A sorry state of affairs

OK folks... I am at my wits end. I have to start by saying I am rapidly losing faith in the TS community. Commnunity... hmmm... have some of you forgotten the meaning of that word? Do some of you even know what it meant to begin with? Well let's re-educate some of you -Community - 1 : a unified body of individuals. That was the first definition.. others included a group of individuals with common interests. Well if the common interest is gouging and snide remarks, scorn, a lack of integrity, dishonesty, pettiness, distrust, and an overall lack of consideration for one-another then I think we are a "community" indeed. There is a sickening trend occuring here and spilling over into other forums as well. Some have an iron grip on what is said or allowed to be said, others more liberal... I need not go into details about the trend(s)...everyone has seen them, been party to them, or instigated them in one way or another. Honestly the trend is alarming. I would like to address a few issues right here and now. First off, Chad (ssw_96) was selected, by me, to assist in the testing of the UP pack and future MLT releases. Why there are some out there that think themselves a more suitable candidate, for whatever reason, is simply beyond me. I, for one, think him abundanlty qualified and above all else - humble. My brother has been assisting myself and MLT for a long time now and I don't see anyone outwardly accusing me of nepitism! sheesh! People can jump to conclusions about what they THINK is going on but in truth they will never know. And it's none of their business. Let's not forget what it is we do here.. we play a train simulator. I think the worst thing about a forum is the lack of simple human interaction on a personal level. Remember there is a face on the other end of your jabs, jibes, and biting remarks. People start to show their true colors when something like this happens and it's scary...seriously.Next would be critiques of others works. Hey if you (the critic) think you can do a better job then by all means, knock yourself out. You show them how it's done! No...? Then be constructive in your remarks. It's all about approach and tact. Some lack the delicate art of being sensitive to another person's feelings. This subject has been voiced before so everyone knows what they should do or tried to do in the future in regards to this topic. BE NICE for crying out loud! Is that really so hard?! I know there are those that some regard as nuisances that make inane posts but by perpetuating such threads with further scorn and disdain you mean only to sink to that level. Next is the openly ignorant advertisements of piracy. The Moderators should be more sensitive to such posts and remove them at first site. This is in no way an attack on the Mods of the TS forum. I just wish to request a more strict policing of such posts. If some jackass is moronic enough to make such a post requesting to have sent to them materials of a protected nature that person or thread be stopped, deleted, and or the individual banned. No if's and's or but's. To allow such threads is to condone their actions. I really only want to say to some people - grow-up, be nice, be mature, and have fun. I have met so many wonderful people that I am proud to call my friends. Most all of the content creators receive so much support and adulation and deservedly so. It's hard work that requires a lot of personal time and effort. People forget that. It seems lately that they don't see the work done but the work not done.. if any. But there always seems to be something someone doesn't like... it will always be that way. You really can't please everyone. Which is why the work that I do I do to my satisfaction. I can't tell you how much I appreciate everyone's support of my work, MLT, and the many other developers for MSTS. There is so much good work being done out there. But in point of fact the limits of MSTS are being pushed. What works for some may not work for others. It's as simple as that. The developers for MSTS will continue to push MSTS's limits whether or not your system can handle it. Until a new sim is produced it's all we have. MSTS posts system requirements on the box... since there is no new technology for the sim we are forced to push the limits of what we have to work with. Which, by today's standards, is just downright crap. I will end my self-satisfying tirade now by saying let's not forget what it is we do here. We are hobbyist, enthusiasts, and on occassion - friends. =|GoldenPig
visit me at www.dannybeck.com
www.mapleleaftracks.com

