Who pulled the plug on HAL9000 in PO&N?

LAST EDITED ON Aug-11-04 AT 00:11 AM (EST)

All AI trains have stopped. There's 1, waiting for a train, who's waiting for a train, who's waiting for ANOTHER train...and it just keeps going!I got a 10-car Chemical train with 2 GP38-2's pulling them to get to Anderson from Foulis (I picked them up at the refinery) to drop them off.On top of it. The train who's waiting for a train, who's waiting for a train...etc, is blocking ME from getting to Anderson(by clogging up the only track I can go on!I saved the game at this point...and quitting the sim isn't resetting the AI traffic.What can I do to reset the traffic without having to redo the entire thing all over again?And it's not only there...ALL AI traffic has come to a standstill (I started noticing this outside of Newcastle, that 1 route that goes north to Armstrong. There was a train stopped on the cliff there. Didn't see nothing else until now. Perhaps HAL spawned too many trains at once and now doesn't know what to do with them...crud...or I cannot go north in that direction).However, in Armstrong, I didn't see any stopped traffic. Saw a train heading around a bend to the left and into a tunnel.
So perhaps only in cirtain places are they stopped.-BeaverMon, AKA Ben-

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You know I can't do that, Dave..., sniper297, Aug-11-04, 00:57 AM, (1) Heah! Stuck trains or not, I DID it! :-D, BeaverMon, Aug-11-04, 01:14 AM, (2) RE: You know I can't do that, Dave..., CWA13000, Aug-12-04, 09:46 AM, (3) Yep, nope, maybe, I dunno, only when the moon is full.., sniper297, Aug-12-04, 12:19 PM, (4) RE: Yep, nope, maybe, I dunno, only when the moon is fu, BeaverMon, Aug-12-04, 02:47 PM, (5) Leave it to Beaver, sniper297, Aug-12-04, 10:20 PM, (6) RE: Leave it to Beaver, BeaverMon, Aug-12-04, 11:45 PM, (7) RE: Leave it to Beaver, sniper297, Aug-13-04, 00:34 AM, (8) RE: Leave it to Beaver, CWA13000, Aug-13-04, 11:16 AM, (9) RE: Leave it to Beaver, BeaverMon, Aug-13-04, 01:15 PM, (10) Share the wealth!!!, sniper297, Aug-13-04, 02:23 PM, (11) RE: Share the wealth!!!, CWA13000, Aug-14-04, 12:01 PM, (14) RE: Share the wealth!!!, BeaverMon, Aug-14-04, 12:13 PM, (16) I got a little thing, called 'proof', BeaverMon, Aug-13-04, 05:29 PM, (12) RE: I got a little thing, called 'proof', sniper297, Aug-13-04, 08:51 PM, (13) RE: I got a little thing, called 'proof', BeaverMon, Aug-14-04, 12:09 PM, (15)

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HAL is a really fun guy, hey? Well, two possible explanations for this, one is you've stumbled on a bug called "SFNRS", Stop For No Reason Syndrome. First report I've had on that for PO&N 8, but I spent several months trying to cure the problem before uploading version 8, and several more months with the same bug on the current working copy of version 9. So who knows, maybe it's in version 8 too. The other possibility is you may have uncoupled and left some cars on a single track mainline section, blocking a crossover, or not quite clear of a junction switch somewhere. Since all the AI trains follow each other the whole path at 12 minute intervals, when the first one stops the rest are gonna stack up behind. Only cure is don't be a litterbug, watch where you dump off your cars!

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-11-04 AT 01:26 AM (EST)

Actually...I think it was my consist...that 10-car chemical car thing I had that was "clogging up the pipes".Anderson DID get their oil(FINALLY)!! But it wasn't easy. According to that map, there's a bypass off of Fowlis. I took it, backwards. I noticed that all "going to Anderson from the East" trains where stopped, but all "going to Anderson from the West" trains wheren't.Anyway like I said I took the bypass, and was able to bypass the AI trains and FINALLY got to Anderson(yayers)!!Dropped off my consist (don't know HOW this 1 siding was long enough to accept ALL 10 cars!), and pulled back in, as I was saying "Activity Complete...I am done!"...JUST as I was refueling, I saw an eastbound train that was stuck...MOVING though Anderson again!! 1 after the other, was like 30 seconds!
Then they slowed down and stopped again for some reason, but I'm done (not with this route, but with this delivery).I need to count how many cars an AI train can take so to know to ONLY take that many cars(it hasen't happened before UNTIL I had that long-butt consist, so it HAD to be the consist).BTW, about the "parking the wagons" thing. I keep them away from switches and the main line to not be an issue.-BeaverMon, AKA Ben-

