New TrainMaster to replace MSTS

Whoopee! It will import all the MSTS stuff and give it accurate physics!http://raildriver.com/rdfree/tsnews.phpSo, go to the TrainMaster section of the forums.

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RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, Thirdrail70, May-12-04, 07:36 PM, (1) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, Richard, May-12-04, 10:19 PM, (2) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, stationmaster, May-12-04, 11:44 PM, (3) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, driver89, May-13-04, 02:59 AM, (5) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, Vern, May-13-04, 04:43 PM, (12) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, brucek, May-13-04, 01:02 AM, (4) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, csantucci, May-13-04, 05:37 AM, (6) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, OTTODAD, May-13-04, 07:18 AM, (7) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, OTTODAD, May-13-04, 08:35 AM, (8) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, buzzbenz, May-13-04, 10:19 AM, (9) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, jorge, May-13-04, 12:21 PM, (10) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, OTTODAD, May-13-04, 04:18 PM, (11) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, chucksc, May-13-04, 05:24 PM, (13) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, MOOSE49, May-13-04, 07:35 PM, (14) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, buzzbenz, May-13-04, 09:17 PM, (17) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, chucksc, May-13-04, 10:26 PM, (19) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, MOOSE49, May-13-04, 11:11 PM, (21) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, OTTODAD, May-13-04, 09:55 PM, (18) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, Vince, May-14-04, 01:18 AM, (22) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, DJShepley, May-14-04, 12:30 PM, (29) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, NoMoreTrains, May-13-04, 08:16 PM, (15) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, buzzbenz, May-13-04, 09:09 PM, (16) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, Stumbl, May-13-04, 10:36 PM, (20) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, OTTODAD, May-14-04, 07:03 AM, (23) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, trainmaster_1, May-14-04, 07:46 AM, (24) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, Stumbl, May-14-04, 08:00 AM, (25) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, sinclair97, May-14-04, 07:00 PM, (34) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, TedB, May-14-04, 10:41 PM, (36) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, CWA13000, May-14-04, 09:32 AM, (26) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, VonSmallhausen, May-14-04, 11:17 AM, (27) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, chucksc, May-14-04, 12:20 PM, (28) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, MOOSE49, May-14-04, 07:38 PM, (35) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, wws04662, May-14-04, 01:08 PM, (30) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, drjoe, May-14-04, 01:42 PM, (31) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, buzzbenz, May-14-04, 02:10 PM, (32) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, roeter, May-14-04, 03:52 PM, (33) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, jorge, May-15-04, 01:48 AM, (37) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, OTTODAD, May-15-04, 09:46 AM, (38) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, Paul_Boland, May-31-04, 02:40 PM, (39) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, marois999, May-31-04, 02:50 PM, (40) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, stryder47, May-31-04, 11:12 PM, (44) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, mjs2101, May-31-04, 11:57 PM, (45) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, carlosgomes, May-31-04, 06:36 PM, (41) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, Magick_maker, May-31-04, 07:49 PM, (42) RE: New TrainMaster to replace MSTS, OTTODAD, May-31-04, 08:06 PM, (43)

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As with TrainArtisan's announcement, this is more good news. I believe that as long as everything is MSTS compatable, there is room for multiple versions of the basic software, perhaps each with its own unique competing features. In the toy train arena, we see Lionel, K-Line, Mike's Train House, Atlas and many others all making compatable model trains to the same (3-rail AC) format begun by Lionel around the turn of the previous century. Perhaps this will become the model for MSTS manufacturers. With more commercial ventures we may even see a magazine (or 2) devoted to the digital railroading hobby such as flight simmers have with "Computer Pilot".Frederick Dreany
Island Electric, East

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It will import MSTS routes!!!! Thank you Michael Hetherington And the best part of the deal, now my RailDriver desktop controller will actually be a part of the sim package verses the awkward arrangement that is required with MSTS. Great news all around Take care,
Rich S.

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Converting shape files (.s) to another format may prove difficult. It has also proven to be a "3rd-Rail" topic in the past, but with cancellation of MSTS-2, I suppose there may be a change of heart.But as long as they design it so that models can be imported from common 3D formats, everyone but TSM modelers should be OK (Not sure about G-Max).