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A sorry state of affairs... [View All], goldenpig, 11:00 PM, Aug-11-04, (0) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., BNSF4723, Aug-11-04, 11:08 PM, (1) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., chucksc, Aug-11-04, 11:10 PM, (2) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., Dash9_Man, Aug-11-04, 11:57 PM, (3) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., NW 1218, Aug-12-04, 00:12 AM, (4) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., DougG, Aug-12-04, 00:13 AM, (5) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., edwardk, Aug-12-04, 00:18 AM, (6) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., BLW_1946, Aug-12-04, 00:56 AM, (7) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., sstyrnol, Aug-12-04, 01:41 AM, (8) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., bnsf1959, Aug-12-04, 03:11 AM, (9) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., driver89, Aug-12-04, 04:51 AM, (10) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., ssw_96, Aug-12-04, 06:25 AM, (11) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., sstyrnol, Aug-12-04, 06:36 AM, (12) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., Claude350, Aug-12-04, 07:31 AM, (13) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., ATF1224, Aug-12-04, 05:09 PM, (29) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., Coonskin, Aug-12-04, 08:30 AM, (16) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., DRGWK36, Aug-12-04, 11:05 AM, (25) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., OTTODAD, Aug-12-04, 07:56 AM, (14) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., SVTS, Aug-12-04, 08:10 AM, (15) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., chosenfrozen44, Aug-12-04, 08:53 AM, (17) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., CPR_Malice_96th, Aug-12-04, 08:58 AM, (18) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., sstyrnol, Aug-12-04, 09:03 AM, (19) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., dti407, Aug-12-04, 09:12 AM, (20) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., ssw_96, Aug-12-04, 09:39 AM, (21) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., century242, Aug-12-04, 03:51 PM, (27) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., Macster, Aug-12-04, 09:41 AM, (22) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., LRC_lover_9th, Aug-12-04, 09:52 AM, (23) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., sniper297, Aug-12-04, 10:53 AM, (24) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., sinclair97, Aug-12-04, 01:37 PM, (26) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., goldenpig, Aug-12-04, 04:37 PM, (28) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., sniper297, Aug-12-04, 05:46 PM, (30) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., centerail4, Aug-12-04, 06:24 PM, (31) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., goldenpig, Aug-12-04, 06:35 PM, (32) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., Busdriver, Aug-12-04, 07:47 PM, (33) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., BlakeTyner, Aug-12-04, 07:52 PM, (34) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., sniper297, Aug-12-04, 07:59 PM, (35) RE: A sorry state of affairs..., Macster, Aug-12-04, 08:34 PM, (36)

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All I have to say is well said sir, well said. Thats all that needs to be said really.

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-11-04 AT 11:11 PM (EST)

FWIW Chad (ssw_96) has also been asked to help Beta Test our Shark nose package...I support Danny 100% on this one....This crap gets real old real fast!Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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>I support Danny 100% on this one....
>
>This crap gets real old real fast! amen!
-Sam

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Danny, I admire a man who can sit here and spend a few minutes of his time voicing his opinion in a public forum. You put your words verey well with out losing your cool. Verey.................., no, damn well said Danny, damn well said!

John Means
MASW Founder and President
The MASW site is www.freewebs.com/klwtrainsim

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I agree with much of what is said. However, like all entertainment and information.......you can always "change the channel" (Not read the threads)Yes, I know I am a 'little poster' here but...... you have to remember in this email world. Often these threads are not articulated well. It is hard through "email" (forum thread) to present ones inner tone feeling. You may think people are upset or happy or whatever....... most do not know how someone REALLY feels in their posts. It is not face to face or over the phone.... You miss the subtlties of the thread sometimes......Done with the preaching.........cutting myself off.My only wish is to see someday the Flagler Route to Key West.......

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I certainly remember how this forum use to be when MSTS first came out but unfortunately we are no where close to how we use to be at this point in time. There was a chance to get that community feeling back when MSTS 2 was still being worked on, but I believe the cancellation blew it so to speak. It will take some doing to get the community spirit back.Edward K.

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I guess i missed the furor that led to Danny's post I was having too much fun running the Modoc Turn activity on the Cascades route, despite the fact that my computer specs are like the proverbial 98 lb weakling in the old Charles Atlas ads... how many other old fa - er, gentlemen of experience and wisdom remember those?amid all the clamor and complaints about the route's supposed shortcomings, I'd like to say a very loud THANK YOU to Danny and the rest of the MLT for a great route with many enjoyable activities (I've successfully completed 4 so far) and an incredible package of sounds, locomotives and rolling stock...I hope we as a society are not becoming as mean-spirited and avaricious as some of the posts here and elsewhere would indicate...In fact, if you look around, quite the opposite is true, but the flame wars and pettiness always get blown way out of proportion, while the quiet goodness of folks like Cyndi Richards is taken for granted until after she is no longer with us...Danny, thanks again for all you've done to make my leisure hours interesting and enjoyable...Tim B
Tim Baldwin
Buffalo NYMilepost 5 on the Buffalo Belt Line
CSX - NS - CP - CN