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"The other possibility is you may have uncoupled and left
>some cars on a single track mainline section, blocking a
>crossover, or not quite clear of a junction switch
>somewhere. "
I always thought that Hal did not recognise loose consists and would just plow the AI into them causing a derailment end of activity??
Wild Willy the wacko

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Sometimes is a word often associated with MSTS, the only thing KUJU was consistent on was they were consistently inconsistent. HAL recognizes a loose consist as something occupying the block for signal purposes - sometimes. HAL ignores the presence of a loose consist and throws the switch for the AI path anyway - usually - which makes it impossible to go back and pick up any cars you left on the single track main. Sometimes after throwing the switches at both ends of the single track main, he leaves the signal red and the AI train just stops. Other times he clears the signal and the AI train runs thru and crashes into it. Probably depends on timing, position of the loose car(s), and whether or not Mars is conjunct Saturn in Saggitarius or something. Best way is to make sure all cars are clear of the AI/player junction switches before uncoupling, that way you don't need to consult the Psychic Friends Hotline to find out what HAL is gonna do. One guy made an activity for PO&N 5, I think it was "Caboose Roundup", where he accidently left a boxcar on the AI bypass between Northland Grain and Johnsburg. Some people reported getting "Activity ended because your train derailed", others did not get it. Reason why is because if you were near Johnsburg/Northland Grain when the AI train hit that boxcar it derailed, if you were somewhere else the AI train would just ghost thru the boxcar.Beaver, 10 oil tankers isn't a very long train, and you also mentioned "I need to count how many cars an AI train can take", if you're hacking the AI consists that might or might not throw the AI pattern out of kilter. Some people have reported changing AI consists to different engines with umpty-eleven cars with no trouble, others have said that the slightest change to the AI traffic trains will cause everything to stop.

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Sniper, all I know is this. I found out each of the 3 traffic trains has 10 cars (including the engine). So I tried just 9 cars...and I didn't see what I saw before with the stopped AI traffic.-BeaverMon, AKA Ben-

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Well, I dunno, buddy, between the PO&N and Raildriver and the activity editor you're setting a record for problems. Need to consult a witch doctor to remove the curse, or something! Wonder if Mike Sinclair ever learned to drive 5 minutes without derailing or crashing into something? Anyway, I'll keep it in mind next time I stumble over that SFNRS bug, reduce the AI trains from 9 cars to 8. Maybe that's why the 1950s pack didn't get as many problems as the regular activities for PO&N 6, with Alco RS-2s and 0-8-0 steamers pulling AI trains, they were a lot shorter even with cabooses (cabeese?). I'm still curious, was it 2 engines and 10 oil cars for your train, or did you have more cars on your train? How long was it?

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-12-04 AT 11:48 PM (EST)

Hmm...I'm not trying to be a "troublemaker" here.It was 12 cars (10 chemical cars and 2 engines). I'm learning how to limit myself to 9 cars like I said and that seems to making things smooth and haven't seen that SFNRS bug so far.The only bug that's been happening in random places is a "Failed to create SMS object". But it usually only happens if I forget to reboot before playing it.-BeaverMon, AKA Ben-

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Hey, I'm kidding, you're not a troublemaker. Having someone actually report problems rather than just politely ignoring them is a breath of fresh air to me. Too many sensitive artistes around here can't take a hint of criticism, I ain't one'a doze, but I usually have to beg for feedback since people are so reluctant."Failed to create SMS object" is one of them limit bugs, either too many .wag files loaded into RAM at once, or too many .wag files loaded and not unloaded since the activity started. Clicking on options, advanced display and turning the visibility slider down a little will fix it partially, since the program loads every AI engine and car and every loose wagon in the player circle of visibility, the smaller that circle is the less it loads at one time. Also dramatically improves framerates. The second half of the bug is the way trainsim uses memory, it loads up and forgets to unload, then gets a stack overflow. Having lots of RAM does NOT help, since the page file that MSTS uses is limited to about 100 megs regardless of how much system RAM you have. Cure for that is to take a break, after driving half an hour or so save the activity, exit all the way back to desktop to completely unload trainsim, then start it up and load the saved activity. Rebooting isn't really necessary, just exiting trainsim all the way clears the memory.You really should be able to get away with a lot more than 10 cars for the player train, with the original (1 engine plus 9 car) AI trains I typically have from 25 to 40 cars in my train as I pick up and drop off.

