Chicago Stations Curves

Some have noted their trains getting "stuck" on some of the tight curves in parts of the layout. I substituted Facing Point's Surfliner Trainset for the default one and have NO trouble with any of the curved track. In fact, I have to throttle back to keep the speed down!What a great piece of work, this addition to MSTS, to depict most of the Great Trainsheds of the Past/Present. All we need now is for someone to "extend" the route out in all directions 50 or more miles!!

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RE: Chicago Stations Curves, ChiFan, Sep-21-03, 11:17 AM, (1) RE: Chicago Stations Curves, kmanc21, Sep-21-03, 12:15 PM, (2) RE: Chicago Stations Curves, Hawk, Sep-21-03, 07:51 PM, (3) RE: Chicago Stations Curves, rd4man, Sep-21-03, 08:20 PM, (4) RE: Chicago Stations Curves, ChiFan, Sep-21-03, 09:32 PM, (5) RE: Chicago Stations Curves, rd4man, Sep-21-03, 10:03 PM, (6) RE: Chicago Stations Curves, baldwin, Sep-22-03, 05:00 PM, (7) RE: Chicago Stations Curves, ChiFan, Sep-22-03, 07:10 PM, (8) RE: Chicago Stations Curves, rd4man, Sep-23-03, 03:15 PM, (12) RE: Chicago Stations Curves, Baldwinbob, Sep-22-03, 07:22 PM, (9) RE: Chicago Stations Curves, xlspecial261, Sep-22-03, 10:42 PM, (10) RE: Chicago Stations Curves, baldwin, Sep-23-03, 03:35 PM, (13) RE: Chicago Stations Curves, chimneyswift, Sep-23-03, 07:04 AM, (11) RE: Chicago Stations Curves, heffed, Sep-25-03, 00:56 AM, (14) RE: Chicago Stations Curves, ChiFan, Sep-25-03, 05:57 PM, (15) RE: Chicago Stations Curves, sniper297, Sep-25-03, 11:48 PM, (16) RE: Chicago Stations Curves, heffed, Sep-25-03, 11:53 PM, (17)

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Good idea about the substitution, it looks like that will address problems with the Superliner. After getting feedback on the tight curves, I'd like to jump in here on your post. Sorry about the wordiness, but it's my way to address the issue.I am concerned about performance in tight curves, especially with other more likely consists. I did some more testing using the downloaded version. Here is what I found out so far, but would like more input from those with problems.I set up what I think is a tough scenario for testing a variety of consists. I placed a consist half way through the CB&Q curve near the twin bridges where it heads west (see Map if necessary). The consist has 16 of the longest passenger cars for the engines used. What makes it tough is that it starts from a dead stop then enters the loop while the rear is still in the preceding curve. The objective was to see how they get through the starting curve, the loop, back through the starting curve, and on towards Union Station. Here are the results:-3DTrains ATSF Warbonnets (2 as A-A) and 16 Pleasure Dome cars at 26.15m: Throttle at 100%, didn't make it. Needed more power.-3DTrains ATSF Warbonnets (4 as A-A-A-A) and 16 Pleasure Dome cars at 26.15m: Throttle at 100%, engine emerged loop at 15mph.-3DTrains ATSF Warbonnets (4 as A-B-B-A) and 16 Pleasure Dome cars at 26.15m: Throttle at 100%, engine emerged loop at 15mph.-TrainArtisans NYC Twentieth Century Limited (3 as A-B-A) and 16 cars at 22.15m: Throttle at 50%, engine emerged from loop at 30mph.-PRR Tuscan from the library (4 as A-A-A-A) and 16 cars at 26.15m: Throttle at 50%, engine emerged from loop at 12mph.-IC City of New Orleans from the library (2 as A-A) and 16 cars at 21.75m: Throttle at 50%, engine emerged from loop at 20mph.I don't think this scenario is typical, but I think these consists represent what may be typical or reasonable for the ChiSta1 setting and timeframe. The tight curves may mean slow speeds, but with adjustments in throttle, engine units, and car number/length, the problem can be overcome to a degree.Despite what I'm seeing, people are reporting problems, so something is wrong. I can't think of a reason why my consists work and others don't, unless there is a setting somewhere that is different in my system. Of course, if some aren't getting through because throttle changes aren't taking taking effect, then the "Simpler Controls" option in Options is not set correctly, as happened to me several times after MSTS re-installs. Or maybe to other users, typical and reasonable consists means more cars than 16. Maybe I misjudged that. Or maybe I misjudged what is acceptable, and the speeds reported above are still too slow for users.The route isn't designed for higher speeds because the real trains did travel very slowly around the stations. Within the confining nature of the setting, to me, tight curves are okay and do work, at least on my system. But if typical and reasonable consists aren't getting through those tight curves, then I need to further pursue the situation of wider curves.So, I need more information to get to the bottom of this. Here are some questions for those with problems:Is the default consist in the default activites the one not getting through?What is the make up of the user consists that aren't getting through, and at what speed when entering loops if known?Are the speeds of 12 to 30mph out of the curves reported above still too slow in your opinion? Is it possible for the same consist on the same route, in the same situation but on different systems operate differently?I'll appreciate all input on this and try to address it the best way I can.Chuck Rickert

