Is it a Sim or a Game?

Been seeing a few threads pop up dealing with this, one party says Sim, make it as hardcore as it gets, The other Party says game, play it for fun & enjoymentMy personal feelings are it's a sim, treat it as your virtual job. and keep it realistic (i.e. "As real as it gets" as seen on the box)Whats the general consensus of this from the community?*Not reasonable for irresponsible flame-wars created by this Post*

Shawn Kenselaar, shawnssk@yahoo.com
Screen Shot Forum Mod; Repainter for TKW & YLW
The NYO&W is Gone, But never forgotten!!!
Wow, you actually read this line?

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RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, Boilerbuster, Jun-27-03, 01:19 PM, (1) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, chucksc, Jun-27-03, 01:22 PM, (2) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, judge, Jun-27-03, 03:38 PM, (8) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, baldwin, Jun-27-03, 07:40 PM, (9) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, DRGWK36, Jun-27-03, 08:31 PM, (12) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, Vince, Jun-30-03, 03:10 AM, (37) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, judge, Jun-30-03, 10:14 AM, (38) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, NCC1701E, Jun-28-03, 04:23 PM, (22) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, calr, Jun-27-03, 01:35 PM, (3) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, rgh69, Jun-27-03, 02:09 PM, (5) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, bjrhatigan, Jun-27-03, 02:11 PM, (6) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, 3DRailHound, Jun-27-03, 02:16 PM, (7) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, judge, Jun-27-03, 11:01 PM, (18) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, andrewpickell, Jun-27-03, 02:03 PM, (4) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, computeraki, Jun-27-03, 07:55 PM, (10) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, FireDragonLightning, Jun-27-03, 08:29 PM, (11) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, Bluevoss, Jun-27-03, 08:46 PM, (13) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, computeraki, Jun-28-03, 06:41 AM, (19) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, heffed, Jun-27-03, 10:06 PM, (14) How did I qualify as an engineer?, dispatcher618, Jun-28-03, 12:02 PM, (20) RE: How did I qualify as an engineer?, judge, Jun-29-03, 02:01 PM, (25) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, Texas Eagle 550, Jun-27-03, 10:15 PM, (15) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, flarrfan, Jun-27-03, 10:32 PM, (16) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, cn_bayview, Jun-27-03, 10:53 PM, (17) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, cyberjim, Jun-28-03, 04:10 PM, (21) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, annabelle, Jun-28-03, 05:19 PM, (23) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, heffed, Jun-28-03, 05:38 PM, (24) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, sniper297, Jun-29-03, 03:07 PM, (26) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, FireDragonLightning, Jun-29-03, 03:29 PM, (27) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, dispatcher618, Jun-29-03, 07:14 PM, (31) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, Bluevoss, Jun-29-03, 04:02 PM, (28) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, BNSF4723, Jun-29-03, 04:39 PM, (29) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, judge, Jun-29-03, 04:58 PM, (30) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, Bluevoss, Jun-29-03, 07:40 PM, (32) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, sniper297, Jun-29-03, 10:11 PM, (33) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, heffed, Jun-30-03, 02:35 AM, (36) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, judge, Jun-29-03, 10:22 PM, (34) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, dispatcher618, Jun-29-03, 10:54 PM, (35) RE: Is it a Sim or a Game?, americanflag9190, Jul-06-03, 06:43 PM, (39)

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Its a Sim no Doubt or I would not have gotten it if it wasnt. almost all my Programs are simulators (CFS1, CFS2, FS2002,WW2 Online Blitzkreg, and Gran Turismo 3 for PS2)
However I do have a list of other games I have as well but that is another list
I also have a First Person Role playing game Called Star Trek Bridge CommanderDon Pottorff
Long Live the Steam

Don Pottorff
Long Live the Steam
www.vmf323.com

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Your 1st hint might be the word "Simulator" in the official title...
e.g. "Microsoft Train Simulator"
How much clearer could that be?
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-27-03 AT 03:44 PM (EDT)

