Do you like Amtrak ?

LAST EDITED ON Jun-06-03 AT 01:40 PM (EDT)

Does this poll serve any purpose? Who benefits from it?I dunno? Amtrack can do whatever they want, it doesn't matter to me./JonatanSteam rules!

My E-mail jonatan.gronoset@telia.com

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Well, I model the 1950 SP Coast Route in N-Scale. That is a parade of fine trains, all with dedicated crews. Job one is geting the trains through on time. I even like the little step-stools the porters would set out at the base of the coach steps - painted in daylight colors, just like the rolling stock. How cool!I'll support Amtrak becuase its the only rail service us car-happy americans have. But whenever I see it, the song "City of New Orleans" goes through my head.Bluevoss-

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I just wanted some opinions on Amtrak and the main reason for polls is to see if the Majority of the people here like or dislike Amtrak. My website for MSTS Pic's www.msnusers.com/shanestrains

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Amtrash need to the way of the dodo bird. Did any of you read Gunn's interview in Railway Age? He refutes everything that has been put forth for Amtrash on the forums, even my position about the NEC and other corridors. He states that Amtrash will be on the Federal Dole for as long as it exists. Time to pull the plug.BTW, why did you put this freaking poll in the MSTS forum instead of the general?Kevin Arceneaux
DEFAULT IS FOR DUMMIES
Lone Wolf Activities Forum on www.3DTrains.com

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>
>BTW, why did you put this freaking poll in the MSTS forum
>instead of the general? \Sorry about that
My website for MSTS Pic's www.msnusers.com/shanestrains

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I'm a free market kinda guy. If private enterprise didn't wanna do it, the government shouldn't. I'm also against tax-payer funded stadiums for those sports weenies.

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I grew up knowing only Amtrak. I (obviously) like Amtrak - without them, let's face the truth: there would be no passenger trains in the US! Remember, railroads were not forced to join Amtrak, but they were forced to run their passenger trains for a few more years if they didn't. They joined because they did not want to run passenger trains anymore. Passenger trains are an unfortunately money-losing proposition right now. What i think is that they need to throw a BIG chunk of money in right now, for high speed rail in "corridor" areas such as the Midwest and California. In this day of tight and troublesome airport security and such, a high-speed train between, say St. Louis, MO and Chicago, IL would most likely end up being more popular than the airlines. Though the trip would be longer, the less wait in the stations would make up for it (well, assuming they'd actually be on time )!------ BUZZ ------

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Hi Kevin,Haven't read the Railway Age article, though I bet it is interesting. However, to put the Federal Transportation Dole in proper perspective, here are the 2001 statistics, given in millions of dollars:Federal Monies Given To:
Amtrak - $521 million
Airlines & Airports - $12,000 million ($12 billion)
Highways - $33,000 million ($33 billion)Airlines & airports do not include the additional $15 billion given for the 9/11 bailout.So, private airlines/airports got 23 times as much as Amtrak. Include the $15 billion bailout, and they got 51 times as much. Highways, used by private industry and individuals got 63 times as much as Amtrak. Of course we as tax payers paid for all of it. Maybe proportionally, this is how it should be doled out in terms of passenger miles travelled; I don't know. I found the statistics interesting though.However, $521 million to me seems a pittance to keep a national railroad running over 3,000 miles sea-to-sea. It certainly is a pittance in comparison to the national debt, or the amount of income tax collected each year, or the amount spent on the military, or the estimated $100 billion ($100,000 million) spent on the war with Iraq.I guess it boils down to whether or not we want passenger rail as a country. Certainly the NE corridor needs it. I could see a private company or companies running a system there and perhaps making a profit. But for the rest of the country I don't think you'd get a taker anymore for long distance passenger rail. Just a gut feel.P.S. Statistics from March 2002 Trains Magazine.

