Copywrited materials

I currently have another post, in this forum, seeking an author of an original work. As it is increasingly apparent, that contact with him seems unlikely, I wonder if the members of the TS community might consider the following:Given that there is a fair amount of models, and other works in the library, belonging to authors who have "retired' from MSTS, gaining permission to upload repaints ( for one example ), is problematic for those attempting to do so.Also,its my understanding that current copywrite laws are enforcable for as long as the author lives, plus 50 years, unless the author indicates the works are to be considered public domain.In the absense of public domain being declared, legally, his/her works can not be released for public consumption, by other persons.Since 'retired' could imply a severance of contact with the TS community, policing of the copywrite laws would be problematic for the authors also.My question would be, is it at all possible, to place the particular files under a trusteeship? I'm thinking that the rights and wishes of the original authors could continue to be protected. Persons wishing to do repaints or other "modifications" ( subject to the authors original terms and conditions ) would have a place and person to refer to, in allowing them to move forward with their individual projects.
Granted, the state of the art in MSTS has made some serious advances in the last 3-4 years. Some items might even be considered obsolete. But there are still plenty of items, not carrying a V1.2 designation,that are still valid, and would still add to the overall enjoyment by the end users here.If it can be done, great! If not so be it. I would be interested in hearing from those of you that do produce original works, as to how you might react to the above possibility.

Paul Watson
Activity Development
Public Relations
Paint Shop

I hear my train a comin'--Jimi Hendrix

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RE: Copywrited materials, DRGWK36, Mar-01-05, 07:25 AM, (1) RE: Copywrited materials, Paul1953, Mar-02-05, 00:16 AM, (6) RE: Copywrited materials, Hack, Mar-01-05, 08:52 AM, (2) RE: Copywrited materials, jorge, Mar-01-05, 10:27 AM, (3) RE: Copywrited materials, Paul1953, Mar-02-05, 00:32 AM, (10) RE: Copywrited materials, Paul1953, Mar-02-05, 00:22 AM, (7) RE: Copywrited materials, yellowdog, Mar-04-05, 12:32 PM, (16) RE: Copywrited materials, Paul1953, Mar-06-05, 03:17 AM, (31) RE: Copywrited materials, Nels_Anderson, Mar-06-05, 11:27 AM, (35) RE: Copywrited materials, Paul1953, Mar-06-05, 03:04 PM, (36) RE: Copyrighted materials, Nels_Anderson, Mar-07-05, 09:29 AM, (37) RE: Copyrighted materials, Paul1953, Mar-07-05, 01:22 PM, (38) RE: Copywrited materials, muskokaandtahoe, Mar-01-05, 10:55 AM, (4) RE: Copywrited materials, MikeSimpson, Mar-01-05, 05:25 PM, (5) RE: Copywrited materials, Paul1953, Mar-02-05, 00:31 AM, (9) RE: Copywrited materials, brucek, Mar-03-05, 01:30 AM, (12) RE: Copywrited materials, Paul1953, Mar-04-05, 05:29 AM, (15) RE: Copywrited materials, Paul1953, Mar-02-05, 00:26 AM, (8) RE: Copywrited materials, Paul1953, Mar-03-05, 01:06 AM, (11) RE: Copywrited materials, jorge, Mar-03-05, 03:24 PM, (13) RE: Copywrited materials, Paul1953, Mar-03-05, 07:36 PM, (14) RE: Copywrited materials, NorthShore_364, Mar-04-05, 01:06 PM, (17) RE: Copywrited materials, Nels_Anderson, Mar-06-05, 11:20 AM, (34) RE: Copywrited materials, jcolbert666, Mar-05-05, 11:04 AM, (18) RE: Copywrited materials, buttercup, Mar-05-05, 11:16 AM, (19) RE: Copywrited materials, jcolbert666, Mar-05-05, 11:39 AM, (20) RE: Copywrited materials, buttercup, Mar-05-05, 12:26 PM, (21) RE: Copywrited materials, jcolbert666, Mar-05-05, 12:56 PM, (22) RE: Copywrited materials, IC7310, Mar-05-05, 01:51 PM, (23) RE: Copyrighted materials, chucksc, Mar-05-05, 04:06 PM, (24) RE: Copyrighted materials, jcolbert666, Mar-05-05, 04:28 PM, (26) RE: Copyrighted materials, chucksc, Mar-05-05, 10:00 PM, (27) RE: Copyrighted materials, mdeming, Mar-06-05, 00:07 AM, (28) RE: Copyrighted materials, Paul1953, Mar-06-05, 02:47 AM, (29) RE: Copyrighted materials, CP3084, Mar-06-05, 04:49 AM, (32) RE: Copyrighted materials, Nels_Anderson, Mar-07-05, 02:35 PM, (40) RE: Copyrighted materials, Paul1953, Mar-08-05, 01:16 AM, (43) RE: Copywrited materials, ballast, Mar-06-05, 07:00 AM, (33) RE: Copywrited materials, muskokaandtahoe, Mar-07-05, 02:10 PM, (39) RE: Copywrited materials, randycarnley, Mar-05-05, 04:16 PM, (25) RE: Copywrited materials, Paul1953, Mar-06-05, 02:55 AM, (30) RE: Copywrited materials, westerngy, Mar-07-05, 04:09 PM, (41) RE: Copywrited materials, CMO, Mar-07-05, 08:13 PM, (42) RE: Copywrited materials, Paul1953, Mar-08-05, 01:28 AM, (44)

