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chrisell (248 posts)
Dec-17-01, 11:59 AM (EST) "Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?" So lets say that a friend of a friend of an acquaintance of mine recently unearthed a nugget of information that points to Microsoft making a TGV add-on pack for MSTS. Has anyone else heard anything along the same lines ? This little rumour comes from a legal-ese discussion with Eurostar that has been simmering in the background, about use of their symbols and trade marks. One slip that they made was that they've let it be known that Microsoft themselves are in negotiation with Eurostar for the use of their train and symbols / trade marks for inclusion in what they call "the next version of MSTS" (I paraphrase).Comments or wild accusations are all welcome.
Chris Longhurst. Read the mini FAQ at: http://www.christrains.com/
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Subject Author Message Date ID RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumour... LawrenceKellie Dec-17-01 1 RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumour... zeeland174 Dec-17-01 8 RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumour... Andre Dec-17-01 2 RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumour... mickoo Dec-17-01 3 RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumour... dekosoft Dec-17-01 4 RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumour... chrisell Dec-17-01 5 RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumour... richrailart Dec-17-01 6 RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumour... ExpressMark Dec-17-01 7 RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumour... ctillier Dec-17-01 9 RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumour... cjmaclean Dec-21-01 25 RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumour... henry3 Dec-21-01 26 RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumour... FozzyBear Dec-18-01 10 RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumour... Euston Dec-18-01 11 RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumour... TAfan Dec-18-01 16 RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumour... ctillier Dec-18-01 12 RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumour... mickoo Dec-18-01 14 RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumour... mickoo Dec-18-01 13 RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumour... FozzyBear Dec-18-01 18 RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumour... ruifonseca Mar-12-02 27 RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumour... stationmaster Mar-14-02 31 RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumour... Dennis Dec-18-01 15 RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumour... mickoo Dec-18-01 17 RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumour... ctillier Dec-18-01 19 RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumour... mickoo Dec-18-01 20 RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumour... cyberbos Dec-18-01 21 RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumour... FozzyBear Dec-18-01 22 RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumour... gordonfan Dec-19-01 23 RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumour... gordonfan Dec-21-01 24 RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumour... harveype Mar-13-02 28 RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumour... gordonfan Mar-13-02 29 RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumour... chrisell Mar-14-02 30

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LawrenceKellie (1456 posts)
Dec-17-01, 01:32 PM (EST) 1. "RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?" Since this is hypothetical or rumor, what use is there in taking about it?Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
zeeland174 (59 posts)
Dec-17-01, 04:02 PM (EST) 8. "RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?" >Since this is hypothetical or rumor,
>what use is there in
>taking about it?
>
>Lawrence MSTS also started as a rumour
almost everything in the games buisines has been a rumour at one time
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Andre (162 posts)
Dec-17-01, 02:11 PM (EST) 2. "RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?" LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-01 AT 02:12 PM (EST)Chris,If it is true, could that mean the end of your Eurostar? Or other freeware and payware packages? Or the payware route of Europeanbahn?
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mickoo (146 posts)
Dec-17-01, 02:13 PM (EST) 3. "RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?" Hi Chris,Does it come with a red nose and bells ? LOL, l've not heard anything but your words on logos is alarming and exactly the same happened in the flight sim world when AA "banned" the use of its logos in ANY way shape or form in any virtual world.Designers should think carefully when applying textures of modern locos as they may actually be in breech of the host owners wishes, if you choose "fallen flags" or older schemes such as BR's double arrow or DSB winged wheel you should be ok..ish, however Eurostar and TGV are prime companies that would view such applications dimley, perhaps Virgin rail as well ?.Generally freeware designers would not be effected and the onus is l belive on the hosts to police such policys as Flight sim did with the AA scenario but payware designers have to tread more carefully.Best regardsMichael Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dekosoft (196 posts)
Dec-17-01, 02:35 PM (EST) 4. "RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?" Exactly -- this is why Deko 3-D has been seeking out licensing agreeements for its releases, and why we haven't done models for all the road names we'd like and many of you have requested. Even 'fallen flag' names and logos are still owned by someone, and in this heyday of litigation and backstabbing it's best to tread carefully.Chip
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chrisell (248 posts)
Dec-17-01, 03:10 PM (EST) 5. "RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?" As far as the freeware Eurostar goes - it stays until someone complains. If that happens, I'll have to remove it from circulation, or change the name to something similar, but not infringing - like EuroTrain for example. It would be naff, so lets hope that doesn't happen. Mind you, Chris Sawyer of Transport Tycoon fame, got away with using Eurostar on one of his trains for years and never had a problem, and that was commercial software.....
Chris Longhurst. Read the mini FAQ at: http://www.christrains.com/
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richrailart (68 posts)
Dec-17-01, 03:21 PM (EST) 6. "RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?" When I purchased MSTS from Video125 I was told that there would be a UK specific add-on from Microsoft sometime next year.