Bill
http://msts-trains.tripod.com

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If it was usefull, but other than certain areas it is not. Yes, I have that issue to. I have seen those numbers refuted in other mags and as a former gov't worker, I don't generally believe Amtrashes numbers.Kevin Arceneaux
DEFAULT IS FOR DUMMIES
Lone Wolf Activities Forum on www.3DTrains.com

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In any event, even doubling the Amtrak dole, Amtrak still receives a pittance compared to the rest. You may be right - long distance rail may be an outmoded way of travel in this country. Seems a shame. What bothers me is that you can't give chump change to an operation as big as Amtrak then expect it to be profitable. Rail passenger rates can't be raised and expected to pay for it because they are already the same or more than airfare and they must compete. Either fund it properly or let it go. They need to decide if they really want it or not.

Bill
http://msts-trains.tripod.com

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Yeah, but you're comparing a small railroad to massive transportation centers... c'mon. Also, I don't like the argument, "Well, it's not very much money anyway". Money adds up. That's one of the reasons our gov'ment is so dang bloated right now. Last, I believe NASA gets less money than Amtrak (I believe). Personally, I believe space exploration and science to be much better money spent, than paying to have people shuttled between NY and Washington (or wherever it goes).Just my opinion.

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Yes, you're right it is much smaller, that's why I said in my first reply "Maybe proportionally, this is how it should be doled out in terms of passenger miles travelled....". However,More Federal Dole per year, in order of dole....the ranching industry $250 million
the timber industry $475 million
Amtrak $521 million
the mining industry $1,000 million
TOTAL NASA FUNDING will grow to $14,793.2 million for FY 2002. Yes, it all adds up. The above presented just for comparison. I hate taxes as much as the next guy.Just food for thought, that's all. All statistics from government or private action group sites via Google.

Bill
http://msts-trains.tripod.com

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-06-03 AT 11:24 PM (EDT)

I agree, amtrak never compared to SP, GN, IC, or RG, etc when it comes to astetics and services. That was another time, but a better one in terms of passenger trains, which is why most model railroaders like myself like the post war era. I like the modern cause it's what runs, but passenger trains and freight trains of yesteryear or more fun to paint model, draw, etc, IMOedit to add etc after RGHauling America one pixel at a time
Bill Hemb; train sim repainter http://www.cascadenscale.org/Evergreen/tsdm.htm

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You must remember that there are a lot of transportation services out there funded by the public (i,e, via taxes and user fees). The airline system, while planes are run by private companies, receives huge subsidies for airport construction, roadways/transit to airports, security, land clearing, etc. The airlines, of course, pay fees to offset these amounts, but the airline industry is STILL subsidized. Highway construction is also subsidized with taxes. CHP and emergency response is subsidized. User fees, gas taxes, etc. do not cover all highway costs. So, when you say Amtrak should be disbanded because it will never be self-sufficient, realize that a lot of transportation systems are subsidized. Amtrak's subsidies, per year, are about 1-2% of what goes into the highway and roadway system every year. We are one of the few Western industrialized countries who puts so little effort into inter-regional transit, and developing our growth around transit. B

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I've always liked Amtrak Being that I live about a mile away from Newark Penn Station. I have been watching Amtrak Trains since I was about 5 or 6 and my first trainset was an Amtrak Trainset, So I guess I can say Yes.
Chris
Projects:
Conrail Toledo Line:21% done
Pacific Parlour Car:12% done

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Just wanted to add this to my post:I have taken Amtrak over 12 timesAuto Train: 2 times
Empire Builder: Once
Coast Starlight Once
Southwest Chief: 3 Times
Texas Eagle: 2 times
California Zephyr: Once
Capitol Limited: 2 timesChris
Projects:
Conrail Toledo Line:21% done
Pacific Parlour Car:12% done

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You're all forgetting the fact that Amtrak was created because intercity passenger service in the U.S. became unprofitable, with the proliferation of airplanes and automobiles. If Amtrak was killed, then who would handle intercity passenger service? No private company would want to, including the major rail carriers, because it is inherently unprofitable. Amtrak would never survive if privatized, no matter how efficient it became.
Bottom Line: If intercity passenger trains were profitable, then Amtrak would be unecessary, and no ammount of good manegement will ever make Amtrak profitable. If you kill Amtrak, then you permanantly kill intercity passenger trains in the U.S.Jonathan Nikiforovs.
Milepost 180, CP Belleville Sub.

