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Sleepwalker (15 posts)
Dec-28-01, 09:56 AM (EST) "What the **** was that " DudesHelp me out here, I have just picked up the Jan 2002 issue of Model Railroader (yes we get it late in the UK) and there is an advert for Model Railroad Planning 2002 on page 51 (the one with the "Model UP's Sherman Hill" on the cover)........ Can any one tell me what the heck that UP beauty is on the cover of the special issue please, oh and do tell me that there is some one out there who will make me one pretty please ;)...... Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
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Subject Author Message Date ID RE: What the **** was that SD40T_2 Dec-28-01 1 RE: What the **** was that ssw Dec-28-01 2 RE: What the **** was that ge44tonner Dec-28-01 3 RE: What the **** was that riograndedude Dec-28-01 4 RE: What the **** was that cjmaclean Dec-29-01 5 RE: What the **** was that mikkox Dec-29-01 6 RE: What the **** was that cjmaclean Dec-29-01 7 RE: What the **** was that ge44tonner Dec-29-01 8 RE: What the **** was that cjmaclean Dec-29-01 9 RE: What the **** was that JensChris Dec-29-01 10 RE: What the **** was that cjmaclean Dec-29-01 11 A few more suggstions cjmaclean Dec-29-01 13 RE: What the **** was that MJL Dec-29-01 12 RE: What the **** was that mikkox Dec-29-01 14 RE: What the **** was that cjmaclean Dec-29-01 15 RE: What the **** was that ge44tonner Dec-29-01 16 RE: What the was that TrirailF40PHL Dec-29-01 17 RE: What the was that Sleepwalker Dec-31-01 18 RE: What the was that 1802ta Dec-31-01 19

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SD40T_2 (169 posts)
Dec-28-01, 05:51 PM (EST) 1. "RE: What the **** was that " it looks like one of UP's Illfaited Gas Turbine Locomotives. I believe they were loud as hell. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
ssw (42 posts)
Dec-28-01, 06:01 PM (EST) 2. "RE: What the **** was that " sleepwalker,
do the words "jet engine" mean anything volume wise?? They were called big blow because they had a jet engine. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
ge44tonner (44 posts)
Dec-28-01, 09:44 PM (EST) 3. "RE: What the **** was that " LAST EDITED ON Dec-28-01 AT 10:24 PM (EST)Looks like one of the Union Pacific 61-class gas-turbine freight locomotives. An early one, before the fuel tender cars were added. Also known as 'Veranda' series, due to the side walkways. They consumed enormous amounts of fuel, even at idle, and were taken out of service as fuel costs escalated in the 1960's.
As another writer has noted, they were as noisy as jet aircraft. I remember visiting relatives in North Platte, location of a major UP yard and enginehouse. You could hear a turbine running, even at idle, from any location in town.
As far as I know, nobody has modeled a turbine for MSTS. I do recall having seen a post including a very unfinished screenshot of a larger 'Big Blow' turbine, but there was never any further mention of it. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
riograndedude (76 posts)
Dec-28-01, 10:55 PM (EST) 4. "RE: What the **** was that " It is said that they could not be parked under bridges, due to since the heat was so high that the heat would "decompose" the cement or any thing else left under it for a period of time. Whoa!Behold The POWER of Black and Gold: THE RIO GRANDE RAILROAD Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
cjmaclean (697 posts)
Dec-29-01, 03:33 AM (EST) 5. "RE: What the **** was that " Well, maybe these machines were noisy and fuel-guzzling sunzabitches, but if any of our talented 3D modelers is undecided what to tackle for his next project and reading this post, PLEASE MAKE US A BIG BLOW (no ambiguity intended ) !!!!
D.M."Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
mikkox (143 posts)
Dec-29-01, 05:07 AM (EST) 6. "RE: What the **** was that " You mean this? Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
cjmaclean (697 posts)
Dec-29-01, 05:54 AM (EST) 7. "RE: What the **** was that " Is that a screenshot from somewhere...??!?!? Please tell me this project has not died... *begs on his knees*Question is, what kind of sounds would be most appropriate for a Big Blow? Does anybody know what their gas turbines were based on? If they were derived from an aircraft engine, it might well be possible that there is a sound set for that engine available for Flight Simulator...D.M.
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ge44tonner (44 posts)
Dec-29-01, 11:48 AM (EST) 8. "RE: What the **** was that " LAST EDITED ON Dec-29-01 AT 11:56 AM (EST)The graphic appears to be a Photo of a HO scale model, perhaps one of the brass models imported by Overland a few years ago.