To me a simulator is something that emulates the real thing.As a rated pilot having flown Cessnas, Cherokees, Mooneys, Beeches, and have a little Aztec time, although I never got my ME rating I can tell you that, despite it's name, MSFS is NOT a simulator.Even though many wannabe pilots get a few hundred hours behind the monitor and a Sidewinder Joystick and maybe dream that the pilot of an airliner they are flying on becomes disabled and they will be able land the thing, almost non of them would be able to. I doubt I could easily land a Boeing 737 without mishap based on several hundred hours in light aircraft and even more time flying B737s on FS2K2. In fact, I can land a real airplane better than I can any airplane on anything between FS5.1 and FS2K2. I imagine the same holds true for MSTS. I would challenge anyone to safely take even a short string of empty gondolas down Cajon Pass based on his experience in this sim....err, I mean game.If this were a serious simulator there would be a lot more to it, like emergency procedures, real control levers, seat of the pants inputs, and peripheral views outside the cab windows.Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding himself into thinking he is a real train driver just as the MSFS pilot who thinks that is a real simlator is deluding himself if he thinks he is a real airplane pilot or the golf simmer who can break 100 everytime he plays is ready to join the PGA.Its a game, and very entertaining and enjoyable one that is well worth the price.Noel

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A simulator by definition simulates the real thing, thereby giving a real aid to training. It is a massive item of hardware/software in the air industry and is also starting to make inroads in training for rail. What we have on our hands here is a computerised simulation which is totally incapable of transmitting the feel of the real thing. What is is supremely capable of doing is providing an environment which gives the illusion of doing the real thing. Now please note the difference between simulator and simulation.Having said that I agree, it is very entertaining, and well worth the price. It is however, whatever it is in the eye of the beholder, and definitely not a training aid.mervyn@madasafish.com

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Noel - you make a lot of good points on the side that it's not a sim. But I'd have to place it in the sim category, based on the fact that you don't keep score, you don't win or lose. The program lets the user get some idea of what is involved in the real activity, under a range of different conditions. I agree it's definitely not a professional (or "serious") training simulator like the airlines use, but it doesn't set me back several million dollars, either.It all comes down to what a person thinks is a game and what they consider a sim. I can put it in either the category of modestly realistic simulator or highly accurate game, but based on my definition involving scoring and winning, I'll put it in the sim column.Andy

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>>>I doubt I could easily land a Boeing 737 without mishap based on several hundred hours in light aircraft and even more time flying B737s on FS2K2. In fact, I can land a real airplane better than I can any airplane on anything between FS5.1 and FS2K2.<<< About 10-15 years ago Flying Magazine did address that exact question:
"Can a low time (165 hours in this case) pilot take over a B-727 on auto-pilot at cruise altitude (FL310) and safely land it?"
He was put in a REAL aircraft simulator (American Airlines I think).
Bottom line; he safely landed at DFW using all of the longest runway.
I have over 600 hours and I feel I could do it.
There would however be an extremely high pucker factor.

Regards,
Vince Cockeram
NEC Track Team
Author of the NECv4 Route

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We both have about the same amount of flying time.I would not voluntarily do it. Of course I would attempt it if I had to.I wonder if they ever tried the same thing with someone who only had MSFS time?Noel

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Star trek Bridge Commander Rocks! Allthough it to could be called a Sim if you think about it.Stephen White

Oh and have a nice day.

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-27-03 AT 01:36 PM (EDT)

I have to grit my teeth every time I see someone say it's a game or they are "playing" train simulator. For those of us spending hundreds of long hours creating routes, scenery objects, activities, etc., it is definitely a simulator.For the kids who don't take anything seriously, I guess it's a game but I try not to get down to their level.(edit) Incidentally, do people "play" flight simulator or do they fly the airplanes?Cal Rasmussen
Beaverton, OR
cal.rasmussen@verizon.netColumbia Gorge Route (Phase 1 80% Completed)

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Me thinks it's a simulator too. Never spend so much money on upgrading my computer and add-ons for MSTS and even a Raildriver. I'm way too involved to call it a game. Like GTA3 Vice City, that's a game. Not a simulator how to waste other people! (or is it? )

Best regards,
Richard.

