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I would like to know the history of diesels locomotives

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Member since Apr-7-03 · 81 posts

I would like to know the history of diesels locomotives – image 1

Hello,I possess MSTS and I like very much diesels locomotives.
I would like to know the history of diesels locomotives "General Electic" and "General Motors" .
Anybody could help me to find the history of these fabulous locomotives on Internet ?Thank's in advance for your help.Roderizator.

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RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot, Vince, Aug-09-04, 11:35 AM, (1) RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot, OkrasaGhia, Aug-10-04, 10:52 AM, (2) RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot, roderizator, Aug-10-04, 02:48 PM, (3) RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot, UP Wings, Aug-10-04, 04:26 PM, (4) RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot, plainsman, Aug-10-04, 05:53 PM, (5) RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot, Busdriver, Aug-10-04, 06:57 PM, (6) RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot, NewEnglandRailFan, Aug-10-04, 06:57 PM, (7) RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot, NewEnglandRailFan, Aug-10-04, 11:19 PM, (8) RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot, roderizator, Aug-11-04, 10:08 AM, (9) RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot, plainsman, Aug-11-04, 01:57 PM, (10) RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot, roderizator, Aug-11-04, 05:19 PM, (11) RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot, NewEnglandRailFan, Aug-11-04, 05:19 PM, (12) RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot, roderizator, Aug-12-04, 08:24 AM, (16) RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot, plainsman, Aug-12-04, 11:10 AM, (17) RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot, thenudehamster, Aug-12-04, 07:39 AM, (15) RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot, Stooopid_person, Aug-12-04, 06:30 AM, (13) RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot, thenudehamster, Aug-12-04, 07:37 AM, (14)

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Charter Member · 780 posts

RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot

Sure, you search the internet with a search engine like Google to find what you want.

Regards,
Vince Cockeram
NEC Track Team
Author: NECv4 Route

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Charter Member · 1530 posts

RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot

I would like to know the history of diesels locomotives – image 2

Vinces answer is a little short and doing such a search will give many pages.
The official MSTS page has a short story on EMD (GM) and GE: http://www.microsoft.com/games/trainsimulator/articles_gevsemd.aspBoth companies have sites and it's possible you may fins some history on those:
https://www.getransportation.com/general/locomotives/Locomotives.asp
http://www.gmemd.com/en/home/index.htmAnd then, as Vince says, there is plenty of info on the internet.


//Okrasa
Chief Engineer
okrasa @ xtracks.tk
http://www.geocities.com/okrasaghia
http://www.xtracks.tk

I would like to know the history of diesels locomotives – image 3

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Member since Apr-7-03 · 81 posts

RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot

I would like to know the history of diesels locomotives – image 4

Dear OkrasaGhia,I would like to thank you for your help.
I want to say to you that I live in France and that I do not know people who love the American locomotives.
In my country, the American locomotives do not exist, It's not easy for me to find books and DVD in shops of my cities.
It's for that reason that I asked this question on the forum of train-sim.com.Still thank you to OkrasaGhia for the help and your links.If the other fans of American locomotives can give me addresses internet, that would be cool!There are so locomotives in the USA, that's it is difficult to find the best informations and it is not in my country that I am going to find news on these locomotives.Still thanks for your help.Roderizator.

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Member since Apr-10-03 · 278 posts

RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot

I under stand, Roderizator. I would recomend you ordering a book though off the internet called, "Modern Diesel Locomotives" by Hans Halberstadt. It is published by MBI Publishing Company and it's ISBN # is 0-7603-0199-9. Just search Amazon.com for the ISBN number and you should find it. It is not the most detailed book but it covers everything from the beginning to the present day stuff. It includes views from several locomotive cabs and info on how a diesel locomotive works. I highly recomend it I would like to know the history of diesels locomotives – image 5
-Brian-

