Berkshire Operational Guidelines

Does anyone have detailed suggestions or guidelines for operating the Berkshire? I've kinda learned to drive the Flying Scotsman but I'm far more comfortable with say a GG-1 or a D9-40CW. I've just recently gotten some Nickel Plate freight cars, the coal hoppers and a pair of boxcars. Naturally, I'm itching to use the things behind my newly-shopped Berkshires, so I'd appreciate it if people could explain the way to operate one to me. Of key interest is how the brakes work (all of 'em!), how the throttle works in conjunction with the reverser, and so forth.I'm using the automatic fireman or whatever, so I'll also need to know what's normal as a result of making that choice. Right now, I'm able to get NKP 763 rolling and up to the mid-70s in speed, but I don't know if I'm doing it "right" or efficiently, other than to look at the smoke, which usually stays black. R.H. Smith would not be impressed, but...I'd also like information, if available, about the kinds of consists to build on routes like Sandpatch, the FBL, the NEC, and the CSX/NS releases of late. I've got Al Krug's calculator, but darned if I can figure it out. Even the simplest operating rule appreciated, y'all.

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Norfolk & Western’s Radford Division, Pulaski District: Who needs the Marias Pass?

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RE: Berkshire Operational Guidelines, bigbassloyd, Sep-04-03, 01:10 AM, (1) RE: Berkshire Operational Guidelines, NW_611, Sep-04-03, 12:00 PM, (2) RE: Berkshire Operational Guidelines, bigbassloyd, Sep-05-03, 01:49 AM, (4) RE: Berkshire Operational Guidelines, TrainTrak5000, Sep-04-03, 03:14 PM, (3) RE: Berkshire Operational Guidelines, drjoe, Sep-07-03, 08:26 PM, (19) RE: Berkshire Operational Guidelines, Nibble, Sep-05-03, 05:36 AM, (5) RE: Berkshire Operational Guidelines, Secundus, Sep-05-03, 09:00 AM, (6) RE: Berkshire Operational Guidelines, Nibble, Sep-05-03, 04:44 PM, (9) RE: Berkshire Operational Guidelines, NW_611, Sep-05-03, 09:31 AM, (7) RE: Berkshire Operational Guidelines, Newton Kid, Sep-05-03, 10:39 AM, (8) RE: Berkshire Operational Guidelines, Nibble, Sep-05-03, 04:47 PM, (10) RE: Berkshire Operational Guidelines, DTA, Sep-05-03, 06:54 PM, (11) RE: Berkshire Operational Guidelines, NW_611, Sep-05-03, 06:59 PM, (12) RE: Berkshire Operational Guidelines, Nibble, Sep-05-03, 07:40 PM, (13) RE: Berkshire Operational Guidelines, Nibble, Sep-05-03, 07:45 PM, (14) RE: Berkshire Operational Guidelines, bigbassloyd, Sep-06-03, 01:02 AM, (15) RE: Berkshire Operational Guidelines, johninchicago, Sep-07-03, 04:29 PM, (16) RE: Berkshire Operational Guidelines, Nibble, Sep-07-03, 04:36 PM, (17) RE: Berkshire Operational Guidelines, NW_611, Sep-07-03, 09:36 PM, (20) RE: Berkshire Operational Guidelines, chucksc, Sep-07-03, 06:13 PM, (18) RE: Berkshire Operational Guidelines, NW_611, Sep-07-03, 09:43 PM, (21) RE: Berkshire Operational Guidelines, HAC, Sep-08-03, 10:42 AM, (22) RE: Berkshire Operational Guidelines, chucksc, Sep-08-03, 03:34 PM, (23)