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Keep in mind that free legal advice by a non-lawyer is worth even less than what you paid for it...But, my understanding is that the copyrighted materials are the property of the creator (or the copyright holder). Even if a person retires, dies, or is simply unresponsive, that does not change the status of the copyright. So you pretty much need to have the copyright holder's permission to do anything that's not explictly allowed. Since it's highly unlikely that anyone has anticipated the development of a trust to hold inactive creations, you're stuck with the permissions given in the documentation.The "rights and wishes" of the original authors are supposedly set forth in any documentation that accompanies the object. If there's nothing there, you can't assume that the author meant A, B, or C. I believe the default is that they retain all rights, unless there is some other overriding agreement or contract (such as work conducted while being employed by the government, in which case it's almost always public domain).Andy

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Thank you and understood. What I am suggesting, is that in the absense , permanent or otherwise, of the original author(s), that some kind of proxy be set up to administer the files on behalf of said author(s). Whether it's feasible or not, might be determined at some point. See below for the relevant section of one such Eula , where there's enough ambiguity ,that precludes the assumption, that a repainter or such, can move forward.

Paul Watson
Activity Development
Public Relations
Paint Shop

I hear my train a comin'--Jimi Hendrix

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What do the original EULAs state? I usually find the original authors want nothing more than credit and that their work not be incorporated into commercial offerings.Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.comPro Series v4.0 SuperPacks

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Exactly. It is all about what the EULA states. If it specifically states that something can't be done without permission then you are out of luck. However, a repaint that includes only the changed files might be acceptable, as the copyright for that new paintjob now rests with you, the author. It all depends on how much the repaint is based on the existing .ace file. If you started from scratch, then that copyright is solely yours and you are under no restrictions to distribute it as you see fit. The fact that it functions only with a certain model is really beside the point, right? You simply have to point people to the original model which they would have to download themselves.If you don't mind my asking, which file have you encountered which is giving you this quandry?

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Hi Jorge Please see the resonse to #2 below.

Paul Watson
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I hear my train a comin'--Jimi Hendrix

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LAST EDITED ON Mar-02-05 AT 00:23 AM (EST)

Hi Marc Heres the relevant section of the original eula from, in this example, the 250-ton crane by Mark Toland
Copyright and Distribution
--------------------------This Crane Set is released as Freeware. Copyright (C) Mark Toland WA.
dnalot@prodigy.net . As freeware you are permitted to distribute the
archive CraneSet.zip subject to the following conditions,- The archive must be distributed without modification to the
contents of the archive. Redistributing this archive with any files
added, removed or modified is prohibited.- The inclusion of any individual file from this archive in another
Archive without the prior permission of the author is prohibited.- No charge may be made for this archive other than that to cover the
cost of its distribution. If a fee is charged it must be made clear
to the purchaser that the archive is freeware and that the fee is to
cover the distributor's costs of providing the archive.- The authors' rights and wishes concerning this archive must be
respected.
The wording of the second sentence, first paragraph of the conditions, is enough to stop me in my tracks, as I would think that repaints would constitute "modified".BTW the email addy you see is no longer valid, ( or at least my server wont go thru.)