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>Converting shape files (.s) to another format may prove
>difficult. It has also proven to be a "3rd-Rail" topic in
>the past, but with cancellation of MSTS-2, I suppose there
>may be a change of heart.
>
>But as long as they design it so that models can be imported
>from common 3D formats, everyone but TSM modelers should be
>OK (Not sure about G-Max). Sorry for butting in here, but I don't see what the problem would be in terms of technology. Anyone whose been following the forums for a while knows that there are a few decompilers out there that will allow you to take a .S shape file and re-import it into studio max. The question isn't can it be done but, it is ethical. That is should someone be able to import a model done by someone else, change a few things, and then essentially re-export it as their own model. I think the answer to that question is no.
A program that does the conversion for you without changing the shape file or re-importing a model into studio max (or similar program) would not be that hard and would be a lot more eithical. Mainly because the same shape file would still exist and it would be nearly impossible to pass it off as you own content.
Anyone who knows my MSTS models and has seen them re-exported for Trainz would know that a shape file does not need to be re-done to get it to work in another program. Sure there were a few naming conventions that needed to be changed, but the model is the same.
This of course raises the next question, which pertains to copyrighted material. Myself of MLT would have no objections to you converting either the Bridge Line or Cascades route for you own use. You could even update it on you own time to take advantage of some of the new features the new software allows, as long as it's for you own personal use. Basically that means you couldn't convert it, or fix it up and re-distribute it for general consumption.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents. The thing I like about a conversion program is, it's easy to spot copyright theft, however as long as you don't try to steal it, it'll convert. Agreed it might not take advantage of all the new bells and whistles, but that means it's up to the original author to decide whether or not to do an upgrade.Cheers,
James.

"Well, you know boys, a nuclear reactor is a lot like a women. You just have to read the manual and press the right buttons." Homer Simpson

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I'm sure this is an issue we will come back to, not least because many freeware routes contain copious amounts of MS/Kuju default material. That could mean a slightly complex conversion process and of course possible copyright issues. The relevant files would have to be called from the user's MSTS install, converted then placed in the route file of new programme.I would hazard a suggestion that most freeware route authors will probably strip out the MS default material and replace it with TMTS defaults prior to distribution, albeit that would be a daunting task on some routes.

Chief Track Welder

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This is simply excellent news. Thanks for the heads-up, Ed.Bruce.

AustRail

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This is great news!Hope there will be a better activity editor!
When will the product be available?Carlo

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LAST EDITED ON May-13-04 AT 07:25 AM (EDT)

It must be CHRISTMAS or my BIRTHDAY ! This is the best present I could have wished for !Needless to say that PIEngineering have my fullest support in all their endeavours to make
TMTS the best Train Simulator ever !!! CHEERS ! O t t oP.S.: Just realised, it's the 13th today, 13 always having been a lucky number for me ! Who else has passed their Driving Test on a FRIDAY the 13th ?

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TMTS also means that I can carry on using presents from friends in the Community like these:OTTODAD-BNSF Loco from Cyndi (BNSFLADY)
WIPFEL-Lager freight cars from Frank Carver (EMUFARMER)
PON-8 WIPFEL STATION and COGNAC TANK from Jim WARD (SNIPER)THANKS to all my friends in the Train Sim community for making my old age live an enjoyable one !!! TAKE CARE, O t t o.

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This is most excellent news!!I want to give a BIG "Thank You!" to the RailDriver folks for their effort in this, and everyone in the community who is assisting them!I personally think that the goal is attainable. Kuju may have not been able to make a very stable simulator, but on the other hand, they were "rushed". Probably still attempted to use the same game engine for the sequel too... But we have seen utilities like Shape File Viewer which can actually load and disply models just fine that will crash MSTS! So making something that can read the .s files (even if only to convert them) has also proved do-able.TrainMaster as is seems to be able to run realistic physics fine, and we have seen individual attempts to make simulations that can reproduce fantastic steam and even track sway! So we know that is possible as well.Now, obviously the task of morphing all of that together is going to be a challenge, but i have the utmost confidence that PI can do it, especially if we as a community stand behind them and offer to help any way we can. We still have MSTS, and while buggy and it does run. We always have new stuff coming out for it too, and there is enough there to keep us busy for quite a little while. So PI Engineering can take all the time they need to get their simulator right.----------- BUZZ -----------

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Is it just me or does a strategic alliance between PI and TA not seem like a reasonable thought? Have these two parties even thought about talking to each other? If they are both looking to build the next TrainSim, might it not be a bad idea to consolidate/merge?

