X,Y,Z tracks: a confusing array!

With so many track systems coming out I'm really lost.1. Can I make a straight forward swap with any of these new track systems with MSTS default tracks?2. Can I do the same with Scalerail (which incidentally, I could not find in the DL library)?3. Is it possible to have a complete listing of all alternative track systems? Mike

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RE: X,Y,Z tracks: a confusing array!, whleighton, Aug-07-04, 11:33 AM, (1) RE: X,Y,Z tracks: a confusing array!, OTTODAD, Aug-07-04, 12:30 PM, (2) RE: X,Y,Z tracks: a confusing array!, sinclair97, Aug-07-04, 01:33 PM, (3) RE: X,Y,Z tracks: a confusing array!, OTTODAD, Aug-07-04, 03:15 PM, (5) RE: X,Y,Z tracks: a confusing array!, markhyams, Aug-08-04, 06:30 PM, (16) RE: X,Y,Z tracks: a confusing array!, Hack, Aug-07-04, 02:44 PM, (4) RE: X,Y,Z tracks: a confusing array!, sinclair97, Aug-07-04, 03:25 PM, (6) RE: X,Y,Z tracks: a confusing array!, OTTODAD, Aug-07-04, 03:32 PM, (7) RE: X,Y,Z tracks: a confusing array!, brooksy, Aug-07-04, 07:42 PM, (8) RE: X,Y,Z tracks: a confusing array!, OTTODAD, Aug-07-04, 08:08 PM, (9) ScalerailS by 3DTraiN???, sniper297, Aug-07-04, 10:08 PM, (10) RE: ScalerailS by 3DTraiN???, sinclair97, Aug-08-04, 04:07 PM, (11) RE: ScalerailS by 3DTraiN???, thenudehamster, Aug-08-04, 05:22 PM, (12) RE: ScalerailS by 3DTraiN???, sinclair97, Aug-08-04, 06:01 PM, (13) RE: X,Y,Z tracks: a confusing array!, Roman, Aug-08-04, 06:22 PM, (14) RE: X,Y,Z tracks: a confusing array!, brooksy, Aug-08-04, 07:39 PM, (20) RE: X,Y,Z tracks: a confusing array!, markhyams, Aug-08-04, 06:25 PM, (15) RE: X,Y,Z tracks: a confusing array!, sinclair97, Aug-08-04, 07:10 PM, (17) RE: X,Y,Z tracks: a confusing array!, heffed, Aug-08-04, 07:33 PM, (18) RE: X,Y,Z tracks: a confusing array!, sniper297, Aug-08-04, 07:35 PM, (19) RE: X,Y,Z tracks: a confusing array!, OTTODAD, Aug-08-04, 07:55 PM, (21) RE: X,Y,Z tracks: a confusing array!, sinclair97, Aug-09-04, 08:25 AM, (22) RE: X,Y,Z tracks: a confusing array!, OTTODAD, Aug-09-04, 11:08 AM, (23)

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Mike,You can get ScaleRail at Marc's site, here:http://www.3dtrains.com/products/scalerail.shtmlBill

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Hi Mike !The complete array of what tracks there are and who made them you can read about at the top of the Tsection.dat.Xtracks and Mark Hyams "Smoother Tracks" are direct replacements for the MSTS Default tracks with the exception of some additional Switches and Track Pieces provided by Okrasa.Y-Tracks are much improved Switches and straight tracks to match, not replacing MSTS Default pieces but are additional sections compatible with them and the textures they use.SCALERAILS, UK-FINESCALE, Narrow Gauge, Double Gauge, 3rd Rail and similar are standalone track systems, although SCALERAILS can replace MSTS Default tracks with some effort and some of the others can co-exist with MSTS Default tracks in the same route side by side.O t t o

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Hi Otto,First, how do I get Xtracks to replace a default route in MSTS?Second, Can I just do a copy and paste of the Cascades tracks into the relevant folders?
Third, Does Smoother Tracks, apart from straightening out the kinks, change the look of MSTS default tracks?Mike