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Danny & company!Thanks for your time posting this reminder. It is indeed sad where this is all heading. Even more, while this forum has become very much a free-fire zone, that other forums become affected too. Worst example is the Facing Point Media forum, but also at the MLT forum. The smaller fora surely have the advantage of being able to react faster to this type of threads but still, it isn't really necessary.I cannot and I will not say, that I am completely without guilt. I have initiated my own share of flame wars. My policy is to say what I think and while I mostly keep it back or private for sake of the forum's peace, sometimes I absolutely have to shoot off a volley.I agree, criticism should be definitely allowed, but in reasonable amounts and constructive most of all. But for me, of equal importance is the fact, that the person responsible for the criticism takes that criticism as a man (or woman) and deals with it. He can either ignore it (if he thinks it is unjustified), reply to it (discuss it with those criticising) or merely correct the points criticised.No model is perfect, but quite a lot of the works presented here look at least good, in a lot of cases awesome. Let me pick out a well disputed example: Paul Fowlers GP30s. They are a good model, no doubt. There are points to be improved, especially regarding the fact that it is a PAYWARE model. In fact, producing payware, should make the author even more aware of quality. This very model aside, there are still a lot of guys out there making models, such as routes, locos, cars etc. Unfortunately not as much as there used to be. This is of course due to the facts Danny described above.In the forum of the "other sim", I saw MSTS described as a "dead duck" yesterday. While all others here would sincerely protest, I must say, that the danger is there, if the trend described here continues.I try not to criticise other peoples behaviour here too much, so I'd like to stress, what I can do instead. If I criticise other's works, I will do so in a reasonable matter. I will NOT step back because it is the one or the other's works, everyone deserves the same treatment. Furthermore, personal attacks won't be originated from me, but if anyone "shoots" at me, I'll give the same back... Let's hope we ALL get our act together!Cheers!Sebastian

Visit my "sebastian's trains pages" at http://www.freewebs.com/sstyrnol ...

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I have to agree with you. Amen and very well said. Ken Plaza

