PO&N route. 2 Problems and a Question

LAST EDITED ON Aug-09-04 AT 05:18 PM (EST)

I've downloaded the PO&N route I've heard alot about and it's nice (expasually the "FREESTYLE" activities).
But I do have some issues with it.Problem 1, Anderson Yard of the "Anderson" activity: I saw 2 cuts of long rolling stock on this 1 track and wanted to couple to it. Unfortunally there is no switch here so I can't switch the track (I do like the AI train that pulled into the yard).Problem 2, dead end outside of Timbers Point, "Anderson" activity: I was going down this single line, noticing lots of non-working signals but according to the Track Monitor they where Red signals and I got permission to pass.
As I left the; I call it "thick canyon pass" area (where your train is actually going THROUGH the canyon walls if they cross the track), I noticed the red lights where gone and I had a yellow signal...little do I know I was heading STRAIGHT for a dead-end.Question 1: What in the File Library do I look for to get those PO&N rolling stock with that Catdog logo on it? "PO&N"?All help is appreachiated.-BeaverMon, AKA Ben-

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RE: PO&N route. 2 Problems and a Question, sniper297, Aug-09-04, 06:15 PM, (1) RE: PO&N route. 2 Problems and a Question, BeaverMon, Aug-09-04, 06:27 PM, (2) RE: PO&N route. 2 Problems and a Question, OTTODAD, Aug-09-04, 06:56 PM, (3) RE: PO&N route. 2 Problems and a Question, BeaverMon, Aug-09-04, 07:05 PM, (4) Map, dti407, Aug-09-04, 07:46 PM, (5) RE: Map, BeaverMon, Aug-09-04, 07:51 PM, (6) RE: Map, sniper297, Aug-09-04, 08:19 PM, (7) RE: Map, BeaverMon, Aug-09-04, 08:23 PM, (8) Ohh MAN!!! Game crashed in this route!, BeaverMon, Aug-09-04, 11:18 PM, (9) RE: Ohh MAN!!! Game crashed in this route!, asmith46, Aug-10-04, 01:30 AM, (10) RE: Ohh MAN!!! Game crashed in this route!, sniper297, Aug-10-04, 01:26 PM, (11) RE: Ohh MAN!!! Game crashed in this route!, BeaverMon, Aug-10-04, 06:01 PM, (12) RE: Ohh MAN!!! Game crashed in this route!, sniper297, Aug-10-04, 07:21 PM, (13) RE: Ohh MAN!!! Game crashed in this route!, BeaverMon, Aug-10-04, 07:38 PM, (14)

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Problem 1, you can't switch those since they're not real cars, and they're not on real tracks.http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID3/24263.htmlSee number 3 in that post for pics of the new Anderson yard on the working copy of PO&N 9, showing the difference between real tracks and fake tracks. This was done to preserve framerates, "static trains" (fake cars) don't have to load .wag or .sms files, so I can create the illusion of a big yard with just a few loose consists.Problem 2, not sure the area you're talking about. The dark signals were an experiment, and since the dark signals are only on the AI traffic route it sounds like you went thru a red signal somewhere and accidently ended up on one of the AI traffic bypass routes. "going thru canyon walls" to a dead end, sounds like the SE spawn point for the AI traffic trains. Areas like that aren't scenicked, since the player isn't supposed to be there, I spend all my time scenicking the actual PO&N route, which is technically not part of the AI traffic route. Getting player interaction with AI traffic combined with player freedom to do whatever he wants was tricky, basically I kludged around the problem by creating two routes on the same tiles, so the AI trains follow a path around their route while the player is actually all alone on the PO&N. The 40 some-odd junctions where the AI trains share single track sections with the player are isolated from the manual switches by automatic switches, and because these are dispatcher controlled the player has to pay attention to the interlocking and flashing red distant switch indicators, since the AI trains have priority at all meets. Just because you CAN go thru a red signal don't mean it's a good idea! As for the question, same as anything else, if I'm looking for Chicago and NorthWestern equipment I use several searches to make sure I get them all, depending on what the creator put in the description text I might get hits on "C&NW" or "CNW", possibly "NorthWestern" will get some, but miss one or two because the guy used "North Western" instead. PO&N is the same way, "PO&N", "Port Ogden", "PON" should get everything available.

