CabForwards

CabForwards are NOW available at www.3dtrainstuff.com. The price is steep but the package comes with lots of goodies. The addon is called Vintage Trains over Tehachapi Pass. Ordered mine tonight. John

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RE: CabForwards, Cell0518, Sep-10-04, 00:55 AM, (1) RE: CabForwards, mrmike, Sep-10-04, 02:27 AM, (2) RE: CabForwards, brucek, Sep-10-04, 03:42 AM, (3) RE: CabForwards, niknak, Sep-10-04, 04:01 AM, (4) RE: CabForwards, Curious142, Sep-10-04, 07:54 AM, (7) RE: CabForwards, Coonskin, Sep-10-04, 08:28 AM, (8) RE: CabForwards, digitalfroggy, Sep-10-04, 04:09 AM, (5) RE: CabForwards, adamb, Sep-10-04, 04:49 AM, (6) RE: CabForwards, niknak, Sep-10-04, 09:24 AM, (9) RE: CabForwards, stephenburr, Sep-10-04, 10:32 AM, (10) RE: CabForwards, SVTS, Sep-10-04, 11:02 AM, (11) RE: CabForwards, JohnDWW, Sep-10-04, 01:54 PM, (12) RE: CabForwards, Coonskin, Sep-10-04, 03:19 PM, (13) RE: CabForwards, JohnDWW, Sep-10-04, 04:34 PM, (14) RE: CabForwards, smp11512, Sep-12-04, 05:15 AM, (28) RE: CabForwards, digitalfroggy, Sep-10-04, 05:40 PM, (15) RE: CabForwards, westerngy, Sep-10-04, 07:11 PM, (16) RE: CabForwards, Busdriver, Sep-11-04, 00:01 AM, (17) RE: CabForwards, Steamman, Sep-11-04, 01:24 AM, (18) RE: CabForwards, lateagain, Sep-11-04, 04:14 AM, (19) RE: CabForwards, 3DRailHound, Sep-11-04, 07:02 AM, (20) RE: CabForwards, lateagain, Sep-11-04, 08:03 AM, (21) RE: CabForwards, CGW409, Sep-11-04, 12:04 PM, (23) RE: CabForwards, brucek, Sep-11-04, 05:18 PM, (24) RE: CabForwards, longislandmike, Sep-11-04, 08:44 PM, (25) RE: CabForwards, Derby415, Sep-11-04, 10:12 PM, (26) RE: CabForwards, wws04662, Sep-12-04, 08:43 AM, (29) RE: CabForwards, lateagain, Sep-12-04, 04:08 AM, (27) RE: CabForwards, bwfer, Sep-12-04, 04:20 PM, (30) RE: CabForwards, robertreedy, Sep-12-04, 04:36 PM, (31) RE: CabForwards, lunionpacific2, Sep-12-04, 05:38 PM, (32) RE: CabForwards, lateagain, Sep-12-04, 06:56 PM, (33) RE: CabForwards, westerngy, Sep-12-04, 08:25 PM, (34) RE: CabForwards, Steamman, Sep-13-04, 08:40 AM, (43) RE: CabForwards, CGW409, Sep-12-04, 08:41 PM, (35) RE: CabForwards, westerngy, Sep-12-04, 09:11 PM, (36) RE: CabForwards, jorge, Sep-12-04, 09:58 PM, (37) RE: CabForwards, PatchCrew, Sep-12-04, 10:33 PM, (38) RE: CabForwards, Gixxer86g, Sep-14-04, 06:30 PM, (49) RE: CabForwards, brucek, Sep-13-04, 00:29 AM, (39) RE: CabForwards, cnw8717, Sep-13-04, 01:32 AM, (40) RE: CabForwards, bnsfrr, Sep-13-04, 01:35 AM, (41) RE: CabForwards, lateagain, Sep-13-04, 03:32 AM, (42) RE: CabForwards, Brad 110, Sep-13-04, 06:51 PM, (44) RE: CabForwards, NYSW4002, Sep-14-04, 01:01 AM, (45) RE: CabForwards, CajunRon, Sep-14-04, 08:08 AM, (46) RE: CabForwards, Brad 110, Sep-14-04, 04:19 PM, (48) RE: CabForwards, brucek, Sep-15-04, 00:56 AM, (50) RE: CabForwards, Night Train, Sep-15-04, 04:21 AM, (51) RE: CabForwards, lateagain, Sep-15-04, 06:12 AM, (52) RE: CabForwards, rgarber, Sep-15-04, 12:59 PM, (53) RE: CabForwards, Brad 110, Sep-16-04, 05:24 PM, (69) RE: CabForwards, FDL_12, Sep-14-04, 08:32 AM, (47) RE: CabForwards, Coonskin, Sep-15-04, 01:04 PM, (54) RE: CabForwards, wmalder, Sep-15-04, 01:45 PM, (55) RE: CabForwards, Hack, Sep-15-04, 03:48 PM, (56) RE: CabForwards, wmalder, Sep-16-04, 02:19 AM, (66) RE: CabForwards, lateagain, Sep-15-04, 05:30 PM, (57) RE: CabForwards, PatchCrew, Sep-15-04, 07:38 PM, (58) RE: CabForwards, Coonskin, Sep-15-04, 11:09 PM, (60) RE: CabForwards, PatchCrew, Sep-16-04, 00:00 AM, (62) RE: CabForwards, Coonskin, Sep-16-04, 00:05 AM, (64) RE: CabForwards, rgarber, Sep-15-04, 11:12 PM, (61) RE: CabForwards, NW_611, Sep-15-04, 10:54 PM, (59) RE: CabForwards, jorge, Sep-16-04, 00:04 AM, (63) RE: CabForwards, Busdriver, Sep-16-04, 01:26 AM, (65) Va Voom, JivaGoswami, Sep-16-04, 02:29 PM, (67) RE: Va Voom, jorge, Sep-16-04, 03:50 PM, (68) RE: Va Voom, lnghairedwizard, Sep-16-04, 05:37 PM, (70) RE: Va Voom, wp713, Sep-19-04, 06:49 AM, (71) RE: Va Voom, sp_dave, Sep-24-04, 00:46 AM, (72)

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DANG! That is quite expensive. May have to wait a week or so, around B-day. That's gonna be a CHUNK of $$.Chris

Visit-> -

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I just ordered mine tonight also.Oh well, who needs to eat this week. My Computer specs are in my profile
Mike
"

This Smile says it all"

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Quote:-...The price is steep...."Steep"?
You must be kidding!Forty-three US dollars (which equates to AUS$64-00) is chicken-feed for the occasional purchase for this hobby.It never ceases to amaze me how some people cry poor-mouth when it comes to forking out for quality payware yet they'll ante-up for cigarettes, liquor and fast-food without any hesitation.The centuries-old caveat applies here, folks....if you consider it beyond your means, just don't buy it, but don't bemoan the right of the developer to try and make a few bucks.Bruce

AustRail

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The website states you need the route for the add-on to work. I realise the included activites won't work without the route but do I need the route just to run the rolling stock?Regards, Nick (UK)

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No. The rolling stock should work on any route (they had better anyway).CB

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"but do I need the route just to run the rolling stock?"No. Any engine or piece of rolling stock compatible with MSTS will operate on any MSTS route (Caveat: Electric loco needs to be on an electrified route.)
Andre MingVisit VSC's temporary web page at: http://www.vscalecreations.comVisit VSC's Forum at: http://www.3DTrains.com

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-10-04 AT 04:19 AM (EDT)

That add-on costs more than what I paid for MSTS. That's just ridiculous.They did do a nice job though.