Paul Watson
Activity Development
Public Relations
Paint Shop

I hear my train a comin'--Jimi Hendrix

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The interesting thing about this EULA is that it only appears to cover the original contents of CraneSet.zip and the redistribution of said archive. So in other words, you can't modify anything in archive CraneSet.zip and then rerelease it as archive CraneSet.zip. That begs the question: "Can you modify something (i.e. the skins) of archive CraneSet.zip and release them as archive NewRepaintOfCraneSet.zip?" It sounds to me like the original author did not want his original work overwritten by any modifications. If I remember correctly, there are several reskins of this paricular crane set in the file library. Maybe check out their EULAs and see how they were able to release the reskins, i.e. did they have to contact the original author, or what? Assuming they acted legally, perhaps you could follow their lead? Or you could just release the skins as stand alones (like you said). > Copyright and Distribution
>--------------------------
>
>This Crane Set is released as Freeware. Copyright (C) Mark
>Toland WA.
>dnalot@prodigy.net . As freeware you are permitted to
>distribute the
>archive CraneSet.zip subject to the following conditions,
>
>- The archive must be distributed without modification to
>the
>contents of the archive. Redistributing this archive with
>any files
>added, removed or modified is prohibited.
>
>- The inclusion of any individual file from this archive in
>another
>Archive without the prior permission of the author is
>prohibited.
>
>- No charge may be made for this archive other than that to
>cover the
>cost of its distribution. If a fee is charged it must be
>made clear
>to the purchaser that the archive is freeware and that the
>fee is to
>cover the distributor's costs of providing the archive.
>
>- The authors' rights and wishes concerning this archive
>must be
>respected.
>
>
> The wording of the second sentence, first paragraph of the
>conditions, is enough to stop me in my tracks, as I would
>think that repaints would constitute "modified".
>
>BTW the email addy you see is no longer valid, ( or at least
>my server wont go thru.)
>
Clayton

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If I remember correctly the most current release of this set was over a year ago, quite possibly when Mark was still around. Now is a different situation, as his email is no longer valid, and according to a variety of sources he's moved on to other things. I think the skins option would have better chance of success at this time.

Paul Watson
Activity Development
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Paint Shop

I hear my train a comin'--Jimi Hendrix

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Since I'm the one most often called upon to judge these things, let me throw in my 2 cents worth.I believe you are mis-interpreting that statement. What's being referred to is this one single archive ("archive" means this one zip file). In other words, you cannot modify this exact model and redistribute it. The intention of this paragraph is to prevent people from stealing something, and re-releasing it as their own. It's also intended to prevent others from tampering with the archive (i.e., web sites inserting their advertisements as new additional files inside the original zip).By the way, the EULA you've quoted is simply a modified version of the boilerplate that we provide in our tips for uploaders; see the original here:http://www.flightsim.com/terms.htmFor anyone not familiar with our tips, read the whole thing here:http://www.flightsim.com/dev-tips.htm

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Thanks Nels for the clarification. What are your thoughts on my suggestion found below?

Paul Watson
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I hear my train a comin'--Jimi Hendrix

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You have a lot of posts in this thread...which one "below" specifically?

