Union Pacific Logo usage statement

LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-03 AT 01:48 AM (EDT)

This is a statement i got from Brenda Mainwaring of Corporate relations at the Union Pacific Railroad. She seems very cooperative and general liscencing for freeware repainters and payware. Below is a statement she sent me to clear up UP's regaurd on particularly Train-Sim matters.
"Union Pacific has implemented a licensing program to monitor and regulate use of trademarks of the constituent and historic railroads that comprise the modern Union Pacific. Anyone who wishes to use one of these trademarks in a train simulator program needs to request permission in the form of a licensee application. For hobbyists who are not affiliated with software manufacturers or distributors and who distribute their product as freeware, there will be no fee associated with the licensing contract. Hobbyists may continue to use Union Pacific trademarks for their personal use, but any public distribution of a Union Pacific trademark must be approved in advance by Union Pacific. Licensee applications for model railroaders can
be found on the Union Pacific website at www.up.com. Click on "general
public" then "corporate information" then "UP licensing program" to
download a PDF-format file."Any questions should be directed to "brendamainwaring@up.com
It should be noted that posting of repaints you have done and photos IS permitted.if you want to mail by USPS the application, send it to the following address.
Brenda Mainwaring
Director, Corporate Relations
Union Pacific Railroad
1416 Dodge Street, Room 801
Omaha, NE 68179Fill out the application to the best of your ability. Most of us here who paint UP stuff do it for free and we are not a corporation. It may be of merit to e-mail Brenda telling her you are a hobbyist who does freeware repaints and also put that somewhere on the application. This will tell her that you are not making money and that you are not a corporation selling UP products. Also if you get confused on any part of the application e-mail brenda. She is very nice and will answer any questions you may have, she has already been plenty helpfull to me Here is the fax number if you want to fax in the application
(402)271-6515
A personal note on this : (added June 8, 2003)
i looked in the news archives at the UP, and they started the liscensing program in December of last year (2002).
http://www.uprr.com/notes/corpcomm/2002/021216_licensing.shtml\Many UP and affiliated items have been uploaded to the File Library since then with no one getting in trouble. I do not think anyone here has anything to worry about. I will still fill out a liscense application, but there is nothing to worry about. Many UP and affilaited railroad items have been uploaded here, with no one being prosocuted to my knowlegde. Continue to upload these items. Thier liscense program has loopholes, as they do not seem to check for non-liscensed users of thier logo because it does not involve any money. Many websites and places are still not liscensed (and most of them probably won't). Freeware tends to go un-noticed, and i do not think worrying about it will matter, as they really do not thend to care about people using thier logos if it doesn't make them money. At least this is what at least it looks like from my perspective. Continue to upload UP and affiliated railroad repaints. all railroads have been uploaded in the last month and nothing has occurred. If you feel uncomfortable doing this out of fear of getting in trouble, you do not have to upload. I will be offically liscensed more than likely and if you have repaints you can give my name in the readme saying that it is liscensed and permission was given to use the logo. I have not been liscensed as of yet, but repainting and uploading UP equipment should not be of worry or concern.Hauling America one pixel at a time
Bill Hemb; train sim repainter http://www.cascadenscale.org/Evergreen/tsdm.htm