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Oh dear,
This post brings up so many old memories and emotions it’s not funny. I remember joining this community back when MSTS was released and we only had a couple of hundred members. Sept 11th hadn’t even happened yet, and people we still trying to figure out how to build mods for the game, thanks to the lack of documentation it took a while. Back then you could have stick a stick in a pile of poop and called it a new model. People would have been happy as it was something new and interesting for the sim. Back then people we emailing each other like crazy trying to figure things out in order to release something that would enhance others enjoyment of the game. I remember emailing people like John Fowlis, Cyrus, Marc Nelson, Xacto, Tim Court, Tim Booth, Jim Stevens and so many other people, some of whom are still part of the community and some of whom have thrown their hands up in the air and have sadly left the community forever.
When I got started with MSTS as I said it was all about the community, then after several months things changed, and it started to become all about what people wanted. I remember seeing posts about how someone released something new, and so and so would say it’s great, and others would say that the stuff was horrible and not worth the polygons it was written on. I remember seeing a post which basically said “I demand perfection and nothing less”, even though it was for a freeware model.
Several months later the LTV mining route hit the shelves, and their was a variety of responses to that route. Some people loved it and some people hated it. Some people loved it because it was something new for MSTS and others hated it, some purely for the fact that it was payware. Everything for MSTS should be free the argument went. As time went on some excellent products developed for MSTS, some free, some not. Sadly as time went on the MSTS community got more and more divided, and the atmosphere got worse and worse.
Plans for MSTS 2 were announced, and people started to voice their opinions. “It better have this”, “it better do that”, “why don’t they do this or that”, and so the questions went. The MSTS 2 forums were a nasty place. Then MSTS 2 got cancelled and that sent the whole community into a tail spin. “How can they do that”, “they can’t do that”, nothing but more anger and more frustration.
Then along came the announcements for TMST and TATS, which started of as words of encouragement as people rejoiced the fact that someone else was picking up the ball and running with it. Sadly since then, I’ve seen the posts turn from “cool” to “I’d better see this” and “they’d better do that”. I’ve come to the conclusion that train simulators are a no win situation for anybody. The prevailing attitude seems to be “I want, so you better do it”.
This attitude really saddens me, MSTS used to be about the community and how a simulator could really enhance people’s memories and bring back a piece of their past. I remember way back when, I build a model of an old British steam engine. Looking back on it now, it rather lacked in appearance compared to today’s models, but none the less it served it’s purpose. I still remember getting an email from an MSTS user who said he’d downloaded on of the models. His father-in-law sadly suffered from Alzheimer’s, but used to work for the railroads many years ago and had actually driven the steam engine in question. Well that had downloaded the model, and while it wasn’t enough to satisfy all MSTS users, it was enough to bring back memories to this old man. With pride I still remember that MSTS user telling me how he and his father-in-law drove the wheels of this engine that weekend. While it wasn’t enough to please everyone, it was enough to bring back memories to an old man with Alzheimer’s. For me that story still symbolizes what MSTS is all about. To me MSTS isn’t about the fanatics who know exactly how many rivets as SD40-2 has, but rather it’s about letting people live a part of their memories or a piece of railroad history.
For those of you who don’t know me, or weren’t around in the beginning, I can only hope you read this and can appreciate what MSTS is all about.
As I said when I started with MSTS, I was nothing more than someone who loved railroads, and knew nothing about computer games (Except for playing them). Thanks to the community I was able to develop my skills along the way, and have worked on a variety of projects, some payware and some freeware. Regardless of which the ultimate goal has always been the same, to enhance the enjoyment of the end user.
I realize that people have different expectations of what MSTS can offer them, but I strongly feel that people should keep an open mind and enjoy the sim for what it is. An escape, and a way to enjoy something that they probably wouldn’t be able to do otherwise. I moved from freeware to payware for one simple factor, it was a way of letting people enjoy a product that was more or less complete and ready to go. You wouldn’t have to search the various download sites to find a specific locomotive or route to enjoy something, but rather it was a way of letting someone enjoy a piece of railroad history the way they wanted. Therefore I think that people need to go back to the way it was, and enjoy MSTS for what it is. There are many great people who have contributed to the further enjoyment of this product, whether it be such freeware producers as NALW, or a payware producer such as 3DT, 3DTS, or MLT. Each one is trying to produce something that will further enhance our enjoyment of railroading and allow us to do things that we would have thought impossible a few years ago.
Cheers,
James.

"Well, you know boys, a nuclear reactor is a lot like a women. You just have to read the manual and press the right buttons." Homer Simpson

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Well to give you a small taste of what danny is talking about. This is just a small part of a conversation I had on yahoo messenger with another trainsim.com member:Today August 10th
csxt8000: then when a no named idiot like you ends up from out of nowhere getting in a spot I tried to for months, that REALLY gets me rialled
killa_kadaffi: thank you for saying that
That really got me pissed off. I didnt know that someone would think of me as a no named idiot. Just because I am not a major contributor to msts, some think of me as a no name. I dont think thats right. The reason I told him thank you is because he just back up what I have been talking about with danny. But I would like to thank Danny and Chuck for giving me this opporitunity to beta test some of the finest models availible for msts. And I hope we can all get back to the realization that this is just a game and it doesnt get that serious. Thank you all.

The best railroad there ever was

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Well,my experience is, that there are people who are wanting to become a beta tester in order to get their hands on stuff for free. Only very rarely it is appreciated that beta-testing is hard work, running the same thing over and over again, just to make sure an error is not just random, but recreates himself at the same opportunity over and over again.Personally, I am glad you are able to betatest Chuck's and Danny's creations, since I think you have quite some knowledge on American railways and MSTS in general.Your last sentence is of immense importance. However I have seen this phenomenon on various forum about various games. I wonder what causes people, even adults, to fight over a game. Perhaps it is the fact that they are so proud of their own creations or whatever.It is however unavoidable to prevent the seperation into groups in a community that large, there will always be negative sentiments. It is however up to us to stay reasonable and live with each other. Cheers!Sebastian

Visit my "sebastian's trains pages" at http://www.freewebs.com/sstyrnol ...