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Hi Mike !XTracks do not change the shape or appearance of MSTS default tracks, but include a number of additional track sections and switches which if a route does not have them are of no use to it. Some of the default track pieces had flaws, hardly noticed by many, which were corrected by Okrasa."Smoother Tracks" are a replacement for the default large radius curves and apart from taking the kinks out of bends do not change them otherwise.To use ScaleRail in a Route all Default MSTS tracks and switches have to be replaced with their ScaleRail equivalent and as they have different file names they need to be replaced in the World Tiles using Route Riter or do it manually one by one in the RE, followed by a TDB Rebuild to record the changes.Routes which use non-default MSTS switches or other Gauges not available in ScaleRail can not have them changed of course.O t t o

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>To use ScaleRail in a Route all Default MSTS tracks and
>switches have to be replaced with their ScaleRail equivalent
>and as they have different file names they need to be
>replaced in the World Tiles using Route Riter or do it
>manually one by one in the RE, followed by a TDB
>Rebuild to record the changes. Actually a TDB is not required to record the changes. If you change the track pieces out in the RE, then the RE updates the TDB as you go. If you use the Route-Riter method of editing .w files, a TDB is not required either, as each piece you are replacing with ScaleRail has the exact same geometry, so the TDB doesn't need any updating.Mark

Moffat Road Tabernash to Phippsburg
All track complete
Currently working on Mtracks

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"ScaleRail", not "SCALERAILS."Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.comPro Series SuperPacks

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Otto,That information helps but you didn't say whether I could "hack" (forgive the pun)the tracks from the Cascades route into a route that utilises MSTS default type track.Mike

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-07-04 AT 03:37 PM (EST)

Mike,> but you didn't say whether I could "hack" (forgive the pun) the tracks
> from the Cascades route into a route that utilises MSTS default type track. The Cascades route is using MSTS default Tracks. If you meant ScaleRail then this applies:To use ScaleRail in a Route all Default MSTS tracks and switches have to be replaced with their ScaleRail equivalent and as they have different file names they need to be replaced in the World Tiles using Route Riter or do it manually one by one in the RE, followed by a TDB Rebuild to record the changes.O t t o

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Confusing? yes but some great additions to the default tracks.
Otto, whats the latest with regards to YTracks?
I still have the original beta slips etc installed but at some stage I want to add the changes Roman made to give the node points.
I want to leave this until there is a definitive final to the building of YTracks.
Can you advise please?
Cheers

Nocturnal Flightless Bird

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Hi Neville !The latest Y-Tracks for developers are here: www.otto-wipfel.co.uk/downloads/y-tracks-00025.zipThey include the Slips which had their Nodes seen to and are as far as I know the final versions as listed in the Tsection.dat 00025.There are still some untextured minor pieces and the 2-way Y-Switch, but that should not stop you laying them before they are textured, their physics remaining the same.Summer is not the best of times for a Family man to spend hours in front of his Computer Monitor. I got nothing better to do ! Before you apply the latest Tsection.dat 00025, which no longer lists the earlier version of the Slips, you will need to remove the older Slips if you got some in your Route, prior to relaying them with the newer ones using the 00025. If you have already updated your Tsection.dat and did not keep a copy of the earlier version, let me know and I will E-Mail you a copy of a 00025 which still includes the older Slips.As soon as Roman has finished what cosmetics are left to do then Y-Tracks will become part of Xtracks, which Okrasa kindly agreed to do for him.Take Care, O t t o.

