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HerbsPirate (15 posts)
Apr-15-02, 01:43 AM (EDT) "Frame rates" Here's another newbie question.
My new system is:
Athlon 1800XP
Asus A7V133 motherboard
512 PC133RAM
Geforce2 MX400 64MEG AGP
SoundBlaster audigy
I'm running DX8.1 and windows 98se.
I have all the latest drivers for all hardware.I'm running Train Simulator at 1024 X 768 16bit.
Graphic detail is set to maximum.
When in "outside" view (number keys 2 or 3) my frame rates are in the low 20's often only 21.
With this machine shouldn't I be getting better frame rates?
Is the 'bottleneck' my video card?Any suggestions would be appreciated.Thanks again Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Table of Contents

Subject Author Message Date ID RE: Frame rates PsYcHo Apr-15-02 1 RE: Frame rates FozzyBear Apr-15-02 2 RE: Frame rates HerbsPirate Apr-15-02 3 RE: Frame rates FozzyBear Apr-15-02 4 RE: Frame rates Eagleknight Apr-15-02 5 RE: Frame rates HerbsPirate Apr-15-02 6 RE: Frame rates sniper297 Apr-15-02 7 RE: Frame rates chocalate77 Apr-15-02 9 RE: Frame rates FozzyBear Apr-15-02 8 RE: Frame rates sniper297 Apr-15-02 10 RE: Frame rates HerbsPirate Apr-15-02 11 RE: Frame rates rrlyon Apr-16-02 12 RE: Frame rates FozzyBear Apr-16-02 14 RE: Frame rates LAHDPOP Apr-16-02 15 RE: Frame rates jfroth1 Apr-16-02 16 RE: Frame rates Would71 Apr-17-02 21 RE: Frame rates derekmorton Apr-16-02 13 RE: Frame rates sniper297 Apr-16-02 17 RE: Frame rates rrlyon Apr-17-02 18 RE: Frame rates FozzyBear Apr-17-02 19 RE: Frame rates sniper297 Apr-17-02 20 RE: Frame rates dgortner Apr-17-02 22 RE: Frame rates Would71 Apr-17-02 23 RE: Frame rates Would71 Apr-17-02 24 RE: Frame rates netmasteroc3 Apr-17-02 25 RE: Frame rates Would71 Apr-17-02 26 RE: Frame rates netmasteroc3 Apr-17-02 27 RE: Frame rates LAHDPOP Apr-17-02 28 RE: Frame rates Would71 Apr-17-02 29 RE: Frame rates sniper297 Apr-17-02 30 RE: Frame rates jfroth1 Apr-18-02 31 RE: Frame rates nine10ths Apr-19-02 32 RE: Frame rates pestocat Apr-21-02 33 RE: Frame rates Fastruck May-09-02 34

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PsYcHo (16 posts)
Apr-15-02, 02:19 AM (EDT) 1. "RE: Frame rates" in short yes.
For a system like that an ideal card would be from a GeForce 2 GTS to a GeForce 3 Ti either 200 or 500.
I have a Duron 600 @ 1000, 256MB DDR Ram, and a GeForce 3 Ti200.
I can easily pull out 25-80 FPS.
Hope that helps Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
FozzyBear (1153 posts)
Apr-15-02, 02:45 AM (EDT) 2. "RE: Frame rates" LAST EDITED ON Apr-15-02 AT 02:47 AM (EST)>in short yes.
>For a system like that an
>ideal card would be from
>a GeForce 2 GTS to
>a GeForce 3 Ti either
>200 or 500.
>I have a Duron 600 @
>1000, 256MB DDR Ram, and
>a GeForce 3 Ti200.
>I can easily pull out 25-80
>FPS.
>Hope that helps This is not at all right, The answer is NO! the bottleneck isn't your video card. It's more likely to be bus speed.... I run one of our machines with the same vid card and an Athlon 1200... I get a low frame rate in the 30's and a high of at least 60.Try running Mprofile.exe which is in your MSTS directory. This will create a machine profile that MSTS will then use to determine the data rate that can be supported.Also check to see that you are running the most current AGP Bus drivers for your motherboard (not the generic ones that windows installs) and that the bus is running at 4X AGP. This can make a hell of a diference. Doing that took my frame rate from a high of 43 to a high of 60+You seem to have no Ram size problem so I wouldn't worry too much in that area, but do take a look at what progs are running in your system tray and dump anything you don't really need to be using, or at least turn it off while running MSTS... free up as many machine resources as you can.Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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HerbsPirate (15 posts)
Apr-15-02, 03:09 AM (EDT) 3. "RE: Frame rates" Thanks.I know the drivers are right.
How do I confirm that the AGP is running at 4X?