*Proud Supporter of the Cumbres & Toltec Scenic*

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Charter Member · 3259 posts

RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot

Hi,
I am going to take a stab at this, but it will certainly be abbreviated, I would be happy to fill in any voids if you ask followup questions on what I may not cover.
Let's start with EMD (General Motors locomotive subsidary). The FT units came out 1939, and were sold as three or four unit groupings (either A-B-A or A-B-B-A). These had about 1,350 HP (1,000 kW, thus the name FT) and were quickly accepted in the industry as alternatives to steam locomotives. They had D12 generators and D17 traction motors, and had a max continuous effort (pull) of about 31,000 pounds. They weighed about 230,000 pounds on four axles, with a 567 prime mover. Over 1000 combined A & B units were built.
I will jump to the F7, which had 1,500 HP and began production in 1949. These also had D12 generators and D27 traction motors, and a max continuous effort of over 38,000 pound. These weighed 230-234,000 pounds on four axles, and had 567B prime movers. F9 units used 1,300 kW (about 1,750 HP) 567C and replaced the traction motors with D37.
A few months after the F7 units came out, EMD introduced the GP7 which doubled the units versatility. It became a favorite for local freights. The GP9 followed in 1954. Most GP7s were around 244-245,000 pounds and most GP9s were about 247,000 pounds.
The next significant development was the introduction of turbochrgers in the GP20 (actually developed by Union Pacific, and adapted by EMD at their request). These had D22 generators and D47 traction motors, and weighed about 257,000 pounds on four axles. These were originally designed to handle fast freight, which at the time usually meant refrigerator cars. The GP30 perfected the concept, and offered 2,250 HP out of 567D3 turbocharged diesels. Fast roads like Santa Fe bought lots of GP30s to run fruits and vegetables quickly back east from their western growers. The GP35 pushed the 567 to its limits, and they suffered a poorer reputation as the overstressed engines suffered less reliability.
Thhe next Geep that became widespread was the GP40/GP38. Moving to a larger 645 prime mover, the GP40 offered high speed freight ability with reliability. With 3,000 HP in a 275,000 pound locomotive, wheelslip and over cooked traction motors became problematic. Power limiting below 20 mph, solved thes problems to some extent. The un turbocharged versions were GP38s, with 645 prime movers and also getting D77 traction motors like the GP40s. They had 2,000 HP on four axles and generally weighed about 250,000 pounds. Both GP38s and GP40s had 54,700 pounds of continuous tractive effort. Early GP38s got D32 generators, but later ones got AR10 alternators.
With the advent of the GP38-2 and GP40-2, the age of computer controled electricals began. Although CTE was only slightly improved to 55,300 pounds, locomotives finally began to improve on the 24-25% adhesion factor for starting heavy trains. Dash 2 units might get 26-26.5% of weight in starting tractive effort, under good conditions. Not much of a boost, but it started what would later be significant.
GP50s added AR11 generators and D87 traction motors and more computer controls, with a wheelslip limiting system. Producing 3,500 HP from a 645, once again the prime mover was stressed to its limits, and again these were faulted for poor reliability, and not well liked by many train crews. The wheelslip controls were not perfected, and they required a little different handling than prior models.
The GP60 replaced the 645 with a larger 710 prime mover, upped the horsepower to 3,800, and added improved wheelslip control. With the weight of four axle units having reached the practical limit of 280,000 pounds for most roads (governed by the existing rail limits), these units could not really harness the high power for utilitarian service, and were essentially built for high speed intermodal trains. Most roads prefered the six axle SD60 for its ability to handle both priority freight, and with 390-410,000 pounds of weight, its ability to pull heavy freight as well. GP60s can get about 30% of their weight into starting a train under good conditions, and can maintain 67,760 pounds of continuous effort.
I will try the EMD SD series a little later.
hope this helps,
Bob Boudoin

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Member since Jun-18-04 · 594 posts

RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot

I would like to know the history of diesels locomotives – image 6

LAST EDITED ON Aug-10-04 AT 06:58 PM (EST)