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Woa! Looks good! But I'll never get itAdam

Visit my website! www.trainweb.org/aussiepix/
Adam, TKW Reskinner, Australia

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Hey you guys, you need to move to the UK and take advantage of the currency exchange rates! Regards, Nick (UK)ps: Thanks for the replies to my earlier query.

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Looks good, however, I'm wondering if all this stuff is also going to be included with the Donner Pass Route anyway when it comes out?Yes, $42 plus bucks is quite a bit. Some people cannot afford to shell out so much money over and over for quality stuff. One just has to establsih priorities (not just MSTS) and pick and choose what they can afford. That is the nature of the beast of capitalism.I will say this. For the quantity and the quality of the items that you're getting, it may not be that bad of a deal! If I didn't have the mrs. to deal with on the budget, I'd probably get it now. Of course, there's still the question of inclusion in the Donner Pass Route.Anyway, great job guys. Hope to see Donner Pass soon, as that is my priority right now.

Steve Burr

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I thought $42 was a lot too till I kept scrolling down. Not only do you get the cab-Forwards, 4 of them I think, but you get the ATSF F units, cabooses, rolling stock and activites. Still there will be those that complain about the price, of which there is a simple solution...don't buy it. 3DTS put a lot of hard work and many, many man hours into this add-on. They have to charge a price that allows them to make a little something to keep things going.Looks good Brad. I'm not a huge steam fan as you may recall, but that doesn't mean I won't take one if it happens to end up in my mailbox Chris Bogley
Syracuse New York

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Hi Chris,<I'm not a huge steam fan as you may recall>I wasn't either until I had to learn to operate them, so I could make activities. I have come to appreciate Steam much more now.John Dunbar

Senior Activity Developer
3DTS
john@3dtrainstuff.com

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Hello John:Understand completely on the steam being quite enjoyable in MSTS. Much more challenging to operate than a diesel. I enjoy both. Would you mind elaborating on the equipment that will be released with the Donner Pass Route? Will the route and equipment be separate releases thus no duplication of equipment? Thanks for any info.Andre MingVisit VSC's temporary web page at: http://www.vscalecreations.comVisit VSC's Forum at: http://www.3DTrains.com

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Hi AndreWithout a doubt we will have Cabforwards on the Donner Route. However we will do like we did with the Tehachpai, research which units were used on the particular route and number them accordingly. We have the option of making other Cabforwards besides AC-10 and AC-12s. Other then that, we probably will not duplicate what's on the Tehachapi. Not all decisions have been made yet and Brad will be the one to announce what equipment will be available. Of course we would like to have some surprises for everybody.John Dunbar

Senior Activity Developer
3DTS
john@3dtrainstuff.com

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>Hi Chris,
>
><I'm not a huge steam fan as you may recall>
>
>I wasn't either until I had to learn to operate them, so I
>could make activities. I have come to appreciate Steam much
>more now. Yes, I admit that I was not as fascinated with them as I am with Diesels when we started this project. But now that I have worked with the Cabforwards for this pack , it has really helped my interest grow for them.Shane

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>Still there will be those that complain about the price, of
>which there is a simple solution...don't buy it. I don't plan to.

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I've ordered mine.Running one of these monsters will be interesting and challenging to say the least.To point out something about 3DTrainstuff and their customer support to fix a problem has been by far the best yet.
To the price well,I just spent 180.00 on two Nscale engines not counting the track and everything else that's needed to run them.Payware companies have helped move this sim along and without 3Dtrainstuff,3DTS and MLT not to mention a few others who bring everyone some awesome stuff.
So you have a choice as in life you purchase payware or you keep to freeware and think of one thing.It's taken the talent of people to bring us what we have and its only going to get better. Just Rollin Down The Tracks

Dale

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I can't stop jumping around....can't wait. That is great rolling stock!Bryce

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>I thought $42 was a lot too till I kept scrolling down. Not
>only do you get the cab-Forwards, 4 of them I think, but you
>get the ATSF F units, cabooses, rolling stock and activites. True enough the price isn't that bad for what you get. But it would have been nice had they packaged it differently with an option to buy just the engine at a lower price. I dont want the diesels, diesels are boring dont need the rolling stock, and definately dont want any activities.Oh well, such is life. But I would hope maybe in the future an alternative choice option would be considered.

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-11-04 AT 04:18 AM (EDT)

I decided to look at the facts based upon 3DTS's online store prices, an average of the current £/$ exchange rate. Below are the costs of the route & packs, and below that the cost of the expansion packs. Add -on ___________________Price__ ex/rate__£ price
Tehachapi Pass Route II ---- $32.95 1.75 £18.83
Tehachapi Pass Expansion Pack I $21.95 1.75 £12.54
Tehachapi Pass Expansion Pack 2 $24.95 1.75 £14.26
Tehachapi Pass Expansion Pack 3 $42.95 1.75 £24.54
Total price for all Tehachapi titles $122.80 1.75 £70.17
Tehachapi Pass Expansion Pack I $21.95 1.75 £12.54
Tehachapi Pass Expansion Pack 2 $24.95 1.75 £14.26
Tehachapi Pass Expansion Pack 3 $42.95 1.75 £24.54
Total Price for all Expansion packs $89.85 £51.34 I've not set up a poll before and can't see how to do it BUT how many of you would be more inclined to put your hand in your pocket if they were prepared to offer the deals I've costed below? Buy 2 get 20% off
Tehachapi Pass Expansion Pack I + 2 $37.52 1.75 £21.44
Tehachapi Pass Expansion Pack 1 + 3 $51.92 1.75 £29.67
Tehachapi Pass Expansion Pack 2 + 3 $54.32 1.75 £31.04 Buy 3 get 30% off $62.90 1.75 £35.94 Buy ALL get 40% off $73.68 1.75 £42.10 Based on the old addage "Stack em high, sell em cheap - thats how to make money!" It would also cut down on packaging and posting costs for them would it not? If I could poll it I'd ask:
Whether you'd be tempted to buy these packs if the offer was available?
Whether you'd buy them anyway?
Whether (like me) you'd wait for Donner Pass and forget about the whole Tehachapi Pass route as thecurrent prices for the route and expansion packs are just too rich? Geoff 3DTS Please Note. I post this as a potential customer. The balls in your court.

Geoff
West London
U.K.