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A sim or a game?
I definitely use MSTS recreationally.
And since games are recreational, does that make MSTS a game? Yes.
But when I go into Route Editor and get all frustrated, MSTS is NOT a game.
Semantics? Well.....
Considering that a lot of people work very hard to make MSTS as "real as it gets", (far more so than what came in the box), I'ld say simulation. By the way, for myself, I DRIVE my trains, (even in outside views), and FLY my planes.

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Its a sim, and its sooo much better than what alot of us were using just a few years ago Best regards,
Brad Brownwww.3DTrainStuff.com

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They play at flying airplanes. I personally know two other pilots besides myself who enjoy 'playing with' the sim. One is a former India Airlines B747 captain, the other is a former Mustang and later Boeing Stratocruiser pilot. Neither of them consider MSFS a simulator. It is a relaxing game.Havng said that, it is definitely more than a game for those who produce the addons. Those are usually professional pieces of work. And they enhance the game tremendously, but they don't convert it into a simulator.I didn't buy the thing to learn how to be a railroad engineer. I bought it becasue it is as funto play with as MSFS is.Noel

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I think the best thing about this program is that it can be both.You can drive a 10,000 foot grain train or you can drive Frosty the Snowman or cupid. It's what you make it...look at the vast variety of routes available from KHP2 to the Rollercoaster route. You can do it all...thats what keeps me in the action...even though I lean more to the simulation side, I still enjoy blasting over Marias Pass in the Jet Test vehicle at insane rates of speed.- Andrew

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For me it's definately a sim, even though I realise that there are a lot of users out there who look at it as a game (the ones that haven't tried the tools let's say). It's what Andrew says here above, it can be both and that's the beautiful thing about TS. Take Michael Vone's rollercoaster-route for instance, now that's as close as it gets to a game, but for me the fun is trying to drive a train as realistic as possible and building a route that's as realistic as possible.Building Greater Toronto Area incl. TTC-metrolines. Had to restart everything. Tracks 20% ready now.......

More info:
http://www.geocities.com/hrbetten/GTA_route.html

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I feel its a sim at heart, maybe missing some accuraccy to the real thing, but who wants to drive a train whenever, oe who wants to wait till one is repaired? If they make it as realilistic as damage and problems to the loco, then they would most likey have to get it repaired, and it wouldnt be too realisitc if the thing ws repaired in a few secs...would it? I may be a bit confusing, but my point is, too much realism, and the game may not be too much fun anymore.
OT: Mr.Computeraki, great idea for a route! Just one question, what time period is it? IE, the roundhouse under the CN Tower, will it be operable and used, as in older times, or will it be a brewery as it is now in real life. Im guessing it'll be modern so we can run GO eguipment. Im anxiously awaiting updates!Jay http://www.freewebs.com/peterbiltsrule Site now with new Message Board!

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Its a sim.A game is made to entertain. A sim is made to teach. The joy of MSTS is not in raw entertainment, but in learning a skill. No, it might not be as extensive as we would wish, but it still gives us an appriciation to the techniques involved in bringing a long train down a steep grade.Before playing MSTS (and, thruthfully, TraimMaster4, which in the early days did a far better job illustrating the tricks of train operation) I only had "book" knowledge of how to run trains. As a model railroader, I would just turn the knob in our op sessions and "drive" down hills without a thought.Now, as I approach the grade, I will drop my speed a little (as I engage my dynamics and warm my airbrakes). Then I try to enter the grade at a little under the speed I want to hold, anticipating the train on the hill. I try not to speed up or slow down on the descent, since I know that when I run this sim, I am working at holding the speed constant. It has made me a far better operator, and I'm spreading this handling ability to others.If I was in a club that shot nazis, I guess I would be arguing that "Castle Wolfenstien" was a sim. Bluevoss-

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Hi Jay,It will be a modern route focussing on the GO Trains so without the roundhouse, but I'm going to build all the subdivisions where the GO Trains go. I will also build the metrolines and if I have time also a streetcarline (King Street most probably). I'll try to post an update in the weekend with some screenshots in the route design-forum and of course at my website. Thanks for your interest.HermanBuilding Greater Toronto Area incl. TTC-metrolines. Had to restart everything. Tracks 20% ready now.......