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ExpressMark (99 posts)
Dec-17-01, 03:27 PM (EST) 7. "RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?" I dont know about a MSTS 2 but I do know that TGV doesnt want there logos used. Our first project at 3DTrains was not the LTV, but in fact it was a TGV Atlantique. I personally designed the TGV we were going to do as a commercial release, however, we have not been able to get permission to do so, in fact to date they have declined. I am watching this recent TGV release to see if any action is taken, if not then it probably wont be long till you will see yet another TGV come out, with a ROute ofcourse.Mark
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ctillier (119 posts)
Dec-17-01, 04:37 PM (EST) 9. "RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?" I'll keep you posted- ditto for Thalys.For what it's worth, somebody at SNCF sent me a Photoshop file of the new TGV logo when it came out and said I could put it on TGVweb. So I did.I think their general approach is "if in doubt, refuse"Clem
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cjmaclean (888 posts)
Dec-21-01, 03:38 PM (EST) 25. "RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?" Oh, how much would I like to see a high-quality TGV-plus-route (or "routes") package!!! I hope somebody will eventually get the green light to make one! I do hope, however, that it would then be distributed in stores.BTW, Mark from 3D Trains, if you are reading this, will the LTV add-on be distributed in Europe as well? I really appreciate any new route!
D.M.
"Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
henry3 (664 posts)
Dec-21-01, 04:11 PM (EST) 26. "RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?" And on that same subject; has anyone tried that payware Northern European TGV route? I remember taking a look at the sampler that they had awhile back and it looked pretty interesting. However, I don't recall seeing anything in the forum about the full route.Advice? Comments?Henry Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
FozzyBear (756 posts)
Dec-18-01, 12:55 PM (EST) 10. "RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?"
Well actually!! As far as the copyright issue is concerned the law in Europe is quite specific! There is no breach of copyright as long as you don't charge for the model! You can use whatever logo's you like it doesn't matter who owns them. As long as you don't proffit from it in any way! Otherwise if you think about it! it would be illegal to even photograph a train! and how many railway photographs are published without the consent of the owner of that particular train! There is of course the fair thing to do which is to respect the wishes of the owners of those logo's but leagally there is actually nothing they can do to prevent you from having their logo on a freeware model. Given that these are large corporations we're talking about, who in any case overcharge for their tickets and spend their time ripping us off! I have no sympathy for them!Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Euston (895 posts)
Dec-18-01, 02:15 PM (EST) 11. "RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?" It is illegal to photograph some trains - for years you could could get arrested for photographing SNCF trains - and I nearly got arrested at Waterloo for photographing a Eurostar.I hope MS bring out a bullet train pack (just seen one at York, would love to drive it - somehow driving my Eurostar at 190 in Tokyo doesn't satisfy.Perhaps a fast train pack - ICE, Eurostar, TGV, Bullet Train (all of them), IC-225.
http://clix.to/trainsim Lanserat East RR - 20% complete see images on my website. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
TAfan (311 posts)
Dec-18-01, 03:02 PM (EST) 16. "RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?" >I nearly got arrested at
>Waterloo for photographing a Eurostar. Apparently it's for "security reasons". A friend of mine tried the same trick and was met with some very firm resistance from Eurostar officials. Curiously, this was only at the end of the platform that isn't covered by the canopy. Apparently they wouldn't even let anyone near the far end of the train, although there was nothing stopping anyone snapping away at the other end of the train inside the station. Maybe it has more to do with station security than train security.>driving my Eurostar at 190
>in Tokyo doesn't satisfy. Bet it scares the commuters on the platforms though >Perhaps a fast train pack -
>ICE, Eurostar, TGV, Bullet Train
>(all of them), IC-225. Yep, and you could enjoy the frustration of driving the pefectly capable IC225 along tracks barely fit for Stephenson's Rocket. And having to dodge dozing Land Rover drivers Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
ctillier (119 posts)
Dec-18-01, 02:20 PM (EST) 12. "RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?" So are you saying I can't SELL a photo of a train bearing a certain logo without getting the trademark owner's permission?I have done that numerous times before, I had no idea it might be illegal.Clem
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mickoo (146 posts)
Dec-18-01, 02:46 PM (EST) 14. "RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?" Clem,What is legal and what is illegal is a very grey muddy world, from my understanding a lone preson being paid for a few photos will not illicit the wrath of the men in black, however someone like MS using Eurostar and TGV will most definately !. In a court of law it would have to be decided on the term profit, the fact that you received $10 for a photo and then get sued for it is ludicrous, however $1000 and it may be a different story.The law would almost certainly hit the company that published the image and not the person who took it, after all you sold it to them in good faith what they do with it is out of your hands !.If you want to be really picky take eng files these are edited with notepad do you have a license for that ? no but you have a license for Win98 or whatever, but.. is that a commercial license from MS you have ? that allows you to use a MS product to make money which in reality at the end of the month may buy you and your wife a meal in a resturaunt. What about PSP6/7 or any other software you use to make just one byte of simulated train.Michael Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