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It's a confusing situation, Mike. In the beginning, some people noticed that there were 250 meter radius single track curves, and double slip switches, had the shapes in the global folder but they weren't in the selection list. KUJU did what was probably the wierdest programming on record, which is why this is so difficult to comprehend, so pay close attention.In the \Global folder is a file called tsection.dat. This is the ref file for all the sectional track shapes. In most routes you will also find a file named tsection.dat, but it's a completely different animal - all the dynamic track in the route is listed and numbered in the route's tsection.dat file. KUJU in their infinite wisdom assigned numbers to each of the sectional track pieces in the global tsection.dat file (again, NOT THE SAME THING as the tsection.dat found in the route folders) and reserved some numbers for dynamic track. When route developers started "activating" the "missing shape" track sections, they had to add them to the global tsection.dat file, and that made the route work with a double slip switch, but now no other routes (including defaults) would work since they weren't compatible with the new global tsection.dat. That's why people today still sniff suspiciously at Xtracks, the first versions of Xtracks were incompatible with defaults, and other people had their own versions of specialized track that were not compatible with either. Along came David Beach and the "Standardized tsection.dat", now anyone who made a new track section sent it to David to add to the next version. For the end user this was a godsend, since the Standardized tsection.dat was backwards compatible with the default KUJU tracks plus all previous Xtracks versions. The only problem still remaining is if you're a route developer, the PO&N for example has a lot of dynamic track in it, and to add a doubleslip or any other Xtracks section I would need to run Horace.exe on the route first, to convert all the existing numbers originally assigned by the KUJU global tsection.dat file.So what does all that mean? If you're planning to hack an existing route in the route editor, and add Xtracks where there were none before, you'll need to run Horace first. If it's already an Xtracks route and you have the Standardized tsection.dat in your global folder, you don't need to worry about it.I've never played with Ytracks and don't have Cascades, but for Scale RaiL (Marc says no S!) you can use Route Riter to replace the shapes. http://www.train-sim.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=3896&forum=DCForumID15&omm=12&viewmode=http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID3/24290.htmlI don't know how that would work if you added more ScaleRail tracks afterwards, again MSTS assigns a unique number to each track section, and the upper limits and reserved numbers were assigned in a way that made adding more track sections a wierd and difficult process. So unless you're working on a new route or have Horaced an existing route AND you're working from the Standardized tsection.dat, there's no guarantee of compatibility.One word about TDB rebuilds, the .tdb and .tit files in the root of each route are the track database, that's what the train actually drives on. What you see is the shape file itself, as listed in the \World\whatever.w files. So in the case of ScaleRail what I did was a direct replacement of the shapes alone, and since the ScaleRail equivelants of the default track section have the same size footprint, there's no visible gaps. Here's a datablock from an umcompressed .w file;TrackObj (
UiD ( 8 )
SectionIdx ( 2 )
Elevation ( 0 )
CollideFlags ( 583 )
FileName ( A1t100mstrt.s )
StaticFlags ( 00200180 )
Position ( 665.843 -0.873085 -219.78 )
QDirection ( 0 0.573684 0 0.819077 )
VDbId ( 4294967294 )
StaticDetailLevel ( 0 )
)When you run the advanced TDB rebuild, the track database is built from those numbers, except that the actual shape file itself is irrelevant - I could change that to;TrackObj (
UiD ( 8 )
SectionIdx ( 2 )
Elevation ( 0 )
CollideFlags ( 583 )
FileName ( A1t10mstrt.s )
StaticFlags ( 00200180 )
Position ( 665.843 -0.873085 -219.78 )
QDirection ( 0 0.573684 0 0.819077 )
VDbId ( 4294967294 )
StaticDetailLevel ( 0 )
)And the TDB would rebuild that section according to the position and qdirection numbers, with a visible 10 meter straight and 90 meters of invisible track. You could even replace the shape with something stupid like a grove of trees, as long as the numbers remain the same the train will drive right thru without knowing the difference.Marc, I've heard PN&O, P&ON, and even P.O.R.N. for 3 years now, so you got an uphill battle to convince people it's ScaleRail, not ScaleRailS, and no stuff, just trains. If it will help I can always form my own virtual company, just to confuse the hell out of everybody.

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-08-04 AT 04:07 PM (EST)

Jim,I appreciate the trouble you took to write all that, which couldn't have been easy with kids to look after, a job to go, a route to finish, and them dogs...to look after.I think a lot of people like me who don't have degrees in rocket science (MSTS knowledge same thing), want "Oven ready tracks" which preferably otto-install...sorry I meant auto-install. So is there a package out there that is "oven ready"?
Marc,
Have you heard of the saying "If you can't beat em, join em!" ScalerailsMike

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I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that, AS FAR AS I AM AWARE (cos nothing's gospel with MSTS) there is no 'aftermarket' trackage system that can be dropped into place to replace the default Kuju system. I wish it weren't so, but, hey, how else would we have so much fun?

