Video card upgrade on old machine

I can't upgrade the computer very far at this time! I would like to bring the video card up to something reasonable, given the computing power I have.HP Pavillion 8776C
Athlon 1 Gig processor
512 Mb RAM 133Mz
60 Gig 5200 RPM HD
nVidia TNT32 pro graphics cardI realize I'm not going to see miracles, and have $50-100 to spend. I suspect I can get quite an upgrade for this price, considering the card I'm starting from.I can get a GeForce2 MX-400 64Mb locally for $45, or a FX5200 for around $80. Any other suggestions, that won't be overkill on my system and within my budget?

Steve T.

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RE: Video card upgrade on old machine, sniper297, Aug-10-04, 09:26 PM, (1) RE: Video card upgrade on old machine, timken, Aug-10-04, 09:51 PM, (2) RE: Video card upgrade on old machine, CMO, Aug-10-04, 11:01 PM, (3) RE: Video card upgrade on old machine, Doxt5, Aug-10-04, 11:11 PM, (4) RE: Video card upgrade on old machine, zhivago47, Aug-11-04, 01:38 AM, (5) RE: Video card upgrade on old machine, sniper297, Aug-11-04, 11:29 AM, (6) RE: Video card upgrade on old machine, djt, Aug-13-04, 06:46 PM, (11) RE: Video card upgrade on old machine, BeaverMon, Aug-11-04, 12:00 PM, (7) RE: Video card upgrade on old machine, OTTODAD, Aug-11-04, 03:02 PM, (8) Video card woes, HELP!, timken, Aug-13-04, 04:39 PM, (9) RE: Video card woes, HELP!, sniper297, Aug-13-04, 04:58 PM, (10) RE: Video card woes, HELP!, timken, Aug-13-04, 09:02 PM, (12) RE: Video card woes, HELP!, sniper297, Aug-13-04, 11:05 PM, (13) RE: Video card woes, HELP!, timken, Aug-14-04, 08:18 AM, (14) RE: Video card woes, HELP!, sniper297, Aug-14-04, 10:34 AM, (15) RE: Video card woes, HELP!, timken, Aug-14-04, 01:38 PM, (16) Hewlett-Packard??!!!, sniper297, Aug-14-04, 03:25 PM, (17) RE: Hewlett-Packard??!!!, timken, Aug-14-04, 03:41 PM, (18) RE: Hewlett-Packard??!!!, Doxt5, Aug-14-04, 06:46 PM, (19) RE: Hewlett-Packard??!!!, djt, Aug-15-04, 00:40 AM, (20) RE: Hewlett-Packard??!!!, Doxt5, Aug-15-04, 01:23 AM, (21) RE: Hewlett-Packard??!!!, djt, Aug-15-04, 10:30 AM, (22) RE: Hewlett-Packard??!!!, Doxt5, Aug-15-04, 12:25 PM, (23) RE: Hewlett-Packard??!!!, djt, Aug-15-04, 11:54 PM, (24) RE: Hewlett-Packard??!!!, CPR_Malice_96th, Aug-16-04, 09:06 AM, (25) RE: Hewlett-Packard??!!!, djt, Aug-16-04, 10:25 AM, (26) RE: Hewlett-Packard??!!!, CPR_Malice_96th, Aug-16-04, 10:52 AM, (27) RE: Hewlett-Packard??!!!, niknak, Aug-16-04, 11:12 AM, (28) Indy 500 lawnmowers??, sniper297, Aug-16-04, 11:20 AM, (29) RE: Indy 500 lawnmowers??, niknak, Aug-16-04, 11:47 AM, (30) RE: Indy 500 lawnmowers??, Doxt5, Aug-17-04, 10:00 PM, (31)

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You can do a lot better than that if you forget the "locally", try www.pricewatch.com for assorted GEFORCE 4 models for 50 bucks. In fact there's an FX5200 128mb listed for 50 bucks on one page, you can search by brands or price range. I don't recall if the FX 5200 had problems or not, but you can research video cards here;http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20031229/index.htmlThat one is a comparison of assorted video card, click on the "next" link at the bottom to see benchmark comparisons.The other suggestion, dump that 5400rpm hard disk, get one of the Western Digital 7200rpm ATA-133 JB models (the "BB" is a standard 2mb hardware cache, the "JB" has an 8mb cache and loads trainsim objects with a lot less "stuttering"), WD800JB (80 gigabyte) for $55 buckazoids on pricewatch.