The power plants were indeed based on jet engines, I believe General Electric JT series, maybe a GE-JT635. They were coupled to a DC generator, and supplied traction motors on each axle. So, the wheel arangement was B+B-B+B. The fuel tenders were added after the locomotives were in service for a few years.
I should mention that the Union Pacific had several classes of Turbine locomotives. The one in the photo is from the number series 61-70, had 4500 horsepower, and were commonly called 'Verandas'. The ones called 'Big-Blows' were from the number series 1-35, had three units (a cab, a turbine, and a fuel tender), and were rated at 8500 horsepower. The Wheel arrangement was C-C on the control cab and C-C on the turbine. Later on the UP raised the horsepower to 10,000 by increasing the RPM rating of the jet engines. The wheel arrangement was modified with traction motors applied to the tender, so the wheel arrangement became C-C + C-C + C-C.
So, be careful if you ask for a 'Big Blow', it might not be the same thing you saw in the photo.
The unfinished screenshot I recalled showed one of the 'Big-blow' series, not one of the 'Verandas'. I suppose a MSTS model could use a sound file from a jet aircraft in MSFS. As I recall, the turbines were operated at constant RPM, with ateady-pitched roar even at idle. When under a load, the fuel feed was increased to maintain RPM, so the volume increased while the pitch stayed the same. The engines also generated an enormous exhaust plume under load, which blew straight upwards at high velocity. Pretty much identical to the exhaust of a jet aircraft. When watching trains along the UP main line, turbines could be spotted several miles away, both by the distinctive smoke plume and the noise.
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cjmaclean (697 posts)
Dec-29-01, 12:25 PM (EST) 9. "RE: What the **** was that " Thanks for the data. From what you told us in your post I'd concur in that the unfinished project discussed in the engine design forum some time back was one of the original three-part units. Did I understand you right that on the numbers 1-35, only the second unit actually had a turbine, not the cab unit?
P&W JT series...well, some time ago somebody (forgot his name) made a great sound package for JT8-equipped aircraft such as 727s and early 737s. I'm using this one for what first-generation 727s and 737s I have in FS 2002, and it is really ear-splitting if you tune the speakers to full volume. I think this package might be a good source to use for a UP turbine loco.Come on, is there nobody who'd be willing to do one of these monsters?!D.M.
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JensChris (29 posts)
Dec-29-01, 12:39 PM (EST) 10. "RE: What the **** was that " LAST EDITED ON Dec-29-01 AT 12:48 PM (EST)What kind of turbine should be made ??1."Big Blow" 8500 hp

2. 1st Generation 4500 hp

3. 2nd Generation "Veranda" 4500 hp
I'm planning to do one.And we folks in Germany get the model railroader very very late !!There's a problem with the 4-axled bogies, because MSTS can only animate 3 bogies and 6 wheels.
Then I have to make 1 bogie from 2 and 2 wheels are not animated.Jens-Chris
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cjmaclean (697 posts)
Dec-29-01, 01:16 PM (EST) 11. "RE: What the **** was that " LAST EDITED ON Dec-29-01 AT 01:27 PM (EST)OMG, Jens, if you made one of these, you'd be in the running for the title of TS Add-On Loco God!!! Which one, you ask? Hmmm, let me think about that. As far as I know, the creator of the obviously cancelled Big Blow project had run into problems because he had wanted to try and make a realistic setup for this locomotive-tender combination. I won't go into the deeper details, but suffice it to say this...if you want to make one of these Turbos for TS, you'll have to declare it as a "diesel" to the program. I know this is strictly not appropriate, but TS dos not have provisions for those more exotic means of propulsion at this time. However, while in TS a STEAM loco can have a tender to store its coal/oil and water supply, TS will probably not allow that for a "diesel" loco.Anyway, I don't think this would be so bad at all. You'd just have to make the locomotive unit(s) and a nonfunctional tender (i.e. one that does not actually store any supplies), which would be the easiest way. After all, who cares if in TS the supplies would be stored on the locomotive itself when in reality they didn't?As for the sounds...there might be a problem if you chose to make the Big Blow - the three-part 8,500 hp one. In order to make it work correctly, you'd of course have to set up the machine as two locomotives plus one dummy tender.
Now comes a kind of limitation on the side of Train Sim. You might already have encountered it yourself while playing, but I'll try and outline it anyway.
When you set up a consist (i.e. train) with, say, two or three GP-38s in front, you will notice that the engine sounds (RPM and volume) will change ONLY ON THE FIRST LOCO on your train, no matter how far you crank up the throttle. You can easily check that out when you switch to external view and cycle through your locomotives with the view controls. Listen closely, only the first locomotive (the one you are "sitting in") will rev up its engine.Now, as ge44tonner wrote, the three-part 8,500 hp Big Blows had the turbine only on the second engine unit, not the one with the cab. The cab unit did obviously only contain electric traction motors which were fed by the generator on the actual engine unit.