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FozzyBear (1153 posts)
Apr-15-02, 04:59 AM (EDT) 4. "RE: Frame rates" >How do I confirm that the
>AGP is running at 4X? Get hold of a little Util called CPUID, I forget the address to get it from but a lot of the freeware software sites will have it. Try a search on www.tucows.com This will give you a lot of system information and tell you what speed the bus is running at.Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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Eagleknight (135 posts)
Apr-15-02, 09:48 AM (EDT) 5. "RE: Frame rates" Your video card could be better. One thing you can try if you want to have some fun is overclocking that 1800 xp. The 1800 is one of the best XP overclocking and there is many how toos on the net on how to do it. www.tomshardware.com has a guide to voerclocking xp processors. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
HerbsPirate (15 posts)
Apr-15-02, 05:41 PM (EDT) 6. "RE: Frame rates" Hey Fozzy,I have the latest VIA 4in1 drivers.
I am running 4X AGP.I should clarify that 21FPS is a worst case scenario.I noticed in my BIOS that my FSB is 133MHZ.
With the A7V133 board I should be getting 266.
I know that the Athlon chip works a bit "differently" with the system bus.
I've been told that it is normal for the bios to show 133 when it is in fact effectively running at 266.Anyway, can you clarify any of this for me.
I'm way over my learning curve!! :-PThanks!!! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
sniper297 (2189 posts)
Apr-15-02, 05:57 PM (EDT) 7. "RE: Frame rates" Here's my specs:My computer;
Tower case, 350 watt power supply
Three 80mm 12v case fans
Motherboard: ASUS A7A-266
Processor: AMD Palimino XP1600+
Memory: 768MB PC-2100 DDR RAM
Video: NVIDIA GeForce 4 Ti-4400 128MB AGP
Hard disk: WD Caviar Ultra ATA-100 7200rpm 40 gig hd
Sound: Creative SB 512 PCI
OS: Windows 98 Second Edition
Modem: Speedstream 5260 Ethernet 300 DSL
ISP: SBC AmeritechMy son's computer;
Tower case, 300 watt power supply
Motherboard: ASUS A7V
Processor: AMD Thunderbird 800MHZ
Memory: 384 MB PC-133 SDRAM
Video: Creative 3D Blaster Annihilator 2 64MB AGP (GEFORCE 2 GTS clone)
Hard disk: WD Caviar ATA-66 5400rpm 30 gig hd
Sound: Creative Ensoniq Audio PCI
OS: Windows 98 Second EditionOne thing you didn't note was the type and speed of your hard disk, a lot of video stuttering is caused by the grapghics having to wait for new objects to be loaded from the hard disk into RAM. A 7200 rpm hard drive smooths that out quite a bit, but the system.ini file needs to be edited to add the line:
ConservativeSwapfileUsage=1
in the <386Enh> section to keep windows from swapping stuff back to disk before the RAM is even half full.Two bottlenecks I see in your specs:
(1) PC-133 SDRAM is 133 mhz, regardless. The bus speed is marketing BS, it's 133 mhz. If your motherboard supports PC-2100 DDR RAM, the "Double Dynamic Rate" part of that gives you the effect of 266 mhz, since it runs two cycles to the PC-133's single cycle.
(2) GEFORCE MX-anything is a dumbed-down lame version, there's a good reason why the MX cards are a lot cheaper than the others. A GEFORCE 2 GTS/PRO is faster than the GEFORCE 3 MX models.
The third thing would be your hard disk, if it's not ATA-100 7200 rpm it needs to be. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
chocalate77 (22 posts)
Apr-15-02, 07:34 PM (EDT) 9. "RE: Frame rates" One thing you could try is if the sound card is in the PCI slot next to the AGP slot move the sound card along one. It sometimes helps.
Francis Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
FozzyBear (1153 posts)
Apr-15-02, 07:14 PM (EDT) 8. "RE: Frame rates" LAST EDITED ON Apr-15-02 AT 07:16 PM (EST)
>I noticed in my BIOS that
>my FSB is 133MHZ.
>With the A7V133 board I should
>be getting 266.
>I know that the Athlon chip
>works a bit "differently" with
>the system bus.
>I've been told that it is
>normal for the bios to
>show 133 when it is
>in fact effectively running at
>266. Yeah! I run 266Mhz DDR.... That runs with a front side bus of 133Mhz as well..... It is indeed normal. What happens is that the memory bus uses a clock doubling technique to get 266Mhz Refresh Rate from the 133Mhz Bus. Don't worry! it's working the way it should do.Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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sniper297 (2189 posts)
Apr-15-02, 07:56 PM (EDT) 10. "RE: Frame rates" LAST EDITED ON Apr-15-02 AT 08:16 PM (EST)Look at his specs again, Fozzy. "512 PC133RAM". I dunno what that could be other than plain vanilla 133mhz PC-133 SDRAM. And whatever possessed you to say his video ain't one of the bottlenecks? A GEFORCE 2 MX with an 1800 mhz Athlon? You gotta make better jokes than that, Kermit will have you dragged you offstage!
