RE: Problems with adheason factors. black5 Jan-12-02 8 RE: Problems with adheason factors. plainsman Jan-12-02 9 RE: Problems with adheason factors. black5 Jan-13-02 10 RE: Problems with adheason factors. Captain Bazza Jan-15-02 11 RE: Problems with adheason factors. plainsman Jan-15-02 12 RE: Problems with adheason factors. jbrown Jan-15-02 13 RE: Problems with adheason factors. ChckHbrt Jan-15-02 14 RE: Problems with adheason factors.... Captain Bazza Jan-16-02 15

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TOPDOG5184 (517 posts)
Jan-11-02, 07:46 PM (EST) 1. "RE: Problems with adheason factors." Heya Captain Bazza. Set the Maximum Application rate lower. your applying the brakes too hard. i.e. the brakes apply to hard when set to apply at a higher amount than is neccesary. If you want send me the ENG file and I'll tweak it for you. My e-mail is TOPDOG5184@pikeonline.net yes I know it's a long one. Craig Shortino Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
TAfan (195 posts)
Jan-11-02, 07:50 PM (EST) 2. "RE: Problems with adheason factors." >T
>weaked variations of this ENG have
>been the basis for the
>three locos. I'm not pretending to know anything about .eng file editing (especially braking systems!) but by "tweaked" do you mean reduced? If not, the brakes will be far too strong for a much smaller, lighter, less grippy locomotive, won't they? A bit like putting the brakes off an 18 wheeler onto a small runabout car. That would make the wheels lock pretty easily too Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
black5 (82 posts)
Jan-11-02, 08:22 PM (EST) 3. "RE: Problems with adheason factors." Just try putting 0.175 and 3.85 as the first two numbers in adheasion. They are the numbers that control the grip in wheelslip and normal conditions...diesels use 0.2 and 0.4 I think..worth a try for sure.!!!! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
plainsman (515 posts)
Jan-12-02, 02:00 AM (EST) 5. "RE: Problems with adheason factors." LAST EDITED ON Jan-12-02 AT 02:01 AM (EST)You mean 0.175 and 0.385. These values sound a little high for steam, 0.17 and 0.36 are about the limit for steam.
Not all diesels use the values you mention. First generation diesels like the FT and the GP7 would use 0.17 to 0.18 and 0.36. The AC6000 and the SD90Mac would use 0.36 and 0.64 to 0.65.
Bob
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cakewalker (15 posts)
Jan-11-02, 08:37 PM (EST) 4. "RE: Problems with adheason factors." Hi,try to adjust (to reduce) MaxBrakeForce (see .wag reference file).
C.W.
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mikkox (158 posts)
Jan-12-02, 11:58 AM (EST) 6. "RE: Problems with adheason factors." LAST EDITED ON Jan-12-02 AT 12:32 PM (EST)Have you set the NumWheels parameters correct? There are two, the one in the wagon section is the number of non-driving wheels, and the one in the engine section is the number of driving wheels.The number of wheels alone shouldn't affect the traction, but the both together do, because it defines how the weight of the locomotive is distributed on the driving and non-driving wheels.I'm not sure how MSTS models the braking, but I imagine only the driving wheels brake. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
plainsman (515 posts)
Jan-12-02, 01:33 PM (EST) 7. "RE: Problems with adheason factors." I am sorry but what you have just said is incorrect. The numwheels values are not the used to distribute weight. They are scalers (divisors) which emulate traction detection and wheelslip control. On steam, the engine section should almost always be 2 or 1 ( most commonly 2) except for mallets. The lower the number in either, the less wheelslip.
There are specific weight parameters to set.
Bob Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
black5 (82 posts)
Jan-12-02, 09:12 PM (EST) 8. "RE: Problems with adheason factors." I always use the real number of wheels and the physics program by Realmuto and I get what appears to be a realistic effect...I'm over 50yo so I've seen plenty of steam engines slipping when I was younger.!!!!
Georges from London Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
plainsman (515 posts)
Jan-12-02, 10:20 PM (EST) 9. "RE: Problems with adheason factors." I think you might have misunderstood my response. I am not trying to eliminate wheelslip by setting these parameters as I suggested. The adhesion values should be somewhat lower than diesels, even first generation models. The reason I set these this way is that on a steam engine, the wheels are not free to slip independantly, but slip or grip as a unit to each side (now you see the reason I excluded mallets). If you experiment with some 10-12 driver locomotives, you will start to see the failure of setting these to the actual number of drivers.
BTW I am in my 50s and have been a train nut since I was 3-4 years old. I have seen them slip as well. I fondly remember riding in the cab of a Berkshire while it switched branchline freight at age 4 (you could do that back then, a lot fewer attorneys).
Thanks,
Bob Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
black5 (82 posts)
Jan-13-02, 05:34 PM (EST) 10. "RE: Problems with adheason factors." Your answer is interesting and I will look again into this number of wheel thing.!!
Like you I was fortunate..my grandfather was an engine driver(engineer) for the London Midland Scottish in Yorkshire and I sometimes met him at the sheds (roundhouses!!) as a treat. Nice memories.. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Captain Bazza (241 posts)
Jan-15-02, 05:39 AM (EST) 11. "RE: Problems with adheason factors." Thank you for the responses. Back to the tweaking.Bob, I may be a Kiwi but I love the big Berks, too. I even managed to find one in "N" Gauge. Don't let the computer WIN! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
plainsman (515 posts)
Jan-15-02, 09:05 AM (EST) 12. "RE: Problems with adheason factors." I have a grandson who is a Kiwi. You guys can't be all bad! Pretty country!
Bob Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jbrown (5 posts)
Jan-15-02, 02:41 PM (EST) 13. "RE: Problems with adheason factors." I think the problem is not adheasion, the problem must be on the maximium brake force line. try reducing it to a value about 30 % of the weight of the locomotive Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
ChckHbrt (547 posts)
Jan-15-02, 03:38 PM (EST) 14. "RE: Problems with adheason factors." Hey BazI had the same problems converting steam .eng files for use in the snow plows both rotary and wedge while applying power and brakes. What I had to do was make the units heavier and reduce max brake force and play a little with adheasion. You'll have to tweak these to suit your model while doing several test drives.Chuck Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Captain Bazza (241 posts)
Jan-16-02, 05:01 AM (EST) 15. "RE: Problems with adheason factors. Thank you!! :-)" Thanks for the valuable 'tweaking' info. Housework has taken priority this week (yeah, even guys do it!) and the only adheasion factor I've dealt with so far is staying upright on a wet floor Don't let the computer WIN! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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