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"" I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupler dilema"

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jseiler (30 posts)
Dec-19-01, 10:00 PM (EST) "" I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupler dilema" I've been silently following the front coupler discussion with bated breath hoping that someone has finally found a solution to this annoyance without have to strip all the brakes off of our rolling stock.Personally I don't feel that disabling the brakes is good general railroad practice. Not having sat down yet to create any motive power from scratch, I have but one question. How does MSTS know one end of a loco from another? Where do you tell the SIM which end of a loco is front? After all some railroads ran their diesels long hood forward.You see where I'm going with this? Is it possible to tell MSTS both couplers are rear couplers? If not, since it seems that two locos back to back don't have this coupling problem can the design of the loco be altered to make the SIM think that a single GP38 for instance is a set of permanently coupled locos with the extra set of couplers buried in the middle of the body, in the gas tank for instance, where nobody will see them? Sure it will probably show up in the F9 window as two locos but I don't think that will be anywhere near as annoying as not being able to switch properly.Just a thought,
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Table of Contents

Subject Author Message Date ID RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupl... lnghairedwizard Dec-19-01 1 RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupl... jseiler Dec-19-01 2 RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupl... lnghairedwizard Dec-20-01 3 RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupl... jseiler Dec-20-01 4 RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupl... Overkill211 Dec-20-01 5 RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupl... TOPDOG5184 Dec-20-01 6 RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupl... jseiler Dec-20-01 9 RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupl... Stew Dec-20-01 7 RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupl... jseiler Dec-20-01 8 RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupl... MikeSimpson Dec-20-01 10 RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupl... Overkill211 Dec-20-01 12 RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupl... sixman Dec-21-01 16 RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupl... Overkill211 Dec-21-01 18 RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupl... rob20 Dec-20-01 11 RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupl... Stew Dec-21-01 13 RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupl... jseiler Dec-21-01 14 RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupl... gordonfan Dec-21-01 15 RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupl... TOPDOG5184 Dec-21-01 17 RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupl... Overkill211 Dec-21-01 19 RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupl... TOPDOG5184 Dec-22-01 20 RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupl... Overkill211 Dec-22-01 21 RE: " Meanwhile back in the LOCO sh... Captain Bazza Dec-23-01 22 My front coupler works! AC4400 Dec-24-01 23 RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupl... Mrscotti Dec-25-01 24

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lnghairedwizard (436 posts)
Dec-19-01, 10:26 PM (EST) 1. "RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupler dilema" Personally I think KUJU made this problem to annoy us. It seems to me (and Im no programmer) that it would take more programming to have MSTS treat the front and back coupler as separate devices. You would think that a coupler would be a coupler and it would make no damn difference which end of the loco is connected.....BUUUUTTTTTTT NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!(outdated reference to SNL here...LOL)Longhairedwizard Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jseiler (30 posts)
Dec-19-01, 11:07 PM (EST) 2. "RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupler dilema" My point exactly! A coupler is a coupler is a coupler, why should one operate differently from the other. Having said that, it is necessary to differentiate between the two couplers so the SIM knows which way round to display the rolling stock and for that matter the motive power.How does this coupler problem affect distributed power? I think I read a few posts about locos in the middle or the end seemingly not adding to the overall pulling power. Could that be because some cars connected somewhere in the consist have their brakes on permanently?One more thought strikes me. Is this problem only evident on North American knuckle couplers or does the same problem exist using European chain couplers?More food for thought,
Joerg Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
lnghairedwizard (436 posts)
Dec-20-01, 05:39 AM (EST) 3. "RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupler dilema" RE: it is necessary to differentiate between the two couplers so the SIM knows which way round to display the rolling stock and for that matter the motive power.Possibly, but even when your travelling "light" with 1 engine, the sim knows which way to face the engine despite not being coupled to anything.... even if you flip it in the consist editor the sim will know it and do the same when being played. Also, if you put only 1 car on a siding and then toggle the direction, the sim will orientate that car accordingly and not discriminate between couplers....i.e. both couplers will function fine as far as the freight car couplers go (and some freight cars are definetly different from one end to the next such as the bulldozer loaded flatcar), but yet it treats the two couplers on the engine differentlyCan you imagine if you backed your gp38 up to couple to the end of the flatcar with the bulldozer blade facing you and you coupled just fine but try backing to couple to the flatcar on the opposite end and you lost 90% of your power or you just "bounced" of it. I dont understand their logic (or more accurately....Lack of logic)Seems it would be more work, more complexity, and occupy more memory to have different files for each end/coupler.Longhairedwizard Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jseiler (30 posts)
