Talking about being THOROUGH

Purchased a good looking route recently and investigating it in more detail found these awful looking switches, albeit causing no derailments and also realised that none of the Manual switches would move their blades in EXPLORE ACTIVITY Mode nor in Activities !The trackbeds have been changed so as not to give a clue as to what route it is, until I get an explanation from either it's creators or distributor, the latter I purchased another copy from to make sure the first one I got from the creators was not just an isolated case. A friend also running it confirms that his version also has these flaws.What would your reaction be ?O t t o

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Talking about being THOROUGH [View All], OTTODAD, 09:16 AM, Feb-11-05, (0) Possibility #1: JNodePosn, Steven, Feb-11-05, 12:01 PM, (1) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, OTTODAD, Feb-11-05, 12:59 PM, (2) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, USRailFan, Feb-11-05, 01:38 PM, (3) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, Steven, Feb-11-05, 02:43 PM, (4) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, john finney, Feb-11-05, 03:58 PM, (5) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, Steven, Feb-11-05, 05:15 PM, (7) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, OTTODAD, Feb-11-05, 09:43 PM, (11) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, OTTODAD, Feb-12-05, 09:13 AM, (14) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, Vince, Feb-11-05, 04:53 PM, (6) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, OTTODAD, Feb-11-05, 06:51 PM, (8) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, Vince, Feb-11-05, 07:47 PM, (9) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, OTTODAD, Feb-11-05, 09:28 PM, (10) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, USRailFan, Feb-12-05, 02:07 AM, (12) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, OTTODAD, Feb-12-05, 08:52 AM, (13) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, TimCourt, Feb-12-05, 10:24 AM, (15) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, OTTODAD, Feb-12-05, 10:57 AM, (16) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, JohnCS, Feb-12-05, 11:07 AM, (17) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, OTTODAD, Feb-12-05, 11:29 AM, (18) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, kmanc21, Feb-12-05, 11:48 AM, (19) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, OTTODAD, Feb-12-05, 12:51 PM, (20) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, westerngy, Feb-12-05, 01:24 PM, (21) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, sinclair97, Feb-12-05, 01:51 PM, (23) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, OTTODAD, Feb-12-05, 03:32 PM, (27) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, sinclair97, Feb-12-05, 01:39 PM, (22) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, OTTODAD, Feb-12-05, 04:45 PM, (31) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, USRailFan, Feb-12-05, 02:08 PM, (24) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, OTTODAD, Feb-12-05, 03:15 PM, (25) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, TimCourt, Feb-12-05, 03:31 PM, (26) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, OTTODAD, Feb-12-05, 03:56 PM, (29) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, drjoe, Feb-12-05, 03:45 PM, (28) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, OTTODAD, Feb-12-05, 04:33 PM, (30) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, USRailFan, Feb-12-05, 05:50 PM, (35) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, OTTODAD, Feb-12-05, 06:03 PM, (36) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, USRailFan, Feb-12-05, 06:05 PM, (37) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, OTTODAD, Feb-12-05, 06:22 PM, (41) RE: Possibility #1: JNodePosn, adamb, Feb-12-05, 06:13 PM, (39) Fixing the bad Switch!, Steven, Feb-12-05, 05:16 PM, (32) RE: Fixing the bad Switch!, OTTODAD, Feb-12-05, 05:34 PM, (33) RE: Fixing the bad Switch!, TimCourt, Feb-12-05, 05:46 PM, (34) RE: Fixing the bad Switch!, TimCourt, Feb-12-05, 06:12 PM, (38) RE: Fixing the bad Switch!, OTTODAD, Feb-12-05, 06:30 PM, (42) RE: Fixing the bad Switch!, OTTODAD, Feb-12-05, 06:16 PM, (40) RE: Fixing the bad Switch!, chucksc, Feb-13-05, 00:34 AM, (57) RE: Talking about being THOROUGH, NW_611, Feb-12-05, 06:37 PM, (43) RE: Talking about being THOROUGH, OTTODAD, Feb-12-05, 06:48 PM, (44) RE: Talking about being THOROUGH, sinclair97, Feb-12-05, 06:54 PM, (45) RE: Talking about being THOROUGH, dgauci, Feb-12-05, 07:38 PM, (46) RE: Talking about being THOROUGH, CPR_Malice_96th, Feb-12-05, 08:08 PM, (47) RE: Talking about being THOROUGH, OTTODAD, Feb-12-05, 08:29 PM, (48) RE: Talking about being THOROUGH, jorge, Feb-12-05, 10:14 PM, (49) RE: Talking about being THOROUGH, dgauci, Feb-12-05, 11:06 PM, (50) RE: Talking about being THOROUGH, thenudehamster, Feb-12-05, 11:48 PM, (51) RE: Talking about being THOROUGH, mdeming, Feb-13-05, 00:16 AM, (56) RE: Talking about being THOROUGH, Spin, Feb-13-05, 00:39 AM, (58) RE: Talking about being THOROUGH, jorge, Feb-12-05, 11:58 PM, (53) RE: Talking about being THOROUGH, dgauci, Feb-13-05, 00:16 AM, (55) RE: Talking about being THOROUGH, luckeydoug1, Feb-12-05, 11:53 PM, (52) RE: Talking about being THOROUGH, seank97, Feb-13-05, 00:07 AM, (54) RE: Talking about being THOROUGH, westerngy, Feb-13-05, 01:06 AM, (59)

