Send/Don't Send - a less than serious question

In my routine morning scan of recent posts, I've seen the usual amount of questions and frustrations that include the infamous send/don't send message. I was just wondering, has anyone ever hit "send" and gotten any indication that a message was actually sent? Andy

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

RE: Send/Don't Send - a less than serious question, Stooopid_person, Oct-05-03, 09:51 AM, (1) RE: Send/Don't Send - a less than serious question, dgauci, Oct-05-03, 10:02 AM, (2) RE: Send/Don't Send - a less than serious question, enocell, Oct-05-03, 03:01 PM, (3) RE: Send/Don't Send - a less than serious question, dgauci, Oct-05-03, 04:59 PM, (6) RE: Send/Don't Send - a less than serious question, OTTODAD, Oct-05-03, 04:37 PM, (4) RE: Send/Don't Send - a less than serious question, dgauci, Oct-05-03, 04:56 PM, (5) RE: Send/Don't Send - a less than serious question, OTTODAD, Oct-06-03, 10:03 AM, (18) RE: Send/Don't Send - a less than serious question, Hobart, Oct-05-03, 11:30 PM, (7) RE: Send/Don't Send - a less than serious question, Stooopid_person, Oct-06-03, 00:32 AM, (8) RE: Send/Don't Send - a less than serious question, derekmorton, Oct-06-03, 06:46 AM, (10) RE: Send/Don't Send - a less than serious question, Stooopid_person, Oct-06-03, 06:55 AM, (11) RE: Send/Don't Send - a less than serious question, derekmorton, Oct-06-03, 07:36 AM, (12) RE: Send/Don't Send - a less than serious question, sstyrnol, Oct-06-03, 06:33 AM, (9) RE: Send/Don't Send - a less than serious question, sniper297, Oct-06-03, 08:38 AM, (15) RE: Send/Don't Send - a less than serious question, dgauci, Oct-06-03, 10:09 AM, (19) RE: Send/Don't Send - a less than serious question, dgauci, Oct-06-03, 09:54 AM, (16) RE: Send/Don't Send - a less than serious question, Tim Frost, Oct-06-03, 08:07 AM, (13) RE: Send/Don't Send - a less than serious question, sstyrnol, Oct-06-03, 08:18 AM, (14) RE: Send/Don't Send - a less than serious question, dgauci, Oct-06-03, 10:00 AM, (17) RE: Send/Don't Send - a less than serious question, OTTODAD, Oct-06-03, 10:09 AM, (20) RE: Paranoia will annoy ya, sniper297, Oct-06-03, 01:12 PM, (21) RE: RAMDRIVE, OTTODAD, Oct-06-03, 02:07 PM, (23) RE: Paranoia will annoy ya, Stooopid_person, Oct-07-03, 00:20 AM, (26) P.S.: Microsoft Snooping, OTTODAD, Oct-06-03, 01:37 PM, (22) RE: Send/Don't Send - a less than serious question, chucksc, Oct-06-03, 07:13 PM, (25) RE: Send/Don't Send - a less than serious question, OTTODAD, Oct-07-03, 09:28 AM, (27) RE: Send/Don't Send - a less than serious question, DTA, Oct-07-03, 05:55 PM, (28) RE: Send/Don't Send - a less than serious question, enocell, Oct-06-03, 03:12 PM, (24)

Conferences | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic

>In my routine morning scan of recent posts, I've seen the
>usual amount of questions and frustrations that include the
>infamous send/don't send message. I was just wondering, has
>anyone ever hit "send" and gotten any indication that
>a message was actually sent?
>
>Andy I've hit it every time now since I've gotten a new computer. It did say it was sent, and I believe it since it ZoneAlarm says it wants to access the Internet.

--You are reading my signature now, don't waste your time reading it!--
Eh, where did my signature go?
Oh, here it is, the one you are reading right now? Can't you see it? I know I know, it is probably too bright to see it.
Anyway, I told you not waste time reading my signature! You have just wasted 10 seconds!

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

If you have an Internet connection the messages are sent. Microsoft does use these reports as feedback for application compatibility and future improvements, so in the long run these reports will benefit all of us.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

If they really do something based on these errors, they must be busy. I have sent several hundreds of these lately. If you get very close to the ground and then rotate the camera to point directly to the ground, guess what pops up...