Anyway, all system components need to match up. I bought a high end AGP card for an AMD K6-2 450 about 5 years ago, no performance increase at all over the PCI card. What you got here is the opposite, a fast CPU with a slow video card, and the RAM don't help either. If you know how to play with your ROM BIOS setup, you can overclock the bus speeds and slightly UNDERclock the CPU to get better framerates. The AGP transfers at the main bus speed, and what you get is 33 mhz for the PCI bus, 133 mhz for the main bus, and the clock speed of the processor is actually set by the bus multiplier. The labeled speed of the CPU is merely what it's designed to run at, the actual speed is set by mainbus x whatever multiplier is used. So if you can get it stable, you could do 40mhz PCI/140mhz main bus/x 12 = 1680 mhz (about what an 1800xp normally runs at).
As far as the video card, I had;Motherboard: ASUS A7A-266
Processor: AMD Palimino XP1600+
Memory: 768MB PC-2100 DDR RAM
Video: NVIDIA GeForce 2 GTS/PRO 64MB AGPOn 3D Mark 2001 (www.madonion.com), I got this benchmark;RESULTS
3DMark Score 3037
Game 1 - Car Chase - Low Detail 48.0 fps
Game 1 - Car Chase - High Detail 25.7 fps
Game 2 - Dragothic - Low Detail 40.7 fps
Game 2 - Dragothic - High Detail 22.2 fps
Game 3 - Lobby - Low Detail 54.8 fps
Game 3 - Lobby - High Detail 32.3 fps
Game 4 - Nature Not supported by hardware
Fill Rate (Single-Texturing) 283.8 MTexels/s
Fill Rate (Multi-Texturing) 485.5 MTexels/s
High Polygon Count (1 Light) 13.3 MTriangles/s
High Polygon Count (8 Lights) 2.9 MTriangles/s
Environment Bump Mapping Not supported by hardware
DOT3 Bump Mapping 36.8 fps
Vertex Shader 37.5 fps
Pixel Shader Not supported by hardware
Point Sprites 7.6 MSprites/sI replaced the GEFORCE 2 GTS/PRO with the GEFORCE 4 Ti-4400 128MB AGP card, no other alterations to the system, and got this;RESULTS
3DMark Score 8360
Game 1 - Car Chase - Low Detail 120.0 fps
Game 1 - Car Chase - High Detail 40.6 fps
Game 2 - Dragothic - Low Detail 158.5 fps
Game 2 - Dragothic - High Detail 90.3 fps
Game 3 - Lobby - Low Detail 110.7 fps
Game 3 - Lobby - High Detail 50.3 fps
Game 4 - Nature 42.2 fps
Fill Rate (Single-Texturing) 931.0 MTexels/s
Fill Rate (Multi-Texturing) 2105.2 MTexels/s
High Polygon Count (1 Light) 44.9 MTriangles/s
High Polygon Count (8 Lights) 11.5 MTriangles/s
Environment Bump Mapping 96.1 fps
DOT3 Bump Mapping 134.9 fps
Vertex Shader 85.0 fps
Pixel Shader 110.5 fps
Point Sprites 28.4 MSprites/sThe card I got is available at www.pricewatch.com for $230 plus shipping, in the store you'd pay 400 bucks for the same card. It's good to econimize, but do it by paying less for quality, not by settling for crap like MX. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
HerbsPirate (15 posts)
Apr-15-02, 09:57 PM (EDT) 11. "RE: Frame rates" Thanks everyone.
This helps.
This geForce2 MX400 was sold to me with the system with the implication that it was perfectly suitable to this particular system.
Obviously crap advice.I'm going to see if I can get a refund and upgrade to a Ti card.............. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rrlyon (180 posts)
Apr-16-02, 01:35 AM (EDT) 12. "RE: Frame rates" That is the typical response from a sales person trying to sell a generic system. Little time needed to set it up, or make changes.The video most likely is the culprit, as you point out the rest of the hardware is fairly current.My systems are all custom builds made by buying the cards I want and setting the hardware up to try and optimize it. My current MSTS system is a;Tower case 350Watt
Asus P4T-E motherboard with the new Intel 850 chipset
512MB Rambus PC800 RDRAM memory
ATI Radeon 7500 AGP video 64MB DDR memory (my cost cutting item, the board I wanted was $350, outside of my budget, it can be replaced later)
Soundblaster Audigy MP+3
IBM 60GB 7200rpm hard drive
DVD drive
CD-RW CdWriter
10/100 NIC to DSL modem
Windows 2000 ProI believe that you get performance based on the quality of the parts. I no longer discuss clone/off brand name parts with vendors for 2 reasons. First they are hard to find drivers and configure properly and second they never perform as well as the brand name board they duplicate. If you are not familiar with various hardware options, make friend with a guru and ask questions. Any information you have prior to a purchase is to your benefit.Richard
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FozzyBear (1153 posts)
Apr-16-02, 05:30 AM (EDT) 14. "RE: Frame rates" LAST EDITED ON Apr-16-02 AT 05:35 AM (EST)
>Look at his specs again, Fozzy.