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-12-04 AT 07:32 AM (EST)

Danny that was well put.I can tell you that beta testing is hard and time consuming.Being a beta tester for NALW takes alot of my time.There are times when I'm just plain worn out and don't even want to look at the dang computer.Chad I think you have most of the community backing you on this one.BTW please clean out that mailbox.Been trying to reach you.We've got work to do sonny boy.Claude Debnam NS Piedmont Division Raleigh East

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>csxt8000Hah, so typical from Trey Biscoe.. JTB1985 here on the forums.

Jake Mensel

The Norfolk Southern Winston-Salem District

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James said:"To me MSTS isn’t about the fanatics who know exactly how many rivets as SD40-2 has, but rather it’s about letting people live a part of their memories or a piece of railroad history."Whoa. You nailed it exactly for me too. This is one of the greatest rewards within this hobby for me. The returns on MSTS payware are, frankly, negatively disproportionate to the work involved. There HAS to be other motivational factors besides financial in order to persist doing it. The above is one of my motivations that spurs me on.
Andre MingVisit VSC's temporary web page at: http://www.vscalecreations.comVisit VSC's Forum at: http://www.3DTrains.com

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James - I like what you've said about the ability of MSTS to bring the past to life. That's what keeps me moving in this hobby.I don't know the details that led to the original post, and since I wasn't involved, I don't need to know. But I would like to say a few things in support of this community. Danny's probably got a right to be upset about some folks' behavior, given the amazing amount and quality of work he's done which leaves him open to the all-too frequent sniping and poaching. But I'd have to disagree that the "the common interest is gouging and snide remarks, scorn, a lack of integrity, dishonesty, pettiness, distrust, and an overall lack of consideration for one-another..." I know that was said in a conditional sense, so I'd like to point out some of the ways in which those are not the qualities of most of the members here. Just think of the responses we've seen lately about the tough losses of Shawn D and BNSF Lady, and in support of the gentleman who posted about his daughter being diagnosed with leukemia. Most of us are not nearly as talented as the top designers and builders like Danny - we've been able to achieve what we can only through the continued help and moral support from one another. I've seen a number of younger members who came in like a ball of fire, demanding this and that and criticizing pretty much everything, but who have learned how to interact with the group and are now contributors themselves. I have "virtual" friends that I've never seen, but who I've had the privilege of meeting through this forum.There are definitely some people here that I would rather not participated. But in general, this is a good group. Hang in there, guys! The nasties don't have the patience to stay with much of anything, so the best approach is to treat them as the spam they are and ignore them.Andy

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Hi Danny !I must applaud you for having the courage to speak out in this manner and concur with every word of what you say !Anybody of a lesser MSTS reputation would have been lynched doing so ! It is sad that people have to behave they way they do, most not being satisfied with what they have got, intolerant about each other views, politics, religion, way of life and just simply can not live in peace with each other.I do strive for perfection and try to motivate suppliers of what I buy or use to provide it, making every effort myself to do the same for recipients of what I do. In many cases perfection not being forthcoming, I try to make improvements myself, my car being one example I had tuned for better performance and writing my own Accounting Software not getting from Commercial Software what I wanted from it.I am still hanging in their, sometimes feeling that what I am trying to achieve is wasted on many and unless creators can get appreciation for their efforts and I don't mean in a material way, they will cease "Creating" !!!Hope that all this is not stopping developers of FREE Add-Ons to carry on against the odds, throwing in the towel, like Ralf Schölke of WUPPER EXPRESS did once before.Take Care and do what you do for your own satisfaction, a job well done !O t t o

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I hate to tell you Danny, but a public forum of this nature will always be this way. Not everyone can be pleased, and there will always be somebody out there who thinks they deserve to know everything.Your right though, it is just a game, and sometimes even I forget that.Your comments come within hours of a thread I added to where someone asked about the Cascades route. If some of your comments were directed towards that, well, all I can tell you is Cascades is payware, something I paid for, and someone asked for my thoughts on it, and I gave them a very honest review of the overall product, in which your contribution makes the Cascades route what it is. Bareable.I'm not going to take the time to further address the issue, becasue it doesn't need to be further addressed. I still will buy future MLT routes without a doubt, and hopefully MLT will look back at some of the pitfalls with Cascades and make sure they don't show up on future routes. As for your train packs ,well I can say is your work leaves me speachless. I am not sure if there will ever be another engine on the point of my trains other than that SD 70.Obviously there are many issues on your mind today, and I hope they sort themselves out in time so that you can resume your enjoyment of this hobby.Chris Bogley
Syracuse New Yorkwww.msnusers.com/cnytrains
www.msnusers.com/ashleyphotography