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OttoThis possibility also assumes that the switch shape has been animated correctly. Anyway I have noticed that switches/points in my own route that do not move are missing the JNodePosn line the world file definition for that section. Editing and replacing the missing line fixes the errant problem. Whether it has the line or not, the train will follow the indicated path but it doesn't look right. }> Bad definition:
TrackObj (
UiD ( 85 )
SectionIdx ( 29054 )
Elevation ( 0 )
CollideFlags ( 551 )
FileName ( A1tPnt10d150rLftMnl.s )
StaticFlags ( 00200180 )
Position ( -157.209 10.3635 -554.669 )
QDirection ( 0 -0.411933 0 0.911214 )
VDbId ( 4294967294 )
)Proper definition:
TrackObj (
UiD ( 85 )
SectionIdx ( 29054 )
Elevation ( 0 )
JNodePosn ( -12034 14800 -157.209 10.3635 -554.669 )
CollideFlags ( 551 )
FileName ( A1tPnt10d150rLftMnl.s )
StaticFlags ( 00200180 )
Position ( -157.209 10.3635 -554.669 )
QDirection ( 0 -0.411933 0 0.911214 )
VDbId ( 4294967294 )
)JNodePosn definition:
JNodePosn ( -12034 14800 -157.209 10.3635 -554.669 )
-12034 14800 - this is the world file it is located in (its the world filename you are editing).
-157.209 10.3635 -554.669 - notice that this matches the Position () of the shape.None of this changes the fact that its an ugly looking crossover!
StevenStandardized \global\tsection.dat file now at build #27.

LMRR - Lower Mainland Railways (of BC)
Track: 1505.89 km
Roads: 1220.08 km

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-11-05 AT 01:03 PM (EST)

Thanks Steven !Not that your fix will be able to do much good ! Having replaced one of these weird looking switches and it's blades move as they should, I can not go back into the RE to do some more "fixing", "Send, do not send..." ! This one was not covered by interactive objects or signalling but most of the others are ! I am not going to replace all these odd looking switches for them and doing so having to rebuild much of the route's tracks and it's interactive objects on them, it's not that exciting a route, but pretty ! This might be a task even somebody like Mike Vone could find difficult to achieve ? All switches in the route are "Manual" and none move their blades. How in darnation did they manage to screw all of them up ?I think what we need is really independent, unbiased reviews of PAYWARE routes like somebody else suggested, to give guys who can not really afford wasting their money a choice before buying them.Take Care, O t t o.P.S.: These are supposed to be a switches, listed as A1t870r4drgt !

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Isn't that from Xtracks?
'cause I've got that file on my machine too, with no other extra track add-ons but X-tracks 3.12, Y-tracks and ScaleRail

Leiv Eiriksson was first - Christoffer Columbus used a Viking map!

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OttoYou don't have to be in the RE to add the JNodePosn line to the world file. I'm not sure why the line gets dropped from the world file definition, but I suspect its something to do with tdb rebuild failures.You can edit the world files with wordpad and manually add the line where needed. I may be guessing but I think you will find that all of the point definitions in the route will have that line missing.Different question, do the trains move smoothly through the turnout? This would indicate that the shape file was made with incorrect "values".
StevenStandardized \global\tsection.dat file now at build #27.

LMRR - Lower Mainland Railways (of BC)
Track: 1505.89 km
Roads: 1220.08 km

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I have a route where the track is not together just like the picture
switch points are ok though, can track like that be fixed?

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JohnYes this can be fixed, it's a matter of creating a new switch shape that matches the trackshape definition in the \GLOBAL\tsecton.dat file. Once made it can be copied into the \GLOBAL\SHAPES\ folder and everything will be fine. There is no need to touch the route at all.
StevenStandardized \global\tsection.dat file now at build #27.

LMRR - Lower Mainland Railways (of BC)
Track: 1505.89 km
Roads: 1220.08 km

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O.K. Steven, so I edited all the World files of that route and it now has all switches working as they should and the available path is correctly shown through entry and exit switches of a crossover. Having UltraEdit-32 helps ! I wonder whether I should offer that fix to the creators who so far have not bothered to reply to my report ? I give them a few more days to explain before I let the cat out of the bag, some of you I bet can guess it's name already ! Thanks again for your help, more learned ! I bet that this is also the problem with this switch coming out the Default NEC Philadelphia station, refusing to move it's blades, which has annoyed me from the day I run my new MSTS for the first time, ! Take Care, O t t o.

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Hi Steven !Although being able to insert the missing JNodePosn ( ... ) lines into all uncompressed World tiles there was a problem running the route with the uncompressed tiles even before editing a single one, multiple error messages appearing on loading the route about a Shape file missing, which it did not before uncompressing the tiles.It refers to a shortened file name of the Semaphore signals being used in the route which can not be found in the World tiles, Route Riter not missing it either and creating one did not fool MSTS ! I thought I could fix that too and did not mention it before, being able to ignore all these messages and eventually go into the route to check that the switches were working alright.Trying to compress the World tiles again many would not, leaving the route in shambles.It's now time for me to reveal the name of the route, having given it an initial good report before checking all of it out in detail, for which I apologise if I have tempted some into buying it.It is the SEVERN VALLEY RAILWAY.It seems there is nothing anybody can do to repair these flaws in the track system and I shall have to bin the two copies I have purchased.Another lesson learned about not judging a book by it's cover !!! Take Care, O t t o.