>"512 PC133RAM". I dunno what
>that could be other than
>plain vanilla 133mhz PC-133 SDRAM.Yeah and I told him that his 133Mhz was perfectly normal. Then went on to describe how 266Mhz DDR works. DUHHH!!!!>And whatever possessed you to
>say his video ain't one
>of the bottlenecks? A GEFORCE
>2 MX with an 1800
>mhz Athlon? You gotta make
>better jokes than that, Kermit
>will have you dragged you
>offstage! Ohhhh! Right so in relation to his low frame rates which one of my machines, using a slower processor and GF2 MX 400 (ie the same card) and is wiping the floor with..... Not to be considered a bottleneck somwhere else in his system??? DUHHHH!!Of course your oppinion of "not settle for Crap like MX" was very helpful. I bow to a total god of hardware "Sniper297", who clearly knows everything there is to know! and from this point onwards he will be helping everyone on here who asks every single hardware question. So everybody!! If you have any hardware questions mail them immediately to sniper297, because clearly he knows everything there is to know about hardware related problems. In future please feel free to ignore the Bear in relation to anything related to hardware as Snipers superior knowledge is bound to always be right. (NOT)One last note sniper, nobody gives a toss about your 3D Mark score, it didn't relate to the question, you were just showing off! Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LAHDPOP (48 posts)
Apr-16-02, 09:04 AM (EDT) 15. "RE: Frame rates" I've got no comment on Sniper being an all-knowing hardware god.I've got no comment on Fozzy being wayyy too protective about his own hardware opinions.What I will comment on:
MX cards, are in fact, JUNK. Period. End of story. Even the G4 MX 440s and 460s. They don't even have as good a GPU as the G3 Ti cards. So I can't for the life of me understand why you'd come off so snotty toward Sniper. Disregard the 133 vs 266 discussion. Disregard his benchmark data. The inescapable fact remains, MX cards are dumbed down, cheapened cards meant for mass produced boxes, and unsuspecting consumers that don't know any better. This is from the nVidia home page:GeForce4 MX Series Enjoy the Views
The ideal solutions for:
Multiple display &
desktop flexibility
2D office applications
Web surfing2D office applications and web surfing???? C'mon! What gamer in his right mind would settle for a card designed, hyped, and marketed for "2D office applications and web surfing?"Fozzy, I don't know what's up your butt in regards to Sniper, but you better find a different war cry. His condemnation of the MX series is right on target.Pop Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jfroth1 (247 posts)
Apr-16-02, 03:52 PM (EDT) 16. "RE: Frame rates" LAST EDITED ON Apr-16-02 AT 04:12 PM (EST)LAHDPOP, I TOTALLY Agree with Both your Post and your NVidia MX assessment. Been there, done that.

John Roth
edit: I give a toss about 3dMark scores. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Would71 (123 posts)
Apr-17-02, 11:47 AM (EDT) 21. "RE: Frame rates" LAST EDITED ON Apr-17-02 AT 11:50 AM (EST)>One last note sniper, nobody gives
>a toss about your 3D
>Mark score, it didn't relate
>to the question, you were
>just showing off! Hey, I liked seeing his 3DMark score.. made me feel better that my slightly overclocked Radeon 8500 retail gets roughly the same scores he does for ~$60 less. (around 8300) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
derekmorton (411 posts)
Apr-16-02, 03:56 AM (EDT) 13. "RE: Frame rates" >I should clarify that 21FPS is a worst case scenario. I get about the same with a similar machine>I noticed in my BIOS that my FSB is 133MHZ.
>With the A7V133 board I should be getting 266.The FSB is clocked on the leading and trailing edge of the signal, therefore running at 133 x 2.

Derek Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
sniper297 (2189 posts)
Apr-16-02, 11:39 PM (EDT) 17. "RE: Frame rates" LAST EDITED ON Apr-16-02 AT 11:42 PM (EST)Hmmm, stirred up some feelings here, hey? So when you're done bowing, you could try to lighten up a little. I express an opinion on a public forum, I'm prepared to have that opinion challenged. I'm not married to any of my opinions, so if you challenge it I'm prepared to back it up, if you knock it into a cocked hat, I'm prepared to abandon it and subscribe to yours instead, if I think it's more valid than mine.