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Jorge !I don't think that collaboration between TA and PIE would be such a good idea for the simple reason that PIE are forward looking, although trying to take on board much of the old MSTS as feasible, albeit converted to their Graphics Engine and TRAINMASTER coding technology.TA on the other hand are backward looking, having worked with KUJU and M$ on MSTS-2, more or less the same as MSTS-1 but dressed up to look different !Mixing these two together is likely to water down the progress PIEngineering have in mind for their new TMTS ! O t t o

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OH B.S. Otto.....TA would bring a much higher graphical and modeling standard to TMTS than TM presently exhibits....Just my .02Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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Chuck, you're right on the graphics thing in my opinion. However T/A has a lousy track record when it comes to actully delivering on a promise. Also they don't seem to care if they aleinate there customers by not providing support or even a simple note saying we'll be away for awhile. They are however very good at telling us of all the wonderfull things they are going to do! T/A is also fluent at telling us how much better they are than all the rest. Would you like to team up with and pseudo-elitest bunch like Master Lum and friends appear to be?

JEFF

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JEFF,TA has done many amazing things for MSTS so far.
I know that many are still a little bitter at them, but remember - they were working with Microsoft and Kuju over the last year on MSTS2. They obviously COULDN'T tell their customers and fans what they've been up to - the MS/Kuju NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreement) would have prevented them from doing that!Cut 'em a little slack man! It's obvious that they had a lot invested in MSTS2 only to have it all vaporize. The .mpgs of the beginnings of their sim show a lot of progress! Looks like they already have a basic game engine there...Personally though, i really don't care one way or the other whether or not a collaboration takes place between PIE and TA. If there is one, excellent! We get the best of both worlds in one sim! If not, then it's quite possible we'll have TWO more excellent sims to choose from (and i'd own both if that did happen too! ).----------- BUZZ -----------

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And remember Buzz in the early days WE did a lot of collaboration with both them and CLW....
Witness our GG1 pack (with CLW which later merged into TA) and the NH package(s) PA and EP5... IIRC We got those passenger cars straight from TA and they even repainted them for us....
FWIW, I never found any of them arrogant or standoffish to myself or any of my team!Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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Buzz, ok I will. However they do need to communicate better than they have in the past.

JEFF

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Sorry Chuck, but I think that PIE are going to be more concerned with the NUTS and BOLTS to make sure that their TMTS is functioning perfectly from the Railways Engineering point of view. No more broken Couplers, Locos without round, flanged wheels not touching the rails and the likes. I am helping to make sure that the Tracks and Switches for it are going to be of the highest standards if MSTS tracks can be used with it.And most of all a vastly improved Routes Editor which I do not think we can expect from TA ?There are plenty of excellent Graphics designers in the Community, 3D Trains and Clem to mention but two as far as Rolling Stock is concerned and with regards to Scenery and Objects in it, there are not many better than the SEAVIEW and the WUPPER EXPRESS Crews, Rich Garber, Jim Ward and many others.O t t o

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I'd buy TMTS even if it had NO routes or trains. No copywrite problems for PI at all.

Regards,
Vince Cockeram
NEC Track Team
Author of the NECv4 Route

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Well said...damn well said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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LAST EDITED ON May-13-04 AT 08:21 PM (EDT)

Awesome news! I can hardly wait. Now if only PIE would release their control stand version of RailDriver to go with it ... EDIT: I know I've said it before, but I hope they have Gmax and 3D Canvas support as well.