Barry
Certified Old Fart
=========================
Any opinion expressed above is hereby warranted to be worth exactly what you paid for it.

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-08-04 AT 06:02 PM (EST)

Well! anyone got anything to say?
MikeCertified

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Hi brooksy,the summer vacation is over now, and I will do my homework more frequently The latest, revised version for sgl- and dblslp shapes is in the works. I did the blades like those in the 3way points. The next will be the shapes for the standard points followed by the y-point.
I expect the final version of the slips end of this week, the standard points end of next week and another week for the y-point.
So overall and with the usual unforseen issues end of september is the scheduled date for the updated version of Y-tracks including all revised shapes and the new ones for the 3-ways and the Y-point.
The sections remain unchanged, but the shapes are subject to cosmetic changes ( kinks in blades and so on )
Hope that helpsRoman

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Thanks for the response Otto and Roman."Summer time" heck it's the middle of winter down here. Roaring fires and computers, just love it. Had minus 3d celcius here last week, must be about 30f for upside down and wrong side of the road driving folks up North?September isn't to far away so I guess I'll wait for the official announcement from Roman and do it all in one hit. Not looking forward to doing all those slips again however.
Certainly appreciate your work here guys in giving us some great track shapes.
Cheers

Nocturnal Flightless Bird

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Here is my understanding of the situation:xtracks, ytracks, ScaleRail, mtracks, tramtracks, narrow guage, dual guage, etc. all fall under the same category. That is, they are add-ons to the original, default tracks that require a copy of the non-default, standardized tsection.dat file.If you are not a route-builder, but only a user, it is a simple matter of downloading the appropriate .s (shape) and .sd (shape data) files, and then installing a copy of the standardized tsection.dat file.If you are a route-builder or route-hacker, you MAY need to run Horace on a given route, which as Jim mentioned above, updates the index numbers for the dynamic track pieces on a route. You need to run Horace if this applies to the route in question:You are modifying a route that was created with the default tsection.dat file, AND it has dynamic track in it.You do not need to run Horace if any of these apply to the route in question:You create a route after switching to the standardized tsection.dat.
You are modifying a route that has no dynamic track in it.
You are not modifying a route, but only running it.As far as "swapping" goes there are only two packages that I know of. One is xtracks. "Hey wait a minute" you say "I thought xtracks was an add-on?" It is, but in that package, there are also some replacement shapes for the original tracks, like the 10d switches, which you can use without updating the tsection.dat file. The other is my "Smooth Tracks" or whatever you want to call them. These are replacement shapes for the default curves, to make them appear less jagged. In both cases, you just replace shape files in the GLOBAL/SHAPES folder, and no route editor time or tsection.dat modification is needed.I hope this clears things up!Mark

Moffat Road Tabernash to Phippsburg
All track complete
Currently working on Mtracks

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You made your mistake in assuming I was bright: never assume anything.I am still confused! what I want to do in a step-by-step process is steal...I mean swap them nice lookin tracks from the Cascades route and put them into another route yeah!Mike

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I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) MLT is using default tracks with custom textures. So it should be as easy as copying the textures over to the other route.-Jeff

Union Pacific fan.

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I don't have Cascades, and somebody said Cascades uses default tracks, so could you post a ("a" means ONE, not four hundred thousand) picture of these Cascades tracks?

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Mike,as Jeff says, simply copy the Acleantrack1.ace and the Acleantrack2.ace from the CASCADES TEXTURES Folder to any Route you would like to see them in, after having backed up that Route's versions first in case you want to use them again.O t t o

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Jeff, and Otto,Is that all I have to do to get wonderful tracks? I'm a happy man. Jim,Ok, I'll email you a "screenshot" of the Cascades tracks". Mike

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Yes Mike !And once you got used to doing that you can then download my selection of Rails and Trackbeds textures from: www.otto-wipfel.co.uk/downloads/tracks.zip and have different looking tracks for every day of the week !Put them into your MSTS\UTILS folder and use them as and when, removing the File Name prefix right up to the AcleanTrack after you copied them into the destination Route's TEXTURES folder.O t t o

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