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found in 29 which is the first post re-worded

Paul Watson
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I hear my train a comin'--Jimi Hendrix

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Life of the creator plus 75 years. The law says too bad if you can't find him or her.Check out http://eldred.cc/ for more on copyright problems and what's going on to fix them. For instance, the U.S. Copyright Office is asking for public input right now on how to deal with orphaned works.Dave Nelson, SLW Designer, Cal-P Route

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This of course brings us to the question as to why would anyone upload a model and not want it to be used?Personally I just use whatever I download (some of these were downloaded years ago, the authors could even be dead) - I feel the chance that someone might notice one of their models being used (long after they have left the community) are slight. And the chances that the author is a lawyer or someone with enough money to bring an international copyright action even slighter.Mike

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Hi MikeYes I agree the chances are slight. But because they are not absolute, and because I also represent a sim group that depends upon other authors original works in order to function, I cannot take that chance. I would prefer to explore as many avenues as possible. At the end of the day, if I cannot resolve this, then I could only keep my work to myself.

Paul Watson
Activity Development
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Paint Shop

I hear my train a comin'--Jimi Hendrix

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Quote:-At the end of the day, if I cannot resolve this, then I could only keep my work to myself.Sorry, but something is forcing me to utter "Rubbish!" to this line of reasoning.To quote (although somewhat out of context, but it's a great quote, all-the-same) the late Arthur Wellesley (Duke of Wellington), "Publish, and be damned!"In other words, just publish the pixels, giving credit to the originator, and concern yourself with the consequences should said originator come back from the dead and raise an objection.Bruce

AustRail

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http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID8/6354.html
I rest my case

Paul Watson
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I hear my train a comin'--Jimi Hendrix

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Thanks Dave, appreciated the info.

Paul Watson
Activity Development
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I hear my train a comin'--Jimi Hendrix

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and further more....

Paul Watson
Activity Development
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Paint Shop

I hear my train a comin'--Jimi Hendrix

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What is wrong with distributing your modified/repainted file(s) as a new archive BY ITSELF (therefore not infringing the wishes of the author to have the original archive modified without permission), and make your archive additions which need to be made to the original archive which must be downloaded in its entirety?i.e. Your directions could state.1. Go download the original archive.2. Replace the contents of the original archive with these modified files included in my archive.Does this not respect the authors wishes that the original archive is not modified? In essense, you not creating a stand-alone archive that does not depend on the original would seem to solve most of the issues. The modified files are useless unless you download the original. Does anybody object to this line or reasoning?

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Of course, skins only. That should work.

Paul Watson
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I hear my train a comin'--Jimi Hendrix

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Quote from readme of 3 bay PS2 hopper by Trouble Pryor:"This model is released as Freeware, Copyright 2001 Trouble Pryor. You may redistribute the files in this archive as freeware only, as long as appropriate credit is given to the parties involved in its creation (Trouble Pryor and Chris Lee)."So does that mean I don't have to request permission from those two provided that I credit them for the original work? I've had some problems contacting them.

Founding Member of the No Patch SP and SSW Locomotives Club

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Yes, that's how I would interpret it. The permission you need is given right there in that statement, just as long as you follow the required terms (must stay freeware, must credit original authors).

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That may well be. One thing that I have yet to see anybody else say in any of these useless discussions about copyright law vis-a-vis custom objects in msts is that it's all much ado about nothing. So long as you're not somehow making money off of somebody else's stuff, do whatever you want with it. The reason that I say this, and nobody seems to want to mention, is that copyright enforcement is the sole responsibility of the copyright holder. If someone thinks you are ripping off their copyright they first need to hire a lawyer, prove it in court and then prove that they've somehow been damaged in some tangible way by it. If you are simply re-skinning some model of theirs and uploading it to the file library, the only harm you are causing them is to their fragile ego and that won't cut it.My advice, forget about the guy that made the original model, give him credit for making it in your faq file or whatever you call it, and quit wasting your time trying to find him. If it's a lawsuit that you're worried about, I'm quite certain that's not going to happen. I understand that you want to be polite and everything like that but too many people on here have no idea what they are talking about with all of this of discussion of copyright law.

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Sounds like a good way to get talented model builders to stop making models for the sim. But who cares how many talented people we alienate.Regards,Eric

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You missed my point. I'll be the first to admit that claiming someone else's work as yours is bad manners -as well as bad karma, all this discussion of copyright law by people on here is for the most part a huge waste of time.