mickoo (146 posts)
Dec-18-01, 02:34 PM (EST) 13. "RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?" Ahh Julian,There in lies the crux, freeware / payware, freeware is all fine and dandy, payware beware !. Usually there first tack is to contact you to remove offending items, if you resist big smack around the back of the head. Personlly l have never heard of any payware person or company being done for copyright for simulated items, after all you have drawn it yourself and thus have some copyright issues yourself.Photos are another issue as every magazine or book shows images of "company" logos, most photographers are paid for there work but are never approached about legalities of copyright and they are selling photos for profit.From what l can gather its only fore front large trade names that seem to be against use of there logos ie Eurostar, TGV, Virgin rail, Coco Cola, who have large publicity offices where there trade name generates revenue, companies where there product is less defined and to the front of public awareness seem to have a less than curious view towards use of logos, having said that it pays to tread with care.One wonders if you were to get permission to use the logo who should it go to, everybody or just a few registered people, then of course you have to police it, then you have to employ a lawer to sue and claw back some money, if the offender has none who wins ?, nobody.A horrible mess to be sure and l suppose there is no real answer other than look out test the waters and see what happens. To date no one has ever approached me for any work ever produced nor have l ever heard of anybody else being chased by the "men in black".Hmm food for thought.Michael Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
FozzyBear (756 posts)
Dec-18-01, 04:19 PM (EST) 18. "RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?"
Thanks for your input on this Michael, I think your assesment is absolutely right.... I've never come across anybody being chased except in the case where they are making money out of somebody elses logo... Most companies are quite happy for their logo to be used without any problem simply because if you think about it, it's free advertising for them.The only thing to be aware of is if they do get heavy handed then it's easier to drop it and remove anything that offends them than it is to battle it out. Even if the truth is that they stand no chance of winning a case unless you personally made a profit from it.Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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ruifonseca (19 posts)
Mar-12-02, 07:23 AM (EST) 27. "RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?" > Well actually!! As far as the copyright issue
>is concerned the law in Europe is quite specific!
>
> There is no breach of copyright as long
>as you don't charge for the model! You can use
>whatever logo's you like it doesn't matter who owns them.
>As long as you don't proffit from it in any
>way!
>
> Otherwise if you think about it! it would
>be illegal to even photograph a train!Here in Portugal it has been simpler. I just asked CP and REFER to give me permission to photograph the trains and stations and they agreed. WWWOOOOWWW
I just did not tell them specifically my purpose In the other hand... I presented to CP my project of CP Virtual, and they haven't give me any response wathsoever...
then I have the example of my Railway Assocation... we photograph every portuguese train and publish the photos in the Club's paper, althougt the members get it for free, the paper is sold in every modelling shops in Lisbon... and CP never complained about this... and we publish photos,... diagrams, layout's technical information... we even tape record things like cabs, and CTC's
So, I believed that if they decline to officially recognize my project... thay did it because I asked, and because "when in doubt, refuse" My opinion is, "shoot first, ask questions later" Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
stationmaster (379 posts)
Mar-14-02, 03:07 PM (EST) 31. "RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?" I guess if railroads start getting fussy about being photographed from public property we'll end up being "Rail-Paparazzi".Several auto manufacturers own test tracks near where I live and a small cottage industry has popped up for photographers who take spy photos of prototypes and sell them to trade magazines. One photographer even purchased land next to one of the test tracks. The test tracks have berms, trees and bushes to screen them from view, but the photographers usually catch the cars when they are taken out for "real" road tests. Most of us don't even notice the new cars because they really don't change much from year-to-year.Back to the original topic - What I fear is the dreaded "Exclusive License". That could really harm our hobby if it catches on.Ron Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Dennis (123 posts)
Dec-18-01, 02:54 PM (EST) 15. "RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?" Well it is all depending on the "Arrogance" of the logo owner.Like AA for the flightsim world, I would never wanted to design anything from them anyhow after they
showed so much arrogance. At the other hand I designed a Icelandair 747 and had a personal thank
you from the airport after they found out.Dennis
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mickoo (146 posts)