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-11-05 AT 04:59 PM (EST)

Hi OttO,Is not a A1t870r4drgt one of the default shapes? Reason I ask is at the one place I used them on the NEC4 was at the Ragan Interlocking (3 miles south of Wilmington) and they too exhibit the same symptoms of visual uglyness. I'd love to convert the route to X & Y Tracks but the thought of removing all the interactives stopped me cold.
I'll wait for TMTS, convert the route then use THEIR editor to replace the track, hopefully, if the TMTS editor can handle track changes after interactives. hope, hope...

Regards,
Vince Cockeram
Author: NECv4 Route;
Now enjoyed by over 10,000 Train Simmers!

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-11-05 AT 06:57 PM (EST)

Yes Vince, that's the one ! They are not too difficult to replace with 5° switches in the RE, but like you said, interactives being in place it would be a nightmare having to do that in a route the size of yours ! Would be easy if, like Steven says, there where corrected replacement switches for them, like we got with the 5° and 10° versions.Yes Steven, it's not that difficult to uncompress all W with the Route Riter and add that JnodePosn line you show in the World tiles where required. Shall have a go trying it, although there are quite a few of them ! Trains run smoothly through these weird switches, even where the track is way out of line !Take Care, O t t o.P.S.: I keep pestering Tim Court, one of the Chief Architects of the TMTS, to make sure that we get a better track system than we have in MSTS now, including all switches variations provided by Xtracks, Y-Tracks, loops and circles and hope that this example of tracks in a route he was involved in was just something he would like to forget ?

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OttO,A while back didn't you call attention to or post an .ace file replacement that gave a prototype look for the default switches with correct frogs and wing rails? As I remember it was for the manual switches only but was only a single .ace file replace and it fixed all the 10 degree manual switches on a route.
This could also be done for the 5 degree. Any idea who released the .ace file for the 10 degree switches?

Regards,
Vince Cockeram
Author: NECv4 Route;
Now enjoyed by over 10,000 Train Simmers!

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Hi Vince !The Xtracks-3.12 has now all 5° and 10° switches with proper frog wing and check rails in both Automatic and Manual versions !Here is the 5° Manual and in the pictures replying to Steven is a shot of the 10° Manual.Take Care, O t t o.

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I believe it was I that posted about the replacement switches by Dick Cowen, available in the file library as dc-pnt01.zip and dc-pnt02.zip - I think they replace both the manual and automatic switches. They seem to have a problem with the texture mapping, though

Leiv Eiriksson was first - Christoffer Columbus used a Viking map!

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Yes, it was you, Ole, who mentioned Dick Cowen's replacements not so long ago.However his frog check rails are not in the right place and too short.http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID6/13029.html#4O t t o

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Thank you otto for your detailed analysis, I am actually proud of the other acheivements in SVR, I have not built a route since due to 18 months work going ito SVR.Being one of the "Chief Architects of TMTS" My skills must be brought into doubt, I do try to give my best for this community, dedicating more time to it than I do my personla life on many occasions, I can take criticism like anyone alse but after a while you feel as though you may as well give up.Now I am debating wether I actually have the skills to continue the work with TMTS and wether I should "Throw in the towel" and pass the mantle on to someone who more fits the bill to tell you the truth.After 4 years of being a developer for MSTS and recieveing countless "i can do better" emails after every release despite showing loads of screenshots etc.. and putting stuff through beta testing I think it migh be time I bowed graciously and stepped off the plate.

Member of the Royal Guild of Route Builders

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-12-05 AT 11:13 AM (EST)

No that's not the way for talented people to react, Tim !What they should do is to take suggestions for improvements on board and work on them, learn from mistakes, providing they have the ability to do so which I am sure you have ! You will get much of this sort from BETA testers if they are the sort to have a really good look at your work and are not put off by pointing at the wrinkles ! What I was hoping to get from SEVERN VALLEY RAILWAY Support, I E-mailed over a week ago, was some sort of reasonable explanation I can live with and that would have been that. But how all these JNodePosn lines can disappear is something which has not been achieved on that scale before !

Battling with the MSTS limitations is one problem which should not exist with a new Train Sim you have a say in it's development, as long as old bad MSTS habits are not being carried forward and colleagues in your team are of the same calibre as you are.My Accounting Software has not so much been criticised during the 20 years of it maturing, that kind of software either works or it does not, but have been constantly filing away at it, incorporating valid improvement suggestions from my clients. NASA did not abort their efforts to reach distant planets after some of their engineers got their calculations wrong, one lot working with metric and the others with imperial measures, sending the spaceship way off course ! No Tim, you hang in there and give it the best you can but try to avoid getting involved in situations where you could get out of your depth and if you are sinking, SCREAM FOR HELP ! Ralf Schölke of the WUPPER-EXPRESS got fed up with negative comments some time ago, threatening to pack it in, changed his mind and listening to suggestions raised the Overhead of the WUPPER-8 to match that of most of the European rolling stock and created the STADTBAHN-U79, in my humble opinion both Masterpieces !I have been criticised for my opinions many times here in this forum, getting it wrong occasionally and if valid, change my ways ! Does not put me off trying to help others in my limited way !Take Care, O t t o.