Dec-20-01, 10:40 AM (EST) 4. "RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupler dilema" You are right my friend, the coupling routine doesn't have to make any differentiation of front or back coupler, it just handles coupling the same for all couplers. There does have to be a value though to keep track of orientation. If you look in the consist files there is indeed a "flip" value. Enough said though. This thread is not intended to be a programming thread or a KUJU / Microsoft bashing thread. I rather enjoy the SIM and just want to add some of my musings to see if I can't in some small way help figure this thing out. I still have the one unanswered question:When designing a locomotive from scratch how do you let the SIM know which end is normally forward? In other words if I am making a GP38 for a line that normally ran it's motive power long hood forward how do I set this in the SIM? Does it have something to do with the orientation in the CAD program?The SIM has to be told which end is which just like the real railroads mark one end of their locomotives "front" for those new engineers who don't know which end is which yet! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Overkill211 (48 posts)
Dec-20-01, 06:56 PM (EST) 5. "RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupler dilema" I don't think it's as much a problem with the couplers as with the physics and animation systems. Try coupling to a full reversed consist of about 3 cars. (i.e. use a wye, then couple) When you start the consist moving, go to an outside camera view and look at the wheels on the consist. When you're at slow speeds, you realize the wheels are turning backwards. When you go into turns, the trucks (bogies to those overseas) turn opposite to the tracks. (trucks go left when tracks go right) I think that to simplify physics calculations, KUJU defined them in relation to the defined "forward" direction ot the cars.
I'll try this visually... pretend that 1 represents "front" and 0 represents "back":
10 10 10 01 - Three reversed cars coupled to engine.
The engine is then started in a forward direction. It is applying 3000hp minus friction to the rails. The three cars then interpret they are being pulled forward, which is actually opposite their true direction. They are applying 3000hp minus friction to the rails in the wrong direction. Since there are more wheels (hence more friction) in the cars, the locomotive wins the fight, but just barely. Throw in a hill, and it's all over.
Now, mind you; this is all guesswork, but it seems to fit the visuals. If there were a way to tie in all the cars' friction calculations to the lead loco, everything would be fine. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
TOPDOG5184 (322 posts)
Dec-20-01, 07:41 PM (EST) 6. "RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupler dilema" On reply to the comment " removing the brakes does not seem like good railroad practice " or something like that. this is true as I keep saying that my design so far is still in BETA that means I haven't fully figured it out yet. I just said you can use it so for now you can couple with the front and not get stuck with only 2 cars. in reply to the comment "cars trucks move backwards " I have a slight fix for this. just turn the cars around in the activity editor. the red circle indicates the front correct? yes. now turn the cars around so the red circle will be in the rear of the train and viola. wheels turn the right way. I am still playing with the brakes so as to have them but not as hard as they used to be. in other words I'm "fiddling" with them so as to have them but not have them lock the train in place. keep checking the MSTS forum as I'll keep posting my new results and findings. I am still working on it people. why does everybody think I'm just going to leave us without brakes? everywhere I go in these forums I see people saying that its not a solution. no it isn't a full solution YET but I'm STILL working on it. Craig Shortino

Built a better coupler to make this "as real as it gets". ( though its still in beta ) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jseiler (30 posts)
Dec-20-01, 10:29 PM (EST) 9. "RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupler dilema" Hello Craig,Please don't be so quick to take offence at the thoughts of others. There was no intention to somehow downgrade your efforts. In fact I'm sure there are many who applaud your concerted effort in this regard, including myself. My comment about "removing brakes" was meant tongue in cheek as indicated by the emoticon. Comments are often quite different when read in the spirit in which they are intended. So far I haven't read anything meant to disparage your work, only to offer a different angle or perspective that may only help you in your efforts to succeed.So please don't be offended and keep up the good work, there are many who are counting on you.Please keep us informed.Joerg Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Stew (59 posts)
Dec-20-01, 09:02 PM (EST) 7. "RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupler dilema" >I still have
>the one unanswered question:
>
>When designing a locomotive from scratch
>how do you let the
>SIM know which end is
>normally forward? In other words
>if I am making a
>GP38 for a line that
>normally ran it's motive power
>long hood forward how do
>I set this in the
>SIM? Does it have something
>to do with the orientation
>in the CAD program?