I wasn't disagreeing with "Yeah! I run 266Mhz DDR.... That runs with a front side bus of 133Mhz as well..... It is indeed normal. What happens is that the memory bus uses a clock doubling technique to get 266Mhz Refresh Rate from the 133Mhz Bus. Don't worry! it's working the way it should do."I just thought it needed to be clarified, since the guy is expecting 266mhz from the mobo with 133mhz RAM plugged into it, your statement "it's working the way it should do" could be confusing to a hardware novice.This statement I partially disagree with;
"This is not at all right, The answer is NO! the bottleneck isn't your video card. It's more likely to be bus speed.... I run one of our machines with the same vid card and an Athlon 1200... I get a low frame rate in the 30's and a high of at least 60."As I pointed out, there are other bottlenecks in his specs, but the vidcard don't match the CPU at all. And I posted the 3D Mark2001 benchmarks for before & after comparison between two cards, since the MSTS FPS counter is a rather cruddy benchmark for testing at the best of times, and statements like "I get 60 FPS" or "I only get 14 FPS" are totally worthless when you don't state when, where, and under what conditions.There are so many variables involved with detail and AI traffic, not to mention the quality settings for the card and in the sim, statements about how many FPS you get are meaningless, unless you specify "at MP 1413 on Marias with the 2xDash 9 37 oil consist, from the exterior view looking backwards" or something. This statement;
"in relation to his low frame rates which one of my machines, using a slower processor and GF2 MX 400 (ie the same card) and is wiping the floor with..... Not to be considered a bottleneck somwhere else in his system"
is even more meaningless, "wiping the floor" when you're driving a 10 car train on the S&C, with 640x480x16 and quality set to medium, mipmapping for Direct3D set to best performance. How do you know he don't have mipmapping at best quality, FSAA enabled, and he's talking about 21 FPS on a route and activity he usually drives that's a hell of a lot more graphics intensive than whatever your usual style of playing is? Or the other way around, you could be running the type of routes and activities that normally tank framerates, he could be exploring the NEC with the Acela. If you're gonna compare hardware, you gotta have some kind of common benchmark, or the comparisons are useless and misleading."Hey, wow, I get sixty frames per second in trainsim!"

"Man, there must be something wrong with my computer, I only get fourteen frames per second!"
"Not to be considered a bottleneck somwhere else in his system"
I agree with that totally, the PC-133 SDRAM has to go too, replaced with PC-2100 DDR RAM to utilize the full potential of the CPU. And he didn't mention the hard disk, the vendors all too frequently sucker the uninitiated with 5400 rpm hard drives, just like they sucker them with Celeron CPUs, slow RAM, and MX or mmx cards. And I stand by that statement, if you got a 450mhz CPU and 64mb of PC-100 SDRAM, a more expensive video card is not gonna show much, if any, improvement over an MX card. The problem is these scam artist retail vendors advertising FAST! systems at real cheap prices, and since they know the average new buyer don't know diddly squat other than CPU speed, they sell them a bleeding edge screamer CPU with last year's lame components that they pick up for 10 cents. In that case (like an 1800XP), the MX card (especially an old 2 MX) is a helluva big bottleneck. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rrlyon (180 posts)
Apr-17-02, 03:08 AM (EDT) 18. "RE: Frame rates" I guess flat terrain, no scenery and a single unit will give high numbers and the reverse can be said with lots of scenery and consists in a yard. I believe your system is probably working fine.Richard Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
FozzyBear (1153 posts)
Apr-17-02, 05:44 AM (EDT) 19. "RE: Frame rates" >Hmmm, stirred up some feelings here,
>hey? So when you're done
>bowing, you could try to
>lighten up a little. Sniper, It might surprise you to find out that I don't actually disagree with you!! 90% of what you had to say was absolutely correct. What I did object to was your decision to insult me first before making your points... I have absolutely no objection to alternate views and in fact very much welcome them. But not by insulting me before and during making your points! OKBest Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
sniper297 (2189 posts)
Apr-17-02, 09:20 AM (EDT) 20. "RE: Frame rates" Sorry if you felt insulted, no insult was intended. You gotta remember we're "Two peoples seperated by a common language", and misunderstandings are gonna happen. If I want to actually flame somebody, I always precede it with some kind of graphical display of intent;

You Brits have always been a little touchy tho, that business in Boston back in 1775, you couldn't figure out whether it was a practical joke or a formal declaration of war, and actually it was neither - we were merely experimenting with a new recipe for salt water tea! Didn't pan out, obviously, even the Irish wouldn't drink it that way.