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-12-05 AT 11:17 AM (EST)

"It's now time for me to reveal the name of the route, having given it an initial good report before checking all of it out in detail, for which I apologise if I have tempted some into buying it."Oh my gosh! Severn Valley used a piece of default KUJU track? Whats the world comming to? We need to coordinate a mass protest march on BlueArrow's headquarters, stage a bonfire where we can all burn our SV cd's, write letters to the editor ...Im sure the thousands of people who have thoroughly enjoyed their copy of Severn Valley - marveling at the beautiful scenery, detailed equipment and realistic recreation of actual locations - will feel utterly betrayed now that this switch has been found.Course lets see what other options they had:
A) use a different KUJU track piece - requiring a totally different geometry at the locations, rendering them less able to faithfully recreate the actual track layouts. Sounds like a less accurate route to me.
B) Use XTracks or other replacement track system - Aside from the fact they're freeware and difficult/impossible to license there's the tsection.dat issue - look at the issues many are encountering now (Cascades Crossing for one) which can all be traced back to the massive standardized tsection.dat. Don't forget the poor unsuspecting user working on his own route, which gets corrupted after installing the new route cause he didn't know how to Horace it. IMHO standardized tsection is not a viable alternative for mass-market commercial projects.
C) Replace the default kuju model - tinkering with the global files just isn't good business. Changing items which affect EVERY route in a person's install is just as likely to make something else look worse (see road replacements & VScale's A&O sub). Bad idea.
D) Alias the world file to a different model - not a bad idea assuming one can build a better switch model. Too bad no-one publically shared how to do that (I didn't) until almost after the release of SV.None of this changes the fact that Severn Valley is a true masterpiece in every measure, one of which Tim and the other developers should be deservedly proud. The many glowing reviews and hundreds of positive comments around the net seem to concur.Its time we get a grip here folks!BTW the RE WILL eat JNodePos entries, and it does it world-tiles at a time, not just for single switches. I don't believe the source of the non-throwing switches via JNodePos has been identified till recently. I guess when they saw the problem & couldn't find the fix they should have just reformated the HD & started over, huh?JohnCS

http://www.digital-rails.com

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You are missing the main point I am making, John and that is that none of the switches work visibly, something I have not come across in any of the other routes I have either purchased or downloaded, apart from the original Default MSTS NEC.An engineer driving a loco would expect to see where he is heading, real live locos not having "Switch Indicators" " ! What would SURFLINER customers say if it's ScaleRail switches can not be moved visibly, albeit having the odd one like the Double-Slip coming out of LA. I don't know what your priorities are with Train Sims, but mine are foremost realistic rolling stock running on realistic tracks, I said "On" and not "Below" or "Above", all of which working visibly as they should.Paying to get anything less than that is a waste of money to me.I intended to invest heavily in KUJU when MSTS-2 was on the cards and intended to so with other new Train Sim developments but so far have not seen anything which could tempt me doing so !O t t o

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Just my 2 cents here. Get a grip people - this is a game (make all the arguments about it being a simulator, but if it were each of us would have full scale cabs in our houses with all the electronics and hydraulics required - at an investment of hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of dollars. NOT!!!!!) and some folks take it way to serious. Do I want as realistic roadbed, track, rolling stock, etc? Of course I do, but I realize that comprmise is necessary to keep this an affordable hobby. Let's give all the route developers (free and pay ware, activity creators, reskinners, etc. a big thank you and appreciate that this game has provided many, myself included, hours of enjoyment and being able, for most of us, to fulfill childhood dreams of being a railroad engineer.Ken

Moving America one virtual train at a time.

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-12-05 AT 12:53 PM (EST)

Ken, what you and John say is reasonable, but I am sure that John would not want to get a bad press for his DEMEX, MOSAIC or JUMPER not doing what they should, the latter a very useful tool I got myself.But it does not take long to fix what is fixable, as I have done in under an hour, results shown in my post #11 and I am an amateur compared to them. Unless they too found as I did that things have gone past the point of repair, due to other problems which crept in during development.Now if BLUE ARROW TS had given me a good reason I would have gone away and not mentioned a thing. Not getting one I started investigating and don't feel bad about passing my findings on to my friends in the forum. What they do about it is their affair ! O t t o

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Jezzz one can only sit back and wonder.I think I'm going to lay all the mainline track and yard track then send the route to Otto for the switches.
As was pointed out with the Surfliner take the problem you have with a route to the builders and if this bugs you so much Otto then just wipe it clean of your computer.Just Rollin Down The Tracks

Dale

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To be fair Dale Otto did take it to the builders and failed to get a response, after which point he--not unreasonably--responded in a logical legitimate way: he took it to the forum from which I and others again learn something new.we ought not to be intimidated into acquiescence and complacency over sloppy procedure of MSTS routes for fear of being punished in not having anything? Mike

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Hi Dale !> I think I'm going to lay all the mainline track and yard track then send the
>route to Otto for the switchesMight not be a bad idea ! Frank Carver did that with the MARIAS-KOOTENAI I added a lot to, including 6 x 3000 meter Wyes and a few missing nodes, Eduardo Urcolo also had some help, Roman got tutorials for his Y-Tracks from me and some of their users specific advice from me. Another guy is doing it right now, sending me the route he is working on to have a look at the tracks. > As was pointed out with the Surfliner take the problem you have with a route to
> the builders and if this bugs you so much Otto then just wipe it clean of your computer. Took it up with Mike Hambly, no response and yes the SURFLINER and the 2 copies of the SEVERN VALLEY are off my computer and never mind the $ 120.00 they cost me !O t t o

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Hi Otto,I'm about to get Severn Valley Railway, and would like a fix for that messy joint; therefore could you tell me how I can fix it please as the tech details confused me somewhat?Mike

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Hi Mike !I am not aware of any direct replacements for this "switch" which according to it's file name is not denoted as a Pnt like most of the others.I replaced one with a 5° switch, adjusting tracks to connect to it and after saving the SVR successfully prior to exiting the RE found that I could not go back into it, "Send, do not send". Not that this switch was covered by any interactive track objects !Take Care, O t t o.