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Chuck,I ran the introductory train ride and the included activity. The only thing I did to the activity was turn on the headlight and it ran through the whole route with no problems. I did come out of some of the curves at 10MPH, but never stalled.
I think that you have tried to create a prototypical route and have succeeded. You can bet in real life on some of those loops the engineer would be working hard to keep from stalling his train, and IMHO that is the way this route should be.
I don't have the talent or time to engage in route building or activity creation, but I can tell you one thing about human nature and this is you can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time.
If I were to try my hand at route building I would create the route based on what I like and let others either enjoy it or not run it, that should be their choice and not my concern.
You have built a fine route IMHO and I can tell you I will enjoy it thouroughly.Ken

How did I survive before MSTS

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Hey folks-I just dropped in-"to see what condition my condition was in."-Uh! Never mind. Anyway, I just thought I'd throw a few comments in here about Chicago Stations, and the curves.
My understanding is: This route was built to replicate an era in Chicago railroading history. That era being the 50's and 60's. The F units being the predominate power, along with shorter coaches.
I believe it was Chucks hope that the route would provide an accurate (as possible) rendition of that era, for those interested.
In that-he did a remarkable job.
Now-I know, some of us (me included) like to run our "preferred" power and stock (I'm more inclined to modern diesel myself), and the curves can be a problem. Actually, the loops are not really a part of the trackage in Chicago, (like I really had to say that). They were put in so users could run from one end of town to the other.
Yep! They could use a little straightening, but ya' gotta' give the man credit. He did that with dynamic track (with a little help from that Vone guy), and-he made a bunch of loops work. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
I think Chuck deserves a round of applause. The room bursts into a round of uproarious clapping, hootin' and hollerin'. OK Chuck, you can stop clapping now!Now-Over in another thread, a poster stated that he ran the "JoyRide" activity and stalled out, I think he said near Union Station-I don't remember.
This brings a question to mind. Does a system's resources affect the power and braking of the engines.
I know lower end systems aren't equipped to handle the detail in some (or most) routes.
Would the performance of an engine be affected by a lower end system?
It's interesting to read through this stuff, and possibly see some variables that haven't been considered before, if this is even a variable. I dunno', personally-I don't have a problem with the curves, but then I run era related stock. I'm just puzzled by the fact that the supplied activity acts different on different systems.Welp! That's my 2 bits. Hawk "First thing I remember knowin', was that lonesome whistle blowin'-And a yungun's dream of growing up to ride-
On a freight train leavin' town, not knowin' where I'm bound.
No-one could steer me right-But Mama tried."