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

>If they really do something based on these errors, they must
>be busy. I have sent several hundreds of these lately. Every report gets dumped into a database, the most commonly reported issues are the ones they dedicate resources to fix. This is why it is important to provide feedback, if you really do want to see these issues resolved.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

I wouldn't dream of ever "Sending" anything to Microsoft ! They want to keep their nose out of my machine !!! O t t o

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

>I wouldn't dream of ever "Sending" anything to Microsoft !
>
>
>They want to keep their nose out of my machine !!! With the attitude you don't ever want to report a bug, how do you expect them to repair those bugs you do find? Developers aren't mind readers.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Dennis,reading the messages posted since your reply to me confirms that I am not the only one with that attitude and reading as much about Computing in the Media as I do, this is not a Minority Opinion either !The amount of Software problems Microsoft has generated over the years is astronomical and despite knowing about them has done little to correct many or too late, usually creating more than they fixed, admitted by Microsoft themselves on a number of occasions, WIN-ME being one of them. I am still smarting after buying CFS-3 early this year, consequently binned !!! And what about all the bugs in MSTS, reported over and over again ? And before you say that is up to KUJU then NO !!!! Microsoft are the Publishers and Sellers and it is their resposibility to have them seen to. But there is not much money to be made supplying Fixes, Free Updates and Service Releases ! Remember how long it took them to finally release the SR-1 for WIN-XP ! Still not perfect from what I read.I do not trust Microsoft having access to my machine for whatever reason !! I am not the only one who thinks so ! Even GARTNER suggest to forget about letting Microsoft automatically update computers with Bug Fixes, which can only do more damage then good, looking at their past record of issuing them, the last occasion being MS.BLASTER, the original fix being a disaster almost simultaneously finding three more security holes, costing users millions to put right !!!As for taking notice of what Microsoft users report to them about Software problems, definitively not one of their Priorities, I had over 15 years of experience about starting with Microsoft Basic !!!O t t o

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Every time I pressed send my computer froze up solid. Haven't sent anything since 2001. Got the s/ds a few times from Internet Explorer too, still didn't send tho. Negative reienforcment I guess...

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON Oct-06-03 AT 00:32 AM (EDT)

>Every time I pressed send my computer froze up solid.
>Haven't sent anything since 2001. Got the s/ds a few times
>from Internet Explorer too, still didn't send tho. Negative
>reienforcment I guess... The S/DS eats up all your RAM send it, that's why in the first reply, I said after I had a new computer, then I started sending!

--You are reading my signature now, don't waste your time reading it!--
Eh, where did my signature go?
Oh, here it is, the one you are reading right now? Can't you see it? I know I know, it is probably too bright to see it.
Anyway, I told you not waste time reading my signature! You have just wasted 10 seconds!

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

>The S/DS eats up all your RAM.Would you like to quantify that statement, or recall it as a load of rubbish?Derek

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

>>The S/DS eats up all your RAM.
>
>Would you like to quantify that statement, or recall it as a
>load of rubbish? What do you mean? I heard it from sniper297 long ago, where he showed a screenshot of him sending the error report with his then new computer of 768MB RAM.

--You are reading my signature now, don't waste your time reading it!--
Eh, where did my signature go?
Oh, here it is, the one you are reading right now? Can't you see it? I know I know, it is probably too bright to see it.
Anyway, I told you not waste time reading my signature! You have just wasted 10 seconds!

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

>>>The S/DS eats up all your RAM.
>>
>>Would you like to quantify that statement, or recall it as a
>>load of rubbish?
>
>What do you mean? I heard it from sniper297 long agoMaybe you should leave it to sniper to make the comment then, you know nothing about the subject.>, where
>he showed a screenshot of him sending the error report with
>his then new computer of 768MB RAM. It would be interesting to hear snipers actual comment.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Just a little calculation:In Germany we have 80 Million residents. Say half of them are not using a computer.
Of the 40 million people say again half of them have a computer. That would make 20 million. Of these 20 million people, say 10 million run WinXP.This computer crash once a day: 10 million msgs to M$
Per annum: 3.65 billion messages.Each msg contains information about programs, processes running, memory contents, registry settings, hardware configuration and type of error.That would make 6 different sources of information to evaluate per msg. So you have basically 21,9 billion sets of information to evaluate.Now, this is only Germany. Furthermore, M$T$ runs also under Win98, but uses S/DS too. IMO, Win98 is less stable than WinXP, so say twice the amount of S/DS...Shall I continue?Unless M$ does use sophisticated statistical evaluation methods, it doesn't seem to be very effective. They would have to filter all the bugs out and try to concentrate on the really serious errors.Cheers!SebastianFeel free to IM me on: sstyrnol@hotmail.com
My email is: sebastian.styrnol@gmx.de