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The Regulator, and Johnson Bar ( MSTS uses the British term "reverser") are essentially.. your gas pedal (regulator) and transmission (Johnson Bar) The regulator controls the amount of steam going to your cylinders.. the Johnson Bar controls the timing of the valvesMe personally.. I run with the regulator wide open.. and control speed with the Johnson Bar.. For starting , Johnson bar is clicked wide open.. and I notch back as the train gains speed..here's a fantastic page I stumbled across, that gives excellent descriptions of the pocess of steam engines..http://www.the-nerds.org/Steam-101.html
That NALW Berkshire is a fine locomotive.. Stirs up my childhood memories of NKP 765 thundering by at 60 mph with the New River Train.. From my dealing with the MSTS version, the Berk is a bit slow off the line with a heavy load.. but runs like hell above 40 mph up...I see you're an N&W fan.. excellent road.. I recently saw Y6A 2156 at St. Louis.. beautiful...Loyd L.

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OK, thanks a lot for the advice and the link. I think I've finally got a grasp of the basics of getting one moving by itself on the Full Bucket Line, requiring a regulator setting around the low fifties with the Johnson bar full forward in the mid-seventies. I've also gotten the concept that cruising (once again, by itself) at about 70-80MPH on flat FBL track can be done with a Johnson bar setting towards the lower sixties or upper fifties and a regulator set in the twenties. How I slow the thing the right way remains to be figured out, since I've never figured out how the brakes on the Berkshires are rigged. Also remaining to be figured out is how to run somewhere inbetween 'start/stop' and 'full speed', and how to do all of the above with railroad-like efficiency while dealing with the AI fireman. A big problem with that is while I'm used to watching the F5 HUD for details, I've not necessarily got the knowledge yet to put those numbers in the proper context.Thanks for your help! Some day I hope to see 2156; if all goes well, that day will be when it's returned home to Roanoke. As a whimsical quip I recently heard goes, there aren't three main tracks under the Claytor Pavilion for nothing.

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brake wise, you've got the Locomotive brake, which is just that.. only affects the locomotive, and the train brakes, which applies the brakes on your consist.. the Locomotive brake can be off (released) or applied anywhere from 1% to 100%. The Locomotive brake will not stop a full consist.. it can help maintain speed on very gentle downslopes.. the Train brake has several settings.. Released (variable from 100% to 1%), Lap, Applied (1% to 100%) and Emergency (Dumps the air)the Lap setting holds whichever motion you just completed with the Train Brake...example: You're flying downhill, and you dump the air.. if you bring the lever back to 'LAP', you'll still maintain the Emergency Brake setting. likewise, if you just moved the lever to 100% release the train brakes, and move the lever back to lap, the brakes stay 100% released.If you've just released the brakes, and begin to move your train, its always best to return the lever to 'LAP' so its that much quicker to get on the brakes if need be..When descending steep grades loaded, you'll need to engage the locomotive brake 100%, and use the train brakes to control the speed. While I'm not sure how accurate, or correct this method is, I've found that if you're in a hurry to stop, throw both the locomotive and train brakes into 100%, and back your Johnson Bar to -10 or -15 and crank your regulator up to 10-15.. While I'm certainly no expert on running a steam locomotive, I've had the most luck with the Johnson Bar set around 51 for most instances with the BerkshireI just downloaded the Full Bucket Line, and did a short jaunt with NKP 765 and 35 unloaded N&W 100 ton hoppers. I got her up to 75 mph, and held her there. Even had time to squeeze off a few shots too..Good luck with the Berkshire! My contact info is in my profile if you have anymore questions, or would just like to chat Loyd L.

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Slightly off topic...there's a video for sale on the NKP 765 website (765.org) made by engineer Rich Melvin titled "Runnin' that New River Train." In it, you ride every mile up the famous New River Gorge in West Virginia in the cab of the 765, and Rich narrates what he's doing every step of the way. It gives you a good idea of what you need to do in real life (and perhaps MSTS too) to get a 2500 ton train up to 40 mph and above with a steam locomotive.-- Mike Karlik --
-- "Power for you" --

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This video was shown on RFD TV, and it is great. Added some to my understanding of steam control, but I can never just move the reverser ( Johnson Bar ) the way he was. BTW, some of his work with the Bar was very physical; he really cranked on it at times. It was interesting to watch as he played with the controls to handle wheel slipping. Truly a great train video.