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Chuck;FIRST...let me say I was in NO way trying to be being critical of your fantastic effort in creating Chicago Stations. I was merely responding to those few who were seeming to have problems negotiating some of the 'tight' curves.As to your questions:The default consist got through fine for me.I tried a couple of F40s and 16 or 18 Amfleet cars and was unable to get through. I have NOT tried any other consists other than the Surfliner; which, BTW, I had 2 F59s and 4 Surfliners. I think the biggest limitation is within MSTS perhaps. In the "real" world the Engineer should be able to maintain a fairly steady speed though the curves without having to use full throttle on just about any passenger train consist of the period. You were using 'default' track and perhaps it's just a tad sharper than the real thing. I've been through the sharp curve West of Union Station on the BNSF a number of times without any noticable trouble from the 'head end' of the train. The speeds you mention (12 - 30) are realistic enough IMHO, having been over a lot of the trackage for real. I think the limit through the Union Ave curve is 35MPH.I would not think different systems would affect the same consist.I can't begin to imagine the trouble and effort you went through to create this add-on for us. Perhaps when you feel like it, you will expand it someday using the newer track available to make it even more prototypical...if that's even possible with this sim. Even though you "can't go anywhere" on this route, I can't tell you how interesting it is for me to run your "mainline" around in and out of those Stations! Having been there for real makes it even more enjoyable. And.....you don't need the Parmele Transfer to go from Station to Station...you can go by train!!Fine job!!Road ForemanP.S. Only those of my vintage (over 60) will remember the Parmele
Transfer perhaps!

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Road ForemanI looked upon your post not as a criticism at all, but rather an opportunity and a convenient place to address this issue. Otherwise it might get spread around among different threads and become too hard to follow. Your input, along with Hawk's (and hopefully others), does help to describe what is really going on.I'd like to ask as if I am too young to know - What the heck is this Parmele Transfer thing? But, yes I do know and do remember. What exciting sights-to-see and sounds-to-hear in the stations back then.Chuck Rickert

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Chuck,I guess that might have read as though I was directing the criticism remark back at you. I was NOT. I was just trying to convince others that I was not being critical.As a followup to my "tests"; I ran the C&O F-Units (A B) and eight C&O cars (can't remember the trainset name or download info now...it was a while back) and they ran alright also. I guess it's just the 'longer' cars that folks are having the trouble with. I recall having some problems on other routes with the Amfleet cars on tight curves also. While I haven't tried other "period" equipment, it would appear that if the C&O stuff ran okay, others should also.Welcome to the age of remembering good ol' Parmele!! I'll have to look up the spelling though; that doesn't look right.Let me know when you want to do the "Race Track" out to Aurora and back for this sim. (big smile) I've got some stuff that you might be able to use. And.....I'd pay BIG BUCKS for a quality add-on of that Route! 'Course, it'd have to have the BN E-Units!Road Foreman

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Having just finished the Joyride using the CNW trainset, all of it, I can say the route is fine. It is just the newer longer stock that has difficulty with those reverse curves and tight loops. It is the combination of car length and position of the trucks that causes the problems. If the trucks are at or near the ends of the car, no problems, but if the trucks are set further in to the center then the overhang comes into play and causes the physics to have fits.mervyn@madasafish.com

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Thanks for more input about what's happening on those curves. Road Foreman, I too would love to see an extension of the CB&Q (BN) racetrack out to Aurora. That coupled in some way with other routes of railroads that called on Chicago that already are available in the library such as the IC, ATSF, GM&O, CGW, and the Chicago Elevated Railway would be fantastic. In case you didn't know, and for anybody who would want to tackle the CB&Q, there is a video by Railroad Video Productions titled "The Burlington Northern Aurora Line" which is a head-end cab ride from Union Station to Aurora in a BN E9 commuter. I think they were sometimes referred to as a "Scoot". BTW, we were close on the spelling, it was "Parmelee".Chuck Rickert

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Hey! Thanx for the spelling lesson, Chuck! That looks MUCH better.Another video on the Race Track is one by Pentrex..."Burlington Northern E-Units, Along The Race Track" It's got some cab shots also. I've run the "E" and to watch those guys notch all the way out to Run 8 right out of the gate is something else! 'Course they've got the sand on some too!