Ray

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> EDIT: I know I've said it before, but I hope they have Gmax and 3D
> Canvas support as well. I've already begun a "3D Canvas" support crusade At any rate, worst case scenario, if TMTS can import MSTS models, then 3DC can obviously be used to make an MSTS model and then convert it to a TMTS format.----------- BUZZ -----------

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Otto, why don't you program something in DOS that WILL finally WORK for a CHANGE instead of.....
never mind

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Yes, Bob, I wish I were younger and could get my teeth into something like a TRAIN SIM, DOS or not. So I am helping PIE instead, suppling them with bucket loads of ideas about what it should do and how. Remember the days when we had Graphics in DOS and for a long while after Windows appeared had many Games and Sims still using that technology, making them run blindingly fast, using their own Graphics Drivers ?Graphics nowadays are trying to do too much and unless the hardware is up to them in every aspect then perfection and performance is likely to suffer.But that has nothing to do with the way the underlying program code is designed in the first place. If that is not efficient in the way it handles it's Graphics Code then it's like putting low grade petrol/gas into a high performance engine car's tank. We shall see who is going to come up with the better TRAIN SIM, if TA still think of doing one of their own. My money is PIENGINEERING, they got a better start using their TRAINMASTER code !

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This is gonna be sweet...........but just one question when they release anytime soon probably in a year or less, will it hit the retail stores or you have to buy it online when it comes out?
I know that now TMTS will be a recreation of MSTS don't ya think but better with better utilities, graphics codes. The basic target feature set of TrainMaster Train Simulator:
1. A simulator that reproduces the basic features of MSTS.
2. The ability to read, convert and up-grade MSTS models and routes.
3. Realistic physics systems for control and train dynamics supporting a greater variety of equipment (steam through modern high-speed electrics).
4. Complete support for unique signal systems.
5. Utilization of today’s graphic engine features.
6. Support of many commercially available add-ons and development tools.
7. Direct support of all RailDriver functions.
8. 3D cabs.
9. Simple integration of 3rd party material.
10. Open and defined architecture for models, textures, routes, scripts and file organization.
11. Greater flexibility in activity design.
12. Minimal bugs.
If they say they'll do it then they'll do it,I hope things get better for TMTS and the train-sim community with this announcement.

Mike
Future CP Locomotive Engineer

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>Yes, Bob, I wish I were younger and could get my teeth into
>something like a TRAIN SIM, DOS or not. So I am helping
>PIE instead, suppling them with bucket loads of ideas about
>what it should do and how. ya know what Otto, I like the way you always help in the forums. You aren't always right ( not many are myself included ) but you gotta stop doin one thing.
I just about ever post you make , it's about you.
If you are only helping someone with a defrag question you find a way to get the fact into the post that you have eleventeen computers running with megagigle snazy sadist hard drives.
guess what, the question was about defrag , not your equipment.Ill be perfectly honest with you, I have NO opinion ABOUT who makes WHAT program ( aren't those caps annoying? shhhheeeeeeeeeez)Not everyone agrees with your "bucketloads of ideas". Some don't think they are "ideas" at all, but a way for you to put yourself forward yet again.
Caveate: this is only my OPINION, not discussed with anyone else, so those who feel warmth coming on , aim it at me.
have a nice day"I do what my Rice Krispies tell me to do"

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Bob,Ottodad has made many, many contributions to train-simming; moreover, the enormous help he has given to many forum members is incalculable. Quite often it is only Otto that come to the rescue of someone or some problem. And as for saying he puts himself first is quite unworthy of you: if it was not for Ottodad I would not be able to do many things that he has taught me. If it were not for Ottodad animating this forum to make it more interesting I doubt that there would be as many people reading it.Otto is always pleasant, polite and positive, so please try to follow his example...please!Mike

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Ditto, ditto, ditto, guys.Amen!!!!!!!!
Ted

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Hi, OTTODADAs a highly respected member of this forum I wish you would help PI engineering by encouraging other members to buy products from them. They may have the desire to make our train sim dreams come true but that all depends on them remaining a viable company.Maybe it is lucky for us that our Raildrivers also work for the Trainz fans since those who buy Raildrivers for Trainz ultimately will be backing the project through their purchases.I have also thought that our cab designers could help out by keeping the Raildriver control lever format ( if that is the right term ) in more of their excellent offerings which I think tends to encourage use of the Raildriver when one sees the corresponding lever move on the monitor as it is moved on the Raildriver unit.Have a nice dayRaildriver owner Wild Willy the Wacko

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Hopefully, that front coupler issue will be a thing of the past? I still can't understand why Kuju missed that out!! :-hmmm