>
>The SIM has to be told
>which end is which just
>like the real railroads mark
>one end of their locomotives
>"front" for those new engineers
>who don't know which end
>is which yet!
Hi Joerg, Working with TrainSim Modeler it's the orientation of the model in the CAD program that defines which end is A or B, left or right. I'm sure the other design applications do the same thing. In fact the orthographic views in the programs are normally identified by their direction.Stew Clark Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jseiler (30 posts)
Dec-20-01, 10:17 PM (EST) 8. "RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupler dilema" Thank you very much Stew. This finally answered my question. I have a copy of 3D Canvas but so far have limited my self to makeing a few odd signs and a country station. Maybe over the holidays I'll work on an old backwoods boxcab or some other weird contraption. Thanks again for answering my question.Joerg Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
MikeSimpson (5 posts)
Dec-20-01, 10:48 PM (EST) 10. "RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupler dilema" In 3D Canvas, the direction of the locomotive is the way the BLUE pencil points. Select the object in wireview and you will see the red/green/blue pencils showing the x,y,z axis. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Overkill211 (48 posts)
Dec-20-01, 11:09 PM (EST) 12. "RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupler dilema" In response to "turn the car around", the point was that EXISTING cars in an activity (like a yard setting) if pointed in a direction opposite that of the engine and loose, will exhibit this behavior when coupled to. I understand the consist editor as well as any mere mortal (non Microsoft-warlock) can be expected to. We're all trying to dig up the answer, I'm just identifying a potential cause. I noticed this behavior within a week of purchasing MSTS, but figured MS wouldn't be interested in anything "minor".<RANT>
To the guys at MS - you want something major... how about me having to sit through "you did not shut down windows properly" each and every time I use Train Sim. How about me having to juggle sound drivers when using Microsoft games in Microsoft Windows. Every other game on the planet works just fine with my default drivers... including DOS games. I'm not even handicapped by ME, I'm using 98. King of compatibility strikes again.
<END RANT>Sorry, fellow Train Simmers. I just had to get that out. I do think Topdog is heading in the right direction. Just do us a favor, and tell us that we're treading on ground you've already covered, rather than belittling us. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
sixman (53 posts)
Dec-21-01, 04:19 PM (EST) 16. "RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupler dilema" I'm runnibg WIN98 and do not have the problem with 'windows did not shut down properly' nor a problem with the sound card. Might not be WIN98 related. Have you changed video or sound cards since MSTS was installed? Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Overkill211 (48 posts)
Dec-21-01, 10:47 PM (EST) 18. "RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupler dilema" Actually, the sound card hasn't been changed. It's a Hercules Game Theater XP (the old 5.1, not the 6.1 version). It has 3 possible interface drivers installed at all times:
*Hercules Game Theater XP - This one uses all the hardware features, but locks up Train Sim whenever I change views, computer locks up on exit of TS anyway.
*Yamaha SXG Driver - This is a software emulation driver, which works with TS, but causes a sound lag more noticeable than Windows NT. Computer locks up on exit.