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Thanks Jim,My old card won't display the microtex texture, so grass, etc. looks different on my machine. Also, in working on Sumpter, I had a corrupted microtex ace and it looked terrible on other machines, kinda a checkerboard pattern on everything. It looked fine on my machine though. Running at 1024 X 768, most things maxed, no shadows, and a short train with one of Jon Davis' mallets, I get 12-15 fps on the scenic intense areas of Sumpter, not horrible, and I can live with the stuttering, not too bad on this machine.Just gotta figure out what to get in my price range that will be low hassle to install and use.

Steve T.

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I went from a TNT to a FX 5200 about 4 Months ago. At first, I could not see any improvement, but then I followed the instructions on nVidia's site, and removed all the old drivers, went to generic VGA or what ever from XP, and then installed the latest "certified" nVidia drivers - what a difference in detail. My computer is a 3 1/2 year old 700Mh machine, so your speed should really make a difference.Takes about 15 minutes to replace the card, and another 20 min to delete and reinstall the software.

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-10-04 AT 11:14 PM (EST)

I been running the 5200 series for some time now. I had one on a Compaq 1 GHZ, PCI version and now on my newer comp P4 2.4 HT with 1 GB dual channel memory, custom cooling. And with a XFX AGP FX5200 plus twin hardirves 80 & 60 GB, learned from leasons in the past! 2 is the way to go also a 380 powersuply. The FX 5200 is about the best bang for the buck. it can come in the PCI and AGP version. And also comes in 128 or 256 MB DDR which does not matter since memory is self contained. You can go on http://www.tigerdirect.com/ or any Circuit city and Best Buys. I was going to upgrade to a Raideon 9800 Pro and saw no noticable defrence. The Nivida software can be tweaked and also is Direct X 9 coampble. But thats my advice! Plus it will interface with 250W powersystems

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-11-04 AT 01:38 AM (EST)

I will have to agree here. I have an AGP FX5200 with 256 MB DDR and it does an excellent job, despite the rumors to the contrary. I also did the same thing and got rid of the old drivers and got the newest ones from NVidea. I have a much faster and larger machine than you but I think if you get an FX5200 it will work in your machine. Just make sure you do as stated above and get the newest drivers for it but get rid of the old ones first. I have a 400 watt power supply but that is because I am running two very large harddrives and two CDR's plus one has DVD on it plus I am running two input fans and four output fans which doesn't count the fan on the power supply the one on the processor (An AMD 2700) plus the one on the video card. So it stays nice and cool. And I like that.
Get the 5200. You can get it cheap online. Good luck! Tim"May the great BNSF 38 pumpkin carry you to your new home, Cyndi and may you engineer her for an eternity"

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Yeah, I suspect the 5200 is fine. My memory ain't what it used to be (or was it ever any good? I can't remember!), so I don't remember what I read or where half the time. If you look at the tomshardware list in that link above tho, the complaints of the reviewers become more obvious - the basic FX5200 adds the DX 9 features which the Titanium series didn't have, but it's actually slower than the Ti-4200. The 5200 has the same chipclock speed as the Ti-4200, but the memory clock is 400mhz compared to the 4200's 514mhz, and both have 4 pixel pipes but the 4200 processes 2 texels per clock cycle. That's probably a DX 9 thing, looking further up the list the double stroke on the pipes isn't used on any of the DX 9 cards. Even the 5200 Ultra don't compare favorably to the GEFORCE 4 Ti-4600, the memory clock is the same, the chipclock is only 25mhz faster, and with the 4x2 pipe the Ti-4600 is gonna negate the 25mhz advantage the 5200 Ultra has on most 3D games. Again that's a "bang for your buck" thing tho, the Ti-4600 is still more expensive, and in the long run will become obsolete before the FX5200 since it don't have the DX 9 additional features. At the moment that's not really important, but as more games start using DX 9 in the future, the 5200 will still be okay, cards that don't have the additional DX 9 features will start to look kinda blah.