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LAST EDITED ON May-14-04 AT 12:21 PM (EDT)

>Yes, Bob, I wish I were younger and could get my teeth into
>something like a TRAIN SIM, DOS or not. So I am helping
>PIE instead, suppling them with bucket loads of ideas about
>what it should do and how.
>Calm down Otto! This will take a year or two at least...
Let them get their breath! LOL!>Remember the days when we had Graphics in DOS and for a long
>while after Windows appeared had many Games and Sims still
>using that technology, making them run blindingly fast,
>using their own Graphics Drivers ?
>Actually I do since I am probably within 10 years of your age Otto...
And what I remember most is that almost none of it worked well or was very stable unless you had the EXACT SAME CONFIGURATION as the developer(s)...
The bigger places supported 3 or 4 environments but not the smaller game houses as it was too damn expensive IIRC.....Lets not be in such a big hurry to throw away WHQL drivers and Direct/X (or maybe even Open/GL) shall we?>Graphics nowadays are trying to do too much and unless the
>hardware is up to them in every aspect then perfection and
>performance is likely to suffer.
>But the price of hardware keeps going down and capacity keeps going up... For instance a couple of months back I bought a socket 754 mobo, AMD A64-3400 chip and 2 sticks of PC400 DDR Ram (1g total) for less than I paid for my Athlon/XP-2400, Mobo and PC333 ram 2 years ago....
Add to that I paid about the same price for my GeForce FX5950 (256mb) as I did for my GeForce 4-ti4400 and you get the picture....>But that has nothing to do with the way the underlying
>program code is designed in the first place. If that is not
>efficient in the way it handles it's Graphics Code then it's
>like putting low grade petrol/gas into a high performance
>engine car's tank.
>Efficient code is not 100% necessary if you hit the software with a big enough Hardware hammer!
Hardware is cheap!!!!! Development Person Hours is anything but cheap!
>We shall see who is going to come up with the better TRAIN
>SIM, if TA still think of doing one of their own. My money
>is PIENGINEERING, they got a better start using their
>TRAINMASTER code ! TM code IIRC is not 3d, not Current Standards (DirectX 8 or better) compliant etc etc etc...My point is not to denigrate TM but to point out that everyone is starting from an approximately level playing field...As for the Gentlemen who continue to disparage TA for their lack of communications, what part of the "ambulance chasers and the Marketing Types via a NDA would not allow them to", do you not understand!!!! Geese!!!!!
Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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Chuck, I understand NDA's perfectly. What part of you sold me something, promised other items as and inducement didn't deliver the goods didn't answer e-mails asking about said goods with even a note saying we will be away for awhile get back as soon as we can? If this transaction had involved more than a small amount of money I would have considered a legal action. The whole point of this being that you can't simply promise and then run off to greener pastures without consequeses. T/A refuses to address this problem thru normal methods so I mention it in these forums when they come up as a subject. However this may be and excerise in futility as apperantly Master Lum and Company don't read forums related to there product or lack there of any better than they do ther e-mail from customer's

JEFF

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In the nearly 60 years of my life, I have learned one thing.... Don't set your expectations too high for anything before you actually see it. If that sounds skeptical, it is.... I do not know how many times I have listened to corporate officers say that something was going to happen and it never did... I will believe it when I see it...

TrainMaster has published conceptual GOALS... These goals are not cast in stone and probably will change as problem areas arise. The same holds true for Train Artisan's proposed sim... Yes, the fact that 2 companies are attempting to give the MSTS community something to migrate to is a good thing. What we have to do is to leave these groups alone and let them develop what they can. When they have made significant progress, we will hear about it. I do like to hear the statement that marketing shipping dates will be slipped if there are problems with the code. No "Get whatever you got boxed and ship it, even though we know there are problems"; AKA Microsoft. We should have some ideas in 6 or 7 months what to expect from either or both houses on new sims. I cannot jump on the "This is the Greatest" bandwagon until there is more substantial news and the list of goals is changed to a list of features included. Any developer can attest that conceptual goals often have to be compromised to attain a finished product. Bill

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These two companies may be farther along than anyone thinks, but that is not important. What I like about the situation is that both groups have people that were immersed in MSTS. Both groups have people that have shown they could produce quality in the past. Both groups have people that are familiar with what is wrong and what is right about MSTS. They have seen our "wish lists". This can only be good. It is a tremendous undertaking for both of them. I wish them great success.