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You DO know that BlueArrow have their own forum over at www.uktrainsim.com, which they frequent regularly? Did you try posting there?

Leiv Eiriksson was first - Christoffer Columbus used a Viking map!

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Hi Ole !Done one better, E-Mailed Mike Hambly direct over a week ago and at the same time wrote to Tim Court who said that his copy did not show these weird switches. Checked with a friend who confirmed that his copy also had them. Was not aware then that all the switches did not move their blades. Asked JUST TRAINS and Tim about that again a couple of days ago, no response.Can't really expect answers from the Blue Arrow TS forum, responding to a question not even the creators seem to have an answer for and before going public would like to give the vendors the opportunity to explain in private. O t t o

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What I said was I could not find the misalignment of the switches arc rail, I even sent screenshots, this is the 8th email of this type I have had in a month which has followed a screenshot or publication of something.Right now I am very disillusioned at getting these kind of resposes, I really do literally spend most of my waking hous doing this stuff and I think next week you will see my retirement from MSTS and Train simming in general- I really have had enough.I enjoy modelling but after going public, these last 4 years have seen nothing but slamming of anything that I have done, I think its time to bow gracefully and step away from the "scene" I think.Tim C

Member of the Royal Guild of Route Builders

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Just for the record, Tim, this is what I asked you to ckeck at this location :Hi Tim !

I re-installed the SVR and applied the .01 patch from JUST TRAINS. No difference, the A1t870r4d switches still look like this, disjointed and overlaid frogs:You replied sending me this shot which I can not tell it's coordinates from and with only the start of one frog showing, looking different to the ones in my picture. Also did not hear from you what the reason for the frozen switches blades were.O t t o

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Otto,Normally, I am an "Otto Defender", and, to a degree, I still am in this situation. I understand how anyone could become upset at a perceived lack of response. Perhaps, they were trying to ascertain, through contacting other users on their list of purchasers, if different "runs" of making the CD had different results for those who bought the route, since Tim did not notice the problem on his installation. Email servers sometimes do crazy things and cause delays. Maybe not enough people, so far, had responded to their queries. At least not enough to pinpoint the source of the error. It is possible that the beta-testers did not have the problem, and it was introduced ( through an RE "bug" ) after a supposedly "simple" fix of something that one of the testers found. Fixing one error introduced another. Just a bit more patience, please. Even though they are a payware company, I am sure that all must have other jobs outside of MSTS. I doubt that their revenues from MSTS products is enough to provide a steady income. There just aren't enough MSTS users to support the number of companies that produce payware for all those companies to be "full time" MSTS companies. I will always support you, because I know that your motivation is to improve MSTS and assist others to enjoy it. But, as an "outside" observer ( I don't have SVR ), and as someone who considers himself an online friend of yours, I can tell you that the "method" you used to reveal this could be interpreted in a very negative manner, even though I personally feel that you were attempting constructive criticism. Online, we cannot "read" the facial expressions and body language when we "communicate".I think you owe Tim an apology, and I think that BlueArrow owes you one as well, for the delay in getting responses to you. Even if it wasn't their fault ( for any of the reasons I mentioned above ), any business should apologize for any problems in timely customer service.Now that I have that off my chest, and now that we know that the "missing" lines are probably due to an RE error ( thanks to Microsoft/KuJu, RE does some funny things, as you probably well know, Otto ), we should all demand a refund from Microsoft. Of course they do state that the "tools" are unsupported software.P.S. Otto: If you don't change your mind about getting rid of SVR, I will ask Tim ( or BlueArrow ) if you can legally make a gift of it to me! ( I am smiling, no grinning very widely, just so all will know that I hope my comments here are taken in the manner I intended, good naturedly! )

Joe Morris CRR #2
Senior Engineer
Vice President, Equip. & Physics, OVS
Gen. Manager, OVS Shortlines
http://or4c.com/OVSTS//ShortLines.html

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-12-05 AT 04:48 PM (EST)

I hear what you are saying, Joe and must admit that sometimes I tend to be a bit impatient ! I have been having frequent exchanges with Tim via E-Mail, always responding promptly as I am sure many of you are aware of having communicated with him and consider him a friend. So far I have evidence of 3 copies of the SVR which are identical as far as switches are concerned. One a friend has, one from BLUE ARROW TS and another one from JUST TRAINS.If Tim's A1t870r4drgt are different to mine and the ones Vince used in his NEC-4 then there must be a reason for it he should be able to explain ? Have a look at this Default MSTS switch with your Shape Files Viewer, pasting a pair of Acleantrack1/2.ace into the GLOBAL\TEXTURES folder first and you will see that your's is the same also. Test put a pair in crossover fashion into a route and you will find them looking just like the ones in my shot !I just did and if they all look alike and join up like this everywhere then I would like to know why Tim's do not ! You are welcome to have one of my copies. JUST TRAINS says theirs can not be transfered but the one I purchased from BLUE ARROW TS perhaps can ? Check with them and if they agree send me an E-Mail message with your mailing address and you shall have it via Air-Mail by return. How come people can sell legally owned Software on E-Bay ?Take Care, O t t o.