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Geoff, me thinks sometimes you have way too much time on your hands man.. way more than I have anyways And honestly, what you describe would make bookeeping a bigger nightmare than it already is for us right now, not to mention the web work to set all that up with the current system that we have in place..but hey who knows, maybe someday when we can afford a full-time bookeeper, and one of those expensive shopping cart programs we will consider doing something like that, ok.Anyhow, thank you for taking the time to make that suggestion.. but now, I really must get back to work on Donner or its never going to get released in time for Christmas Keep 'em on the high irons!Best regards,
Brad Brownwww.3DTrainStuff.com

Check out our Cajon Pass & Tehachapi Pass Routes..also Donner Pass, the High Sierra Crossing route is coming soon..

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Brad,(I notice we share the same surname)I've enough time, but no where near enough money!I'm a little puzzled at that response as although I've no talent for 3D modelling the pricing took me about two minutes in Excel!!! But then I have to use that software daily whilst earning the money I do have!Your product. Up to you how you sell it. I'm merely suggesting a way of increasing sales?I should explain that I originally did this in response to complaints about the latest expansion pack price on UKTrainSim (thus the currency conversion).Any producer who ignores customer feedback, especially in a limited market does so at their peril. Not my opinion......a matter of historic record.Still I won't keep you from Donner as I want to see a new Alco PA (as advertised).Geoff.P.S. I'll mail you the spreadsheet if you want to play around with it?

Geoff
West London
U.K.

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Brad
Just my.02,I'l admit my first response was "42 bucks! they're outa their freakin minds" but then noticed you guys have stuffed a heck of a lot of content in the pack plus the exchange rate ain't real friendly to us yanks.
About the only thing holding off my decision is to see what goodies come with Donner plus cost to see what way I'll go.
BTW any idea of at least a ballpark figure as to what Donner will run?Gary S

42 year old future curmudgen(Hey you kids get offa my lawn!!)

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-11-04 AT 05:18 PM (EDT)

Quote:-Any producer who ignores customer feedback, especially in a limited market does so at their peril.A truism only if the majority of the feedback is feeding back the same message.The random, out-of-left-field, comment can usually be politely bypassed without any detrimental effect.Bruce.
(Speaking from over 30 years experience in customer-related business operations)

AustRail

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Hey, I agree the price is high. I will give it a long thought and an even longer wait to buy the pack. As it has been said, if you don't think the price is fair, don't buy it. That's all. I do agree though, the Cab- Forwards are the star of the package, and they should be part of a stand alone package to buy.Mike

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Brad,
Is there any way that I/we could buy just the cab forwards?

Thanks,
Jim

President Of BLLW
email us at: BLLW@aemail4u.com
or visit our webiste:
www.bllw.100freemb.com

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>Brad,
>Is there any way that I/we could buy just the cab forwards? My question exactly.... I have no use or want for all the other stuff packaged into this. I equate buying this package to someone buying a pound of nails to hang a single picture.. Give us the cab forwards only as a stand alone addon and I will be first in line on you site to buy it. Ask me to buy a package with a whole lot of stuff I have no interest in and will probably never use, and I will pass...
Bill

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>Quote:-Any producer who ignores customer feedback,
>especially in a limited market does so at their
>peril.
>
>A truism only if the majority of the feedback
>is feeding back the same message.
>
>The random, out-of-left-field, comment can usually be
>politely bypassed without any detrimental effect.
>
>Bruce.
>(Speaking from over 30 years experience in customer-related
>business operations) Hi Bruce, I started my posts on this topic as a non-emotive analysis of pricing of similar commercial add-ons. The freeware vs payware debate seems to send logic out the window. Personally I delight in the efforts of both. It's an unfortunate fact that however much effort goes into producing anything, the customer will only buy it if they think the price is right. One mans "Out-of-left-field" perspective is anothers whole truth. GM learned this the hard way in the States and thousands of good people lost their jobs as a result. In Europe and the UK GM listened to their customers and are still a major player.The obvious truth is that we all have choice, both producer and customer. My original post was intended to be constructive.More interestingly, I just had a look at your web site and would like to thank you for answering a question that's been bugging me for a while. That is "What the heck are those things running the length of the top of all Pennsilvania's Loco's?" It's not as if I haven't read much on US loco's and have dozens of books with pictures of them and nowhere have I found an explanation. A bit like someone with a blemish on their face, everyone tries to avoid looking at it or mentioning it. As far as I can see they were unique to this railroad? I really enjoy looking at old Ad's so I particularly enjoyed that link. Geoff

Geoff
West London
U.K.

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-12-04 AT 04:26 PM (EDT)

Putting things into perspective...Challenger Model Imports HO Brass Cab Forward AC10 ...$2640.00

Broadway Limited Imports HO Plastic Cab Forward AC4/AC5.......$450.003D TrainStuff AC10 AC12 Cab Forwards, .......$42.95
with ATSF FTs, PFE Reefers, SP Beet Gons, etc
along with 16 activitiesAttitude of some people on this forum PRICELESSOrdered mine 9/10/04

Brian

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-12-04 AT 04:37 PM (EDT)

>Putting things into perspective... <SNIP>>Attitude of some people on this forum
>PRICELESS >Ordered mine 9/10/04 This thread (and post)INESTIMABLY PRECIOUS RobertR .. ADF-M&RM at http://www.adfrr.com

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IN RESPONSE TO # 27
Again the same old story. Comparing bananas with lemons.
Brian, when I buy >>>>>>>>>>
Broadway Limited Imports HO Plastic Cab Forward AC4/AC5.......$450.00
I have the right of at any time to sell it to anybody at any price.I doubt how could you do the same, with your "recycled" eletrons, unless braking a Copyright Rule, selling a copy of your Cab Forward.In my opinion, price is price and should not be discussed in an open Forum. Each one of us, not happy with a product price, should discuss it with the Company who makes or the distributor.In this case
www.3dtrainstuff.com.
Regards
Lucio

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LucioYou hit the nail on the head in the first part of your answer but price is price?....and you in the land of Ralph Nader?Boy he would feel like he'd been pissing into the wind if he could read that!

Geoff
West London
U.K.

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Lets look at price.I had a wonder over and looked at Bluearrows price for KHP2 is 24.99 pounds,thats around 45 dollars Cdn thats more than MLT charged for it.
Remember currency price conversion and for you folks in Europe and of course England and Scotland and Wales the price for it of 42.95 US dollars is a bargain.
Why do you insist on going on about price.Is it that you want something for nothing.
Just Rollin Down The Tracks

Dale

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-13-04 AT 08:41 AM (EDT)

>
> Lets look at price.I had a wonder over and looked at
>Bluearrows price for KHP2 is 24.99 pounds,thats around 45
>dollars Cdn thats more than MLT charged for it.
>Remember currency price conversion and for you folks in
>Europe and of course England and Scotland and Wales the
>price for it of 42.95 US dollars is a bargain.
> Why do you insist on going on about price.Is it that you
>want something for nothing. No I don't want something for nothing, but then again I don't want to be paying for something I dont want and will never use like diesels, rolling stock, activities. So, $42.95 for a flatscreen cabforward is a lot of money. For those that want all that other stuff that's fine, but I still would like to have seen a stand alone version for those of us who could care less for, and as I said will use not all those extras. So everyones right, the only option is not to buy it. 'Nuff said.Jim

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GeoffThat is "What the heck are those things running the length of the top of all Pennsilvania's Loco's?" It's not as if I haven't read much on US loco's and have dozens of books with pictures of them and nowhere have I found an explanation. A bit like someone with a blemish on their face, everyone tries to avoid looking at it or mentioning it. As far as I can see they were unique to this railroad?
Yep those were train phone antenna and that design exclusive to PRR.
I'm sure more of the PRR guys can go into more detail but IIRC train phones were an early version "Radio Equiped"Gary S

42 year old future curmudgen(Hey you kids get offa my lawn!!)