Repainter for Yonder Locomotive Works.

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If they want my support, (and who wouldn't ) They should have a train go out of CNW station along the CNW West Line. Then I would like it instead of "kind of"Thanks!
METRAUP

Chicago-Geneva Metra Line

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Gonna go with 'Yes'. Amtrak is, I believe, going to deliver me to New York City in order to see a girl I know this fall, once she starts at a university up there. Since I'd never drive that far, and refuse to take airlines thanks to a wee aviation incident about a year and a half ago, I'll be riding rails, thank you. If all goes well, I'll take an Acela Express from Washington to NYC, so that should be nifty once I get there. All connections to Washington D.C. Union Station from the south would be from something out of the Genesis/P32/40/42 family, right?Anyways, to address several points:1. I think I read an interview with David Gunn (should've hired his brother Peter) in Railway Age online, but I'm not sure. Maybe the head of Amtrak knows things that we don't. It's possible, especially since we're sitting here on the outside looking in.2. Death to the notion of taxpayer funded stadiums. Amtrak is, however, a different creature in my mind. Admittedly I'm coming at this from a 'pro-rail' position, but I tend to think that Amtrak passenger service alleviates to some extent the highway/aerial congestion that exists in say the Northeast Corridor. Therefore, elimination of a passenger service would put the commuters in the position of either driving or flying, assuming that they didn't move closer, buy a Segway (snicker snicker) or get a different job. Inasmuch as Federal funds will be spent for NEC operations, be they highway, aviation, or rail, they might as well be spent on Amtrak.3. I'm convinced that, in light of the current vulnerabilities of aviation travel to uncooperative fellows from a foreign realm, Amtrak could do something to make money hand over fist by playing up---although I'm not sure how---the fact that trains are somewhat less vulnerable to off-course diversion and subsequent re-employment as manned maneuvering cruise missiles. An article I found on the Acela via Lexis-Nexis indicated that Amtrak was aware of this marketing angle, but managed to, in the words of the writer (not Jayson Blair, though) squander the opportunity through some spectacularly inconvenient operational unavailabilities in terms of motive power. 4. I've been floored by the fact that the almighty airline industry in this country can't make money. The majority political party in Congress missed a meaningful opportunity to exercise some quid pro quo power when it (seemingly) failed to attach terms and conditions to the recent bailout of the airline industry. Although I am reluctant to see historic airlines (Pan Am, Eastern, TWA, and perhaps United) go under, I'm also chuckling at the possibility that revenge (for passenger rail) is a dish that is best served forty years (or so) cold. To horribly misquote Khan Noonien Singh, "Your share price is very cold...when you fail."5. Half a billion dollars doesn't even buy much more than half a second-generation (Theodore Roosevelt-class?) Nimitz-class atomic-powered aircraft carrier or an Arleigh Burke Aegis guided missile destroyer. It's chump change. Admittedly, I wouldn't mind defunding a few other Federal programs in order to increase the amount available for Amtrak. Meanwhile, I'd do my darnedest to increase money to NASA as well, so we could retire the surviving orbiters and replace them with something else, before we lose another one. And while we're at it, build the next generation transcontinental railroad, the next UP and to heck with the current UP licensing policy. Yep, we'll have the Utopia Planitia RR ready in time for the centennial of man's first landing on the moon...In closing, can someone explain to me why passenger service on the NEC by itself doesn't make money? We've only been building locomotives and running trains in this country for 170-odd years; surely to goodness it's been figured out how to do it cheaply. I know better than to expect huge profit returns, but with an essentially captive market and assuming a one or two-time heavy investment in infrastructure to move the rail system out of the 19th century, surely large government subsidies wouldn't be necessary. Of course, I'm largely uneducated as to the costs versus revenue as a historical pattern, so I could be just yammering.