Joe Morris
CRR #33
Vice President and
General Manager
Canton vRailroad

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-03 AT 05:38 AM (EDT)

Just to sort out a little matter.
When driving a steam locomotive the regulator allows steam to pass from the boiler to the steam chest (the space in which the valves are placed.) The reverser determines how steam is best used, by allowing the driver to adjust the rate of expansion (which is one of the many qualities of steam.)
So for example.
When first moving the engine, full reverser must be used (allowing full boiler pressure to be applied to the piston for 75% of the piston travel.)
As the engine increases speed the reverser be “brought back” to a lesser % and allow the valves to “cut off” the steam to the piston earlier and letting the steam expand in the cylinder but still push the piston.
Compound engines use some of the same theories.
If the load is heavy or grade is steep, more (a greater %) reverser is required, as the expanding steam does not have the power as steam at full boiler pressure.A good driver is judged by his use of the reverser, too much and the engine will us excessive amounts of steam (and therefore coal and water,) to little and line speed will not be maintained.All of this KUJU seemed to have somehow grasped. If, in MSTS too much reverser is used boiler pressure is affected so some degree of judgement is required on long drags.I have to say that having driven many different steam locomotives MSTS give the player a good representation. If anybody is interested I will try to write the same sort of essay on brakes.

Andrew Gadd.
Steam Footplate Examiner.
Great Western Society.
Didcot Railway Centre.
U.K.

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Thanks for these remarks on regulator/reverser. Can you comment on the idea of running always with regulator wide open and controlling speed strictly with the reverser?And, I for one would be glad to read anything you might have to say about brakes.P.Lee Thompson

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P.Lee Thompson
Thank you for your interest.I must first dig out my download of the Berkshire, have a play, and then write up about steam locomotive brakes or at least the two different kinds used by MSTS.To answer your question of how much regulator/reverser to use, the answer is that as long as you are not using too much steam, water and coal I don’t suppose MSTS will care less. However, on the real thing I personally use as much regulator as is needed to get moving, reduce the “cut off” a little than more regulator and then more “cut off” and so on, until I get the desired result! This may sound very hit and miss, but remember, every locomotive and every load is different and most of all nothing can replace the feel of the beast through your boots and many years of experience.
If (and I don’t know) you have ever travelled behind a steam locomotive and experienced constant buffeting (a rocking backwards and forewords) this is most probably caused by the incorrect use of the regulator/reverser. Something that we will never get from MSTS.
I must stop rambling and say that if when driving a steam locomotive in MSTS, you are travelling to fast with the reverser already well “cut off” then you have to much steam on and need less regulator. When faced with a grade you will need both more steam and more “cut off” again depending on the grade and load. Watch the F5 readings and by using the regulator/reverser try to keep moving as fast as line speed will allow but to ensure that steam production is not out paced by steam usage.Obviously a very interesting subject.

Andrew Gadd.
Steam Footplate Examiner.
Great Western Society.
Didcot Railway Centre.
U.K.

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Thank you for your input! Sooner or later, I'll learn enough to where I can sit somewhat comfortably in charge of these behemoths, but that may be a ways off. I think I'm starting to get a handle on the Kanawha (heh heh heh) but the UP steam engines are, by and large, giving me fits. They're tempting me to start ignoring the F5 readouts and simply concern myself with whether the cursed thing is running at the desired speed or not, which isn't the way that's supposed to be.I'd gladly read whatever you've got on steam locomotive braking.