Well, to make it short, if you were to give the engine unit the turbine sounds, the engine noise would ALWAYS be at idle. No increase in volume, nothing.
Well, how to avoid this? You could of course give the turbine sounds to the cab unit (though it would be inappropriate) and no sounds at all to the engine unit, but somehow I feel that wouldn't do this mighty locomotive justice. Or you could do this: Give the cab unit the sounds from one of the default TS electric locomotives (they should be okay, assuming the cab unit did really contain only traction motors), and give the turbine sounds to the engine unit anyway - you'd have to accept, however, that these turbine sounds would not change at all when throttling the engine up or down. But by giving them sufficient "base volume" and pitch you could very well try and mask this flaw on Train Sim's side. Also the Big Blow version would have the advantage that you could model the two three-axle bogies per unit without having to make any compromises as far as rotating wheels and bogie animation are concerned.Well, all that I told you in case you were to decide on the Big Blow. From the point of view of the sounds, the "Veranda"-type machine would be much easier to create. Here the turbine sounds could realistically increase in volume (not pitch, as per ge44tonner's post, since the turbines ran at constant speed), and still you'd have a mightily impressive loco! But then there is the problem with the very limited number of animated wheels and bogies, which I'm sure would mar the appearance of such a model.From your E-unit project I can see that you sure have a gift for CAD modeling, but I'm afraid I'm in no position to tell how deep you actually are into ENG file design and all those nice things. You will have to decide for yourself how many hassles you might be willing to accept with the UP Turbo project. I'd suggest the following: Make the Big Blow first and accept the fact that it would have a not-quite-100% sound suite (I'm sure some of the ENG file and sound wizards here on this board and over at the Flight Sim sites will be glad to help you out) and rather have a flawless 3D model with properly animated wheels and bogies. Maybe some day the problem with the limited number of animated wheels and bogies will be fixed, but until then I'm sure we could all live with the above solution. And who knows, at this point the problem with engine sounds not changing on all but the first loco in a consist might be solved as well!I hope I could help you with my thoughts, and that you will indeed make us one of these awesome locomotives. Just imagine...cresting the summit on Marias Pass with 100-some cars behind you, sitting in the (virtual) cab of one of those big, noisy yellow monsters...
Best,
D.M.
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cjmaclean (697 posts)
Dec-29-01, 04:15 PM (EST) 13. "A few more suggstions" Well, I thought a bit more about your plans, and here is a short version of how I would try to set up the Big Blow:1) Make the cab unit and declare it as a diesel. However, since the Big Blow cab unit did apparently not have a turbine on board, have zthe ENG file refer to the sound folder of one of Train Sim's default electric locos. The horn would probably ned to be somewhat "beefier", though - but this can be fixed. I'm not a loco designer myself, but I do have made some tweaking on the machines on my HD, and learned a few tricks. The magic word is "aliasing"...it's not that hard to do, I promise you.2. Make the actual turbine engine unit (after all it is essentially not much different from the B unit for your EMD E type). Set it up as a diesel as well. Before I forget it, does anyone know the fuel capacity of the Big Blow's fuel tender? Anyway, if you get this value, set up both the cab unit and the turbine unit so that both have 50% of the total fuel load. Since cab unit and turbine unit were obviously unable to operate separately, this should be an acceptable solution.3. Now make the fuel tender. Nothing major here, to the program it'd be only a "wagon" with no further function. Yeah, It'd sure be better if TS would allow not only steam engines to have tenders, but I guess we'll have to live with that.4. Now check the flight sim sites for a decent sound pack of a Pratt & Whitney JT-series engine (JT8 maybe, as used on the Boeing 727 and early 737). I'm not an expert in copyright issues, but if I were you I would contact the creator of that sound package first and tell him what you're up to - that you're going to create a turbine-powered loco for TS, and ask him if you may use sounds from his package to obtain realistic engine sounds for this loco. If you have come that far by then already, send him a few screenshots...might make the decision easier for him.5. Since TS does not let engine sounds increase in any way for any but the first engine in a consist, and the turbine unit is going to be #2 anyway, take those jet engine files which you feel are best, and rename them to match the names of, say, the Dash-9's engine sounds. Make a copy of the Dash-9's sound folder to work on before fiddling around with the files, though!!! The other sounds besides the engine noise (e.g. brake air sounds) should still be very much okay for the Big Blow.6. Only a finishing touch, but still worth considering. Have the ENG and WAG files configured such that the cab unit, turbine unit and fuel tender are connected with each other with a "bar" coupler. You will find that on many of the newer 3rd party steam engines as well. I don't know if the real Big Blows were connected with solid bar couplers in real life, but let's just say it prevents you from accidentally uncoupling the cab unit from the turbine unit, or the fuel tender from the actual locomotive. Leave the "automatic" coupler on the cab unit's front end and the tender's aft end, of course. All that is defined through the ENG and cab files, as you may have seen already, so don't worry.