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I eat trolls for breakfast!
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Okay, here's my actual comment, which is based on a hell of a lot of wild assed speculation. I may not actually know anything, but I can guess like crazy!Hardcore computer gamers since the dawn of computer gaming have always known that games run better, faster, smoother when they have as many system resources as possible. Unneccessary drivers and TSRs (Terminate and Stay Resident programs) loaded into RAM will slow down games that push the limits of what the computer is capable of, and often cause lockups, crashes, etc. So when you have a game that is very power hungry, you boot the computer with just the bare minimum needed to run the game.
(The most sophisticated design or business software doesn't need anywhere near as much horsepower as games do, yet the myth that, if you're "just going to play games on it" you don't need to buy a top of the line computer, persists.)
In the Days of DOS and Dinosaurs this usually meant booting from a floppy disk, after Windows 95 CTRL ALT DELETE to bring up the task manager and end everything running in the background except explorer and systray. Even screensavers and power schemes need to be disabled, since they have a countdown clock loaded into RAM and running in the background, competing with the game for system resources.Having more RAM makes all that less critical.Send/don't-send assumes that you're already connected to the internet. When I first got trainsim, I had an AMD K6-2 450, 64mb PC-100 SDRAM, with a 56k dialup modem. Even if I had the modem software already loaded (so that an internet connection was available), send/don't-send would lock up the system every time. After putting together a new system, AMD Athlon 800 with 128mb PC-133 SDRAM, it still locked up. Upgrading to 384mb RAM it still locked up, trashing the 56k dialup and getting SBC DSL it still locked up most of the time, altho occasionally it would send after 5 minutes or so. When I bought an AMD Palomino 1.45ghz and added 768 megs of PC 2100 DDR RAM to that, I could send every time without a problem. My current system has 1024 megs of RAM, so I can connect to the internet, open a few files in wordpad, have several copies of TGAtool2 and Paint Shop Pro running, and start trainsim without shutting anything down. Even with unneccessary programs running in the background like that I don't get send/don't-send nearly as often, and if I click on send it works every time.That makes sense when you stop to think about it, with a low end system you're already pushing the limits just running the game, most errors are stack and buffer overflows, and send/don't-send is yet another program accessing memory.Does it do any good to actually send? I dunno, I suspect Nanosoft actually uses error reports only when they run out of toilet paper, and when I get send/don't-send it's always related to either the unsupported editors and tools, or an add-on created with the unsupported editors and tools. Third party software isn't supported, so when I send an error message involving one of Jon Davis' steamers on the PO&N, it most likely goes right into the trash. My current problem is ironman marathon activities on PO&N7, any AI traffic pattern in excess of 12 hours is causing random send/don't-send errors with some starting points. Another undocumented "feature" of MSTS, but since I suspect they're already aware of it, there's not much point in sending.Anyway, I'm not sensitive, and always appreciate the scientific process, so somebody go ahead and prove me wrong. Run trainsim on a 128mb RAM or less system, see if you can send the error report without having it crash or lock up. Then do the same with a system that has a gig of RAM.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

>Run trainsim on a 128mb RAM or less system, see if you can
>send the error report without having it crash or lock up.
>Then do the same with a system that has a gig of RAM. In this statement you neglected to say which operating system. A Windows XP system with only 128mb will behave very differently than a Win98 system with the same amount of RAM because of the differences in the OS system requirements.While Windows 98 can be used with as little as 64mb, (128mb is better), Windows XP requires at least 256mb to run applications smoothly. These numbers would be in addition to the requirements that MSTS adds itself.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

>Unless M$ does use sophisticated statistical evaluation
>methods, it doesn't seem to be very effective. They would
>have to filter all the bugs out and try to concentrate on
>the really serious errors. I can tell you've never used a database before or understand how they work. The situation you've described would be child's play to manage and report the most common issues. The larger the sample of data the more accurate the analysis.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

I send it every time. Even though I've reported the same stupid error hundreds of times now. I figure if they get enough of these reports, they might do something about it eventually. If not in a patch for this version, in the next. Although it's unlikely they'll do anything else for this version.Tim Frost
NVTA Subway routes for BVE:

The Union Atlantic Railroad: Your stuff's important!