As for GE Bob, I'll help you out. But lets start with ALCo.Origonally, General Electric was partners with another locomotive company, ALCo (American Locomotive Company). Alco was originally a Steam locomotive manufacturer, and a mighty good one. They were the masterminds behind the Union Pacific Big Boy and the J3a Hudsons among others.Alco was inisially formed with the take over of several other steam locomtive manufacturers. Alco had solid sales, however it was inconsistant in it's financial performance. Alco even built automobiles for a while. But in 1924 Alco got involved with Ingersoll-Rand along with General Electric and started creating the first diesel locomotives.Electro-Motive division came out with the FT demonstrator in 1939 and by 1947 aproxometly 90% of all new locomotive orders were diesels. Alco and created the RS1, (using GE's electrical componants) which performed well overseas. In 1946, Alco created the FA and the PA (F for freight, P for Passenger) using a GE designed carbody.
By the mid 1950's, Alco produced locomotives with their new 251 engine, however, GE didn't want to stick with them, so Alco had to go off on its own. Alco couldn't produce without GE's reliable electronic supplies, and in 1969, the last Alco was built in their Schenectady plant, and ALCo was finished.General Electric, however, began building its own locomotives, starting with the U- Boat series. Their naming system was simple. The 'U' stands for Universal, the next two digits (i.e. 18, 25, 50) stood for the amount of horsepower (1800, 2500, 5000), and the last digit (B or C) stands for the type of trucks* (B was 2 axles per truck, C was 3 axles per truck. Their U series was quite sucessful.After that they dicided on the Dash-7 Series. (I am assuming 7 because there were 6 models before that) The Dash 7's were initailly U-Boats that were upgraded. (They were designed to compete with EMD's SD40 series, which sold more than the entire U-Boat line) A Railroad could get a Dash-7 with 2300 Horsepower (B23-7) up to 3600 horsepower (B36-7 or C36-7).After the Dash-7's came, you guessed it the Dash 8's. They came with anyware from 3800 hp to (experimental) 4400 horses. You had many options with these. Standard or Wide cabs (for wide cabs they just added a W at the end of the name e.i. C40-8W, the most popular of the Dash 8's) or you could ger them in C or B trucks.Upgrading from the Dash-8's are the Dash 9's. The Dash-9's come in 3 varieties: C40-9, C40-9W, C44-9W. They are Very popular and were picked by Trains Magazine as the Best diesel locomotive ever.Later, GE got into the AC traction craze, created by Burlington Northern and competitors EMD and Siemens. They were essentially Dash 9's with AC traction motors. GE dubbed them AC4400CW and AC4400CW-CTE's with variations.Afterwards, GE upgraded from 4400hp to 6000hp. Thus the AC6000CW, a failure in most sence. Most were downgraded to 4400hp and dubbed the AC44-6's by CSX.Now out by GE are the GEVO economic series. Known as the ES44AC's and ES40DC's in thier 2 variations.
*AKA BogiesThanks for listening, and please correct me if I'm wrong anywheres-Dave

I would like to know the history of diesels locomotives – image 7

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Member since Apr-7-03 · 81 posts

RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot

I would like to know the history of diesels locomotives – image 10

Hello everybody,I would like to thank you for all your answers, your help is very useful for me, if you have the other links, I am a buyer.Still thank's for all.Bye Roderizator

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Charter Member · 3259 posts

RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot

LAST EDITED ON Aug-11-04 AT 02:08 PM (EST)