More info:
http://www.geocities.com/hrbetten/GTA_route.html

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Game!To quote Mirriam-Webster,
Main Entry: sim·u·la·tor
Pronunciation: 'sim-y&-"lA-t&r
Function: noun
Date: 1835
: one that simulates; especially : a device that enables the operator to reproduce or represent under test conditions phenomena likely to occur in actual performance Let's be blunt. MSTS only loosly resembles this definition. Yes, it does simulate, but does it really reproduce or represent under test conditions phenoma likely to occur in actual performance? Let's face it. MSTS is not "As real as it gets". Does anyone actually consider "The Sims" or "Sim City" to be simulators? I didn't think so. They "simulate", but they really aren't much like really living or developing a city. A simulator is an actual hardware object that mimics reality as close as possible for training purposes. Sometimes incorporating motion bases to simulate the actual forces you may experience in the real deal.Even with my beloved Raildriver, I just can't consider this a simulator. I'm sitting in my den at home in front of my computer making various objects move around on my monitor. This sounds suspiciously like a video game to me.Again from our friends at M-W.
Main Entry: video game
Function: noun
Date: 1973
: an electronic game played by means of images on a video screen and often emphasizing fast action Now we're talking! Now you're going to say, MSTS doesn't have fast action. Note the word often.I think the whole "simulator" crowd is just a bit too serious on this subject. No matter what sort of noble title you slap on it, we're playing with trains here folks! Are we too embarassed to admit it?? I love MSTS and like to "play" by the book. I don't speed, run reds, etc... I try to run as close to prototypical as possible, but I'm still honest with myself and don't think that what I'm doing in any way preps me for the real thing. Sure I know what the controls do and when to use them, but as anyone who took drivers ed after simulators were introduced, actually driving a car is as similar an experience to the simulator as listening to the radio is to playing in a band in front of thousands of people.A simulator aims to engage as many of our senses as possible. MSTS gives us visual and auditory stimulation. Some people have added bass shakers and such to add some vibration to the experience, and now we have Raildriver to simulate the control of a locomotive, yet we're still not getting much of a "simulation".I see route developers saying that MSTS isn't a game because of the work that goes into route developement. Sure, route developing is an intense, frustrating, and time consuming process, but so is any game developement. -Steps of soapbox experiencing an uncontrollable urge to play with my trains-
-Jeff

Union Pacific is my drug.

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I think that my input on this subject is somewhat important since I have just recently qualified as a diesel locomotive engineer on the local tourist railroad. I really like what Jeff has pointed out in his message. Not so much the definitons of "Simulator" versus "Game" or "Video Game" but what the program is actually used for. In the realm of simulator, I think you have to give credit to MSTS for simulating certain conditions and environments. They are a narrow set of conditions that are represented, and it does well to educate all of us on basic air brake operation, train handling, and other railroad procedures. The more accurate the physics are for your equipment and routes, the better quality your knowledge will be. This is the argument for "simulator". On the other hand, would I have qualified as an engineer based solely on my 1 and a half years of "experience" in MSTS? Heck no! I've been moving locomotives (real ones) for a year, and yard switching for the last six months. Maybe MSTS helped me understand air brakes a little bit better, but most of my knowledge has come from working on the railroad for the last 5 years as a conductor and brakeman.Motion is an important simulating element, and until they start selling us big boxes on pneumatic jacks to plug our computers into, you will never experience the sensation of having all the slack in a train run into your engine, or making a hard joint because your new brakeman hasn't quite figured out his hand signals. Until your "simulator" can tell you what it feels like to take a train down a 2% grade, it's merely a recreational game. I learned a lot more taking a 5 car train (one car without brakes) down a 2% grade than I will ever learn from MSTS.A simulator should be able to prepare you for emergencies too. What do you do if your air compressor fails? If your reverser fails on a steam locomotive, is there a chance you can still make it home? What if the brakes on a car won't function properly?It's a highly accurate Game.Now I must get ready to go drive a train.