My favorite example is a little bit of Operation Overlord trivia, during one of the pre-invasion planning meetings. One of the Yanks brought up the subject of the Mulberry artificial harbors (or "harbours", if you prefer), one of the Brits said they should "table the matter", and it damn near came to a third British vs. American war."Table the matter", American definition - Put it aside and forget about it for a while, go on to discuss other things, it's not important for now."Table the matter", British definition - Discuss it "around the table", each person giving his input in turn until it's settled.I always liked that one, perfect example of people who are on the same track, but because of different backgrounds, they don't realize that they are actually agreeing!How do you say "No hard feelings" in British? Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dgortner (4 posts)
Apr-17-02, 12:59 PM (EDT) 22. "RE: Frame rates" I've had a tought time with frame rates but have pretty decent performance at the moment. Have Athlon 1.2 gig Geforce3 ti200 overclocked a bit, but as many you have observed, I'm sure, for some reason static consists placed on sidings here and there really crunch frame rates but AI (traffic) trains don't make the same hit; and I don't mean just when they appear on your screen but if you simply have them somewhere in your activity. I put a bunch of static consists on yards all thru an activity and frame rates dropped like a brick; took them out and added more AI stuff and frame rates zoom up. Why is that when your view of a train is coming at you (runby or helicopter) rate are lousy but the same detail exists on your screne yet when the train is going away from your view rates jump up. Could it be lousy programming??? Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Would71 (123 posts)
Apr-17-02, 03:52 PM (EDT) 23. "RE: Frame rates" LAST EDITED ON Apr-17-02 AT 04:06 PM (EST)>I agree with that totally, the
>PC-133 SDRAM has to go
>too, replaced with PC-2100 DDR
>RAM to utilize the full
>potential of the CPU. And
>he didn't mention the hard
>disk, the vendors all too
>frequently sucker the uninitiated with
>5400 rpm hard drives, just
>like they sucker them with
>Celeron CPUs, slow RAM, and
>MX or mmx cards. And
>I stand by that statement,
>if you got a 450mhz
>CPU and 64mb of PC-100
>SDRAM, a more expensive video
>card is not gonna show
>much, if any, improvement over
>an MX card. The problem
>is these scam artist retail
>vendors advertising FAST! systems at
>real cheap prices, and since
>they know the average new
>buyer don't know diddly squat
>other than CPU speed, they
>sell them a bleeding edge
>screamer CPU with last year's
>lame components that they pick
>up for 10 cents. In
>that case (like an 1800XP),
>the MX card (especially an
>old 2 MX) is a
>helluva big bottleneck. Unless you have a system based on the ECS K7S5A, (Socket-A, SiS 735-based board) just "replacing the PC133 with PC2100" ain't happening without a mainboard swap.I'm not reading through this entire bickering-filled thread in detail to find out what all has been said, so if I repeat something previously mentioned, tough.If you want to throw together a truly cheap-but-fast system, go to someplace like Newegg.com that has excellent selection and service, and pick the following parts:Foundation:
ECS K7S5A motherboard, $54 + $9 shipping
- (allows for use of either PC100/133 SDRAM or PC1600/2100 DDR SDRAM, good for incremental upgrading, has built-in NIC and sound)AMD Duron 1.2 GHz retail CPU, $74 + $6.95 shipping
- (anyone who tells you a Duron isn't any good is lying to you. I am using a Duron/1 GHz @ 1280 MHz as we speak, and with the Radeon 8500 I mentioned earlier I pull the same 8300-ish 3DMarks that Sniper does with his Athlon/GF4-based system.. GREAT budget performer, and choosing the retail version means you get a heat sink and case badge along with it and 1 year warranty. If you buy your own heat sink instead, go with the 1.2 OEM, which is $51 but usually is warrantied for only 30 days, max)If your current system is a major name brand, it's probably a somewhat proprietary case design, in which you'd need a standard ATX case and a power supply with enouhg juice to feed this:
Evercase mid-tower w/ 300 watt ATX PSU, $42 + $15 shipping
- (decent inexpensive mid-tower with adequate power supply)
Now for the incremental upgrades:
Crucial 256 MB CAS 2.5 PC2100 DDR SDRAM, $72 + $7 shipping
- (use of the K7S5A would allow you to put this off, since you can reuse two sticks of PC100/133 until you get the DDR. You CAN NOT mix SDR and DDR on this board, so once you go DDR, take the old RAM out of the equation. Yes, I am aware you can get the memory right from Crucial, which is what I've done my last 5 purchases, but I'll get back to this point later.)Seagate Barracuda IV ATA-100 40 GB 7200 RPM hard drive, $77 + $7 shipping
- (some will bicker and argue until they're blue in the face about this brand or that brand, but I can tell you from personal experience that Cudas are good drives. I am running an 80 GB Cuda IV in this system, just put a 40 GB Cuda IV in a friend's system, and my last two Seagate drives [20.4 GB Cuda II and 9.1 GB Medalist Pro ATA] are still up and running perfectly in other systems in my house. Fast drive, not THE fastest but good enough for most users.. and VERY quiet, to boot)Sound is up to you, you may have a sound card you can reuse in your older system or you can use the on-board sound.. or pick up something like an SB Live! Value edition for $32 + $4 shipping.CD-ROM, DVD-ROM, CD-R, etc.. too many choices to list. Can also recycle one out of your former system.IMPORTANT NOTES: I am making this somewhat generalized because 1) I am not going back to see exactly what the original poster has already, and 2) this same formula can be used by anyone.. and is directed toward anyone who needs it. I will not make a video card recommendation because frankly, you're all discussing nVidia and I can't stand their video cards. Other notes: Operating systems can be reused (takes some work to do, tho) or installed