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The reverser controls how long the valves are open to the cylinders. At 50% the valves are open for 50% of the piston stroke. This uses a lot of steam, but keeps the steam pressure against the piston very high. As an engine starts moving faster you can move the reverser to a much lower position. On fairly level track I run 2% which I believe is a little unrealistic as in too low, but it works. At 2% reverser the steam flows into the cylinder for only 2% of the travel. This allows the steam to expand against the piston for the majority of it's travel. At 2% reverser, the steam pressure against the piston at the end of the stroke would be almost zero.The regulator which is the Europe term or throttle American term controls the pressue of the steam going to the piston valves. If you are looking at the F5 there is a value for the Steam Chest Pressure. When the reverser is almost closed, the Steam Chest Pressue will be pretty low. As you add more regulator it rises. The advantage of full regulator and small reverser percentage (also known as cut off) is that when the valves to the cylinder are open they have full steam pressure to send to the cylinder. This allows the steam in the cylinder to expand and reduce in pressure as the piston moves. The more the pressure is reduced in the cylinder, the more work has been generated by the steam that was used.Examples: Assume 200 PSI Boiler pressure and a cylinder volume of 10 Cubic feet (ft3) which equates to roughly 5 pounds of steam if completly full at 200 PSI.50% reverser and 50% regulator. The regulator has now take steam from 200 PSI to 100 PSI. The steam volume has gone from 2 cubic feet per pound of water to 4 cubic feet per pound. The valves are open for 50% of the stroke. Thus the cylinder filled with 5 cubic feet of steam <10ft3/2(50%)> or with 1.25 pounds of steam <5 ft3/4 ft3 per pound of steam>. The steam pressure against the cylinder from the first opening of the valve to the close (0% stroke to 50% stroke) is 100 PSI, because that is all the regulator allowed. At the end of the travel the pressure in the cylinder is down to 50 PSI since the steam expanded the other 50% of the stroke. Remember this required 1.25 pounds of steam and that the steam that was sent up the stack was still at 50 PSI.25% reverser and 100% regulator. Steam going to the cylinder now occupies 2 ft3 per pound. The valves admit 1.25 pound of steam which is the same as before. <10 cubic feet cylinder/4(25%) = 2.5 ft3 occupied by steam. 2.5 ft3/2 pounds of steam per ft3 = 1.25 pounds admitted.> The pressure against the piston when for the first 25% of the movement is 200 PSI. This is twice what it was above. Thus more energy at this point. When the piston has moved half way back the pressure against it is now 100 PSI which is the same as above. When the piston reaches the end the pressure is back to 50 PSI. In this case you have the same end point. Note that the pressure against the cylinder for the first 25% of the stroke was 200 PSI instead of 100 PSI above. You have an average of 150 PSI against the piston from 25% to 50% of travel. This translates to a lot more energy put to the wheels. The last half is equal to the first example. Thus about 33% more energy for the same amount of steam.Why not start with a short or low percentage of reverser. At stop or very low speeds there are points where none of the valves would be open to admit steam to the cylinders. At least 50% is needed to be able to get the engine started.This topic also leads into the subject of back pressure which is how much energy is needed to get the steam out of the cylinder after it has done it's work. The more steam and the higher the pressure at the end of the stroke, the more energy it takes to get the steam out. Thus getting the steam pressure and volume at the end of the piston stroke as low as possible reduces the energy lost in getting the steam out. This also increase engine power. That is why as speeds increase the reverser must be lowered. As the engine starts moving faster it chokes itself trying to get the steam out of the cylinders. Not to mention that for most engines the boiler could not keep up with the demand for steam.Hope this helps. Really a deep and interesting subject.

Newton Kid

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P.Lee Thompson
Thank you for your interest.I must first dig out my download of the Berkshire, have a play, and then write up about steam locomotive brakes or at least the two different kinds used by MSTS.To answer your question of how much regulator/reverser to use, the answer is that as long as you are not using too much steam, water and coal I don’t suppose MSTS will care less. However, on the real thing I personally use as much regulator as is needed to get moving, reduce the “cut off” a little than more regulator and then more “cut off” and so on, until I get the desired result! This may sound very hit and miss, but remember, every locomotive and every load is different and most of all nothing can replace the feel of the beast through your boots and many years of experience.
If (and I don’t know) you have ever travelled behind a steam locomotive and experienced constant buffeting (a rocking backwards and forewords) this is most probably caused by the incorrect use of the regulator/reverser. Something that we will never get from MSTS.
I must stop rambling and say that if when driving a steam locomotive in MSTS, you are travelling to fast with the reverser already well “cut off” then you have to much steam on and need less regulator. When faced with a grade you will need both more steam and more “cut off” again depending on the grade and load. Watch the F5 readings and by using the regulator/reverser try to keep moving as fast as line speed will allow but to ensure that steam production is not out paced by steam usage.Obviously a very interesting subject.