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-09-04 AT 06:41 PM (EST)

Responces of answers;
Answer 1 & 2 Response: Ahh!! I get it now! It looks really realistic (not to mention irritating as I was trying for 5 minutes to get to those "fake" consists. I bet the guy in that AI train that went by was probley laughing his arse off at me. I basically just gave up).Problem 2 Response: Well...I guess I did go the wrong way, and AE proved it...I was supposed to go LEFT at Anderson, not right.
It does show the track ends at that spot. I should of known something wasn't right when I saw I couldn't switch the track infront of me (I'm surprised I didn't see a freakin AI train spawn right infront of me and start moving! ).
I will pay more attention to those flashing red signals. I understand completly now. You did a fantastic job! 1 more question though. Where could I find skimatics of this route so I know where to go next? No offense, but I won't really know where to go with the route provided.
Or is it the same as "Austral Bay"?I will look for the things you suggested. Thanks much.-BeaverMon, AKA Ben-

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There should be a 1Maps&Docs&Hacks folder on top of the PON-8 Route Folders list.O t t o

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-09-04 AT 07:45 PM (EST)

There is, but...it isn't actually what I need. I'll check on the File Library, but I doubt if I find it there.I checked the file library. The latest one there is for version 5 but it doesn't cover all of the route (including Anderson).-BeaverMon, AKA Ben-

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I plan on making a V8 map, if that's what you want.

Greg Zoll

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I could use that! Please let me know when you complete it.-BeaverMon, AKA Ben-

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"I was supposed to go LEFT at Anderson, not right." Wasn't there you screwed up, you can go either way from Anderson, the problem is you went left just before the bridge to Paludan instead of across the bridge into Paludan. Paludan also dead ends in the quarry, unless you throw the first manual switch (with the big signal lantern) to the right to continue on to Spittler. Mapping the PO&N is a tough job since it goes all directions at once (now you know why "CatDog" for the logo is perfect), but here's a better map of V8:

Attachments

http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/User_files/40c665993af17ada.jpg

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Lol, now I understand. Thanks alot for the map, this'll be very helpful.-BeaverMon, AKA Ben-

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-10-04 AT 00:11 AM (EST)

NOOOOOOOO!!!! Dangit. Why does my computer have to show how OLD it is?! Dang thing crashed in Port Ogden. I had a medium-sized consist behind me that I picked up in Tinkers Dam. I didn't know how to drop it off here. So I thought about backing up and placing the consist there in that big yard. Flipped the switch, went back...and the GAME went.It hasen't crashed anywhere else. It was probley just a small flaw in the route or the activity that made the sim think it had an issue and crash on me.
I'm hoping it's not no repeating crash.If it crashes again I'm going to give IT an "issue"!The funny thing is...I was able to keep playing because the crash window was in the background. But what's the point, because I couldn't pause/save or end the activity.Other then that...I LOVE the interaction with the AI trains(it was like playing in Trainz)! Though it can get rather scary(like that time I was FINALLY about to go the right way out of Anderson when I saw I was heading right INTO a parked AI train, because I couldn't change the switch.
Little did I know it was waiting for me to clear the tracks by backing up alittle bit. It went by and the switch changed automatically and I was allowed access.My guess is, the maker(s) of the route wanted to make sure the player wasn't going to run into an AI train, and an AI train stays on it's own track.
Anyway. I liked it very much. It's the highest praise I can give for a route; 4 thumbs up (hand and toe thumbs)!
Seeing sidings called "Wonka's Candy(or something)", "Harley Davidson", and others just adds to the fun on this route. I do have a question. What are all of the arrow signs for (I've seen yellow and green arrow signs pointing down or up. Is it some kind of "elevation warning, slow down" thing)?-BeaverMon, AKA Ben-

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-10-04 AT 01:56 AM (EST)

>What are all of the arrow signs for (I've seen yellow and green arrow signs pointing down or up. Is it some kind of "elevation warning, slow down" thing)?<Sniper's just a nut. A coconut. He put them there just to make us as crazy as he is. No, seriously, if you look at them closely, well, I don't know either. Maybe he will tell us.-Al