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Having been a layout moderator at a good sized model railroad club in the Chicago area during the early to mid 1980`s.....this bickering.....childish behavior....plain jealousy and general rudeness toward others by a growing number of members is why I left the "club" atmosphere never to return anywhere again. The club folded soon after all the contributing members left. Many on this forum that cause these problems are "sucker punchers"....they hit and run ..... only to watch the battle from afar that they started. I appreciate what was started here a long time ago......I think this was and still could be one of the neatest things around involving trains and the modelling of them. The statement that there is a face at the end of the barbed remark is an excellant one.... how many troublemakers take refuge in the fact that the people they hurt by comments can`t reach through the PC and kick their ass like they so truly deserve. IF MLT people, or NALW...TKW..any of the people that supply such great models and things want a specific person to test their work......its their choice.....they created it. Respect people.....simple respect.........something that appears to be a lost art and something that parents seem to not be teaching their kids anymore.CG

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Danny,This is by far the best post I have read here in quite some time.Great choice in SSW_96 btw.Ya know, maybe this time because you came in here with good intent I won't harp on you to get " Back to work on Dundas ! "However, If you don't have anything else to do maybe that wouldn't be such a bad idea !Later

Tim Kent – 96th_Malice - Winnipeg Canada

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Haha!!! This is a good moment to suggestLIGHTEN UP!!!THE WORLD IS SO NICE TO HAVE SUCH SAD THOUGHTS! Cheers!Sebastian

Visit my "sebastian's trains pages" at http://www.freewebs.com/sstyrnol ...

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Well said Danny.

Greg Zoll

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BTW you all. Ya'll keep in ya'll prayers and wish me luck. I got a invitation to a interview with the UP for train service out of Little Rock. SO ya'll be thinkin bout me next Wednesday on the 18th.

The best railroad there ever was

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Chad,
All I got to say is About Damned Time!!!!!!!
When you get hired, I will welcome you to your new job with UP.......Building America....One siding at a timeRegards,
Erik Pierson
Sacramento, Cawww.sacramentolocomotiveworks.com

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Well said Danno; however I have to say this, because it'll simply happen again.
Train-sim.com has well over 6000 users if you include the File LIbrary. The forum alone has nearly 3000 members. Managing, maintaining and moderating a forum of this size has it's draw backs vs something like 3DTrains.com. The smaller the forum, the easier to maintain, but there is a couple other factors that play a role to all the flames, fights and assortment of other problems.Age.This site has people all from Ages 10 to 70 years old, all with different views, attitudes and emotions and they are all over the world. One person could type something out and not mean any harm because of the way they talk however we would justify it as harsh and cruel and thoughtless. Alot of people complain about spelling and call somebody out if they mis-spelled something. So What? What if they can't spell it/haven't learned it. They might have a disablity that renders them from properly saying something correct. I've seen it before, I've worked with people as well that had something simular.All forums always have a different note, a different tone, but all have one goal in mind, to provide information. We've provided tons and tons of information. Could the flames be accounted because people are sick and tired of the game and is frustrated? Might be. Whatever the reason is, there is always going to be some type of fight or disagreement. Nothing we can do. We can lock it or delete it, then we look like the bad guys. We use stricter rules, we get yelled at and called unjust because were simply doing "our job"No matter how many times somebody tries to clean up a forum, if it is one or two people. It'll never work without a community effect; and i'm not talking about a couple of the vets here, EVERYBODY needs to provide something to help alittle, because that is where it starts...a little bit at a time.I know I myself have slipped up a couple of times this month alone, mainly because of frustrations with people on here and would be more then happy to see them gone, however I am going to state this for the record; just because I am a moderator, does not mean I am not going to voice my opinion and thoughts on a specific model, object, shape, etc. I haven't since I have been moderating and i'm not going to change it for anybody. I've toned it done quite a bit but that is as far as it will go.Hopefully the process of cleaning up the forum will happen, it's improved here and there, and gone downhill. I already know the reason why, but I am not going to go into the details on that.