- DISPATCHER 618

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If you can't close your eyes while you are running it and know when you are going around a turn or switching over to a passing siding it's not a simulator.Noel

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I have been playing MSTS since it came out and I would have to say it is a Sim because when I play MSTS I am Simulating what it's like to operate a real train while on the other hand if I sit in front of my Xbox or PS2 and play Dead to Rights or Max Payne thta is "playing" a game.
Chris
Projects:
Conrail Toledo Line:21% done
Pacific Parlour Car:33% done

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-27-03 AT 10:33 PM (EDT)

It's both, of course. For myself, I treat it as a simulation. For a friend of mine who likes to run intermodals pulled by Big Boys over modern routes at 100+ mph, it's fun.Since I apparently contributed to this debate in another thread, how about stating it like it is...payware designers who want the largest possible target audience should make sure their product satisfies BOTH gamers and simmers. I wouldn't assume to tell a gamer that s/he should be operating like the prototype, and I wouldn't hesitate to tell a simmer to lighten up and tolerate the gamers who just want to have fun. That was part of my rant at what I thought was a 3DTS effort to make customers treat it as a sim, according to their rules without options. As we finally learned, the issue was one of activity design, not merely GAME OVER.So the answer in the community should be tolerance of all users, no matter how they have fun with MSTS, while we make sure that payware producers know what we want and tell them when they've hit the mark and when they've missed it.

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I'd call it a sim.
BUT with the limited features it has it can arguably be called a game.I dont treat it as my virtual job (I dont run 8 hours straight)
I dont call it a sim and i dont call it a game i call it a hobby

Rob.
Mile 21.0 CN Oakville Sub.

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I think its both too. When I bought it new, it was in the computer games section of an online store. I have also seen it in retail stores in the computer games section. Its a game for the kids and a quasi-simulator for the adults. Real simulators put peaple in dangerous scenarios to see how they react in certsin situations where decisions could mean loss of life. MSTS is pretty good for just basic driving operations from point A to Point B and negotiating other traffic and obeying signals, but its really not like a real commercial simulator where you can actually feel the situation you are in. And actually being in a simulator is definately not like the real thing as you get to walk away from whatever scenario they throw at you, every single time. Sinulators are good training instruments, but will never replace real world experience.
So for me, from Shawn's original question--Its both depending on how you want to use it!! Jim

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I think it is a matter of the rewards the program provides to different people. For myself, someone who will never be able to drive a real train, it is as close to the real thing as I'll ever come. But, also, it is continuing to provide a serious learning experience. And, it's FUN. What difference does it make what you call it?Annabelle

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>What difference does it make what you call it? That's my point. I'm playing with trains. -Jeff

Union Pacific is my drug.

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This has to be a joke, of course it's a game. Somebody show me a real life prototype for that, and then I'll concede that it might be a simulator!Oops.

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Don't drag Thomas the Tank Engine into this! LOL....And that picture of him IS real, he pulled some excursions in Strasburg, Pensylvania I believeJay http://www.freewebs.com/peterbiltsrule Site now with new Message Board!

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Hey, the prototype for the Thomas in the top picture is actually a glorified caboose with no center beam and a very noisy cab. Not hard to simulate, just make sure you have enough ear plugs and smoke juice.

- DISPATCHER 618

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This is one of the stupidest (and most facinating) debates to date on this board.How about this - for people who don't think its real enough to be considered a sim, play by the following "house" rules...1) If you do something (not blowing at a crossing, speeding) that would have you lose your job, then quit your real-life job and start looking for work again. THAT would make it more realistic.
2) If you lose control of your train and crash, get a handgun and blow your brains out. Then you'll really get the effect.And for those on the game side, you'll need to have a "score" so you can compare how well you do to others. How about the frame rate? Then you can post high scores for specific locations. That will be cool. Maybe MSTS could add a way to keep your top scores at each location so you can try to do even better. And instead of calling it "boxcar pickups", we'll call them "train-length powerups".
Having worked on sims in real life (the V22 for GE, specificially), I would still clasify this as a sim. Sims are not defined by "motion" or any other tricks. They are defined as teaching tools. If you learn something about the real world from your activities, its a sim.Bluevoss-

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"Is it a Sim or a Game"?Who the hell cares? As long as you're having fun and it feels real, I don't care what the hell people call it.Looks Like a Pony RUNS LIKE A STALLION