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Gary I was reading an article about the first train phones and the PRR and United Signal developed them.Something if I recall around 70 engines were equiped along with cabooses and CP points between a test piece of line from Harrisburg.Just Rollin Down The Tracks

Dale

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As in any thread, there is always a silent majority who is just reading, coming to their own conclusions. I do have to mention one thing that I see repeatedly which I think is quite absurd and do not understand why it is even considered any kind of legitimate argument.Brian mentioned that the same cab-forward bought as a model railroad piece costs $450. So what? That means absolutely nothing to me nor the value of the piece of software somebody else is selling. You might as well tell me that to buy the same locomotive for real would cost you millions of dollars. I don't see the connection.You may be a model railroader and collect high price models, but I am not, so any reference to what a "real" model version of something costs means absolutely nothing to me. Furthermore, I see absolutely no connection between the hobby of model railroading and running MSTS on my computer. I love trains, I love to collect them on my computer, I love to run them on my computer. However I have ZERO desire to begin collecting or model railroading. Why? Because they are two totally different and seperate endeavors. So when you bring up the price of real models to justify a price for a software add-on to a software product... not even Spock could spin a logical basis into it for me.PERSON1: Wow that Porsche matchbox car sure is expensive at $7 dollars.
PERSON2: Shut up! If you were to buy a real Porsche it would costs over $100,000! That matchbox is a bargain!That is your argument to me.

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Jorge:Sir that was well said!Model railroad items are real items that you actually can hold. MSTS items are virtual that only exist within the electronic realm of a computer. As you said the two do not go hand in hand and do not justify a comparison in price.>I see absolutely no connection between the hobby of model railroading and running MSTS on my computer.What I think is happening is some MSTS developers think that model railroading is getting so expensive that some hobbyists are turning to MSTS as a alternative. IMHO I think that is far from the truth and I believe the hobbyists are just expanding their realm of virtual railroading by using MSTS also. So maybe there is a slight connection but no actual comparison.Here is one for all of you. Are the radio control aircraft hobbyists turning to flight simulator as a replacement because their hobby is expensive? No!PatchCrew
UP Engineer

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I view MSTS as just another model railroading scale."V"-scale.The fact that you could hold an HO or whatever scale loco in your hands is one of the few benefits in my opinion that plastic or brass has over V-scale.V-scale gives me distance,cabview,sounds,variety in routes,and a huge fleet of locos and cars.To compare a Matchbox car to a real one isn't the same as V-scale vs other scales.We're comparing the prices of models here.

"Hold tight,feel the drivers bite,hear the whistle moan.Engine rockin' to the left and right,vibratin' in my bones.Once the locomotive steals your soul,you got a Casey Jones!"---Ian"Lemmy"Kilmister

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Geoff,
Although I understand and certainly appreciate your line of thought, I think that you have overlooked what was, to me anyway, the critical part of my post, to whit:-...only if the majority of the feedback is feeding back the same message. If a large amount of the feedback is scathing then, although it may not be in the majority, neither is it random or "out-of-left-field" and, most certainly, it should be addressed.With regard to the PRR antennae, I'm delighted that my little contribution to the internet has had an educational effect and I sincerely appreciate your comments. Regards,
Bruce.

AustRail

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43 bucks hmm. Ill wait for SPH3 and UP pack from MLT first.

Brock Hansen

TKW Paint Shop

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I will not be purchasing this add-on for other reasons I will not go into. The price seems high in comparison to the current train sim add-on market; 3DTS seems to consistently have the highest prices. But in the end, the only way to show disapproval of the price is through not purchasing the product.

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>Geoff,
>Although I understand and certainly appreciate your line of
>thought, I think that you have overlooked what was, to me
>anyway, the critical part of my post, to whit:-
>
>...only if the majority of the feedback is feeding
>back the same message.
>
>If a large amount of the feedback is scathing then, although
>it may not be in the majority, neither is it random or
>"out-of-left-field" and, most certainly, it should be
>addressed.
>
>With regard to the PRR antennae, I'm delighted that my
>little contribution to the internet has had an educational
>effect and I sincerely appreciate your comments.
>
>Regards,
>Bruce. Hi Bruce,from what I read at the time of my original post the "large amount" factor was evident. This is such a ludicrously sensitive area. My thinking behind my analysis was to cut through the emotion and look at the facts. I offered, what I thought was, a constructive suggestion. It wasn't a demand. I didn't expect my figures to be greeted as a "holy grail". It was just a suggested marketing ploy that I felt would make me (and therefore others), who don't have it, feel more inclined to buy into this route and it's add-ons. Despite this, and despite stating that I enjoyed both commercial and freeware add-ons, the usual pointless flames have started about wanting something for nothing etc.etc. The fact is that there are a number of routes and packs due for release soon and I for one have only so much money to throw at this hobby. I'm "on record" several times in expressing my appreciation of the skills and efforts of developers. Fact is that just as I only get my salary however hard I work, they'll only get the price people will pay however great their efforts.Geoff.P.S. your web sites on my favourites and enjoyed a couple of links I'd not seen before too.

Geoff
West London
U.K.

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Heck, it a better quality product then the original MSTS.Brad Meyer

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-14-04 AT 01:02 AM (EDT)

It may be a good product, however the price is way too high. You should be at least getting a whole route for that price. Heck, I spent $25.00 for Cascades Crossing from MLT and that add-on I might add is by far the best out there. The price of the cab forwards are nowheres in the competative pricing area. I rest my case.Dave

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Folks, just put a dollar a day into a piggy bank. In two months you'll have enough to buy the software and take the wife and kids out for a hamburger to boot.That's capitalism in action!

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>It may be a good product, however the price is way too high. No, the price is more then you care to pay, which is not the same thing at all. ISTM that from the thread there are at least a few who think the price is close enough to "right" so that they have decided to purchase. OTOH, I have computationally challenged friends who wouldn't pay 5 cents, much less the going price.Brad Meyer

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Quote....I rest my case. Dave, there isn't any "case" to rest.
You have simply decided that the product is out of your price range (reason is immaterial), not necessarily everyone else's.The inherent beauty of free enterprise is at play here; each person determines the value offered for the price asked.
The raw essence of Consumerism and Capitalism. Lovely!Bruce

AustRail

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>It may be a good product, however the price is way too high.
>You should be at least getting a whole route for that price.
>Heck, I spent $25.00 for Cascades Crossing from MLT and that
>add-on I might add is by far the best out there. The price
>of the cab forwards are nowheres in the competative pricing
>area. I rest my case.
>
>Dave Same here, purchased Cascades Crossing last month, and this week purchased and downloaded KHP2 for the same price, both incl awesome locos and sounds.