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Doxt5,“I was going to upgrade to a Raideon 9800 Pro and saw no noticable defrence.”
Turn up the AA, AF and the resolution and see how the ATI 9800 Pro does next to the FX 5200. I bought a 5900 Ultra last summer that could not keep up with the 9800 Pro, I can’t even imagine what dismal performance you would see from a FX 5200.
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>Athlon 1 Gig processorHey, don't worry. I have a 1.6GB so I'm not too far away from you. And did I mention I also have an HP?It's an HP Pavilion 540n
1.6GB P4 CPU
512MB of RAM
nVidia GeForce FX 5200
Windows XP Home
40GB Hard Drive(C)
20GB Hard Drive(F)
DVD-ROM
HP CD-Writer PlusOur computers are almost the same.-BeaverMon, AKA Ben-

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Reviews from many sources are not really relevant for cards being used for old-timer MSTS, which was designed for DirectX-7 ! They are usually bench-tested with top ranking 3-D games under DirectX-9 and AGP 8x.I have a nVIDIA TI-4600 with the 30.82 driver and would not change it for anything else to run on my WIN-XP for some time to come until we get a TRAIN SIM designed for DirectX-9+ !O t t o

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I went ahead and bought a GeForce FX5200 AGP card w/128Mb DDR. Seemed to work ok on old drivers, ran the sim same as old card. Went to basic driver, uninstalled nVidia drivers, then installed 61.76 from their download page.Computer crashed to black on opening several times, even in safe mode. I finally got it to boot all the way, after nearly loading everything several times. Switched to 44.03, which I had dl'd a few months ago, and it quit crashing, for the most part. Ran mprofile. exe, TS would load, and when I went to drive a train, it would load the route 99%, then lock up. Hit any key and instant black screen.Also tried 4.14.10.5216 with the same result. Everything else seems to be working ok, but the sim won't load and neither with the editor, just a black screen lockup.

Steve T.

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That sucks. I haven't played with Nvidia in a while, but it used to be that just uninstalling didn't work, you had to run a utility called "detonator destroyer" in safe mode to get rid of all the driver files. Also check your BIOS setup screen, might need to fiddle with the AGP aperture. Which DX version do you have?

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-13-04 AT 09:58 PM (EST)

DX version, 9.0b, windows ME. Finally figured this out as the heop screen didn't lock up this time. I've been fiddling with this thing most the afternoon, with multiple lock ups, not just with the sim. I uninstalled the drivers, as the nvidia web page describes and re loaded them again, still no go. I haven't had computer problems since last year when my HD died, forgot how much fun it is.After running enditall, I managed to open a test route, track, no scenery, and run for almost 3 minutes before it locked up. Cnt Alt Dlt brought up the black screen and I had to shut it off to restart.

Steve T.

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-13-04 AT 11:25 PM (EST)

"heop screen"? Don't know that one.Well, I dunno, like I said I had problems in the past updating Nvidia drivers since loose threads get left behind:http://downloads.guru3d.com/download.php?det=202Try downloading detonator destroyer and running that. Look around that website too, maybe there's a driver that addresses Win ME problems.Edit:http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;Q281967(copy and paste all that in the address bar, this forum treats the semicolon as a line break)Another possibility.

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This morning, it would only boot as far as improper shutdown, run scandisk, then the black screen. I removed it and replaced my old TNT32 and all's well. I'll have to think on this one before I try again. At least I did end up getting it at the local store for $69, so I can probably return it.

Steve T.

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Yeah, they are defective occasionally. One other possibility, your power supply got enough zzzap for the card? I made a pentium 200 once with parts salvaged from 286 and 386 junk, and the 150 watt power supply worked fine until I stuck a 3Dfx voodoo 3 in it, then it wouldn't boot. Newer video cards need even more amps.

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-14-04 AT 01:39 PM (EST)

I expect that HP used the smallest supply that would barely run the thing, so that's exactly what I've been thinking. I'll talk to the shop, and maybe we can do some experimenting.

Steve T.