on the mostly-new system. I suggest that if you're not comfortable with building or significantly upgrading your own system, that you either hire someone to do it or befriend a tech locally that can help you along.I am aware that many of these parts can be had for a few dollars less if you were to go to this site or that and shop around. Frankly, that approach gets annoying over time. Newegg.com is one of the highest-rated vendors on the entire Net, according to www.resellerratings.com AND has more parts available than most. The convenience of dealing with an excellent vendor and getting all or most parts at once FAR outweighs the saving of a few dollars.I will NOT debate any of my recommendations of hardware here, as I quite frankly don't care if any of the techie wanna-bes disagrees with this part or that part. You have your brand prefs, I have mine. I make a living off of mine, do you? Which brings me to one last point: many people will give you off-the-wall recommendations (like Sniper recommending a $230 video card.. gimme a break!) because they're not spending your money.. YOU ARE. I give my recommendations with money concerns in mind. You can certainly go UP from what and where I recommend, but you shouldn't have to go down much unless you can barely put food on the table as it is.If you should want to know what's in all three (soon to be four) of my systems, just ask and I'll list them in a separate post, so you can get an idea of what I have experience working with. All three run 24/7 under full load, since I do distributed computing projects.. (Folding@Home and Prime95) so I think I know a little bit about building decent, stable systems. (the EDIT is for a minor format correction.. and to take a moment to point out that, before anyone goes off the deep end over this post, I've already made a follow-up post regarding the original poster's system specifically. I was on a roll with this post, I didn't wanna break it up) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Would71 (123 posts)
Apr-17-02, 04:01 PM (EDT) 24. "RE: Frame rates" LAST EDITED ON Apr-17-02 AT 04:05 PM (EST)OK, NOW I'll go back and look specifically at your machine.. sorry, I wanted the last post to serve a wider purpose.Here's another newbie question.
My new system is:
Athlon 1800XP
Asus A7V133 motherboard
512 PC133RAM
Geforce2 MX400 64MEG AGP
SoundBlaster audigy
I'm running DX8.1 and windows 98se.1) Keep the XP, delete the Duron from the list.
2) Toss the ASUS, use the ECS board I mentioned, so you can use your current RAM on it if it's 2 sticks.
2a) If you have that board, tho, you already have enough case and PSU.
3) nVidia CRAP! lol.. must replace.
4) Keep sound card.
5) Keep OS.(EDIT was format fix again) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
netmasteroc3 (38 posts)
Apr-17-02, 04:50 PM (EDT) 25. "RE: Frame rates" "2a) If you have that board, tho, you already have enough case and PSU."I wouldnt assume that. Case maybe, but the ECS board is notorious for not working with out a GOOD PSU, like an Antec 300 (or better) or equivilent. Any generic 300W PSU may or may not cut it, and you will have problems that aren't readily diagnosable as being from the PSU.Infact, I wouldn't really recomend the outlay for an ECS K7S5A for a main box anyway - a cheep gaming box, box for the parents, or a distributed computing/rendering farm sure. Unless you are really tring to cut it cheep and keep your RAM, with the idea you'll upgrade later, its probibly not the best idea.Getting something form Asus, Gigabyte, MSI, Shuttle or some other hobbiest/tweaker vender, with a KT266A, KT333, or NV420 nForce. Personally I dont have a prefrence for venders, which ever hits your price-feature point.IMO, high frame rates are not important, whats improtant is having them stay constant and not jump around. Movies are run at 24 FPS and I have never heard of people having problems watching them, do you really need MSTS to run at 60FPS? Your mind will do a good job filling in and smoothing out the motion as long as your framerates dont jump from say 20 FPS to 10FPS and back constantly. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Would71 (123 posts)
Apr-17-02, 05:28 PM (EDT) 26. "RE: Frame rates" LAST EDITED ON Apr-17-02 AT 06:02 PM (EST)I believe I said it wasn't open to debate. I also believe I stated that it was with an eye on inexpensive upgrades, and keeping existing RAM. (512 megs of PC133, according to him)(EDIT: Before you go and say "what a rude response!", consider that I said beforehand I was not willing to debate it, and you went ahead and tried anyway) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
netmasteroc3 (38 posts)
Apr-17-02, 09:12 PM (EDT) 27. "RE: Frame rates" With all due respect, thats not much of a reason to be rude. And feeling that you can control the course of actions on a public forum is laughable at best.If you dont like what I said, dont justify it with a reply, and let it die. If you feel that it so undermines your credibility, proove you are the better man, and explain to me how my reasoning is flawed. Of course, someone with such credentials as your self shouldn't have any problem in educating a "techie wanna-be" like me.And while I'm at it - if I can so impose after supposedly tring to lure you into a debate - would you be kind enough to tell us what is in your 4 systems? Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LAHDPOP (48 posts)
Apr-17-02, 10:04 PM (EDT) 28. "RE: Frame rates" Dammit, he TOLD you it wasn't open for debate; how DARE you question him! Careful not to tick him off, or he might not give us any more one-sided, take-it-or-shut-up advice. I've gotta run, now. I'm busy ripping all the components out of my box so I can rebuild it and submit it for approval. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Would71 (123 posts)
Apr-17-02, 10:51 PM (EDT) 29. "RE: Frame rates" LAST EDITED ON Apr-17-02 AT 10:53 PM (EST)>With all due respect, thats not
>much of a reason to
>be rude. And feeling
>that you can control the
>course of actions on a
>public forum is laughable at
>best.