____________________________________________________________________
Norfolk & Western’s Radford Division, Pulaski District: Who needs the Marias Pass?

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Only part of it was on the Website.Accoding to Gunn the 6 myths about Amtrash are:
1. Amtrash or passenger rail can be profitable
2. The private sector is dying to take over Amtrash's service
3. Long didtance trains are big money losers
4. Amtrash is a featherbed for labor
5. The NEC can be profitable. "The NEC barely covers it over the rail costs, but will always require public investment in its infrastructure."
6. There is a quick fix that will solve everything.From Railway Age, May 2003, Page 29
Kevin Arceneaux
DEFAULT IS FOR DUMMIES
Lone Wolf Activities Forum on www.3DTrains.com

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I and my wife happen to be fans of Amtrak. Since 1981, we always travel Amtrak from New York to Las Vegas (nowdays, since Amtrak stopped direct passenger service to Las Vegas, several years ago, and instead, either bus passengers who want to go to Las Vegas, from Needles, Cal. or Los Angeles, Cal. to Las Vegas) and back. And once a year to Florida (traveling every other year after Labor Day, to Las Vegas, and then to Florida. I Can tell you this, during the times when we travel, the only times that the train is not sold out, is during the winter month. (We travel to Las Vegas every year between February and Mid March.) The service has generally been good when we travel. Lateness of Arrival on trips of that distance has been good, most times within 45 minutes or so. On a Few occasions, we have been four hours or so late. The only one of the trains that we generally seem to have a major problem with is the Sunset Limited, which have gotten us to our destination as much as 15 hours late. Why they cannot improve the service on this line is beyond me. However, now that I think about it, of the times that we took the Sunset Limited from Los Angeles to Orlando, the train never left the terminal in Los Angeles earlier than 3 hours late. But as Far as The Lake Shore Limited from New York to Chicago and back, that one has been late only 3 or 4 times during my travel on it over a period of 20 years, or so. The Southwest Chief, from Chicago to Los Angeles, during the times that I have travled it during the course of the last seven years or so has been late only twice, as a matter of fact, it is usually 45 minutes to 1 hour early. The other Train that we took during the time when Amtrak stop in Las Vegas was the Desert Wind. After several years of being one half hour to 1 hour late, the arrival time grew later and later. They finally stopped service on that run. Thanks for letting me have my say on Amtrak. I will finish with this:1: The only time in the history of American Railroading that passenger service was profitable, was during World War II, when they were used to move military personnel around. All forms of transportation in America is subsidized by the government. Even, the car or truck that we routinely use. If the government did not subsidized them, only the well off could afford them. The subsidy that Amtrak receive as compared to the other form of transportation in America, is but a drop in the bucket. One other thing I wish to add to this, is, that traveling on Amtrak is not cheap. Last year trip from New York to Las Vegas, and from Vegas to Florida cost me and my wife, with economy sleeping accommodations $2,863.00 with an seniors discount. This year with the reduction of prices, as of this writing the fare is $1,882.00.
Robert

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Robert:I to have traveled on Amtrak every year for the last 5 years.Trips:
Sunset - Orlando to Tucson.. 8 hrs late because of bad track in Texas
Sunset - Orlando to L.A... 1/2 hr early.
Zephyr - Chicago to San Fran (Emeryville)..On time
Chief - LA. to Chicago.. 20 min early
Empire - Chicago to Seattle.. 10 min. late
Coast Starlite - Seattle to L.A... On TimeIn 2004 I'm hoping to travel across Canada if its still running.For me the ultimate trip would be Miami (I live in Florida) to New York. New York to Seattle. Seattle to L.A. L.A. back to Maimi.I always reserve a sleeping compartment and twice I had to change my plans because no compartments were available. On most of my trips the train has been full, both in coach and sleeping. It amazes me that with most of the cross-country trains being almost full they loose money. Oh well. economics was never my best subject in college.I have always found the food service excellent (compared with the bag lunch I got the last time I flew) and the sleeping car attendents very helpful and courteous. I don't care if I ever fly again. I joke with people that the only time I fly is to fly somewhat to catch a train to go somewhere else.You are correct in that its not cheap. But for me I'll gladly pay the price to be able to sit back, relax, have a nice drink and watch the country roll by. In my travels I have seen things I would never see from the air and most times not even by car.
Just my two cents.AMTRAK FOREVER.