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON Oct-06-03 AT 08:21 AM (EDT)

I never send it, because I do not want M$ to have a look on my PC. Hell knows, what's written in those reports and I do not want anybody to take a record of my actions.I figure, that I will be perfectly able to fix my computer problems myself. Did you know, that WinXP sends out 64k of data everytime you go online? Where do you think this data is going to...???Big Brother is watching you!!!Edit for typo...Cheers!SebastianFeel free to IM me on: sstyrnol@hotmail.com
My email is: sebastian.styrnol@gmx.de

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I eat trolls for breakfast!
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

The black helicopter crowd has finally arrived in this thread. So much for a rational discussion.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

You can be sarcastic as much as you like, Dennis, but one of these days events will make you swallow your words !!! O t t o

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

There's a button somewhere that shows the info contained in the report, mostly a hex dump of the registers. Basically that tells them what was loaded into RAM at the time of the problem. I don't have any idea what I would have on my computer that Billy Boy Billionaire would be even remotely interested in, but he's welcome to it, whatever deep dark secrets I have that need to be concealed from the CIA are not kept on a computer. So if send/don't-send is some kind of spyware, I really don't give a *&^%$#! as long as it don't slow my system down.Interesting sidenote, I don't know how much RAM S/DS uses, but when trainsim first loads, it's normally about 2 megs.Just this morning I got one of those oddballs where it started to load and then I got a black screen, so after staring at it for a minute I hit ALT TAB and then CTRL ALT DELETE, and train.exe was stopped with 41 megs used. That's a hell of a lot of RAM usage for an error, probably one of them loops where it loads a billion copies of the same files in. No send/don't-send tho, apparently it didn't think that was an error. After starting it again, the error didn't repeat, and the task manager again showed 2 megs at the menu screen. After selecting a route and activity, I ALT TABbed out again to see what it was:This is where Ottodad's experiments with RAM drives would come in handy, the entire program plus the route and trainsets loaded, 80 megabytes? Approximately 170 megs total in RAM out of 1024, why don't it load the whole route so you don't get the stuttering as you cross tile boundaries?

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

RAMDRIVE ? Those were my sentiments too, Jim.Loading a single Route into the RAMDRIVE and running it from there simply replaced the hard disk the data sat on with the faster RAM drive / disk. Still had to fetch data piecemeal, albeit from a faster media. Slightly less jerking and not much improvements on Frame Rates, which are down to the Graphics Card and it's driver.Many of the files are compressed and if all were loaded into RAM on starting the session, ready for use by the MSTS Graphics Engine, would they have to be in RAM un-compressed, taking up far more Memory then is available ? Seem to remember reading somewhere that they can be used by the MSTS Graphics Engine in compressed format ?O t t o

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

>Approximately 170 megs total
>in RAM out of 1024, why don't it load the whole route so you
>don't get the stuttering as you cross tile boundaries? But what about those people who have only got 256MB RAM?

--You are reading my signature now, don't waste your time reading it!--
Eh, where did my signature go?
Oh, here it is, the one you are reading right now? Can't you see it? I know I know, it is probably too bright to see it.
Anyway, I told you not waste time reading my signature! You have just wasted 10 seconds!

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Need evidence:http://www.pcsympathy.com/article54.htmland there is also the MS MEDIA PLAYER who has a few tricks up it's sleeve, to mention but one of their Free Utilities. Do a GOOGLE on "Microsoft snooping". I would also not use their "Hotmail" and "Passport" not even if they were the only ones available. You don't for one moment think that they are not closely monitored by Microsoft, for whatever reason ligit or not ?Anybody who can access your machine while it is Online can snoop around to their hearts contents unless you activate certain Privacy Settings in IEXPLORE-6. Cookies and other Spyware being the most commonly used, programmed to leave no trace of their activities on your machine after they have reported back to their originators. One of the reasons their use is about to be made illegal by the European Union.I know of people who are bit/byte monitoring data transfers during Online Sessions to find out who does what ! Will be interesting when they report their findings eventually, unless they give in to "Persuasion" from major organisations they have identified. I am trying hard to think of anything original Microsoft has ever created, starting with the concept of the GUI and MS-DOS. We all know how they have achieved their Monopoly, forcing competition out of existence by means more foul than fair ! Does anybody think they will ever change ? Not even USA Courts have been able to make them mend their ways !Anybody defending that organisation is doing Computing in general no favours at all !!!O t t o

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

>You can be sarcastic as much as you like, Dennis, but one of
>these days events will make you swallow your words !!!
>
>O t t o Or you yours Otto....But coming from the part of the world you are from it is understandable why you would have an irrational fear of Big Brother watching you.... I think if I was from there I would too! We in the US don't have institutional knowledge of and a history of massive government spy rings surreptitiously surveiling the majority of our citizens and gangs of jack-booted thugs kicking our doors in the middle of the night, Yet! Unless, of course, you are an adherent of Lyndon LaRouche? However, given the state of play between the US Government(in the personal of the Justice Department Anti-Trust division) and Microsoft it doesn't appear we have anything to worry about for a while.... A more likely scenario is that Microsoft is developing a Common Error Profile so that they can prioritize the allocation of resources where they will do the most good. Ever notice that sometimes S/DS doesn't transfer much data? That's because the Descriptive Hash Signature of the problem already exists in their database and all MS is doing is incrementing the occurrence counter(s).Sheesh!Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON Oct-07-03 AT 10:01 AM (EDT)