Joe Morris CRR #2
Senior Engineer
Vice President, Equip. & Physics, OVS
Gen. Manager, Canton Railroad
http://www.or4c.com/Canton/

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And most importantly, they are real rail fans like the rest of us! So they already know what a good train simulator should be from the get-go ----------- BUZZ -----------

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Hello,this all sounds too much like "the King is dead - long live the King".
Before we all get overwhelmed by our dreams - lets just wait and see a little. It is early days yet. The idea is splendid - but will it all be feasable?
Don't want to dampen the fun - but let's keep at least one foot on the ground.
Nevertheless, I will be looking forward to what they will come up with. At least there's new hope!Greetings, Rob Roeterdink

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I live by one simple rule regarding game releases... it is all vaporware until I have the CD physically in my hands. I still think a strategic alliance should be seriously considered. It makes too much sense.

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> I still think a strategic alliance should be seriously considered. It makes too much sense.I think this is being worked on under NDAs. No problem assembling willing contributors who would like to supply their individual talents, but PAYWARE parties would find the initial return for their considerable investment in time and effort not much of an incentive, having to take a gamble it paying off !No, this will have to be a LABOUR of LOVE from many, me included ! Any other Volunteers in the Developers Community ? Then please submit your details to whatever team is working on a new Train Sim you want to contribute to ! O t t o

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I have taken a close look at these two sims recently, and while I love the look of their art work, I am not convinced in the TA Train Sim. On their site, they say they have no set goals for this sim and that doesn't fill me with hope. The art work is superb, but from reading the site I don't really get the impression of their sim being released.Perhaps I missed a page which sets all this straight.

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Further to this, I think that the TA people are brilliant artists and not at all business men.

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Well, I haven't read all of the messages here so I can't really comment on everything that has been said here but from my take of what TA is doing, it is more inclined to be making sims for people like Railroad Preservation Societies and the like. That is what they have proven to be good at and I think they will continue in that vein, at least for the time being. If they develop a sim for the general public I will be surprised but nothing surprises me anymore. On the other hand Trainmaster has already enlisted the help of some very excellent top payware people (I will keep it at that) so I know it is intending to come out with a train sim game and based upon MSTS. I think they are commited to that so at this juncture I am with their efforts and support their efforts to the fullest. They want a game that is compatible with MSTS, but at the same time addresses all of the things that are wrong with it. I have seen some of their efforts and they are excellent. They still have much work to do, but they are a lot further along than I had expected at this juncture which leads me to believe that they started this project much sooner than their announcements would have led us to believe. I think there are MSTS people who are behind some of these efforts and have been for some time now. I am looking forward to their efforts and hope they do come out with what would really be an MSTS3 but with the TrainMaster name. I wish them all the luck in the world. TimWestern Maryland
"Gone but never forgotten"

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There was a thread in the general forum in which TA answered the question about your concerns. They are working on a sim for the general public as well as something for museums and such. So at this point we can expect something from both TA and from PIE.Personally I am looking forward to both, maybe a little more towards TA seeing they seem to be steam fans. But I wish both parties success in their progress for a replacement for MSTS!Mykel

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I think the formula will be:
Current MSTS users splitted to 45%MSTS + 35%TMTS + 20%TA
Happened id the past with flight simulation and train simulation isn't different. Why do not change figures?
1st: MSTS is a big world by itself, how many users worldwide?
2nd: Has anyone seen TMTS or TA working?
3rd: How long (and how much work) it'll take to convert all add-ons to TMTS and/or TA format?Carlos

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You know what would be wonderful? (and don't flame me for this, I'm being serious here)If somehow, MSTS2 and maybe MSTS could be interchangable with Trainz. Which of course would mean Trainz would have to change their format to match MSTS, but still it'd be rather cool I think.

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To do that would be detrimental to innovation like is happening with MICROSOFT dominating Computing in general.What we need is competition between developers which will make them improve their products to capture a bigger slice of the market for themselves and in the process give costomers a choice ! O t t o

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