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Ugh. Well, they're not as bad as emachines stuff, but "upgradeable" is a slippery concept. I once had a Super Socket 7 mobo with an AMD K6-2 450mhz on it, mini tower case with a 300 watt power supply. Plenty of juice for upgrading, but I found that sticking a GEFORCE 2 GTS/PRO in there didn't give me any performance increase, since the Voodoo 3-2000 that was in there already was the max that the CPU could work with. I learned from that about bottlenecks, putting a 4 barrel carb and turbosupercharger on a lawnmower ain't gonna make it a racecar. One of my daughters has a Dell P2 400mhz, and the ancient ATI card in that wasn't really enough for the CPU, so I stuck the GEFORCE 2 in that. Really too much card for the CPU, but since the power supply is adequate it works much better than the old card.Anyway, couple articles I found;http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_20011119_6325.htmlhttp://www.tomshardware.com/howto/20040122/index.htmlWhere you hunt for info as to what each component requires so you can calculate how much zap you need I have no idea, so I always go with overkill. I think it needs about 250 watts, I get a 450 watt power supply!

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I took it back, and will live with my present card for a few more months. I'll probably upgrade to a new computer early next year. This just got too complicated for the time I have to spend fiddling with it!Thanks all for your suggestions and help.

Steve T.

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-14-04 AT 07:00 PM (EST)

“I was going to upgrade to a Raideon 9800 Pro and saw no noticable defrence.” ((Sorry getting back late))I did and for $240 vs $60 for a very small if no defrence it was not worth it and the 9800 Pro even laged under the high texture rate. I personally am looking foward to the 6800 series once I see one in stock. But as for the 5200 series, All you need is the companies or manifactures current drivers and bam. Not saying the 9800 Pro is a bad card but when it comes for bang for the buck! I will stay with the 5200 workhorse! And I also re did everything silver compound cooling grease. Plus did the custom work on my board with heatsinks on all memory modules. Included Graphics card and Memory bus bridges. The Antec Sonata Case which has a 120mm Fan. That baby stays cold. More or less the whole system meshed together very nicely. I built it on paper and then builty the real thing. I guess backwards planing really does work! LOL

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Doxt5,I think you better do a little research before you recommend a FX5200 over a 9800 Pro. They are not even in the same league. A Radeon 9700 Pro will even do better than a FX5200. As far as Nvidia is concerned unless you are talking about a 6800GT or a 6800 Ultra you are not going to come close to the performance of the higher end ATI cards.
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LAST EDITED ON Aug-15-04 AT 01:52 AM (EST)

Dude the whole thing elvoled from a decent priced card! Now $240 vs $60. I can tell from your specs and statments that your a ATI fan and on the flip side I am a Nvidia fan. But I did try the 9800 pro and I was not happy with it. Reason being it still laged on high detail. So for 240 bucks of no improvment or a fix it was a waste. and took the thing back! But I did fix the problem by redoing the Nvidia desk manager settings to top performance. Now on other games it may be a defrent story. As for the 6800 series which has ATI Shaking in the pants. Reason why they released some new stuff of there own. X800 Pro and XT. Which I have not personally sat them side by side. But did read the reviews on bench testing and the 6800GT was killing the X800. But I am not going to kid you it is hard for me to justify to spend almost $500 on somthing that I do not need right now. But this is good that people like us have or opions! It keeps the industry on there toes and trying to out do eachother. Plus man you got to remember no everyone had got a monster PC like yours. Going for bang for the buck! Like my system!Pentium4/2.4GHz HT
DFI PS83BL Rev 2
Ultra 1024 Mb Dual Channel w Cooling Heatsinks
Nvidia FX5200
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I am not a fan of ATI only. Actually I am planning on building another machine latter this year that will probably have a Nvidia 6800 Ultra in it. The point I’m trying to get across is that comparing an ATI 9800 Pro to a Nvidia FX5200 is like comparing a Intel Celeron to an AMD FX CPU. ATI has had better image quality since the 9700 Pro came out in 2002. I will agree that Nvidia’s 6800 series cards are changing this. The only thing that bothers me is fact that some of the tests I’ve seen with the new Nvidia 6800 cards have shown performance dropping off again when high levels of AA and AF are turned on. This will probably change with new drivers.Like I said earlier, I have a Nvidia 5900 Ultra sitting in a box that could not keep up with the 9800Pro even when it was overclocked to 5950 levels. The Nvidia’s 4 x AA looked like the ATI cards 2 x AA, so image quality was not there either. I currently run MSTS at 1600x1200/32 bit (22” monitor) with 4 x AA and 8 x AF enabled on the card, these settings brought the 5900Ultra down on its knees. When I replaced the card last fall with an ATI 9800XT the difference was like night and day. The X800XT Platinum I have now shows in some applications double the performance I had with the 9800XT.Obviously not every one has $500.00 dollars for a high end video card. I just would not recommend the FX5200. MSTS looks the best when a least 4 x AA and 8 x AF is enabled and the Nvidia FX cards show a significant performance hit at these settings.
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I can not agree with you more. I am not saying the FX5200 is the best by no means, but is a decent replacment for a older card. But like you was saying it deopends on what dispaly settings you are using. ATI vs Nvidia, I guess its like GE vs EMD. I have my card maxed and I like playing in high detail. And lucky for me my card keeps up pace. But as you said, I am also looking forward to the 6800 series but I think I am going to go with the 6800GT OC version. Since its already over clocked and there is no need to fine tweak it. Plus I like the top cooling fan 2 port desiegn. But let me know when you build that new beast and how that 6800 Ultra performs. I may just go head and get one!