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I dunno, i never been on an Amtrak train yet, but will be when i come to the USA next year i like the P42's - i think they look much better and sound alot better than F40's (Im VERY GE Bias arnt i??)Cheers
Mike"What would you do if I sung out of tune? Would you stand up and walk out on me? Lend me your ears and I'll sing you a song, and I'll try not to sing out of key, oh - i get by with a lil help from my friends....." (The Beattles)17 year old train fan from Perth West Australia.

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Well, i'd still rather have an F40 on the point than anything else But, except for the F59PHIs on the west coast, the only other road diesels Amtrak runs anymore are the Genesis P40/P42, and the "former Pepsi Cans" P32-8BWH.------ BUZZ ------

-- Power For You --

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And from talking to the runners in this neck of the woods you would get a revolt if you brought the screamers back.....
I've been told that even the RP39/40s are better riding and much quieter.... VRE (which is crewed out of the Amtrak IVY Crew Base) runs 2 F40s (and recently leased 1 more for a month. #400, while some of their equipment (The F59PHIs they lease from Sounder) were down for maintenance (again - cabs are comfortable and they are very smooth riding - reliability is a whole 'nother story) and the local crews are all Foamers like us and willing to talk trains at the drop of a hat....
The current story I heard was that VRE got to use a P40 for one day when one of the F59s Coaked on the road.... The urban myth among the VRE crews was that it did very well and don't worry about the "slow loading scenario".... It just didn't apply to a 5 car double decker commuter train since there is so much surplus power (over a 1kHP more) than the F59s/F40s and the STE is higher even than the RP30s/40s which are regeared freight engines.....
Since VRE is fishing for new equipment and funding to get it to meet exponential growth it will be interesting to see what they wind up with in 5 years....Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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Me and my dad broke down on a Metrolink being pulled by a PHI and we had to be pushed home by a PH It was quite a site getting off and seeing a two Metrolinks hooked together going through the canyon as they made it to the last stop. ( the road follows the track so we pretty much followed it after we got off )My website for MSTS Pic's www.msnusers.com/shanestrains

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Especially on toast....Oh you mean the rail company. I like the red, blue and silver paint scheme.

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Yup, I'm a fan of Amtrak. I think they do a pretty decent job with the resources they have and, having to deal with freight railroads who seem to be completely incapable of operating anything under the farthest constraint of something called a schedule. I do find it annoying when crews vent their frustrations on paying customers and find it counterproductive, but I do also empathize with their predicament.Thousands of highway vehicles travel less than a second apart at highway speeds and you can still schedule how long it takes to go from A to B usually within a couple of minutes, Hundreds of aircraft takeoff and land less than a minute apart and manage to maintain decent scheduling discipline, yet railroad operators get apoplectic when 2 trains are less than 15 minutes apart on the same track and think schedules are evil. A mile of track without a train on it ain't makin' anybody any money. It would be humorous if it wasn't so pathetic that a CZ can leave Salt Lake City (westbound) or Reno (eastbound) on or ahead of schedule and be hours late arriving at the opposite point. Folks, there ain't nutin' inbetween. Yet it's happened every time I've ridden and the crews tell me it's the rule, not the exception. And UP whines about lack of capacity even as they are tearing out double track and sidings and own both the SP and WP RoW.For the total dollars spent and social costs it's actually pretty efficient transportation. Probably more efficient per dollar than any other mode of transporation. Richard

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Yes, I am a fan of Amtrak. I have ridden it several times over the years to California, going a different route each time. Also, whenever I visit my son in Williston,ND I ride the Empire Builder. It is the only means of ground transportation available in that part of the country.

Jay

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