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-15-04 AT 06:22 AM (EDT)

>Heck, it a better quality product then the original MSTS.
>
>Brad Meyer Judging by the screen shot's that's beyond question but I don't really see your point. It's still an add-on to an add-on.We all know that the original M$T$ was flawed but it's ancient now.New computer games get better but the price per unit stays the same.Nobody would buy a game that had a three year old engine/platform in it unless it was a budget title.To sell cars, manufacturers have to keep their latest models as near cutting edge of technology as possible. Any manufacturer who tries to sell old technology in a new model at the market price is going to loose sales. Likewise the manufacturers who keep up with the new technology cannot charge a premium for this as all their competitors are doing the same.That's Capitalism/connsumerism for you.Whilst 3DTS are offering a different product but they still have commercial competitors (many pushing the envelope design wise), and unlike the car industry others are actually giving away the product and in many cases as good a product.

Geoff
West London
U.K.

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Not intended or directed at anyone in particular...I'm sure you all mean well when you suggest lower prices is the ideal way to sell a whatever, but I think you are overlooking some fundamentals. Brad was absolutely right when he suggested you try it. I'm sorry, but as insensitive as that may sound, you really ought to just step into a developers shoes before you suggest he do business otherwise. This argument is no different than the ones that start up when somebody criticizes a freeware route/engine and the developer comes back and says 'so what have you done?' As a continuing freeware developer and a payware developer this has always been a fair argument to me. It's fair because while MSTS is a simulator and should replicate the actualities of reality, we know in too many instances this doesn't happen. So my point is there are many considerations that wind up becoming compromises due to the sim itself. And thusly, the same thing happens when you develope payware and/or freeware. There's just too many things that non-developers and non-payware people do not see that add into the cost/price or the support of a package. I'm sure Brad and company came up with the fairest price they could for their package. Most of the payware guys I know bend over backwards to make their prices very fair. Of course you don't have to agree with me on that but I betcha any amount of money that if any of you would try this, you would do the same exact thing. It's not an insult. My point is there are enough realities developers (whether freeware or payware) have to deal with that the user doesn't.My second point is, you know... That's great looking stuff I see in those 3DTS pictures. What I'm saying is while you are hammering at their bottom line, don't forget this is lovely work and should be said just as much rather than some course 'too much, eat dookie' remark. The airplanes I buy for my flight sim hobby (usually 1 to a package) average around $20-$40. Utilities are the same way. If I go to build a home cockpit, it would take major major bucks; probably into the thousands. The airplanes themselves used to be cheaper, but they've gone up in price as the quality gets better. There's no reason why virtual train people should work for any less than the propellerheads.Rich Garber

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>>Heck, it a better quality product then the original MSTS.
>>
>>Brad Meyer
>
>Judging by the screen shot's that's beyond question but I
>don't really see your point.
>
>It's still an add-on to an add-on."Windows is a 32 bit extension to a 16 bit patch of an 8 bit operating system originally written for a 4 bit processor (by a 2 bit company that doesn't care 1 bit)". Did you by your Windows?>New computer games get better but the price per unit stays
>the same. A very debatable point.>Nobody would buy a game that had a three year old
>engine/platform in it unless it was a budget title.You might not, but that does not mean no one would. I have a friend that just went out and bought a three versions back copy of Links, because he happens to like that version better then the newer ones. I bought a replacement version of Action Stations (which is DOS based!) because I happen to like the game. IMO it is poor logic to suppose what "nobody" or "everybody" will do. Especially if one starts from the assumtion that "everybody will do what I do (except the stupid ones) 'cause my tastes are universal.>To sell cars, manufacturers have to keep their latest models
>as near cutting edge of technology as possible. Any
>manufacturer who tries to sell old technology in a new model
>at the market price is going to loose sales. Indeed. Competition in the marketplace. By all means, go out and buy your cab-forwards from someone offering them at a better price. >Whilst 3DTS are offering a different product but they still
>have commercial competitors (many pushing the envelope
>design wise) . . .??? Who else is selling the cab-forwards?Brad Meyer

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Hopefully the AC's pictured in this thread will be available as freeware.http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID5/8080.html

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-15-04 AT 01:09 PM (EDT)

There are so many facets to bringing such a product pack to market, I supsect that very few in the train simulator community fully understand what all is involved.Without taking the time to type out my estimates, I think it is safe to say that several hundreds of hours have gone into the production of that pack, spread over many months. (Didn't we first see pics of the 3DTS Cab forward a YEAR ago?)It is also my estimate that 3DTS will have to sell at least 100 units before they can even begin to approach the point in which the team involved will corporately gross the US minimum wage standard for their efforts... and THEN that gross income will have to have the expenses take out, and then to be split about 4 ways. Thus, if $4,295 is grossed, once the expenses are taken out, the remaining figure will be divided among the development team... maybe $800 each for several months worth of labor.I know of payware developers that have experienced, or are experiencing, cash flow problems. Why? Because we (us payware guys) have tried our best to keep this stuff as cheap as possible in the hopes that more of you will purchase. Payware developers are learning a harsh lesson: Just because we price it cheap does NOT mean more purchasers will purchase. Simply put, reducing a price by 50% does not mean that you can count on doubling your sales. That is fallacy. There is only so much market, and only so many buyers. If content is to continue being developed, one or more of the following will need to be:* To continue having a supply of those willing to do the work and release for free.* To continue to have a supply of those willing to do the work and then trying to recoup some compensation for time/effort/money expended.Those willing to do it for free typically do so according to mood and inclination. You can't blame them, after all, they have no constraining deadlines to deal with. Those of you that have never produced complicated content for this sim truly have NO idea just how exacting, frustrating, and time consuming it can be. As a hobbiest sharing their work, if the product does not get released, then they have no actual expenses to pay. The freeware form of development/distribution is indeed a viable part of the train sim community, but one that will (in time) tend to burn out, and product flow shrink. Typical payware endeavors do have deadlines to deal with. Whether we like it or not: Web space costs money. Bandwidth isn't free. Tools of the trade cost money. License fees must be addressed, etc. No one gives me for free even the simplist of supplies (such as CD mailing sleeves) in order to aid my efforts. I must purchase them. This means that we MUST get product to market if we're to survive. And that's where the real issue before us in this thread lies: Survival.When a market is determined to be small (and make no mistake, MSTS is still a VERY small market compared to other hobby markets), then developers are faced with one question of paramount importance:* If volume sales are not realistic due to small market... then what will it take for me to survive?3DTS has apparently decided that if they are to survive, then a price increase is the only way to do so.I understand, and I agree.Apparently the flight simulator market also understands. In that hobby market, one (that's O-N-E) airplane can sell for up to $40, and THAT in a much larger market than exists in MSTS.Hopefully, for the sake of this MSTS community, the supply of creators willing to develop freeware will always be around in some form or another. In regards to payware though, in the future you will see only ONE type of payware developer: Those that have survived.The ones that have tried to appease the "less is more" crowd will not have survived, and will have to turn to other means in order to secure meaningful supplemental income for time invested.Edit: One stupid typo Respectfully, Andre MingVisit VSC's temporary web page at: http://www.vscalecreations.comVisit VSC's Forum at: http://www.3DTrains.com

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I've had a say about pricing elsewhere and I have no real problem with 3DTrains prices. From the looks of things they're probably worth it. My problem is with their lack of payment options. I have been all over their website and can only find one payment option - Visa/Mastercard or nothing. For reasons I needn't get into those are not options for me. FWIW I would gladly pay by a money order or better yet PayPal. I have to wonder how may potential buyers have avoided buying due to a lack of options. I believe that it could be as much of a problem as having distribution difficulties (see MLT's recent experiences) in deterring sales. Just my opinion.Bill Alder

Resurrecting the KVR one pixel at a time.