Brian E. Bundridge
http://Evergreentracks.tk

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Exactly. That's why people like me come in and try to make this forum a better place. Some people forget what this forum's about: a simulator. We just want to play and have fun and talk about the simulator and the stuff in it and the downloads for it, not get criticised for what we think. Because that's what a forum's for. Expressing your feelings about things. The mods do their best but sometimes they can't cope with everthing.

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Well, once again I gotta play devil's advocate here. My first objection to this type of post is the "HUH?" factor:"I guess i missed the furor that led to Danny's post"So did I, and I suspect most people reading this won't have a clue either."There is a sickening trend occuring here and spilling over into other forums as well. Some have an iron grip on what is said or allowed to be said, others more liberal... I need not go into details about the trend(s)...everyone has seen them, been party to them, or instigated them in one way or another. Honestly the trend is alarming."I'm not alarmed, I haven't seen the trend. Quite the opposite, I don't see a tenth the number of nukes there were a couple of years ago."Next would be critiques of others works."Haven't seen that either, I BEG for criticism, the ruder the better, and don't get any. How am I supposed to improve anything if all I get is the impression that everything is just rosy?!"Next is the openly ignorant advertisements of piracy."Once in a blue moon some Kewl d00d comes along asking for a "crackit" code for something, other than that I haven't seen ANY ignorant advertisments of piracy."It is indeed sad where this is all heading. Even more, while this forum has become very much a free-fire zone, that other forums become affected too."I hadn't noticed a free fire zone, somebody's having a war and forgot to invite me?"part of a conversation I had on yahoo messenger with another trainsim.com member:"EGAD, Watson, a CLUE! I don't HAVE Yahoo messenger, wasn't party to the conversation, and if it's happening on other forums or in message exchcanges, what the hell does it have to do with train-sim.com?"I really only want to say to some people - grow-up, be nice, be mature, and have fun. I have met so many wonderful people that I am proud to call my friends." Hold the phone, if the overwhelming majority of the members here are jerks, how did you end up with "MANY WONDERFUL" friends? You're not very discriminating in your choice of friends."Most all of the content creators receive so much support and adulation and deservedly so. It's hard work that requires a lot of personal time and effort. People forget that. It seems lately that they don't see the work done but the work not done.. if any. But there always seems to be something someone doesn't like... it will always be that way. You really can't please everyone."Now I'm totally baffled, "MOST" receive "SO MUCH SUPPORT", that sure seems out of synch with "everyone has seen them, been party to them, or instigated them in one way or another".
Tim Baldwin had some interesting perceptions;"I hope we as a society are not becoming as mean-spirited and avaricious as some of the posts here and elsewhere would indicate..."Keyword is "SOME", if it was indeed "MOST" then that would indicate a trend, but "SOME" posts can't possibly reflect the overall tone of anything. One small cloud in the sky does NOT indicate heavy thunderstorms to windward."In fact, if you look around, quite the opposite is true, but the flame wars and pettiness always get blown way out of proportion, while the quiet goodness of folks like Cyndi Richards is taken for granted until after she is no longer with us..."Now we're getting somewhere, focus on any negative you find, concentrate on it to the exlusion of all else, naturally it's gonna get blown way out of proportion. As he said, MY perception is "quite the opposite is true". While your post lamenting this alarming trend is very well put, to me it seems to apply to some other dimension, cuz I sure don't see it here.As Brian said so profoundly, it's a matter of perspective.The optimist sees the glass as half full, the pessimist sees it as half empty, the paranoiac is convinced that the glass will be knocked off the table any minute now.