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Like Larry says, I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it. Signs are half finished intentions, this being a freeware route it has assorted loose ends. If I tried to make everything perfect before uploading I would be like a lot of other route developers, working on perfection for 3 years and nobody ever sees the results. You want to see what PO&N version 1 looked like three years ago, try this;http://www.train-sim.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=3850&forum=DCForumID6Anyway, you guessed it, they originally were "go thisaway or thataway" signs at junctions to keep newless cluebies from going off onto the AI tracks, but with the new Hank Sundermeyer signals I figured I didn't need them anymore. So I converted them to "downgrade ahead" and "upgrade ahead" signs, yellow down chevron means get on the dynamic brakes, green up chevron means notch it up to the redline and hit the sanders. Reason that's undocumented is because it's not done yet, hopefully some day I'll get all of these little enhancements finished.As for the crash, first thing is to optimize MSTS by clicking on options, advanced display, disable all shadows (the shadows in MSTS suck, don't really enhance anything and eat framerates like candy) and turn the visibility slider down.http://www.train-sim.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=11645&forum=DCForumID3That "Overall Display Quality" slider is some programmer geek's idea of what gives the best framerates-to-quality compromise, and since programmer geeks don't actually play games they really don't have a clue. Use the Advanced Display and adjust it yourself according to your own tastes.Second thing;http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID3/23982.htmlSome addon activities that reduce the total number of loose consists slightly. You can still get crashes after driving for X number of hours (like most MSTS bugs, the "too many wag files" limit is a slippery one, seems to vary with the phase of the moon), so it's best to save the game every 30 minutes or so just in case.On to other stuff, signals are rather difficult to understand sometimes, the normal way signals are set up is if the player blows thru a red the activity ends. That always seemed really stupid to me, and of course the anticipated setup is the player will rigidly follow the paint-by-numbers path from start to finish, so predicting what train is gonna be where and when will be no problem for HAL9000 (the AI dispatcher). Like I said, combining player freedom with AI traffic that actually interacts with the player rather than just passing by on parallel tracks is tricky, so the burden is on the player to watch the signals and be prepared to stop. This will help;http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/User_files/4119056f39a1e792.zipDownload and unzip that, copy or move the \Cabview folder to your \Train Simulator\Trains\Trainset\GP38\ folder, yes to overwrites. That gives you a signal aspect repeater in the cab that will tell you what the signal ahead is displaying. (There's also an "ASPECT.TXT" file in there, I've had some success adding the signal aspect repeater to other cabviews by copying that text and pasting under the last datablock in other CVF files, then incrementing the control displays number up by 4. Don't work for the Dash 9 for some reason.)Speed limits on the PO&N are artificially high, due to the fact that KUJU apparently didn't have a single person on the team that knew anything about trains. If you have derailments turned on, and you blow thru a reduced speed 40mph at 40.1mph, you'll derail on a 2000 meter radius curve. Going thru a series of 180 meter radius S-curves and switches at 69.5mph is no problem provided the speed limit is 70mph or better. Yet another example of stupid programming, derailments are keyed to the speed limit, ignoring actual physics.Consequently that's another thing the player needs to self-regulate, the actual speed limit should be 40mph, slowing to 30mph approaching a junction, with 60 and 70 reserved for approaching steep upgrades to build momentum, or long stretches of doubletrack. This is where "know your route" comes in handy, a little practice and you'll know where to speed up or slow down.Anderson and Sundermeyer are even more tricky due to the nature of the AI traffic crossovers, you gotta go thru those dead slow and watch the distant signals.Overhead view of Anderson yard, the AI traffic runs thru in both directions and has four places where it crosses over the player tracks.Going thru the crossovers watch the distant signal, these will change without warning.Yet another idiotic MSTS limitation, circular paths are not allowed (love to know who thought THAT one up!). To get around that nonsense, the PO&N mainline dead ends in many yards, unless you throw the switch for the curve to continue on the mainline.Going too fast to stop, the signal turns red in my face. No "activity ended" since all the player signals are permissive. I should have slowed to 30mph and been prepared to stop here.After finally waking up and getting on the binders, I look at the switch window (lower right), which shows the switch ahead curved, switch behind straight. Note the absence of a switch lever, that and the fact that there's a double head signal at the base indicates this is an automatic switch, you can't change it. Player route is always straight thru auto switches, AI always takes the curve. This is a relatively short single track section, but if it's not obvious from the AI train in your face the switch window will always tell you whether to back up or pull ahead.HAL9000 will delay the second switch throw until you clear the junction, so back up beyond the signal you originally blew past.Once clear the near switch is set for the AI train, he gets a green and proceeds thru.Once he clears you get a green. All that was a facing meet, if the AI train was overtaking it would be the opposite, the near switch would throw curved first, and since that would prevent you from backing up you need to continue straight ahead at reduced speed. Again, the switch window will tell the story, player always takes the straight track at junctions.I know all this is somewhat complicated, but it's as simple as I can make it so far. I can't count how many posts I've seen for other routes, "I'm waiting at a red signal for 2 hours on the HorseKickingaRatInTheCajonesPass route, does anyone know when this signal is supposed to turn green?!" Standard on the PO&N is three minutes max waiting at a red signal, after all this is a game, not a training device.