>
>If you dont like what I
>said, dont justify it with
>a reply, and let it
>die. If you feel
>that it so undermines your
>credibility, proove you are the
>better man, and explain to
>me how my reasoning is
>flawed. Of course, someone
>with such credentials as your
>self shouldn't have any problem
>in educating a "techie wanna-be"
>like me.
>
>And while I'm at it -
>if I can so impose
>after supposedly tring to lure
>you into a debate -
>would you be kind enough
>to tell us what is
>in your 4 systems? Somehow I knew you'd continue to be an a$$hole instead of quitting when you should have. Congrats for not disappointing. Far be it for someone such as yourself to admit you were WRONG and RUDE in ignoring my statements.. no, you'd rather turn around and try and pin it on me. Then you have your dick-sucking pal post after you going overboard with the drama-queen crap, further exacerbating matters.BTW, it has nothing to do with "credibility". It has everything to do with me not wanting to turn the thread into an even BIGGER hardware brand-war. But no, pricks like you MUST have your debate, right?That's what I get for being in any way helpful. I should know better, having dealt with pricks on the Net for 10 years now. Oh well. Want any further info? Tough sh!t. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
sniper297 (2189 posts)
Apr-17-02, 11:34 PM (EDT) 30. "RE: Frame rates" Pay attention now, Fozzy, this is an example of me being deliberately insulting.

Would71, this flame is for you!Looks like a case of the pot calling the kettle black, asshole. It's a hell of a difference between "I will not debate" to "not open for debate", everything on a public forum is open to debate. If you choose to ignore it and not debate it that's your call, but the rest of us have a right to express countering opinions to any opinion posted. Now answer this back so you can get in the last word, as usual. Dickhead. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jfroth1 (247 posts)
Apr-18-02, 09:32 PM (EDT) 31. "RE: Frame rates" LAST EDITED ON Apr-18-02 AT 09:38 PM (EST)May I add, I LIKE NVidia video cca's.
And no, NVidia sure as shavingcream doesn't pay my salary.
John Roth

edit: Would71, do you really think anyone here gives a Flying Farquhar of what your alleged expert opinion is worth? Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
nine10ths (9 posts)
Apr-19-02, 12:42 PM (EDT) 32. "RE: Frame rates" LAST EDITED ON Apr-19-02 AT 12:43 PM (EST)Well isnt this fun.... MY Pooters Better Than Yours....
On a different note... i was wondering about a Radeaon 7500 as im gonna completely rebuild system in Autumn. An before u say get the best money can buy.. money is a bit tight.. and finally am thinking about buying from USA as stuff cheaper there.. any thoughts/opinions(constructive ones plz) would be greatly appreciatedCheers
TomP.S I seem to remember a litte war called War of the Roses starting cos some on said Boddingtons was better than Theakston's Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
pestocat (17 posts)
Apr-21-02, 07:01 PM (EDT) 33. "RE: Frame rates" >in short yes.
>For a system like that an
>ideal card would be from
>a GeForce 2 GTS to
>a GeForce 3 Ti either
>200 or 500.
>I have a Duron 600 @
>1000, 256MB DDR Ram, and
>a GeForce 3 Ti200.
>I can easily pull out 25-80
>FPS.
>Hope that helps I have a Asus V7700 DDR 64MB Deluxe AGP card with Acorp 4PX266A Mainboard with 512 MB of RAM.
Operating system in WinXP ProWhat should be the framerate for the video card, I'm getting
11 to 25 typically. One problem seems that there doesn't seem to be video drivers available for XP OS. I'm using the default
drivers that comes with XP.So how good is the Asus video card.
pestocat
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Fastruck (17 posts)
May-09-02, 02:26 AM (EDT) 34. "RE: Frame rates" Hey guys what monitors size are you useing?

if its 17-20 inch it needs a higher refresh hertz rate witch mean more video power going to the monitor from the video card. Geforce TI4600 and some geforce 2s need biger monitors to refresh fast useally 85hertz is all you need but I'm running a Nividia vanta16mb at 100hertz and it is fast and if you use 60herts on a big monitor it take more time to refresh the screen. so use at least 85-72herts an youn wil see a change in performance.BTW, Im going to purcase a G4 TI4600 soon and is it really good for Modeling Locos for train sim. The reason im going to get the lastest geforce card I don't want to have something that is slower than a ati 85000 radon and also want to see what train sim and fs2002 cant really do.p.s if run a gforce 4 ti4600 you need to have it a atleast a giggahert maching.(hope this helps) I have a amd 1.2gig and thats will do it later im building a P4 2.53gig with 533mhz FSB with all the bells and wistels.
Thanks for your time and don't get fustrated with this Vid problem! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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