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Doxt5,“But let me know when you build that new beast”The “beast” I am planning to build is going to have an AMD Athlon64 FX-55 CPU when they are released. If I knew I could get away with it, with out my girl friend killing me first, I would try and come up with the money for one of the new dual video card systems that Alienware is supposed to come out with later this year. I usually stay away from pre-built machines but they are not going to sell the dual video card motherboards separately. Actually Alienware builds pretty good machines, I’m just not fond of those goofy cases that they use.
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>Doxt5,
>
>I think you better do a little research before you recommend
>a FX5200 over a 9800 Pro. They are not even in the same
>league.Yo !!They aren't in the same price leauge either !!THAT'S PROBABLY WHY HE'S RECOMMENDIG IT !!Not everybody here can afford the 3.4 gig processors like yourself !
For the record ... compared to what he presently has ..... the FX5200 will be a HUGE difference for him !Later

Tim Kent – 96th_Malice - Winnipeg Canada

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CPR_Malice_96th,I never said that these two cards where in the same price range. My response was to Doxt5’s comment that he did not see a difference between the 9800 Pro and the FX5200. The point I’m making is that if you don’t see a significant difference between an ATI 9800 Pro and a FX5200 something is seriously wrong.The FX5200 can be had for a little as $50.00 - $60.00. The ATI 9600SE, Nvidia FX5700 and FX5600T can be had for $65.00 - $85.00. For just $10.00 - $15.00 more I would recommend one of these cards over the FX5200.
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>I’m making is that if you don’t see a significant
>difference between an ATI 9800 Pro and a FX5200 something is
>seriously wrong. And in that point I can't agree with you more.Your prices for the 5600 / 5700 seem much closer to the price of the 5200 than they are up here in Canada.5200 you can get for around $99 CDN and the the 5600 I think I have seen for as cheap as $195.Later

Tim Kent – 96th_Malice - Winnipeg Canada

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If my experience helps at all.....Same goes for a straight (non-pro) 9800 v FX5200. My new pc came with a FX5200. When I swopped it out for the 2 year old 9800 in my old machine my fps more than doubled. Nearly all new pcs over here seem to ship with FX5200s installed at the moment unless you specify a more powerful alternative.Regards, Nick (UK)Specs:
Dell P4 3.0 ghz
768 ram
7200rpm 120gb hd
ATI 9800 128mb graphics
XP Home

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Like I said in the previous, gotta match CPU and GPU anyway, no point putting a 6800 ultra in a Celery 400.http://www.guru3d.com/article/article/136/1/

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I guess it's crunch time eh Jim? (Celery - Crunch....geddit??)
Sorry, slow day over here!regards, Nick (UK)

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Got that 6800GT and that baby does move. MSTS no prob, Doom3 no prob. I am very happy with the results!

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