~Bow down to the Fuhrer~

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It would be relatively simple to set MSTS up for scoring by assignning points each time you exceed the speed limit, fail to toot the toot, exceed passenger comfort limits, etc. By your definition that would make this a game.What does it teach? Can I drive a train after loggin a few hours on MSTS? What does it teach me that I can't read in a book somewhere? Simulators start where the the books leave off.I've always considered Scrabble a game. It does keep score, but it also teaches. Should we call it a "vocabulary and spelling simulator"?And what about Chess? No points scored here. You either win or lose. Is it a game or a strategy simulator?I think the wannabe train drivers would like to think of it as a sim to support thier Walter Mitty fantacies of really being able to drive a train.The only person weighing in here who identifies himself as a working railroad engineer takes the game side.I PLAY the GAME because I have an interest in railroads and railroading and it's FUN. No more than that. I have no delusions that I am learning how to drive freight trains. I have also been known to carry silly arguments to thier extreme...Noel

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A forum like this is where extreme arguments are aired. No problems there.You can look at chess as a game. Deeper, Chess does an admirable job SIMULATING the influence and deception that is the core of being human. Unlike most games that have you move pieces around, king yourself, or buy up property, chess does a wonderful job at showing how influence, threat, and projected power really work. I think a chess set should have been sent out on the voyager spaceship - that would show any aliens who found it what we REALLY are like... I'll still stick with my "Sim" take on MSTS. For one thing, unlike a game, the routes are more or less correct down to the foot. Whereas a game (made for entertainment) might leave some of those long lonely stretches out, our routes tend to contain them. A game would simply have interesting scenery, 500 tunnels, and maybe a vertical loop of track. MSTS has the of the loneliest stretches on earth modeled (like some of the sections of the Cajon Pass). Hardly going to pull the "Battlefield 1942" crowd in.The V22 sim that I mentioned earlier was not designed to teach its pilots how to fly it. You could not fly that sim and walk out to a V22 and get it into the air. Even in the air, the proceedures for transitioning to forward flight were over-simplied. Rather, the point of that simulator was to teach V22 pilots how to make their approches and landings on ship decks, fields, and rooftops. The point was not to teach them to fly, but just how to land.In that sense, MSTS is the same. We have a very rudimentary system of controls (slack is hardly modeled). Also not covered is how to start up engines, en-route emergencies, and train operations. Signalling and dispatching is hardly covered at all (I'd love to see MSTS run under TT&TO, but thats another topic).However, what you do get for your money is a chance to run a specific area, whistling at the correct times and working the brakes SOMEWHAT realistically. No, its not dead on. Not even close. But I think the spirit of the thing is towards the simulator, rather than the game.In a nutshell, if you don't know anything about trains, you will likely not play it more than once (since games are made for entertainment, it fails on that regard). However, it can act as a very crude training tool (no pun intended).Bluevoss-

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Actually you do score points in chess, Queen = 8 points, Rook =5, Knight & Bishop = 3, Pawn = 1. What we're finding here tho is that like any other game/hobby/vocation, some people do take it more seriously than others. Model Railroading has always been like that, some people don't mind if you call it a "toy train set", others turn purple with apoplexy. Creators don't count rivets, and rivet counters don't create, just criticize. One of the Model Railroading greats, I think it was John Paige, was describing sawing off the pilot and the pilot & trailing trucks off a Hudson, and then removing all the connecting rods and the inner set of drivers to turn a 4-6-4 into a bizzare looking 0-4-0 (or would that be an 0-2-0-2-0?) that wouldn't derail or short out on tight curves. Purists would shudder, but to the guy who did the hack job smooth operation was more important. We didn't go to that extreme to improve operations, but we did paint the insides of the rails at switches with nail polish to keep the flanges from shorting, and spent a lot of money on Kadee couplers and RP25 wheelsets, not to mention Sagami can motors and half a ton of lead weights to make our HO layout "as real as it gets." This game/sim (or sim/game, if you prefer) is the same, some people are happy to run trains around with no apparent purpose, others will put a lot of effort into making it feel as realistic as possible. Hell, I spent $300 bucks on a pair of Raildriver consoles, cuz I couldn't stand using the mouse or keyboard to drive a train. Plainsman works his caboose off trying to make the physics more realistic, some people prefer not to have them too realistic cuz it's too hard for casual trainsimmers to drive that way.
"And that picture of him IS real, he pulled some excursions in Strasburg, Pensylvania I believe"Yep, he's based in Strasburg, it was that club that restored a 1913 Porter 0-6-0 tank engine, and commited sacrilege by adding a fiberglass Thomas face to it and (shudder!) converting him to knuckle couplers so he could pull American equipment. That shot was "A Day Out With Thomas" at the Illinois Railway Museum in Union Illinois in August of '01.http://www.train-sim.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=1145&forum=DCForumID6#15One of those really lucky shots, I'm getting so old I couldn't run in front of the little guy fast enough to catch his expression, but his mother's reaction to his expression really made the shot.
"Hey, the prototype for the Thomas in the top picture is actually a glorified caboose with no center beam and a very noisy cab. Not hard to simulate, just make sure you have enough ear plugs and smoke juice."Hee-hee, considering the immortal John Fowlis cranked that out for the kiddies in a single night, it's a pretty reasonable facsimile! 3600 downloads for Thomas, apparently some people like him! Mike's still waiting for somebody to make Percy tho.