Andrew Gadd.
Steam Footplate Examiner.
Great Western Society.
Didcot Railway Centre.
U.K.

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And after that, you have to get used to all the other quirks on different steam engines! .Its a minefield. Some stop on a sixpence (dime to the US), some take ages, some get wheelslip as soon as they start, others hardly ever.In the end you have to work with what you are driving, and react accordingly. While it may not be typical, it is certainly interesting! LOL.David

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In regards to steam usage, I'd appreciate it if you went and played with the NALW UP Challenger, Big Boy, and FEF-3, if you've got the time. I think my record on the Big Boy for being behind the curve of steam production versus usage was on the order of one hundred thousand "units", with me somehow making 163,000 odd while the thing was consuming steam at a rate of 263,000 or more. Earlier today I tried a Big Boy on the Florida Funnel with a 40-boxcar load and couldn't get over 33MPH on the flattest route I own. I seemed capped at 63K steam generation, with varying usage. Maybe I'd topped out the speed on the thing, but I'm not sure. I think if I interpret Harold Clitheroe's remarks from the past properly, NALW's got some sort of Big Boy next-generation ENG file in the works, but that it's very very difficult to do since the game engine handles the Big Boy in a very odd way.Thanks a bunch!

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Norfolk & Western’s Radford Division, Pulaski District: Who needs the Marias Pass?

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-03 AT 07:52 PM (EDT)

A shot below of a newly loaned Berkshire to the VRrCo (my own route "very much still under construction") while a truly astonished shedmaster contemplates the arrival of even more steam "Big Boys!!!!!!!!!!"Downloading as I type.

Andrew Gadd.
Steam Footplate Examiner.
Great Western Society.
Didcot Railway Centre.
U.K.

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-03 AT 07:49 PM (EDT)

No, can't get the picture to work. Try again later.

Andrew Gadd.
Steam Footplate Examiner.
Great Western Society.
Didcot Railway Centre.
U.K.

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-06-03 AT 01:09 AM (EDT)

>In regards to steam usage, I'd appreciate it if you went and
>played with the NALW UP Challenger, Big Boy, and FEF-3, if
>you've got the time. I think my record on the Big Boy for
>being behind the curve of steam production versus usage was
>on the order of one hundred thousand "units", with me
>somehow making 163,000 odd while the thing was consuming
>steam at a rate of 263,000 or more.
>
>Earlier today I tried a Big Boy on the Florida Funnel with a
>40-boxcar load and couldn't get over 33MPH on the flattest
>route I own. I seemed capped at 63K steam generation, with
>varying usage. Maybe I'd topped out the speed on the thing,
>but I'm not sure. I think if I interpret Harold Clitheroe's
>remarks from the past properly, NALW's got some sort of Big
>Boy next-generation ENG file in the works, but that it's
>very very difficult to do since the game engine handles the
>Big Boy in a very odd way.
>
>Thanks a bunch! here's my Big Boy in action on the Full Bucket line, heading east of Yonder. The consist is 35 N&W loaded hoppers (consist weight is just over 4100 tons)you may need to dig around on train-sim for updates for the Big Boy, I recall downloading several files for mine.. speed wise, I've had her up to 88 mph on the NEC, with a 13 car Amtrack consist.. that's all she'll do..Loyd L.

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>If anybody is interested I will try to write the same sort of
>essay on brakes. I'd be very interested. Thanka.