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They look like that for me too. The A1t870r4drgt in my system is dated January 6th 2003 - possbily some X-Tracks revamp gone awry?
Still, Otto, let me say this, as a friend: I think you've gone way too far here. Come on - what the f*ck is the big deal? It is ONE BLOODY SWITCH dammit! Did you even LOOK at the rest of the route? This is, scenery-wise, probably one of the best routes created. And you dump it because of one switch that looks out of place, something that isn't even Bluearrow's fault, but X-tracks?? Jeez, get a grip man!

Leiv Eiriksson was first - Christoffer Columbus used a Viking map!

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It's not the looks of that switch that spoils the route for me, Ole, it's the fact that I can not see the switch blades move.When I am driving and switching, the latter I do most, I would like to see where I am going without having to consult the F8 monitor, moving it to where I can see it.As with the SURFLINER, the rolling stock alone that came with the SVR is outstanding, riding the rails like this, is worth the money spent, to be used on my other routes ! O t t o

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You said you'd removed and binned the route. Now you say you've kept the trainsets installed to use them on other routes.
You know that's technically piracy, right?

Leiv Eiriksson was first - Christoffer Columbus used a Viking map!

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> You said you'd removed and binned the route. Now you say you've kept the trainsets
> installed to use them on other routes. You know that's technically piracy, right? How do you work that out, Ole !I have paid for it and can do with it as I please on my machines !O t t o

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>It's not the looks of that switch that spoils the route for
>me, Ole, it's the fact that I can not see the switch blades
>move.
>
>When I am driving and switching, the latter I do most, I
>would like to see where I am going without having to consult
>the F8 monitor, moving it to where I can see it.
>O t t o Oh for ----s sake! This is the same as with Surfliner. You want one thing and wont comprimise and then you winge and bitch about it. Most people probbably didnt notice this because they actually drive the route and enjoy the scenery and locomotives. They don't go along staring at the screen to find one bit of trackwork that just isn't quite right. Its a game, nothing is EVER perfect in a game. Deal with it.

Adam from Australia
www.trainweb.org/aussiepix/
"Founding Member of Enough stupid Clubs Club"

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Otto & MikeAs I hinted in post #4 and stated in post #7 this problem can be fixed by creating a new trackshape that matches the tsection definition. Before topic came up, I didn't even know that this was a switch.The soonest that I could assemble one would be next weekend. If someone else would like to create a replacement before then, great!
StevenStandardized \global\tsection.dat file now at build #27.

LMRR - Lower Mainland Railways (of BC)
Track: 1505.89 km
Roads: 1220.08 km

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Great, Steven !That would make a few SVR users and Vince Cockeram very happy ! There is only a handful that could attempt such a job, Okrasa and you included. Have tried many times but is way over my ability to create or modify graphics of such nature.No rush, it's been there since day one and not many seem to have noticed or do care ! Take Care, O t t o.

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Otto,I have noticed the udertones of the posts you have made,you will be no doubt plesed to know I am now officially stepping off the plate, caring means alot to me which is why I do the job in the first place.I took a pay cut to work with Railldriver and Ultimately PI, Thank you for your post since it has caused me to take stock of wether I am up to the job or not and I have now made my decision, I will be stepping down from the commercial arena since I feel I do not have the necessary skills to provide what the discerning customer needs, I feel since I have caused such upset over something that TNTS will not live up to the expectations of the community which I cannot be a party to.I will be submitting my notice to step down from the TMTS Project next week.I have learnt my lesson from mixing the hobby with my job and will not be making the same mistake again since I was unaware of how much a gross oversight like this would have an effect on people which is something I have difficulty living with, I originally got into Train simming to hopefully be useful to the community but if I bring my skills into doubt then its time to not do this any more.I thank you for pointing this out to me.
Tim C

Member of the Royal Guild of Route Builders

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Otto,The stock is so well palced on the rails because I didn't do it, I am sure if there were any of my stock items in there then they would be weeded out pretty quickly for critique!

Member of the Royal Guild of Route Builders

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Tim ! I do not criticise people for what they are or who they are, race, religion or politics, but occasionally for what they do, same as I am being criticised.But I do criticise products I am paying for if they are not up to what I think they are supposed to be.As has been said, the Scenery and Objects you have supplied are superb and I said so in my initial review.Am not aware of who laid the tracks. Was that you as well ? Does not say so in the SVR manual !O t t o

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I hope that you are making the right decision, Tim and am sure that your talents will be appreciated wherever they may be applied !Stepping into the Commercial Arena is a thankless task, expectations are high and not always reflected in the pay received. Also being at the cutting edge with new products requires nerves of steel and teflon skin ! A lot of money and responsibility is riding on a new project like TMTS and I would not want to be exposed to the pressures that go with it, being a bit of a perfectionist myself and on many occasions almost burning myself out to cover for others.Good Luck in the Future and I am sure you will be much happier for it ! And probably your girlfriend too ! Take Care, O t t o.