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>http://www.train-sim.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=1145&forum=DCForumID6#15
>
>One of those really lucky shots, I'm getting so old I
>couldn't run in front of the little guy fast enough to catch
>his expression, but his mother's reaction to his expression
>really made the shot. Ah... I didn't make the connection that she was looking at the little kid. I figured she was really excited to see Thomas. -Jeff

Union Pacific is my drug.

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I doubt anyone who was not interested in trains would buy it. Actually the F-117 pilots DO transition directly from the simulator to the aircraft itself. There are no two seat version of the aircraft.Of course the pilots selected for the aircraft already have hundreds of hours of jet time, but they do spend about three weeks in the simulator before flying the real aircraft. The instructor pilot flies along with him in a black T-38 for his first few flights.The first PC aircraft simulator you flew a wire frame airplane around pylons. You couldn't even land. Just because MS called it a flight simulator didn't make fly one.As sophisticated as Fightsim 2002 has become I still wouldn't regard it as a simulator. It's an excellent tool for teaching navigation, but a far cry from a simulator.Noel

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All I'm saying is that the scope of the simulation is very narrow, and even more narrow if you are using it straight out of the box because of the inaccurate physics that are programmed into it. It is still very good at what it does, and there is nothing about the program that I find extremely out of the ordinary. (Except for Frosty the Snowman...) I classify it as a game because it gives us all pleasure, enjoyment, and entertainment. And you don't see Microsoft marketing it as a training tool to railroads. And there is a scoring system in MSTS: It's called the evaluation screen at the end of the activity. I try to achieve a score of "zero errors or mistakes." I believe you can save the evaluation for future reference as well. I just don't want people thinking that they can go out and buy MSTS off the shelf and know everything there is to know about pulling a throttle.This could even get into a larger discussion about computer gaming in general. Is Quake a simulator, or a game? If it is a game, then why do we need all the simulated details of real violence, carnage, and death? If it is a simulation, then what are we teaching kids/teens? I don't want any answers to these questions, because I'm sure it's going to take this discussion on a completely different path, but just think carefully about the overall goals of the gaming industry in terms of achieving realism. If somebody comes right out and officially declares that MSTS a "simulator" or a "game", it won't affect how I spend my time with the program. We all have our own opinions and uses for it- the end result being pleasure and enjoyment- and either way each of us has valid input on how future versions of the program could be structured. I'm tempted to use it to repaint liveries in a virtual world to see if I like the design before I request the boss to spend $2,000 on an actual paint job. It would be really interesting to see more railroad engineers weigh in on this topic. As an engineer, I don't think that everybody who has MSTS appreciates how much the program is able to simulate. I'm still amazed when I set the brakes on a 50 car train and I can watch the slack pull out. But at the same time I see how much it lacks to be a 100% (or even 99%) simulation. So I favor the "game" side of the issue, big deal. I'm sure there are some engineers who would favor the "simulator" side.

- DISPATCHER 618

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It all depends on how you use it.My cousin likes to crash the trains I like to use it as a simWe are talking about Train SIMULATORi would take this sim/game over my other sim/game Flight Simulator...........98

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