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Nice pictures!I've have kinda "mastered" the Anderson Yard area. I know what to look for.
I haven't gone West in Anderson though...(afraid it's going to change to red and an AI train's gonna show up in the tunnel and ram headon into me).The only "issue" I had with an AI train (other then outside of Anderson) was heading out of Wipfel. I'm seeing an AI train coming and my train's consist is blocking his path. So I try to head into this 1 siding, it's too small to get out.
The AI train sees I'm trying desperatly to get out of his way and stops. So I try to backup and see if I can get out of his way.
Fortunally I found a long siding and backed enough in there to let him pass, the light changed to Green, and I was on my way.The 1st encounter, the activity ended because I passed a red signal (yes, it DID end due to ignoring a red signal!).But, can you tell me where you got that cab? I love the signal display on it and I can defentally use that for this route.Tried searching though File Library, no results for that cab.-BeaverMon, AKA Ben-

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"I haven't gone West in Anderson though...(afraid it's going to change to red and an AI train's gonna show up in the tunnel and ram headon into me)."That's the whole point of the distant signal, as long as the interlocking is not red when you pass it and the distant signal is not flashing red when you pass that, it's safe to proceed. HAL9000 will detect the presence of the player train as "in the block" once the back coupler of the lead engine clears the base of the switch, that's why the distant signal is past the base of the switch. The only problem with passing a green distant signal is if you blow past a red or red over yellow interlocking, and the distant signal is green because the oncoming AI train has already cleared the switch at the far end. The distant switch indicator only shows the position of the switch at the far end of the single track section, it does not show block occupancy.http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID3/23641.htmlThe only time it's actually "safe" to go thru a red interlocking and red distant signal is if the AI train is going the same direction, and you want to follow him without waiting for the green. After he passes it's okay to follow him at reduced speed."The only "issue" I had with an AI train (other then outside of Anderson) was heading out of Wipfel. I'm seeing an AI train coming and my train's consist is blocking his path. So I try to head into this 1 siding, it's too small to get out.
The AI train sees I'm trying desperatly to get out of his way and stops. So I try to backup and see if I can get out of his way.
Fortunally I found a long siding and backed enough in there to let him pass, the light changed to Green, and I was on my way."Sounds like "The Gauntlet" in the town of Okrasa Ghia, sidings too short for anything longer than a way freight. Going thru The Gauntlet you do have to slow down and be prepared to stop and back up to whatever previous passing track is long enough for the AI train to get by. That do make switching cars in Okrasa Ghia somewhat difficult, don't it? "The 1st encounter, the activity ended because I passed a red signal (yes, it DID end due to ignoring a red signal!)."Yup, all the signals on the AI route are absolutes, that's necessary because to an AI train "permissive" means boogie on until you crash into something. So if you do get trapped in a single track section with both switches curved (shouldn't happen if you're engineering instead of touristing!), you'll have to "TAB" your way thru all the red absolute signals to the next (or previous, depending which way you're going) single track section."But, can you tell me where you got that cab? I love the signal display on it and I can defentally use that for this route.Tried searching though File Library, no results for that cab."bnsflady.zip is a repaint of the default GP38 with that cabview, I never uploaded the cabview seperately since it's less than 100 kilobytes and I can just post it in a thread, like this;http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/User_files/411961240736e898.zipDownload and unzip that, copy or move the \Cabview folder to your \Train Simulator\Trains\Trainset\ folder, yes to overwrites. That gives you a signal aspect repeater in the default GP38 cab that will tell you what the signal ahead is displaying. (There's also an "ASPECT.TXT" file in there, I've had some success adding the signal aspect repeater to other cabviews by copying that text and pasting under the last datablock in other CVF files, then incrementing the control displays number up by 4. Don't work for the Dash 9 for some reason.) It also has a headout view on the right, up or down arrow to get that, and a second headout that replaces the #5 passenger view on the left, left-right arrow keys to rotate the views.Any of you guys who knew Cyndi and want to change PONplay2.con to BNSF Lady 8703:http://www.railpage.org.au/steam4me/trainsim/tutorials/hack_act.htmBTW, to confuse you even further, that triple track junction east of Anderson where the AI train crosses over the player tracks is also a main divide, the north player track goes to Sundermeyer and the south goes to Fowlis.

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-10-04 AT 07:53 PM (EST)

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>LOL!!! Now if that isn't confusing I don't know what is! I wouldn't know if I was coming or going(expasually the "No Pineapples", the "?". and the "Bewildered" and "Hopeless" signs)!I appreachiate the link and thank you.-BeaverMon, AKA Ben-

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