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You may have missed mine. Using someone else's work without their permission (with or without credit) when they have asked that you get it before doing so is a good way to stop that person from creating more models for the sim.In that context, whether the item is copyrighted or not is immaterial.Regards,Eric

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While I would certainly agree with you on that, I don't think that a person has a reason to get upset if someone makes an honest and legitimate attempt to request their permission only to be unable to contact them.A hypothetical situation:You have a neighbor, Tom, who lives directly behind you. Your two friends, Dick and Harry (short for Harriet), live across the street from Tom. All of you live in the very middle of your respective blocks. Naturally the shortest way to Dick and Harry's place is through Tom's yard. Tom doesn't mind you cutting through his yard, just so long as you stop and (ask him permission/tell him) on your way to see Dick and Harry. The only problem is, on the rare occasions that Tom is actually home, he's either passed out drunk or else he's hiding out in his basement watching t.v., listening to the stereo with volume up to 11, surfing the internet via his dial-up connection all while doing his laundry at the same time. In other words, no matter how much you bang on the door, he's not going to hear you.The question then becomes, do I just go ahead and cut through the last fifty feet of his yard or do I go back and walk all of the way around the block to avoid upsetting Tom? Tom said it was okay, so long as I told him. But the problem is Tom is incommunicado at the moment. What reason would Tom have to get upset if you just left him a note that you tried to ask him but he couldn't hear you down in the basement?

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Ask Pete Willard about this and see what he has to say.

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LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-05 AT 04:30 PM (EST)

And some of us "Idiots" have actually retained attorneys to protect our "fragile Egos" from egregious theives....FWIW, it's not just you we go after but any site distributing your work and sometimes they have deeper pockets than you do....
The usual drill there is they will pull your distribution and sometimes ban you to prevent the original author coming after them....And yes ask about Pete and see why a very talented designer withdrew from the general community because of Theft....And if you think we're tough, just go after any of Kurt Kaminer's stuff without permission (Let the rest of us know 1st so we can set up the bleachers and get the pop corn and soda out).....You'll note that person advocating piracy is a non-contributor....Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO
P.S. appros pros of nothing Mssr jcolbert666 one wonders who you really are since you have only 4 posts and no contact information or real name - in my mind anonymous posting only belongs on kiddie porn boards not here and given the past conduct of a disproportionate number of trolls who hide behind anonymous post????64.126.90.178
Record Type: IP Address
Everest Connections, LLC EVEREST-BLK1 (NET-64-126-0-0-1)
64.126.0.0 - 64.126.127.255
Everest Broadband EVEREST-KSLECMTS-1 (NET-64-126-64-0-1)
64.126.64.0 - 64.126.95.255
Address: The Everest Building
One Executive Drive
Fort Lee, New Jersey 07024 Established in 1999, Everest Broadband Networks is a leader in today's Multi-tenant Broadband Service Provider (MBSP) marketplace. Catering to small to mid-sized business tenants that occupy multi-tenant buildings and hotel properties focusing on the business traveler. Everest brings advanced telecommunications services including guaranteed high-speed Internet, local and long distance telephone service and critical web applications. Everest delivers these services over a state-of-the-art Metropolitan Ethernet service architecture.

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Name me one instance (at least parties, preferably w/case #) in any jurisdiction in the english-speaking world where someone actually filed a suit against someone else, claiming copyright infringement for reskinning a freeware/shareware/free-to-download model and subsequently redistributing said model as freeware/shareware/free-to-download without attributing proper credit to the original creator. Name just one instance. Scary, threatening letters from a lawyer don't count.

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LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-05 AT 10:06 PM (EST)

I haven't needed to go to court, yet!Scary threatening letters from lawyers to the thief and the ISP who will almost always pull the distribution and ban the thief work!But if you're feeling lucky why don't you commit the acts which you are encouraging others to do, instead of merely encouraging or suborning illegal activity???? and we can sure try it out on you if you'd like! In fact for real fun and as a true test of what you advocating you could use the UP copyrighted Logos with out permission... Just give me a little while to get out the Chips and beer and setup the lawn chairs 1st so we can watch....Or do you only advocate criminal and illegal civil activities for others????? Which I personally would guess based on your anonymity here!And based on your posts here if I ever do find out you are an attorney as you seem to imply you and I will be having a heart to heart talk with your local Bar's ethics or professional conduct committee (or whatever it's called)....Have a nice day!Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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Another useful topic. Reading both sides explains why I am loathe to upload anything to this sight.