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-13-05 AT 00:43 AM (EST)

>I hope that you are making the right decision, Tim and am
>sure that your talents will be appreciated wherever they may
>be applied !
>
>Stepping into the Commercial Arena is a thankless task,
>expectations are high and not always reflected in the pay
>received. Also being at the cutting edge with new products
>requires nerves of steel and teflon skin !
>
>A lot of money and responsibility is riding on a new project
>like TMTS and I would not want to be exposed to the
>pressures that go with it, being a bit of a perfectionist
>myself and on many occasions almost burning myself out to
>cover for others.
>
>Good Luck in the Future and I am sure you will be much
>happier for it ! And probably your girlfriend too !
>
>Take Care, O t t o. YEah Otto now that your outsized Ego has driven a talented developer from the Hobby I'm assuming you'll be taking his place?????Fat chance as IMHO Tim has talent and all I've ever seen you contirbute is criticism!!! And I read it the same way with the same negative undertones that Tim did.... This was definately an attack and a stroke on your own ego! Be a man and admit it instead of this passive aggressive krap you always pull when some one is offended by the tone of your posts....Don't bother replying! Now this time it is me blocking you!!!!!What a bozo and what an ego....**************** Edited by me as I doubt you would understand it **************But This time you went too far....You should have kept THIS off the airwaves!!!!!"PLONK!"Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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I'd like to thank Otto for performing such a valuable consumer service. Without him, who would be left to hound creative men of talent from their productive labors?And yes, Charlie Brown, that's sarcasm. I now turn to the ancient words of Theodore Roosevelt:It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.Emphasis mine.

____________________________________________________________________
Norfolk & Western’s Radford Division, Pulaski District: Who needs the Marias Pass?

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Well spoken words from a great man !More or less sums my life up, never giving up to do better, taking the rough with the smooth and come up smiling in the end !!! O t t o

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Speaking as a referee, I would say the truth or actual reality of what was originally initiated by Otto has rather been twisted out of proportion: On the one hand is it not emotional blackmail Tim for you to use Otto as the fall guy as a way of punishing all of us who desperately depend on your undoubted skill and talent to keep train-simming going, and on the other NW_611, is it not a form of intimidation to stomp on anyone who points out valid problems or faults. Thanks to Otto's special observations, Steven will provide a fix. Now tell me what is better an improved version of SVR or the present one? I hope I've come in time to prevent the boot stompers "doing their thing!"Mike

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>I hope I've come in time to prevent the boot stompers "doing their thing!" No, at this point you and Otto have pretty well stomped this one into the ground. As already stated it's easy to criticize, it's much harder to create. Try creating something, you might like it.

"Boycott Michael Moore and his friends in France"

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OMG !!OTTO .... Find a new hobby bud !!LaterTim Kent – 96th_Malice - Winnipeg Canada

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Yes, I have been thinking about that lately, Tim ! Spending far too much time in front of my computers, not good for my old body, my legs starting to swell up ! But Computing has been my life and still is and I keep getting asked by my friends to help and I don't just mean in Train Sims.Ah well, you will have to put up with me for a little while longer ! Take Care, O t t o.

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Otto, have you ever returned any route or Train Sim purchases for a refund? Even if he bitches from here to tomorrow about what he sees as being wrong with a product, he still paid his money. More than I can say for the vast majority of train-sim users.

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>Otto, have you ever returned any route or Train Sim
>purchases for a refund? Even if he bitches from here to
>tomorrow about what he sees as being wrong with a product,
>he still paid his money. More than I can say for the vast
>majority of train-sim users. So are you inferring that the vast majority of train-sim users are all thief's who have stolen their software? Are you talking from your own personal experience? I guess I'm in the minority of users who actually has paid for the commercial software I use.One point we can agree on, if you don't like something don't buy it or return it for a refund.

"Boycott Michael Moore and his friends in France"

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I've read this thread from start to finish, and quite honestly
I've not seen such petty-minded nit-picking in many a year. If all you can do when you buy a route is make a microscopic examination of the thing just to find faults, what the hell are you still doing with Train Simulator anyway?The default MS/Kuju routes and models have more errors than you can shake a stick at; the simulator engine itself is so unstable that any self-respecting company would have thrown it out at beta-testing. The trackwork is a joke and has been from day one - no frog, no check rails, rail profile about a foot wide, no proper crossings, signal posts that look like they're made from a paper lollipop stick, station platforms a yard away from the track; should I go on?
You want to complain about default track, complain to Microsoft - not to the Severn Valley authors. All they did was use what was given to them. If you can find a more realistic representation of a line in MSTS, outwith the trackwork, I'd like to see itAs for non-animated turnouts, NONE of them on my default track move. Ever. Anywhere. I have no idea where my train is going without the track and turnout indicators. Thank heaven for UK Finescale routes. Otto, you owe Tim and the rest of the Severn Valley crew one hell of an apology. Oh, and on my copy of SVR, I can't find your 'faulty' crossover; maybe it's your machine and your installation that screwed up SVR, not the other way about?

Barry
Certified Old Fart
=========================
Any opinion expressed above is hereby warranted to be worth exactly what you paid for it.