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Now you have gone and spoiled it all Jim by saying something sensible and reasonable; goddammit man, people are entitled to a "storm-in-teacup" drama without some killjoy putting commonsense into it! There is a perfectly logical explanation to that group we call the "criticizers": the group that hits and run. And for which we all have to take a collective responsibility. "Why?" I hear you ask, because for one reason or another they ARE unable to contribute in the same way some of us can. The criticizers want to be more constructively involved making contributions, but cannot because they are shut out by those of us who are too busy making cartwheels to notice. Of course they get resentful, and lash out in a negative way, and will continue to do so until an active measure of communication towards them is established. There are too many guys who just want to talk about their trains, and not about other people's considerations.There is another (very real) group that is also shut out that most of us don't know about, and they are the very ill, and the very poor who will never get a chance to know what the Cascades is really like because they literally can't afford CDs like the Cascades, because they can't earn a living and are bankrupted my the Medicare system. I have the impression that the prevailing attitude to those who are unable to afford these CDs is Tough!Mike

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you say you haven't seen many of these trends that have transpired... do you actually read any of these posts? And if it's so limited in occurance then why are so many in agreement? I am an optimist my friend. I have made a number of good friends here as I stated. I do not focus on the negative if you knew me as a person you'd know I am one of the jolliest people you'd probably ever meet. I am very cautious about the friends I choose. You seemed to have taken what I have said here and picked it apart. It wasn't meant for that. I ended my post with the mention of the word "tirade." So leave it at that. Play devil's advocate if you wish but it really is not necessary here to make such a concerted effort to contradict what I feel about the direction the TS forum is headed. And it's just that... my opinion. But you have demonstrated exactly what I was talking about... arguing for the sake of arguing. You could just have easily said... "ahh interesting point - I don't necessarily agree - but ok." Nope.. .pick pick pick. =|GoldenPig
visit me at www.dannybeck.com
www.mapleleaftracks.com

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I read a lot of posts, I taught Evelyn Wood everything she knows. I even did a search for "ssw_96" in all forums for the last month to see if I could locate what you were talking about, one question about him being a beta tester, one question about non disclosure agreements, no thermonuclear exchanges that I could spot. You got a link to these flamewars? As for why so many are in agreement, "so many" is about a dozen, and half of those qualify with "however". I gotta disagree completely, I don't think the trainsim community is heading for the crapper, it looks just fine to me.

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I agree with Jim completely. It's doing just fine.
Sonny Powell
Roberts Rail Services
Servicing the North Eastern Railroad Corporation
and the MSTS Communityhttp://www.nerx.us/
http://www.vnerr.com/
http://www.glarr.com/
http://www.vleu.org/

n/a

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-12-04 AT 06:52 PM (EST)

that's your opinion and that's just fine... this is mine. Yet I entitle you to yours w/o disecting your statements... interesting concept eh?=|GoldenPig
visit me at www.dannybeck.com
www.mapleleaftracks.com

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Folks,I am going to drive a nice train over some hills and across some valleys knowing that I learned almost everything I know about this "crazy" game from the folks on this board. Thanks for that! I certainly enjoy it here, and want to support it any way I can by being helpful and by being a (hopefully) positively contributing member of the community.Let's all just have fun! That is the point of this whole thing.Bryce

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As another fellow who's been here since the beginning, my impression is that the nastiness has followed a bell curve, with the peak sometime in late '02/early '03 or so. Considering the amount of members today, I think we're doing quite well.I think Jim's hit the nail on the head.Blake Harris
Manager/Engineer, Jefferson and Cypress Bayou Railway
http://www.jeffersonrailway.com

Vice Dean, Limbaugh Institute for Advanced Conservative Studies

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Hey, I'm not trying to put you down, but you're entitled to your opinion and it has to go unchallenged? If I was to make a post saying in effect that maple leaf tracks stinks on ice, I most certainly wouldn't expect everyone to blindly agree with me, especially if I didn't provide any evidence to back up my opinion. I like train-sim.com, it's my favorite forum, and I honestly don't see what the flap is about. There have been occasional problems, but what I've seen over the last three years is the "trainsim community/forum has gone to the dogs" posts outnumber the actual problem posts by a factor of about 5 to 1. And I don't expect everyone to agree with that either, if you argue against my opinion that don't make you an enemy.

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Discussion has lasted good enough. I'll lock it so it won't flair up into anything worst...Kudos on keeping it cival.

Brian E. Bundridge
http://Evergreentracks.tk

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