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LAST EDITED ON Mar-06-05 AT 03:26 AM (EST)

When I first came to this community,3 years ago, I noticed straight away, that there seemed to be established protocols , unwritten, but at least understood by most users, that out of courtesy, you would make every attempt to contact an original author, for his/her permission to use their materials in a project of your own making. The minutae of copyright law, while important, has a bearing on this insofar as, I would think, most of us would not make an assumption, just because the author is no longer around , that you could use their materials as is your want. My original point to this was, in the absence of the original author(s) is it at all possible, to set up something by proxie , or in trust, to ensure that the original authors' rights are protected, while giving those of us a chance at painting, ( your specialty here ), etc. Sort of an advocate's office, if you will, and still subject to the original authors terms and conditions There are after , what? 4 years, new people coming into this MSTS world, who won,t get the opportunity, to play around with materials dating back to the begining. Consider the works of those individuals, or indeed, some of the organised groups out here that wont be here eventually. Does that mean automatically, their material becomes hands-off? By law it would, so again I suggest an alternative. As a courtesy to those no longer around, whose works we might further enjoy,could we have a separate area in the library for these works, so that we could have some recourse, at the very least an option, without risk , from a legal standpoint, of somewhere to make application for permission to use these works in our projects?
( pauses to breathe! )

If Nels would agree to yet another part of the library to be set up for this purpose, I would volunteer my time to help administer it, perhaps others might also. Consider other more mundane uses. Groups could use it as a clearing house for unsupported files they might like to be rid of, freeing up space at their own sites. Those who know they are leaving could make arrangements to have their files moved to this catagory ( call it a Dead File, kind like Dead Letter at the post office! ). I'm sure those with an interest in this topic, will have better ideas, on how to do this.I await your opinions

Paul Watson
Activity Development
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Paint Shop

I hear my train a comin'--Jimi Hendrix

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Paul,I do understand where you are coming from. Within reason I do agree it is a good idea.Unfortunately there are those that at least a few times in the past made assumptions either here, or elsewhere that, when something was done. Then released en masse that it was fair game. There was an issue with an original piece of work I did then when it was removed from the site which I allowed it to be hosted at, there was a licence agreement that stated that the original model was free to distribute. Being that the artwork was mine, when permission was granted by the original modeller for "the site" to host works that were originally hosted there, that it included my items. That was brought to a head by a lack of following up. Even with members of "the site" requesting for me to reconsider I still said no. Only reason being that assumptions were made and the site owners jumping the gun by making those assumptions without properly attempting to find all authors involved.Many may not be here on Train Sim, some are, its best to check first. It saves alot of headaches in the long run.Jon

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What we have here is a good, common-sense, approach to a difficult situation. Unfortunately, common sense and the letter of the law don't agree.>> at the very least an option, without risk, from a legal standpoint,What you suggest is a reasonable option, but I would have to disagree that it is "without risk" from a legal standpoint. From the discussion I think most agree and understand that a copyright once placed on a design is valid and is in effect for a very long time (essentially forever, since the length of validity is far beyond length of time a train-sim design will have any usefullness). Thus, the legal risk stands should any copyright holder whose work is added to this "Dead File" and is used against the original terms of copyright. I don't see any way of avoiding this, no matter how much we might wish it so.

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I guess the best we might hope for, would be for those retiring in the future, that might agree to past works becoming public domain. I have know idea whether or not this might happen. Regarding the suggestion above about skins, i do remember when this was common practise out here. Perhaps its an idea whose time has come....againThanks Nels and to all who answered, I leave this post to exile on page 2!