*Game Compatible Device - The most basic driver. Probably has a 16-channel max, no frills, no hardware features used. Works with TS, but computer still locks up on exit.
Unfortunately, it's not a problem that can be fixed by updating the drivers... I've tried. Since TS is the only game I have that locks the machine up on exit, I must assume it's TS itself that's the problem. This is unfortunate, but I'm not about to stop playing with trains. My computer has its problems, but they're fewer than it had with its previous motherboard (I did a total system re-install at that time, so it's not motherboard driver conflicts). I'm not really asking for assistance, I've learned that any piece of machinery has its quirks. I know it's next to impossible to diagnose a computer's problems remotely, and the suggestion was a valid one. Thank you, in any case. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rob20 (114 posts)
Dec-20-01, 10:58 PM (EST) 11. "RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupler dilema" Interesting scenario.
I made a activity ( marias 3.0 )
2 sd40'2s off the shop at whitefish (back to back)
Train in track 1, with a joint in the middle (20 cars back)
You have to make joint very slow with lots of wait. *Mulitple cars must make multiple force on your joint which is true but you can still (in real life!) make a 5-6 mph joint with lots of wait and keep everything on the track, trust me I know!
Anyway... lift 40cars ex Whitefish and setoff 20 at columbia falls. No problem. set off the last 20 at essex pit and lift 20 loads and bring into essex. Wye the power (2 units b2b) and couple onto the tail at less than 1mph and bang!! cars all over the place.
Good thing i saved the game before i cut the power off!
2nd scenario....(still at essex with same train
cut 2 units and 1 car off and wye all 3. Couple on and bang! on the ground again under 1mph!
Scenario 3....
cut 2 units and 1 car off and wye all 3. Line wye switch and 'kick' the 1 car at 6mph or so onto the tail end of the train. Good couple, Make the joint with the power and it was good as well. Left essex and pulled the train properly to colulmbia falls and lifted about 15 more different loads and came into whitefish with train responding perfectly.Hope you could keep up with this. I thought it was interesting that i kicked the car on top of the tail of the train and it worked!
Rob Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Stew (59 posts)
Dec-21-01, 00:32 AM (EST) 13. "RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupler dilema" Joerg,If you have a free hour or so through the weekend drop out to Shelbourne Plaza. The club modules are set up out there at least into the new year. I plan to be out there tomorrow evening and probably Saturday, if you drop by we could maybe talk MSTS for awhile.Stew Clark Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jseiler (30 posts)
Dec-21-01, 01:06 AM (EST) 14. "RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupler dilema" Hello Stew,I'll be there! Tommorrow probably around six.See you then.
Joerg Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
gordonfan (84 posts)
Dec-21-01, 03:08 PM (EST) 15. "RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupler dilema" good job
Joseph Criscuolo
gordonfan@att.net
njtransitmsts@yahoo.com Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
TOPDOG5184 (322 posts)
Dec-21-01, 09:15 PM (EST) 17. "RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupler dilema" LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-01 AT 09:29 PM (EST)Hi all. Sorry if my last reply sounded rude. I'm just a little stressed out from working on this coupler. Its like you fix one thing and another problem occurs. fix that one and another,etc. Really I'm very sorry if that sounded rude. it wasn't meant to but I guess I just got a little caried away. won't happen again. and I wasn't trying to step on anyone's toes or anything and it is a very good question. I've been looking into that as well. And I do appreciate any info and help. I have been checking all forums and have been replying to each one that has a suggestion with the front coupler. I have tried several peoples ideas so far but none seem to work. the only thing that works so far is to just flat out remove the brakes. and I, like you all, really don't want to drive without brakes. I'll keep you all posted and please keep me posted with your ideas and info. I won't blow up promise. it was just that I had a long day that day and between the coupler and work and christmas and all I was just out of it that day. again very sorry. Craig Shortino Built a better coupler to make this "as real as it gets". ( though its still in beta ) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Overkill211 (48 posts)
Dec-21-01, 11:02 PM (EST) 19. "RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupler dilema" I'm familiar with that that feeling. My father and I just replaced the rear main seal in my car's engine (a process which requires pulling the whole engine out). First, the brand new oil pan gasket breaks when we install it. Then we break the bushing on the transmission's torque converter when we're putting the engine back in. Five days later, when we've had a new bushing machined, we finally get the engine back in. Fill the oil, and we find out our floor jack managed to puncture the oil pan. We go to jack the car back up to fix the new leak, and find that the floor jack has sprung a leak and no longer operates. Pulled out my father's 26-year old bottle jack to lift the car and plugged the leak with epoxy. Went back today to rebuild the carbeurator, and - guess what - the rear main seal is leaking again.