John in Chicago

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Please bear with me this essay on brakes is going to take a little time. I think that I should post it as a new topic this week, as "THE BRAKES ON A BERKSHIRE" Thanks all for your interest.

Andrew Gadd.
Steam Footplate Examiner.
Great Western Society.
Didcot Railway Centre.
U.K.

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Take all the time you need; no rush! Any information that you compile on running Berkshires, Big Boys, whatever, will be useful, and moreover, appreciated.

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Norfolk & Western’s Radford Division, Pulaski District: Who needs the Marias Pass?

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-07-03 AT 06:15 PM (EDT)

>Does anyone have detailed suggestions or guidelines for
>operating the Berkshire? Yeah! Don't listen to anyone from England or the Continent writing on North American RailRoad Operational or Design Practices....
As a general rule they have no idea IMO....
( Just jerking your chains guys - LOL )
However The operational environments, once you get past the steel wheels on steel rails part, are radically different resulting in totally different design objectives and operational procedures.It's a bit like me opining about the finer details of a Deltic! Or why the French waste all that wonderful class 8 rail running only TGVs on it... Why I'll bet they could easily move 2 or 3 200 car freights an hour over the LGV Med. at about 30 mph behind a couple (like 3 or 4) CC7200s M/Ued.....Hang tight and I'll try to get Fowlis and or HAC (i.e. Someone who understand NA Steam) to speak to this....Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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Thanks, Chuck! One thing I've learned is that chasing the HUD's numbers is kinda pointless (and perhaps self-defeating); there seems to be a patience component to driving any of those jerry-rigged monsters you folks managed to erect. Basically, you make adjustments, wait a little bit, and see what seems to be the balance, 'cause the numbers can spike weirdly for short occasions. I was hoping Mr. Clitheroe or someone from the manufacturers would comment; it seems he knows things about the creation of the ENG files for the various NALW steam locomotives that are akin to black magic from my perspective.

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Norfolk & Western’s Radford Division, Pulaski District: Who needs the Marias Pass?

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Well, I think what's needed is an article on the different methodologies of running steam. I see a lot of comments that are based on UK steam locos, and while there are similarities, I don't think that anyone is taking into account the differences between UK and US steam. There are vast differences in not only design (which was dictated by operational parameters), but also in the environments that the locomotives operated in. Even a simple thing like regional coal type and quality would be a factor in design and operation.
I know that on CP steamers,we used a gauge that displayed the difference between cylinder intake and exhaust pressures. Depending on the locomotive, and the situation (starting, cruise, ect) one tried
to keep the difference between the two to a specified number.
I also think that a comparison between similar UK and US steam would be useful. I have data on, and will probably use a CPR G3 Pacific, and a UK "Duchess" Class loco, unless any of our UK colleagues has what they would consider a better match to a G3.
I'll also wander on down to our steam operations road manager, and see what his thoughts are on optimum operating practices. Bill's a pretty fine hogger, real smooth when running our 2816 passenger runs.
So give me some time to put this together. One thing to remember is this - MSTS does not play by real-life rules when it comes to steam. The simulation is way off the mark, which is why steam .eng files are such a black art. BTW, yes, I do have some steam experience, was involved with the 2816 restoration project, and was educated by an old time mastersteam mechanic.
Cheers
Harold
Harold

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Just so UK guys can get you get a flavor for North American Mainline Steam Passenger operations, here are a few shots of a New York, New Haven and Hartford I5 Shoreliner (Semi-Streamlined Hudson 4-6-4 to the rest of you) doing what God and the Dumayne Brothers intended... Hauling 18 cars of the Advance Merchants' Limited out of South Station and down the Lines East at over 80 mph toward Providence and eventually New Haven where she will hand off to a EP4 or a Pair of DL109s for the rest of the ride into Gotham......
Far cry from a Princess or Royal Scott isn't she??? Remember this is only a moderate sized passenger Engine by North American Standards! It's easy to run 100 mph plus when you are dragging less than 10 cars....
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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