Phew, I hope I could be of help to you. If you still have questions, don't hesitate to ask them on this board - there are many folks, often loco designers themselves, who will gladly help you. I understand you have Chris Lee doing the ENG files for your E units - I'm sure he'd gladly help you out with a Big Blow project as well.
Best wishes,
D.M.
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MJL (155 posts)
Dec-29-01, 03:44 PM (EST) 12. "RE: What the **** was that " I'm sorta partial to this one..but not the 2nd Generation "Veranda" 4500 hp --- they just look a little goofyMatt
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mikkox (143 posts)
Dec-29-01, 04:27 PM (EST) 14. "RE: What the **** was that " >There's a problem with the 4-axled
>bogies, because MSTS can only
>animate 3 bogies and 6
>wheels.
>Then I have to make 1
>bogie from 2 and 2
>wheels are not animated. There are ways around it. You could have the locomotive consist of four units, first unit would be the two front bogies, the second unit would be the locomotive body, the third would be the two rear bogies and the fourth would be the fuel tender.If you look closely to the construction of the loco, you'll see that actually it has two bogies, and those bogies both have two bogies in them. Otherwise it couldn't turn properly at tight curves. The way I described would simulate this pretty accurately. I'm using that technique of multiple units to get realistic behavior on the SP Cab Forward. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
cjmaclean (697 posts)
Dec-29-01, 04:53 PM (EST) 15. "RE: What the **** was that " You're talking about the Veranda, right? Right, I hadn't thought of that "multipart" option in my suggestions. Jens, if you're up to it, I suggest you should start off with a Veranda after all. It would make things easier as far as sound is concerned, and you'd still get a correctly animated and detailed model. But of course I'll leave that choice to you.
Hope you don't mind voicing my suggestions here, but an UP Turbine is something I was longing for from the very first day I played Train Sim ...
D.M.
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ge44tonner (44 posts)
Dec-29-01, 06:45 PM (EST) 16. "RE: What the **** was that " LAST EDITED ON Dec-29-01 AT 06:51 PM (EST)There is actually a bit more to consider in dealing with the sounds for a three-unit 'Big Blow' Cab unit. The control cab is not an empty unit; it had a 850 horsepower diesel engine, for use in moving the locomotive around the engine terminal without having to power-up the main turbine. This diesel was usually left at idle when the turbine was running.
Many of the turbines I saw in service were accompanied by a single trailing diesel locomotive; very often a cabless GP7 or later a cabless GP30. This was apparently a backup to get the train into the next siding, in the event the main turbine failed.
I'm not sure of the fuel capacity on the 'Veranda' turbines, but I would guess something in the range of 4000 gallons in the turbine unit with maybe 12,000 gallons in the tender. The 'Big Blow' fuel tenders were larger, perhaps 18,000 gallons. One of the 51-class turbines was modified to operate with propane fuel, and instead of a fuel tender was accompanied by a tank car.
In terms of dealing with the limitation in MSTS on the number of axles, I wonder if anyone knows how the Auran DD40AX is set up. It has eight axles, the same as the B+B-B+B 'Veranda' turbines. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
TrirailF40PHL (167 posts)
Dec-29-01, 07:03 PM (EST) 17. "RE: What the was that " Here is an idea for the Big Blow's 2nd unit. Since in MSTS, the trailing locomotive is always at idle, and the Big Blow was always running, use the sound of the jet engine at full for idle, and then you'll have no problems.Kurt Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Sleepwalker (15 posts)
Dec-31-01, 06:20 AM (EST) 18. "RE: What the was that " Hey hey hey who started this damn thread don't I get a say in what I want ;)you guys know way too much ionformation about these trains.Any way I quite like the Veranda ones (think the photeo above was of 61.Is there any way that the files for a steam train could be reverse engineered to provide for the tender/engine but still show up as a diesel on the list but hey I'll not be too pushy as I can expect that these machines will take some time to resolve the issues thast you guy's seem to be putting forward (thanks for the infoo though). Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
1802ta (154 posts)
Dec-31-01, 10:51 AM (EST) 19. "RE: What the was that " Go with the Veranda first. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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