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You have me confused with 3DTS - I make choo-choos, have two online payment options, and you can send me a MO if that's your cup-o-tea. Nevertheless, 3D Train Stuff also allows for money orders (US funds), and provides a mailing address for which to send one. If you have any questions, and you easily contact them using the information on their "Contact Us" page. Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.comPro Series v4.0 SuperPacks

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Marc,My apologies, you are indeed right. I had you confused with the other guys in this discussion. BTW I'm waiting with bated breath for your routes - that's what I'm mostly interested in.Bill Alder

Resurrecting the KVR one pixel at a time.

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Hi Rich, Hi Andre,Thanks for the constructive and considered input. You both make very valid points about “the nature of the beast” that is TrainSim. Flight Sim is light years ahead of M$T$ in so much as it has been developed (almost) continuously since PC’s began. As such they’re a refined species compared to Train Sims. Flight Sims were actually a spur to me achieving a life long ambition to fly. With the money I could spare from the realities of family life as a “wage” earner I indulged that ambition for some 14 years until new regulations here in Europe put just one too many obstacles in the way. The way they did this was by creating a minimum number of hours experience per annum that just priced those on a tight budget out of the hobby.I can appreciate all that you say about the trials and tribulations of producing a commercial product and selling it in a restricted market place. However the harsh reality of consumerism is, that the average customer “don’t give a hoot”. I can’t imagine Ford going to the market place with a price hike, attempting to get the buyer on side with “you’ve no idea what problems we had with the new gearboxes and the electronic engine management system took twice as long to develop as we’d originally estimated!”In fact they wouldn’t do it. They wouldn’t do it because Honda, Toyota, Volkswagen, BMW,etc.etc.…….are just selling cars and biting the bullet on development costs. Any one of them that decided to pass those additional development costs on to the customer, would loose custom.You’re right. The 3DTS product looks fantastic and all credit must go to the creators….BUT, so does the latest from Maple Leaf Tracks, from Blue Arrow, upcoming from Making Tracks AND that’s before we consider that there are two upcoming products from 3DTS themselves in the form of Donner Pass and the UK Swanage Route.I stand to be corrected here, but my understanding is that the Car manufacturers make their money on the top of the range models, the luxury fittings and extras. This enables them to sell the basic models, good cars without the fluffy bits, for an incredibly low profit margin. In other words they base their profit expectations across a whole range of products and predicted market share. To gain “brand loyalty” they even sell models at a loss!I don’t buy into this “Train Sim is dead” outlook. You’re (aimed at those who believe it) being too parochial. It’s an International hobby. There’s a new Russian route released just this week. Commercial developers are competing with freeware. Amazing developments to the original have been made in the form of utilities that are freeware. I bought Canton & Suddenly because the freeware routes you gave us Rich knocked me out.I’ve three 3DTS titles. One, the Cambrian route, is in my opinion, excellent. Cajon Pass I hated, for reasons previously stated, and the first add-on left me under whelmed too! Experience has taught me to keep an open mind. Even with a satisfaction score of 1 in 3 I still looked at 3DTS product, as the 1 in the equation had been good. As I stated earlier in this topic we’re looking at add-ons to an add-on with these expansion packs. It’s just bad psychology pricing the product as they have. A bit like selling a fantastic new car and quoting in the ad that “you need to have the wheels as well to run it!”“Oh look here! Here’s a car for half the price that comes with wheels!”Which one are you going to buy?Here’s my viewpoint. There are four commercial routes coming out soon that interest me. Two (mentioned above) are by 3DTS, one is by Blue Arrow and the other is by Making Tracks. So 3DTS will get my custom for 2 add-ons, unless their pricing gets sillier. If they looked at some “offers” they might get more of my bucks. If the offers were good enough I might buy every title they’ve published. I did with MLT, and they’ve just bought prices down. I can’t think of a market place in the world where you don’t get a price reduction the more you buy.Don’t take offence at this post. It’s intended as a calm dispassionate look at the subject. As Rich says in his post, my intentions in suggesting this in the first place were good.Above all please be aware that some of us do appreciate the skill time and effort that goes into any development for this Sim. I’d love to have the money and the time to buy all the products and try my hand at creating some of my own. The realities and pressures of family life mean that I have neither. If I make it to retirement I’m convinced that A Train Sim, and this community will still exist and I’ll be able to realise at least one of those ambitions.Kind regardsGeoff

Geoff
West London
U.K.