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This thread has served a usefull purpose. Read it all the way thru and you will realize why I will not upload to the file library here. You will also realize why many good people have left. Guess the sad part from my view point is that Kevarc was banned and now we get useless crap like this. I would be glad to see Otto gone, as most of his posts are a waste of bandwidth imho. Tim Court is a good man and has a lot of talent, hopefully he will not give up because of the jackasses here.

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Same old story. Another hobby loses a great contributor because of some loudmouth nitpicker who probably never contrubuted so much as an activity in his life.And it's those of us grateful hobbyists who appreciate the hard work and talents of the people involved, get screwed in the end when those talents are gone.Last month, TheUSPits.com closed it's doors after 10 years of providing the racing sim community with some very unique add-ons. Just a sign of the times I guess.They'll really be complaining when all they have to work with is what came in the box, because nobody wants to put up with their rants anymore.Mike Spinelli

Ohio Valley System Virtual Railroad
www.or4c.com/OhioValley/

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Unfortunately, you missed the meaning of my post completely. I am inferring that the majority of Train-Sim users have not and do not purchase third party add-ons, myself included. I hardly ever buy add-ons for games because I am staunchly devoted to the freeware system, and I actively participate in communities I find interesting. If I have the time, inclination, and talent, I sometimes give back what I can.http://www.salasnet.com/fs/index.html
http://osx.beyondunreal.com/eko/
http://www.salasnet.com/chess/index.htmlYou, my dear sir, are the one who made the statement that you think most folks are thieves, and that I am one of them, a sentiment I would never have bestowed on you from a simple post. In truth, as long as I am speaking, it is those kind of automatic, knee-jerk attacks that your post implies which IMHO, brings the level of any discussion on the forums down to a level which makes me want to exit my browser immediately. You don't go around to people in real life whom you barely know and ask them if they are thieves, do you? Why is this acceptable online?

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>You, my dear sir, are the one who made the statement that
>you think most folks are thieves, and that I am one of them,
>a sentiment I would never have bestowed on you from a simple
>post.Jorge:"Even if he bitches from here to tomorrow about what he sees as being wrong with a product, he still paid his money. More than I can say for the vast majority of train-sim users."Talking about knee-jerk responses, just responding to what you, yourself said. Maybe you should read and think about your own posts before you hit the post message button.

"Boycott Michael Moore and his friends in France"

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>Otto, have you ever returned any route or Train Sim
>purchases for a refund? Even if he bitches from here to
>tomorrow about what he sees as being wrong with a product,
>he still paid his money. More than I can say for the vast
>majority of train-sim users.
Boy, I sure don't understand where this is coming from. I can only hope you are implying that most of us are not supporting the developers by not buying the products and are not implying we are using pirated copies of software ??
If my second assumption is correct, then I, too, am a part of your minority as I do not use any pirated routes or equipment. If my first assumption is correct, then yes, you do have a point in that not enough of us are putting money back in to this hobby by supporting the developers. In my case, the best reality check came when I became aware of some behind the scenes stuff with the recently released California route. Since that time I have been sending money to developers for engines that I "had always meant to buy" but now I have. I also have a long list of routes and equippment I plan to purchase as then become available this year.

I live in NW Ohio, but my heart is in Cajon Pass.

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-13-05 AT 00:51 AM (EST)

Well now, here we go again. We (the majority of train-simmers) are being lumped in to the pile of theives, degenerates, and no-talent whiners who have nothing good to add to the world. I also take offense to that statement as I have paid for everything on my PC as well.As for the single-handed lopping off of the head of Tim Court by Otto, perhaps it's time for the swelling to be relieved from your head. Perhaps the oh-so talented and gifted Mr. Otto should bite his tongue a bit regarding the public humiliation of such an extremely talented individual as Tim Court. His accomplishments are vast and by your own observations beyond your ability.Yes Mr. Otto you have added tremendously to this community and your list of accomplishments is long and distinguished, just like your forked tongue! You have now successfully butchered two incredible routes in the last month, what's next, world politics?Your oppinions are welcomed here and at other places regarding MSTS and the varients therein, your delivery is pitiful. Yet you humbly sit back and let Tim post that he has for sure decided to bail-out on all of us due in part by your comments and continued reiterations of how you have fixed this glaring error in a route you paid for. Just post a simple "fix" and be done with it. We are getting so darned tired (and yes I speak for many here) of your "Original Version, Ottodad's version" that we could just puke. I would've by now reading all this crap but I hate cleaning up the mess.Take this in to consideration: when evaluating anything for MSTS for any missing rivet, misaligned tie or switch, keep it to yourself and think about how not to embarrass/piss-off the developers of the said product, THEN post your fixes. My grandfather taught me a great lesson in life, and that was to think about what you are going to convey to your audience before opening the curtain. It is best to open your eyes before opening your mouth.Tim, do not bail on us here as we still need you here for all your expertise. Do you remember a line from a great Vulcan that goes like this? The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one."??? Yes it was Spock from StarTrek, and do not despair. The wantan rambling of an egotistical, leg-swollen retired expert of all things should be the last thing to drive you to retirement.Good night sweet prince, let your mouth not be your guide!

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NOW YOU ALL CAN TAKE NOTE RIGHT HERE AND NOW ...THIS STOPS RIGHT HERE...THIS THREAD IS LOCKED.Just Rollin Down The Tracks

Dale

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