Murphy was a prophet, heed him well.
(Oh, and sorry to anybody who didn't understand a word of this.) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
TOPDOG5184 (322 posts)
Dec-22-01, 01:17 AM (EST) 20. "RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupler dilema" Hiya Overkill. I know what your saying and what you mean. I restore classic cars for a living. ( not bad for a 17 year old who loves classic cars ) Some days I get the same problems. Just got done rebuilding a 40 Packard and had the dang Rear diff. go right when I started it up. It seemed the guy lied when he said he replaced the rear axle and diff. so I had to take off the drive shaft, the rear axle the shocks, brake lines, etc. just to replace it. Ohh well more money for me come pay day and less for him. LMAO Craig Shortino Built a better coupler to make this "as real as it gets". ( though its still in beta ) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Overkill211 (48 posts)
Dec-22-01, 06:04 PM (EST) 21. "RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupler dilema" It can be a joy, when they're working right. The above report was on a '63 Valiant station wagon (225 slant six). I just keep hoping my father might eventually want to part with one of his '70 Challengers. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Captain Bazza (201 posts)
Dec-23-01, 11:03 PM (EST) 22. "RE: " Meanwhile back in the LOCO shop :-) ............." Another issue that causes malfunctioning couplings is getting the three-way interacting dimensions of SIZE, TENSOR (.ENG) and BOUNDING BOX (.SD) setting correct. It is possible to have the rear couplings working okay, but the a problem occurring with the front coupler. The bounding box dimension setup relating locomotives and wagons is not properly explained in the one and only doc on the subject.Stew is correct, the loco orientation is set in the 3d prog, not the sim. Get it wrong and your loco might move sideways down the track Don't let the computer WIN! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
AC4400 (2 posts)
Dec-24-01, 04:06 PM (EST) 23. "My front coupler works!" LAST EDITED ON Dec-24-01 AT 04:42 PM (EST)When you guys say that your front coupler doesn't work or acts funny what kind of things are happening?
I have been doing some tests with the front coupler using a stock GP38 and 3 stock auto racks in a simple activity.
I would ucouple from all 3 cars and tied back onto them no prob then I would go in forward and push all three cars and found that they go just as well as if I were pulling them. I put the throttle in notch 8 and leave it there and the trottle would climb up to 60 mph or more no problem there. Then I tried in reverse and pulled the cars in throttle 8 and found no problem going 60 mph or more. I also uncoupled and coupled all the cars a different car each try and found no problem until I put a hand brake on then I ran into trouble, I would go to get the train up to 60 mph and it felt like I was skiding the car that put the hand brake on but i checked F9 again and found that the handbrake was release but it felt like it was still on! I guess I won't put the hand brake on then! I didn't toy around with the wag or eng files they remained the same. I will keep testing. My be I will have to do what you guys did and toy with the brakes. but I will just toy with the hand brake;)just wanted to know what kind of problems and theories you guys have and thought I might be of some help.Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you guysMatt Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Mrscotti (31 posts)
Dec-25-01, 09:12 AM (EST) 24. "RE: " I got it!!!!!!! " Front coupler dilema" Along w/ the coupler problem I as thinking maybe we could fix the sound problem the same way, Make a 4/5 loco consist that thinks it's one loco, So they would all sound like they're working together instead of idling......just a thought Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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