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My two cents on the matter. Now at times during this post some may read my words as harsh and critical towards the developers. They are not directed towards anyone as I'm only giving my personal opinion.I'm sorry, but as insensitive as that may sound, you really ought to just step into a developers shoes before you suggest he do business otherwise.Why assume that the consumer/buyer is stupid and does not understand? I'm sorry but as insensitive as this may sound, more importantly why should the buyer give a hoot? All the buyer wants to do is buy the product and use it. He doesn't and shouldn't care how many headaches the developer had/has. That's a task the developer took upon himself. When I purchase products from Microsoft or Symantec for example do you think I think about how much money that company made and were they able to pay all of their programmers? Do I need to care if all of those programmers were able to provide food on their tables? Man I know this sounds cruel but staying within the scope of these posts the answer is no! All the end user needs to care about is a) is the price attractive for him to buy it, b) does it work as advertised (bug free) and c) in the end did the user feel satisfied with what he purchased? My point is there are enough realities developers (whether freeware or payware) have to deal with that the user doesn't.And vice versa. It is not a one way street! You see the the end user and the developer have two TOTALLY DIFFERENT views on what is considered important. I hate when a developer tells me to step into his shoes and try to see the other side.This argument is no different than the ones that start up when somebody criticizes a freeware route/engine and the developer comes back and says 'so what have you done? As a continuing freeware developer and a payware developer this has always been a fair argument to me.This one p's me off also. What the developers are really saying here is shut up as you haven't done s@%t and I really don't want to hear your negative comments! There are way too many developers in the simulation market (trainsim and flightsim) that have said this. Piece of advice developers. Take the good with bad! But more importantly learn from both! Stop slamming the consumer just because he has a different possibly negative opinion. He has the right to express himself whether you like his comments or not!What I'm saying is while you are hammering at their bottom line, don't forget this is lovely work and should be said just as much rather than some course 'too much, eat dookie' remark. Same as above. I take this as the developer saying "kiss my forehead and make me feel good because I don't want to hear your negative comments". I can't tell you how many times I have seen people in the flightsim forums praise a developer for his work and then when one or two have something opposite to say the developer comes unglued.There's no reason why virtual train people should work for any less than the propellerheads.There is no reason you should work for less but also there is no reason to expect the same. Flight Simulator has been around for about 23 years. There have been 10 versions and since 1997 there has been a new version every two years. The flightsim market is huge. The trainsim market is nowhere near as large and in my opinion that is another reason why you cannot expect the same.Now Rich I'm not slamming your work nor your ideas and opinions so do not take my post as personal. I'm just giving my opinions.And Andre you also bring the business end of the matter that the consumer really shouldn't give a hoot about. The survival of the developers is unimportant to the buyer. Now of course the consumers will lose out if the developer does not survive as they will no longer have a product to purchase. But please developers STOP LOOKING AT THE SITUATION FROM YOUR END ONLY! Step outside of the box for a moment and think about the buyer as it is the buyer who has the potential to put money in your pocket. If you over price and item or say something negative publicly it can have a profound and lasting effect for future sales.Finally for clarification before I get the shut up as I don't know what I'm talking about statement, I am a good friend of Brad Brown from 3DTS. We talk frequently and we see each other occasionally. He keeps me up to date on his doings. He updates me on the trainsim world doings. All of the MSTS developers are like one big (actually small) family. He sometimes discusses his 3DTS business matters. I am a supporter of him and his business but I also give him a difference of opinion that I do not think he likes sometimes. One of the things I constantly do when I'm around him as we discuss matters regarding 3DTS is I try remain a consumer with consumer view. If a developer only looks and hears one side then I think they will quickly go down in flames. In closing all I'm saying here is the consumers will look at things one way. The developer will look at them a different way. Neither is wrong but neither should tell the other what they should or shouldn't do!PatchCrew
UP Engineer

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"The survival of the developers is unimportant to the buyer."Your candor is duly noted. However, the developers I associate with have long been fully aware of this attitude at this forum among those that are among the most vocal concerning payware vendors. We most certainly realize we must stand or fall on our own merit. "Neither is wrong but neither should tell the other what they should or shouldn't do!"If you'll carefully re-read my post, you'll see I most certainly did not attempt to tell anyone what they should do. Of course each consumer is free to decide for themselves what they will spend on their hobby. Likewise, each developer is free to decide for themselves if the returns are worth the effort.
Andre MingVisit VSC's temporary web page at: http://www.vscalecreations.comVisit VSC's Forum at: http://www.3DTrains.com

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Andre none of my statements were directed at you personally. I was speaking in general.PatchCrew
UP Engineer

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No problem, PC. Thanks for the clarification, though.Didn't want my intent to have been misunderstood.
Andre MingVisit VSC's temporary web page at: http://www.vscalecreations.comVisit VSC's Forum at: http://www.3DTrains.com

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Patch, I appreciate your post but I see this situation much differently than you.Why should you care? I never said explicitly you should, btw. What I said in my post was that I agree with Brad that the best way to explain pricing to those folks who are asking and at the same time telling Brad how to run his business is just like he said; you just have to try it for yourself and see. And I equated that with freeware developing because of the similarites. There are people asking something of relevance to this in this thread and that's what I am responding to.With that said, I want to go off-topic and address your own point which you continue with in the next two paragraphs by echoing your own question, why should anyone care?Frankly, because alot of people did.And alot of people still do. Back in the early days of the sim, we didn't have manuals, so we had to write the manuals. Through alot of sharing and discussions as well as many long winded posts by our resident great coconut tribal chief, we puttered on. Helping each other. It was a combination of both payware and freeware that has brought us to where we are today with this sim. First it was Abacus and Amabillius who sold us TSM and 3dcanvas. And because of that our library grew. Of course we paid for their product, but through that we got something going amongst ourselves to reach beyond what kuju provided. New ideas were always being talked about and some of us made them happen. Some of us now are payware. Others with knowlege about real trains guided those of us who didn't know so our end product looks more authentic. And that happens for freeware or payware alike. Understand that when I say I expect you to care that I'm not asking you to raise my kids or look after my house, but I do expect you to understand the complexities of what we are dealing with this sim. This is an unsupported sim that still says on the box, 'the editors are not supported by MS.' None of that has changed so we have built little companies and organizations on shakey ground, if you will. User intervention is required. I still answer questions concering file management for my two older routes, Ohio Rail and East Metro. File management did I say? Is that MSTS? Nope, but if a user doesn't understand it, guess who gets the email? It isn't MS, and it isn't Symantec or IBM. Rather, it's me or you the developer. Unpaid. Uncompensated, how unfair, right? So what I'm saying is if you are going to be one who wants to know why this is the way it is, then you better care what I have to say. See I only got so much time to answer emails, make routes, make objects, make activities, make manuals and respond to posts. And I'm saying this as nicely as I can, maybe if more tried some of this, you would then know how much I do care.And also note nobody is trying to make excuses here. None of us sell copies of MSTS. But where do users go when things go wrong? To MS, maybe? Nope, they come here or to our email mailboxes. And they ask, 'can you help?' And we do. No, that doesn't happen in FS because FS is supported. So I got two jobs my friend. One is I make what I do for MSTS. The second, MSTS support. And we payware guys have a few more hats to wear on top of that.Now don't you take offense to my post either. This is my opinion as one who has contributed in many many ways to this sim. I don't mean any of this with any malice.Hope this helps!Rich Garber