Hello again,
Glad the other data was helpful! Thanks Dave for handling the GE units. One suggestion, you might download the V4.5 physics files, even if you don't choose to use the physics. The information section will give much of the information about the locomotives in the files, and there are over 70 locomotives modeled. Here are some of the files:
phyv45.zip
dda40x45.zip
cl80v45.zip
emd-fv45.zip
Now as to the EMD SD series, the first generation SD7 units were six axle designs with much of the same electrical and mechanical components as the F7 and GP7. The main difference was that these weighed over 360,000 pounds as operated by most roads (Milwaukee Road had some light 298,000 pound versions for use on low quality local rail lines). This combined with the 24-25% good weather adhesion to allow them to start a much heavier train. In addition, since the 1,500 HP was distributed to six axles instead of four, the additional traction motors allowed these to operate at very slow speeds under full throttle. These became a favorite of ore haulers, which did not need HP for speed to clear their lines, but needed high tractive effort to start and pull their heavy trains. The SD9 upgraded the HP to 1,750, and added improved traction motors as in the GP9. SD7s began production in 1952, SD9s in 1954, and 1,800 HP tweaked SD18s began in 1960. Some SD18s used recyled components from RSD5 Alco tradeins. All these units (SD7,SD9, and SD18) were commonly refered to as Cadillacs.
The SD24 was the initial turbocharged six axle design from EMD, and it sort of changed the way these locomotives were used. Not really the drag specialist like the previous versions, it saw a lot of road service on merchandise freights, and often combined with other types to run priority consists with long trains. Union Pacific frequently used the SD24 in combination with GE U50B units on long fast merchandise freights. It was common to see GP40s and U25Bs with SD24s running on the BN as well. These usually operated at just under 375,000 pounds.
The SD35 was the next version, and the last to use the 567 prime mover. It began production in 1964. These were mainly used by Eastern railroads on coal service. At about 174 metric tons, these could start a pretty heavy train even with 25% adhesion. The SD35 used D67 traction motors and D32 generators. A nonturbocharged SD28 was also available, but only 6 units were made.
The SD45 was the next version to come out, beginning production in 1965. It used 20 cylinder in place of 16 cylinder prime movers, and had 3,600 HP. Going to the 645 series engine, these were intended to give fast roads way to step up the line speeds on through priority consists. Santa Fe in particular used a lot of these on their reefer trains, and it was common to see 4 SD45s blasting alongside Route 66 in Arizona and New Mexico, with lots of orange reefers in tow. The SD45 was not really as widely accepted as EMD had expected, partly because of problems with the long crankshaft, but more fundamentally, it used more fuel, and few roads could use the extra speed. At typical 385,000 pound weights, it was limited by its adhesion and traction motors. The SD40 came out about a year later. It would match an SD45 in most performance up to about 40-45 mph, and since both had the same traction motors and weight, it had the same starting tractive effort and continuous tractive effort as the more powerful SD45. It became a well liked unit for all kinds of service. The unturbocharged SD38 came out in 1967, and it was mostly used by mining roads to replace aging SD7s. It had 2,000 HP but at about 373 metric tons, it would start about as heavy a train as a SD45, it just would not move it as fast, or accelerate as quickly from stops. Since neither of these factors bothered the mining roads, they were prefered for their simplicity and reliability.
The SD40-2 added computer electronics and became one of EMDs most popular locomotives. Almost 4,000 units were sold in the US and Canada. These were built most commonly on 387,500 pound versions, but some were as light as 358,000 pounds built especially for the Milwaukee Road to handle their light track, up to 418,000 pound coal hauling heavyweights. The heavy SD40-2s could actually start a significantly heavier train than a more powerful but lighter SD45.
The SD50, like the GP50, added wheelslip control, and brought horsepower back up to 3,500-3,600 but out of 16 instead of 20 cylinders. These units were stressed very hard in the 645 configuration, and the wheelslip controls made the units buck and shake and squal under load, and crews had not really figured out how to appreciate the new technology, so they wwere not always well liked.
The SD60 added the 710 prime mover and at 3,800 HP and 395-400,000 pound typical weights, these were used in all types of service. The wheelslip control was improved, and adhesion got up around 30% of weight.
The SD70 moved to 4,000 horsepower and came in both the DC SD70M and the AC SD70Mac. The DC version was mainly used by Union Pacific and Norfolk Southern. These tended to be assigned to priority consists which in modern freight is usually intermodal and autorack trains. The DC equipment has a little advantage in acceleration over the AC models, and is much less expensive. Since these trains are usually lighter, the additional tractive effort of AC locomotives is not needed. The SD70M units can get 32-34% adhesion under good conditions.
The SD70Mac units use AC traction motors and computer controls to get over 40% adhesion. At 410-424,500 pounds, these units are able to put up to 180,000 pounds toward starting a heavy train under ideal conditions, but most are rated at 175,000 pounds for the typical 415,000 pound units seen on BNSF. They can hold a continuous 137,000 pound tractive effort, and maintian this at very slow speeds. EMD units maintain traction control at the truck level, which may slightly handicap them in comparison to GE AC units which control at the axle level.
The SD90Mac was the EMD attempt to move railroads to 6,000 HP units. Not many roads have been pleased with these units on high speed intermodal service, and many have been downgraded to 4,300 HP SD90/43s. These are popular on the Union Pacific in coal and low priority trains. The irony is that you often see the high tech SD90/43Macs on the low tech drag freights with tank cars and gondolas.
The SD75 was another attempt to upgrade the performance of the DC SD70M. It added 4,500 HP in early Santa Fe units, but was lowered to 4,300 HP to get better reliability in most of the orders. These used to run mainly on the high speed consists, but a few are now slipping back into general service.
Hope this helps, and please ask questions if this does not cover your needed information.
Bob Boudoin

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Member since Apr-7-03 · 81 posts

RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot

I would like to know the history of diesels locomotives – image 11

hello,Still thank you in all for your answers, I have just ordered on Amazon.com the following 2 books:"Modern Diesel Locomotives (Enthusiast Color Series)" by Hans Halberstadt;Paperback"Vintage Diesel Locomotives (Enthusiast Color Series)" by Mike Schafer;Paperback
And I continuous to read your post and to learn, all your Answers is really of a very big help.Still thank you for everything.Bye, Roderizator.