Paul Watson
Activity Development
Public Relations
Paint Shop

I hear my train a comin'--Jimi Hendrix

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>The only problem is, on the rare
>occasions that Tom is actually home, he's either passed out
>drunk or else he's hiding out in his basement watching t.v.,
>listening to the stereo with volume up to 11, ROTFLMAO, do you know me, im that guy LOL!only prob is, my stereo only goes to 10! but she pumps out over 200 watts, classic pioneer technics, huge system, tweaked for amps and huge speakers too.
and im usually drunk also.........hi neighbour!patto

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LAST EDITED ON Mar-07-05 AT 02:14 PM (EST)

> The question then becomes, do I just go ahead and cut through the last fifty feet of his yard or do I go back and walk all of the way around the block to avoid upsetting Tom? Tom said it was okay, so long as I told him. But the problem is Tom is incommunicado at the moment.The ethics of the question are simple: is the integrity of your word (as given to Tom) more or less important than than the inconvenience of walking around the block?For copyright, there are no firm guidelines as to what a court will decide to do on a copyright case. One consideration is money, with the more of it involved, the better for the plaintiff. Obviously freeware fails on this count and that tends to move the issue away from courts and into issues of ethics. Not always, but it does lean that way.So, closing the loop, by accepting and using a downloaded freeware (or commercial) fileset, you have effectively given your word that you will abide by the terms of the author. So again, is your word more ar less important than the self-centered satisfaction we all get from moving a file into the file library -- an especially juicy question when it's an altered version of someone elses work? I dunno what your answer might be and I'm not going to suggest one. I'm simply trying to throw a bit of light on the true nature of the issue.Dave Nelson, SLW Designer, Cal-P Route

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Sorry, I could not find your e-mail address. Do you mind if I release a four pack of renumbered CEFX locos. The original model is your loco CEFX 3092 found here in the library.I've been working on a little project of recreating all the locos used on one of my favorite shortlines the Alabama and Gulf coast Railway. The new units are numbered CEFX 3398, 3962, 3771, and 3917. Thanks for any input

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LAST EDITED ON Mar-06-05 AT 03:22 AM (EST)

Hi Randy, by all means, go ahead, and you have mail

Paul Watson
Activity Development
Public Relations
Paint Shop

I hear my train a comin'--Jimi Hendrix

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Well back from 4 days of railfanning and guess what up comes the copyright questions again.
With Nels answering some questions I have one of my own and thats why is the same question brought up by someone who hides behind a faceless name.You wonder why many have left the hobby well just read through this post and do a search for other posts pertaining to copyright.Just Rollin Down The Tracks

Dale

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I read an awful lot of misconceptions about copyright law in this discussion.
Copyright notice is no longer required.
Copyright exists from the moment of reduction to some reproducible form.
Copyright infringement is both a civil and criminal matter.
Attorney's fees are paid by the infringer, so attorneys often take copyright cases because they are entitled to their fees from the infringer.
If the original work is used to make a derivitave work (like adding differnet paint) the original work is still infringed, but if you simply point someone to the original, and say go download that, and then add these new textures, does the derivitave work infringe? Don't know beccause of a special circumstance - in this area, new textures are common and accepted. And that is not true in most of the copyright areas.
Just some thoughts.

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LAST EDITED ON Mar-08-05 AT 01:31 AM (EST)

I have tried to explain that this is not about copyright law. This is about having alternatives in place for those wishing to utilise copyright-protected materials belonging to those who are no longer around.

My whole point, was about establishing a mechanism, whereby, if you were intersted in repainting a model, done by someone no longer available, you could have recourse, to apply for permission to use said materials from a source, responsible for maintaining the rights of the original authors. This would apply to freeware only. Unfortunately, the discussions above keep moving off tangently. Thankfully, the "Voice of Reason" (Hi Nels! ) has weighed in with his opinions, that conclude this thread insofar as I personally am concerned. If anything I am grateful for the dialogues Ive had, and even though far more people have read this thread, than answered, hopefully this will have answered some of their concerns as well.

Paul Watson
Activity Development
Public Relations
Paint Shop

I hear my train a comin'--Jimi Hendrix

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