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This is a thorny problem. A couple of observations:1. Fifty bucks---the estimated cost to get it in my hands---is a lot of money. There are, however, a fair amount of locomotives in the pack. The question to be asked then is, "Are you paying solely for these mutant steam locomotives and receiving the EMD units as a bonus, or are you paying for them both?"2. I agree with the stated position rejecting the comparison of acquisition costs for this hobby with those of model railroading. I would further like to say that the sheer costs of model railroading is one of the things that will keep me from ever embracing it. It goes without saying that I think the current business model of building a handful of locomotives in "limited runs" and charging through the roof for them does a disservice to any consumer who can't/won't fork over the hideous amounts of cash required to buy some of these locomotives. How many thousand for a metal cab-forward again? That isn't the MSTS product being lowballed, but rather toy train collectors with way too much money and far too little sense. 3. In regards to Mr. Garber's well-argued statement re: flight simulation add-ons, the rising costs (both financial and operational) along with the proliferation of sole-example addons, plus MSTS effectively operated to kill my interest in Flight Simulator. Lou Betti may make the best Boeing 737 in history, but Dream Fleet stuff is expensive on both the wallet and the computer; likewise, it seemed at the time that the payware types were crowding out the freeware people.* The problem was---and I hope it doesn't come here---that a lot of people were ready willing and able to shell out (what seemed to me to be) a large sum of money on a never-ending basis, and leave those of us who didn't have unlimited capital budgets for either a) HAL-9000 every 6 months, or b) forty bucks per plane, in the dust.That might've come out somewhat disjointed, but the bottom line is that Mr. Garber's "propellerheads" charge too bloody much and bloat their products. I really could care less if the nose on a 747-400F raises or not; unless someone's got an aircraft unloading simulator, it doesn't matter to me. But somewhere, people whined and thus it came. !@#% It's like playing poker against someone who keeps constantly raising the pot; it gets annoying and eventually you have to fold. 4. In regards to Mr. Ming's point regarding the financial position of the developers, I cannot empathize. I would suggest, in the alternative, that instead of prices being too low, the products being offered are not in majority demand, or that the market(s) they are serving have been overbuilt, as it were. Take MLT and 3DTS for example:3DTS' entire American railroad product line is of no interest to me. I think that maybe they've just saturated their market---how many times can one make Southern Pacific or AT&SF diesels and expect people to line up for them? If I was a stockholder, I'd say that they weren't exploring new markets. Likewise with MLT: They're working on their third Southern Pacific locomotive set, have an SP route in release, and have a Burlington Northern locomotive set available as well. None of these products present any interest from where I sit. On the other hand, they've had exactly three Eastern railroad products, all of which I readily purchased and enjoy to this day, along with Michigan Iron Ore.That ain't to say I'm some sort of freeware fanatic. I readily coughed up the money for Gaetan Belanger's system, and I've been aiming to send him more, because he serves my interests. The man makes Eastern railroad equipment, does it well, and does it cheaply on a nifty business model. Ditto Marc Nelson: I've spent a fair amount of money there, because his F-units come made for railroads that interest me. That doesn't mean that I don't recognize objective limits on the abilities of the relative companies. A development house somewhere in Canada or in California can't just hop in its company vehicle and research say the finer points of coal-handling at the NSR's Lambert's Point facility or wherever CSX loads its foreign-bound coal, after all. Likewise, perhaps Michigan Iron Ore, The Bridge Line and Sandpatch were financial losers, but I'd be a lot more concerned about the situation Mr. Garber describes if something other than the Southern Pacific/Santa Fe fan base was being served. 3DTS & MLT are both chasing the same market, and this gets to be problematic. Technological superiority and flawless artistry do not automatically guarantee success. If it did, we'd all be wondering how the British Aerospace/Aerospatiale Concorde Mk. 3 would stack up against the Boeing 2747. Instead, we're watching an aesthetic eyesore dubbed 'Airbus 380' waddle forth to dominate (!@#$) the passenger jetliner market. The lesson is clear: If people won't pay for Concorde, stop building Concorde. Build the Airbus.** Ende.* A tipping point may have been that Roy Chaffin/Jan Visser donationware R4D. ** As much as that galls me to use that company's name...

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Norfolk & Western’s Radford Division, Pulaski District: Who needs the Marias Pass?

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Three Thoughts:1.
Quote--
"many long winded posts by our resident great coconut tribal chief"
--EndQuoteThat was bloody funny Rich!2.
BTW, just thinking out loud here... Kudos to keeping this thread informative, relevant, civil, and intelligent. Give me more of this on the forums ANY day.3.
Regarding the post by NW_611. Your thoughts on flightsimming sounded like they could have come out of my own mouth. They echo almost to a tee why I decided to stop following the series after FS2002. No more purchases for me, and no more contributions. I'll stick with what I have until the cows come home.(You may know some of my work: http://www.salasnet.com/fs/index.html)

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-16-04 AT 01:27 AM (EDT)

Hi folks,I don't normally get involved in these types of posts, but one thing came to mind when auto manufacturing was mentioned. The reference was that customers don't or shouldn't have to care about the costs to manufacture or R&D the product. However, in my mind, trying to compare the auto industry and the MSTS add-on vendor seems a bit strange. The auto industry has to deal with its pain and high R&D costs, but the market for autos is HUGE! They get to pass those costs on (as all companies do) to a much larger audience which means that the individual incremental costs are low. However, with the very small MSTS market, those relative R&D costs also have to be passed on--this causes the price to be a bit more than maybe we would like. There was a comment that that the auto industry just absorbs these costs....there is no such thing....they pay them, and they get them back ultimately by selling lots of cars, or they go out of business. This has been an interesting thread.Bryce

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I'm reminded of the old joke which asks, "How many union musicians does it take to play ‘The Night Before Christmas?'"
Ans: "Forty-seven: One to do the work and the other forty-six to stand around going, ‘I could do that.'"Well, but ... and ... I myself and I could craft activities, trains and routes. I could. I know I could. And it would only take me oh ... months and months ... if I paid myself at minimum wage over the course ... I'd certainly end up paying more than forty some odd dollars.And my product wouldn't be as good as some of the polished ware we get "here..." (And there)Or: The guy that came to fix the furnace only tapped it with a monkey wrench, and the bill was for $96. You know the drill.Yuh $46 is steep, but it is still a bargain. That's what I think.I still like Lintworld though ... for bullet proof operation and of coure the old / new ever evolving Port Ogden ...The new computer here has frame rates up through the roof! Va va va voom! Very respectfullyjivajiva (President Club Services)

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--Quote:
"The guy that came to fix the furnace only tapped it with a monkey wrench, and the bill was for $96."
--EndQuoteYou don't get charged $96 for the tap... you get charged whatever he wants because he's the only one that knows EXACTLY which wrench to do the tapping with.

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One musnt forget the research that goes into these projects too...I know ive spent hundrends of hours researching heavy industries such as Steelmills, Oil and chemical refineries, and others as well.texture development is another time consuming prospect..particualarly when you dont have access to prototypes to photograph in which case you must either "draw/paint an texture by hand that must be photo-realistic in this day and age...or put together photo-elemnts to create "composite" textures which I have found to be time-consuming as well.all this before one can begin in their 3D program of choice adds up to many, many hours of work which equates to slim if any profits for many payware developers....in the future as payware developers build a "library" of textures, 3D "parts" and completed route objects and terrain textures...then, perhaps, selling customs routes and addon software can truly become profitable.Longhairedwizard

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Finally got to the bottom of things here on the ol' post mobile. IMHO there is one simple, yet important lesson to be learned by all of you reading this reply... My damn eyes HURT%$**&%!
Buy it, or don't! Tadaaa!!
(WP713) S.L.W.
www.SACRAMENTOLOCOMOTIVEWORKS.com

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Just finished running the "Roots" with 4 Cab Forwards to Caliente from Bakersfield! $42 is nothing compared to the quality of this package. Despite being a diehard diesel fan, this experience adds a whole new dimension to my train-simming--which started, by the way, with some practice with 3751 (in anticipation of the Cab Forwards). The rolling stock alone is pure bliss considering the dearth of old equipment on the general market.Great job 3DTS! At this rate, I will have plenty to occupy my days, as I wait for the Surfliner....Dave Peterson
"Life is not a Waiting Room"

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