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>>> It is just the newer longer stock that has difficulty with those reverse curves and tight loops.<<<Have to agree with you on that. Taking the Joyride those long cars were just a jerking back and forth. Can I say that?So...I tried 5 F9s and 43 LTV empties, short cars by the way, they just glided around the loops like butter. Cruising along in 1st notch stayed about 25 mph with no slowing down as before.In the picture below you can see the back of the train in front of me, was I surprised. How in the world did you set up signals with all that trackage?Very nice route,Bob

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This sounds like a bounding box issue. I seem to recall it being mentioned around here before that some cars bind on tight curves because their bounding boxes hit the next car's.Has anyone tried shortening the BB's on some of these binding consists?I don't have the route myself, so I can't try it.btw-Some binding is normal in reality. Tight curves do drag a train down somewhat, but the consists mentioned should certainly be able to go around the curves without much problem.Todd

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ToddNot a BB issue, you can shorten that so it does not come into play at the ends of the cars. The problem with the long cars is the length related to the truck pivot points. Because the trucks on these are set much further in than the stock from earlier times, the ends swing out further, and on tight curves the physics causes them to lock against each other. I think you could probably get round with a 3-4 foot coupler length, but that looks plain silly on straight track, just like a train set.Mervynmervyn@madasafish.com

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Chuck, For what it's worth, I had the same experience as Bob with the default consist in the Joyride activity. Initially, the consist entered the reversal loop just fine, but slowed at the bottom of the loop for AI traffic. At that point , it simply began to rock back and forth for about a minute; after that it was completely stuck.However, I've run both TA and Bill Hemp's E and F units through the loops with no problem. BTW, many thanks for a marvelous, and very enjoyable route.Alan

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>Is the default consist in the default activites the one not
>getting through? I get stuck on the first sharp turn while running the joyride activity. (default consist of course)This is when leaving the throttle setting as you advised when first running the activity.If I give more throttle, I can power through.-Jeff

Union Pacific is my drug.

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In response to all the feedback about ChiSta1, I will soon resolve the tight curve issue so that users can have a much wider choice of consists that will not stall. Most consists that fit the era and setting did get around okay, so I thought the 80m curves would be okay. But they are not if many or most users want to be able to run whatever suits them but can't get through the route. Nothing wrong with that, so changes are underway.Still unanswered is the issue of why the same consist in the same activity gets stuck on one system but not another. Don't need an answer, but still would like to know, if anybody has any idea why.Thank you to all who responded with feedback. With it, I hope I can make ChiSta1 more enjoyable to more.Chuck Rickert

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I think it has more to do with user technique than with system specs. Just like climbing a steep grade, momentum plays a big part. The additional drag from tight curves is what causes long wheelbase cars to get hung up, and if you hit the curve at a higher speed sometimes it's just enough to get thru - if a coupler don't break. Additional power also helps, but with the sanders on I can get the C&NW commuter thru even the tightest curves on the PO&N with only one engine.Port Ogden & Northern is first and foremost a peddler freight route, never really intended for passenger trains, but since that's what many people like to run I've been broadening the radius of most of my too-tight curves since version one. I found an odd one recently;That's a 70 meter radius dynamic curve on the AI route. Been there since PO&N5, never caused any problems. Then I did the Invisocar update (Invisocar is 0.1 meters long and has rigid couplers), and missed it in the testing - the combination of the default SD40, Invisocar, and the default US2chemicar derailed on that 70 meter curve. The patch replaces the US2chemicar in the 3 affected consists with US2freightcar3, which is a longer car, but doesn't derail! The SD40/US2chemicar combination always went thru that curve with no problems, and after the addition of Invisocar to the consist the SD40 goes thru that curve with any other car behind Invisocar, but not that US2chemicar. So I decided to broaden the radius to 110 meters for V7, and reworked the track.What was really strange was no "broken path" errors, apparently you have to add, delete, or move a switch to get that, something to do with the nodes.Just a suggestion, IMAO Xtracks is over used, some people upload Xtracks routes with nothing more spectacular than 250 meter radius single track sections or 20 meter straights when they could have used two 10 meter straights or dynamic track instead. But in any Chicago route, the complicated trackwork and double slip switches would definitely benefit from using Xtracks. If I ever get back to the C&NW Galena line, that will be an Xtracks route right from the start.

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>Thank you to all who responded with feedback. With it, I
>hope I can make ChiSta1 more enjoyable to more. Hehe... Impossible! I hope you don't think for a minute that a consist not making it through a few turns has made your route less enjoyable for anybody.I'm sure most people are like me. If something doesn't run on a route, you just run something else.Even if you did nothing to fix the loops, I would still find the route extremely enjoyable! (not to mention I'm in awe of the track work)Thanks!-Jeff

Union Pacific is my drug.

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