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Member since Jun-18-04 · 594 posts

RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot

I would like to know the history of diesels locomotives – image 12

Wow you are the man Bob I'm an EMD fan but I was just looking at the Trains ALCo and GE issue from a few years back so I figured that I could lend You a hand -Dave

I would like to know the history of diesels locomotives – image 13

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Member since Apr-7-03 · 81 posts

RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot

I would like to know the history of diesels locomotives – image 14

Hello my Freinds,I would have a question to posed concerning the "EMD GP60" and the "EMD SD40".When I see the "GP60" and at the "SD40", I have the sentation that they are the same locomotives.Which are differences enter these two locomotives.Still thank you for your answers and your help.Roderizator.

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Charter Member · 3259 posts

RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot

Although superficially resembling each other, the GP60 and the SD40-2 (most in the sim are SD40-2 not SD40s) are really very different locomotives.
The SD40-2 has 3,000 HP from a 645 series engine. It has six axles, and the traction motors are D77. The most important distinction is that it weighs typivally 387,500 pounds (177 metric tons). With a 26.5% adhesion, this means that it can create more than 102,650 pounds (456.8kN) of force to start a train. Further, since it has more traction motors than a GP60, the electric current is distributed through more motors, and thus less heat is built up in any one motor. This enables the SD40-2 to operate at full throttle down to 11.1 mph with typical gearing, at which speed it will be making slightly over 369 kN of force.
The GP60 has 3,800 horsepower from a 710 series engine. It has only four axles, and it uses D87 traction motors. It will weigh between 278-287,000 pounds (about 129 metric tons). Since it has more sophisticated computer controls and wheelslip limitation, it is able to get about 32% adhesion under good conditions. Thus it will only have about 90,000 pounds of force to start a train. Now the four axles on the GP60 will only allow it to operate with a continuous force of less than 297 KN.
From this you can see that the SD40-2 will be a much better choice for pulling a very heavy train where the grades will pull the minimum speed at full throttle very near its minimum continuous speed. The SD40-2 will have about 73 additional newtons of force to keep the heavy train moving at those very slow speeds.
Now the GP60 will be a better choice to pull a light intermodal or TOFC consist, particularly where high speed running is allowed. The extra horsepower of the GP60 will enable it to pull the light train faster, and since it is lighter, it will not need as much to lift it over the grade as the SD40-2, thus it won't slow down as much on the grades with a light train. Additionally, the GP60s extra horsepower will enable it to accelerate the light train more quickly to the track speed after it has had to make a stop. Thus it will keep a priority light train more closely on schedule.
Hope this helps,
Bob

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Member since Aug-8-04 · 12 posts

RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot

>Hello everybody,
>
>I would like to thank you for all your answers, your help is
>very useful for me, if you have the other links, I am a
>buyer.
>
>Still thank's for all.
>
>Bye Roderizator Kalmbach Publications www.kalmbach.com (publishers of Model Railroader magazine) do several books on locomotives, including one on the first fifty years of diesels. Interesting read.

Barry
Certified Old Fart
=========================
Any opinion expressed above is hereby warranted to be worth exactly what you paid for it.

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Charter Member · 3872 posts

RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot

I would like to know the history of diesels locomotives – image 15

Does (the ex-) GEC Alsthom have anything to do with General Electric? Did they merge or something?

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Anyway, I warned you not waste time reading my signature! You have just wasted probably about 30 seconds reading it, where you could have spent the time doing better things, like maybe reading the next post below if there is one...

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Member since Aug-8-04 · 12 posts

RE: I would like to know the history of diesels locomot

>Does (the ex-) GEC Alsthom have anything to do with General
>Electric? Did they merge or something? You need to go back a long way into history for this. I think that GE (US) and GEC (UK) were at one time the same company that split up and are now independent of each other, and have been for years - but I stand to be corrected.

Barry
Certified Old Fart
=========================
Any opinion expressed above is hereby warranted to be worth exactly what you paid for it.

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