Dec-18-01, 04:06 PM (EST) 17. "RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?" Hi Dennis,Well put, arrognace is the correct term and for the more in the public eye the logo is read more arrogant and protective of there logo.I do not think many of the more generic complanies like BR ( you remember them ! ) DB, NSB, RENFE, SBB etc are really that bothered as there logo has little or no effect on cash flow income, however the name Eurostar, ICE, Virgin, are all full in your face brand names and have big company depts that spend millions making it so, these are the ones that will stomp on you.However l think l have found a way out for commercial designers, l for one will apply it to ever loco l ever make, simply put the problem is the application and selling of the logo however if released for free there is little come back, now if you were to release the logo texture for free you would not be breaking copyright rules !, how you split your logo from the rest of the loco is up to individual designers but l have my way and its copywrited LOL, no seriously ITS NOT COPYRIGHTED anybody who works it out can use it anyway they like besides my way may not be the best way.The next question is having solved the logo issue does the legality cover the actual paint scheme ?, l mean could you paint a TGV and leave off the logo or make the logo freeware for your train and still not infringe copyright, ie does copyright extend to paint schemes ?, if so were all dooomed.Best regardsMichaelPS justice has a perverse way bitting back and l believe AA are a "fallen flag" ?. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
ctillier (119 posts)
Dec-18-01, 04:49 PM (EST) 19. "RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?" Why, you have just described my Plan B Clem
Train Simulator Speedworks
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mickoo (146 posts)
Dec-18-01, 05:05 PM (EST) 20. "RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?" Hi Clem,We are both commercial designers and l think you knwo how l will do it and l think l know how you will do it , it is no secret but neither of us will publish it publically, there are many such agreements in the FS world between many of my friends, it makes for healthy competition but allows everybody to remain friends.Like Fozzybear says if you take all resonable actions to help overcome the issue then chances are you will be alright, however your train( TGV which looks very good l must add and as a never buy anything because l can make it myself does have my hand twitching with the credit card LOL ) is more in the fore front of this issue than some of my older locomotives in older colors.Best wishesMichael Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
cyberbos (10 posts)
Dec-18-01, 05:20 PM (EST) 21. "RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?" Didn't we have the same story this year at flight-sim with American Airlines?Developers using their logos and they complained about it and all the AA aircraft had to be removed from the download section.
We all make the product famous in this World and instead of we paying them to have to pay us for making the product, instead of complaining about using their logos.I am amazed how company’s can be that stupid, getting free advertising and still complain about this logos think.Regards
Ries ‘t Hart
http://www.msts.nl
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FozzyBear (756 posts)
Dec-18-01, 08:52 PM (EST) 22. "RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?" >Didn't we have the same story
>this year at flight-sim with
>American Airlines?
>
>Developers using their logos and they
>complained about it and all
>the AA aircraft had to
>be removed from the download
>section. Well as I said! You don't breach anybody’s copyright unless you actually profit from doing it, Or, the company whose logo it is loses sums of money because you put it on your model!! I think they would have a very difficult time proving that they lost money from their logo being on a freeware locomotive...... In fact the designer could easily prove the opposite was the case and that they gained from the free advertising!>I am amazed how company’s can
>be that stupid, getting free
>advertising and still complain about
>this logos think. Yup! but this is because as well as intelligent people in the world there are quite a few total dipsticks!! And unfortunately it only takes one dipstick in charge of any department of a company to start causing grief!! Unfortunately quite a few dipsticks do make it to management positions!!I hasten to add that, not in my company they don't! and if anybody wants to give us free advertising by putting our logo on a locomotive, I'll be thanking them not trying to drag them into court!!Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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gordonfan (132 posts)
Dec-19-01, 05:56 PM (EST) 23. "RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?" I got it! If they complain either or both take of the logo and/or make it into Acela, GNER and/or Fictional NS skins.
And Eurostar in an Acela skin would be pretty cool. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
gordonfan (132 posts)
Dec-21-01, 02:59 PM (EST) 24. "RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?" I contacted Eurostar by email but didn't mention eur Eurostar.
Joseph Criscuolo
gordonfan@att.net
njtransitmsts@yahoo.com Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
harveype (43 posts)
Mar-13-02, 06:17 AM (EST) 28. "RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?" Hi off the subject of copy write and on to the subject of Kuju if you visit there web site and look under employment they are seeking to employ designers, software people for the development of MSTS2 they are offering 2 year contracts which means more than likly it will be up to two years before you see MSTS2.Peter Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
gordonfan (132 posts)
Mar-13-02, 07:31 PM (EST) 29. "RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?" I got an email from a Eurostar representative they may have it in MSTS 2. Microsoft is negotiating with Eurostar to have the Eurostar route. Probably the Channel Tunnel (Eurotunnel) (hey can you hit Afgans fleeing to England then?) l.o.l.






Joseph Criscuolo
gordonfan@att.net
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chrisell (248 posts)
Mar-14-02, 11:05 AM (EST) 30. "RE: Microsoft TGV pack - the rumourmill ?" That might be why Eurostar's legal department got on to me to try to get me to stop distribution of the free train then.......
Chris Longhurst. Read the mini FAQ at: http://www.christrains.com/
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