Funny coincidence, Chuck, had the message below in my E-Mail today. I think you must admit that computers are being interrogated without you knowing about it while being Online, using all sorts of means. Same as E-Mail and Air Waves are constantly being scanned by Intelligence Agencies all over the world.There is too much evidence about proving it, the best known being SPYWARE, followed closely by Session Cookies and Hackers accessing your machine, proven daily by my ZONE ALARM's Log ! Your employer's Network Administrators also have the ability to remotely monitor what you do on their machine you use. One Corporation recently having been fined a fortune for having Piracy Software on their machines, put there by employees, not to mention other objectionable items.One way to destroy any un-chained data segments not used by current files is to bit-write garbage into disk space listed as being "available" in the FAT Table ? Try reading that if you can ! NORTON's Disk Clean did it in DOS days.This E-Mail message, referred to by one as being a "Scam", is aiming more at individuals who have something illegal on their computers they think they can hide, such as downloading Child Porn, constantly in the news here in the U.K. ! Software Piracy also being of interest to the major vendors and their associated Anti-Piracy contractors. What it says about "Hidden Data" being stored needs verifying and proving, which if true will no doubt come to light sooner or later. Would not surprise me this being a fact. It it can be done then some unscrupulous organisation or hacker will make use of it. Information being gathered from your machine for various purposes is a fact admitted to by many Web Sites, most of it unbeknown to you and frequently sold on for marketing purposes and used by Spammers.Makes you think, doesn't it ? How goes the saying "Where there is smoke, there is a Fire !" Was is not schools in the USA which were in the news not so long ago, demands being made to monitor their computers Online activities regarding illegal downloads of Music ? You can guess what else is being downloaded by some of the students ! Anyway, that's enough of that now. Let's get on with some TRAIN SIMMING !!! O t t o

You're in Serious Trouble - It's a Proven Fact!Did you know... that your computer is spying on you? Did you know for example that every click you make on Windows 98 Start Menu is logged and stored permanently on a hidden encrypted database within your own computer? (My comment: how did they know my Internet machine is a WIN-98 and none other which it very easily could have been ! Pot Luck ?)Deleting "internet cache and history", will not protect you... your PC is keeping frightening records of both your online and off-line activity. Any of the Web Pages, Pictures, Movies, Videos, Sounds, E-mail and Everything Else you or anyone else have ever viewed could easily be recovered - even many years later! 73.5% of all companies admit they record and review their employees' communications and activities on the job.How would you feel if somebody snooped this information out of your computer and made it public? Do your children or their friends use your computers? What have they downloaded and tried to delete? Act now! And stop these files coming "back from the dead" to haunt you!You deserve...a far more rewarding and safer Internet experience! Start to enjoy the benefits of a truly clean and faster "Like New" PC! Download today with no risk, guaranteed.Evidence Eliminator... can Speed-Up your PC/Internet Browser, reclaim Hard Disk space and Professionally Clean your PC in one easy mouse click!CLICK HERE FOR EVIDENCE ELIMINATOR!

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Paranoia strikes!Just how many billions of people are on the internet. Just how many multi billions of messages, posts, emails, data transfers, downloads, uploads, chats, online gaming data, google enquiries etc., are made everyday?If people want to look at where I go, what I post, what I download, they are welcome to! I just hope they don't die of boredom. How do you think hackers, spyware and virus makers get away with it?Because they are not being monitored! There are loads of warez sites that give away free hacking tools. Does anyone close them down? Not to my knowledge.Send/don't send is not even going to be looked at, if it is not by an original route. Why should they?It is relatively easy to become a non person, both in the UK and the US, and if you don't need the nanny state, it is a good way to go!David

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Luckily we have (mostly) good law in Finland which prevents everyone but the Police to come people's homes to do a house search...
So they (M$) can't do anything unless there's some serious things going on (ie. somebody sells *lots of* pirated software)Our law also voids many things in Microsoft's license agrteements(!).

Alert | IP

[ Home | MSTS Forum | MSTS FAQ | File Library ] Copyright © 2002 by Nels Anderson. All Rights Reserved.