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"You really should be able to get away with a lot more than
>10 cars for the player train, with the original (1 engine
>plus 9 car) AI trains I typically have from 25 to 40 cars in
>my train as I pick up and drop off. "
At the risk of being too agreeable, I would say Sniper is totally right here.I have been hacking his activities a long time so as to put in what I like and to get more cars per train I hack out all default and put in 40' boxes, 50 ton coal hoppers, smaller size grain cars, etc. I also usually add fuel points and hack the gravity to 80% +- so that my favorite steamers can pull 30 boxes up most of the hills. I have been even using consists in the AI of 1 PON 080 + 30 emty 50 ton coal cars or two PON 080's with 25 full 50 ton coal cars. I have an AI with 1 PON 080 pulling 30, 40' boxes and also some short passenger trains with 1 PON 080 an 1886 baggage car and 3, 1886 coaches. I run these for several days with no traffic jams.Quite a while ago I did whitness a traffic jam while running I think the original AI on PO&N 6. I had, had several occurances of derailments that I didn't think was me and then one day I was driving along and noticed I was catching up with an AI and slowed down for the expected red signal. At that point I noticed that the AI had stopped on a hill and then started rolling backwards. I stopped and watched as it would roll back till it came apon a hill behind then it would start back up the hill in front but could not get over the crest and would roll back again. Certainly this was the beginning of a tie-up like was discribed earlier.I also have had the missing shape thing but I start and stop play so often that it took me a long time to notice that it was a real problem other than the normal harrasment that computers like to give us. They are controlled by the devil, you know!I used to think that the problems were caused possibly by breaking up the dozens of loose consists in my hacked activities and dispersing cars all over the route. I was thinking along the lines of a max number of consists rather than max wag files. Good thing we have a few guys like Sniper that will not let a stone unturned untill the answers are found.Wild Willy the Wacko

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-13-04 AT 01:16 PM (EST)

I don't know...maybe it's just my computer, or the way I drive, or something.Because it happened again...and I did only have 10. I wanted to turn all the AI trains into "PO&N Tour Trains" for tourists since the AI trains have their own route.I used the CyroTrain from SV4, the Flying Scotsman, and the Orient Express, chopped down to 10 cars each.
The CyroTrain I believe was the issue for a southbound between Newcastle and 77 tie-up.
I was about to head West towards Johnsburgh from Newcastle and saw a CyroTrain blocking the switch infront of me.I believe the fact of the CyroTrain's Speed could of been a factor of that incident.
Now I've tried to make "expermental" tour trains, using 2 GP38's at both ends to make sure all AI trains go the same speed.I haven't tried it yet as I'm trying to figure out how to make "/timeacceleration" work while RailDriver is running.-BeaverMon, AKA Ben-

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"I have been even using consists in the AI of 1 PON 080 + 30 emty 50 ton coal cars or two PON 080's with 25 full 50 ton coal cars. I have an AI with 1 PON 080 pulling 30, 40' boxes and also some short passenger trains with 1 PON 080 an 1886 baggage car and 3, 1886 coaches. I run these for several days with no traffic jams."Lemmee see if I got this straight, you made activities for PO&N 8 using PO&N steam and you haven't uploaded them? Whatch'ya waitin' for? "Quite a while ago I did whitness a traffic jam while running I think the original AI on PO&N 6."Yeah, before the maxvelocity hack all the "expected performance" numbers in the services had to be fiddled with to get traffic running at the samke speed. Maxvelocity isn't the complete cure-all I originally thought it was either, if the horsepower to tonnage ratio is extremely different from one consist to the next they still run at different speeds. I suspect the game somehow adds in the tractive effort and drag numbers from the engines and wagons somehow, but if all the consists are capable of exceeding 25mph and all the maxvelocity numbers are set to 25mph, it usually works pretty well."I had, had several occurances of derailments that I didn't think was me"Don't that bite? Blasted thing says "activity ended because YOUR train derailed", and unless you actually saw the derailment you have no way to know if it was your train or an AI train.
I hadn't seen any consists sliding backwards down any hills, but I was using default physics. Possibly Plainsman's Physics 4.5 and Realmuto's friction calc would affect that, I never tried it. When the first Invisocar activities came out there was an AI train derailing at the east junction east of Hawthorne Melody (I gotta number all these junctions for V9 so we all know what we're talking about!), apparently the radius of the dynamic track there was too tight. Without Invisocar there was no problem, but the combination of the default SD40, US2chemicar, and the rigid coupler of Invisocar dragged it off the tracks at that diverge. There was a patch for that, replaced the US2chemicar with US2freightcar3 (the other tanker), and broadened the radius of that curve. Again, same deal, if you happened to be close to that junction when that AI train hit the curve it would derail, otherwise the same AI train sails right thru. I think there's a default KUJU activity for the NorthEast Corridor like that, you have to put your foot down and pop the clutch when the activity starts to get away from an AI train that runs into a bumper. As long as it's not in your circle of visibility it's like the "tree falls in a forest with no one around to hear" thing, problem being that circle of visibility extends right thru any and all viewblocks, mountains, trees, whatever. If it's in that radius it gets processed even if you can't actually see it, outside the radius it don't really exist.Beavermon, try using Conbuilder on those consists, there's a new utility in the latest Conbuilder that sets maxvelocity for AI trains, to get them running at the same speed.

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"Lemmee see if I got this straight, you made activities for
>PO&N 8 using PO&N steam and you haven't uploaded them?
>Whatch'ya waitin' for?"
You made the activities. All I did was hack them.I have a small problem with people who have a lot of non-default equipment in their activities. If I knew how to package and upload then I would be an extreme example of the people I have a problem with. I started long ago checking the library each week and I mostly only download 40' boxes and other such old/small/light rolling stock to be used with steam. I've got maybe 45, 40' boxes and when I make a consist I go through my list of cars and put in what ever I like the looks of at the time and not necessarily in order of appearance. No one would down load an activity with a list of 60 special cars to try and round up, at least I know I wouldn't! "Yeah, before the maxvelocity hack all the "expected
>performance" numbers in the services had to be fiddled with
>to get traffic running at the samke speed. Maxvelocity isn't
>the complete cure-all I originally thought it was either, if
>the horsepower to tonnage ratio is extremely different from
>one consist to the next they still run at different speeds.
>I suspect the game somehow adds in the tractive effort and
>drag numbers from the engines and wagons somehow, but if all
>the consists are capable of exceeding 25mph and all the
>maxvelocity numbers are set to 25mph, it usually works
>pretty well."
>
I'm not familiar with the "maxvelosity hack". I used to wonder why you worked so hard at getting seamingly max sized consists all running at the same speed. I don't try to max out the size, if the consist looks good to me and I think it will make it up the hills I plug it in and set it at 99 "expected performance" and put it in and take it out at 25 or 30 mph. One time I put a maintainance train in with a rail grinder, mow bus, a couple speedsters a short consist of flats with rail and ties, a crain along with one of those 1886 PO&N baggage cars and an old caboose (or cabeese). Even though I usually space out other trains on half hour intervales, I tried to spit the maintainance crew out one after another and I lowered the speed but not the "expected performance" ( one of the official documents described this as something like not making mistakes??). After running this a little, I put some extra time between the next regular train and the one following that. Previous to the entrance of the maintainance crew, I let the route clear out of regular traffic a bit cause I think that is what a railroad would do and not knowing, I assumed there could be a problem with TOO many AIs out there at the same time. I think it is kind of kool that occasionally one has to wait for more than one AI at a meet and since I don't know what I'm doing, it happens that way for me some times."Beavermon, try using Conbuilder on those consists, there's a
>new utility in the latest Conbuilder that sets maxvelocity
>for AI trains, to get them running at the same speed. "I've always been shy about using these various hi-tech add ons. At first it was " Hey, I think I'll wait and see if anyone has problems like, "I used that new program and I lost everything and will never get it back."". Since I have been getting along with out them I still don't have them. But, with TMTS on the way we won't need that stuff any more , Right?
Wild Willy the WackoP.S. To answer the first question, we're all waiting for PO&N 9!

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-14-04 AT 12:15 PM (EST)

>P.S. To answer the first question, we're all waiting for PO&N 9!PO&N9 BETA is looking great so far! You're going to the finished version!
It's going to be New and Improved! All I can say.-BeaverMon, AKA Ben-

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-13-04 AT 05:30 PM (EST)

Now sniper I know you probally can't really do anything about this since this is probley not happening to you, but here's some proof of stopped AI trains.http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID15/3992.htmlScreens I took (started a topic about this in the Screen Shot Forum), show where their getting stuck, and possiably WHY their getting stuck.
It is showing that consist length doesn't seem to affect it.-BeaverMon, AKA Ben-

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Right wing vs. left wing? Anybody hunting thru threads in the future who also goes right when everyone else goes left:http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/User_files/411d66cc45f7ab14.zipUnzip that and copy it to the \Train Simulator\Routes\Portogden8\PATHS folder, yes to overwrites.That's what comes from not testing thoroughly, apparently I never went to the right starting from Anderson, and neither did any of the beta testers. That zip above fixes the Anderson path so it don't cross the first junction, how in the #*&%$#! that m!$t@kE got by I have no idea. I'm gonna check and fix all the PO&N 8 paths tonight, I'll get another activity pack upload by tomorrow.

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> Heah. -BeaverMon, AKA Ben-

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