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RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, FireDragonLightning, Jun-05-03, 04:28 PM, (1) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, smp11512, Jun-05-03, 05:08 PM, (2) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, TexasWestern70Mac, Jun-05-03, 05:12 PM, (3) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, Boilerbuster, Jun-05-03, 05:44 PM, (4) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, Magick_maker, Jun-07-03, 10:24 AM, (40) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, Boilerbuster, Jun-07-03, 10:59 AM, (41) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, CGW409, Jun-07-03, 01:05 PM, (42) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, Boilerbuster, Jun-07-03, 04:47 PM, (43) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, CGW409, Jun-08-03, 00:07 AM, (44) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, smp11512, Jun-05-03, 05:54 PM, (5) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, GrizzlyBear, Jun-05-03, 06:44 PM, (6) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, crow357, Jun-05-03, 07:04 PM, (7) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, smp11512, Jun-05-03, 07:05 PM, (8) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, ACRHumanResources, Jun-05-03, 08:06 PM, (9) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, xlspecial261, Jun-05-03, 08:11 PM, (10) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, NW_611, Jun-06-03, 00:17 AM, (17) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, ACRHumanResources, Jun-06-03, 06:56 AM, (22) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, GrizzlyBear, Jun-05-03, 09:17 PM, (11) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, smp11512, Jun-05-03, 09:22 PM, (12) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, JonN, Jun-05-03, 11:01 PM, (13) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, Boilerbuster, Jun-05-03, 11:47 PM, (14) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, McCloud_River_John, Jun-05-03, 11:53 PM, (15) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, TexasWestern70Mac, Jun-06-03, 00:00 AM, (16) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, McCloud_River_John, Jun-06-03, 02:17 PM, (26) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, TexasWestern70Mac, Jun-06-03, 02:48 PM, (27) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, dyvach, Jun-10-03, 06:44 AM, (57) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, muskokaandtahoe, Jun-06-03, 00:18 AM, (18) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, IcyFire, Jun-06-03, 00:27 AM, (19) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, clashley, Jun-06-03, 01:46 AM, (21) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, CGW409, Jun-06-03, 06:46 PM, (35) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, NW_611, Jun-06-03, 09:26 PM, (36) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, smp11512, Jun-06-03, 00:35 AM, (20) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, sniper297, Jun-06-03, 12:48 PM, (23) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, Boilerbuster, Jun-06-03, 01:19 PM, (24) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, muskokaandtahoe, Jun-06-03, 02:08 PM, (25) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, Boilerbuster, Jun-06-03, 03:17 PM, (28) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, chucksc, Jun-06-03, 04:19 PM, (29) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, deejay1020, Jun-06-03, 04:46 PM, (30) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, chucksc, Jun-09-03, 08:36 AM, (55) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, stationmaster, Jun-06-03, 04:59 PM, (31) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, stationmaster, Jun-06-03, 05:14 PM, (32) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, GrizzlyBear, Jun-06-03, 06:08 PM, (34) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, metraup, Jun-06-03, 05:57 PM, (33) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, sniper297, Jun-06-03, 10:29 PM, (37) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, TexasWestern70Mac, Jun-06-03, 11:15 PM, (38) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, Boilerbuster, Jun-06-03, 11:23 PM, (39) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, BN_9402, Jun-08-03, 01:38 AM, (46) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, TexasWestern70Mac, Jun-08-03, 01:45 AM, (47) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, BN_9402, Jun-08-03, 01:57 AM, (48) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, TexasWestern70Mac, Jun-08-03, 02:48 AM, (50) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, sniper297, Jun-08-03, 11:00 AM, (51) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, Boilerbuster, Jun-08-03, 12:29 PM, (52) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, CGW409, Jun-08-03, 03:03 PM, (53) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, TexasWestern70Mac, Jun-08-03, 03:08 PM, (54) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, John 136 6000 GO, Jun-14-03, 03:17 AM, (63) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, CGW409, Jun-14-03, 12:28 PM, (64) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, BN_9402, Jun-09-03, 10:04 PM, (56) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, bray235, Jun-10-03, 01:11 PM, (58) BNSF Copyrights...., Macster, Jun-10-03, 02:48 PM, (59) RE: BNSF Copyrights...., bray235, Jun-10-03, 03:59 PM, (60) RE: BNSF Copyrights...., CGW409, Jun-10-03, 06:21 PM, (61) RE: BNSF Copyrights...., BN_9402, Jun-10-03, 09:32 PM, (62) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, jonathanmlewis, Jun-18-03, 03:33 PM, (65) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, dadbill, Jun-18-03, 07:27 PM, (66) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, MSG Redleg, Jun-25-03, 09:15 AM, (67) RE: Union Pacific Logo usage statement, dadbill, Jun-25-03, 10:53 PM, (68)

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So is it possible for someone to make one of the 2002 Olympic railcars now? Jay http://www.freewebs.com/peterbiltsrule Site now with new Message Board!

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I was going to ask the same but I think that the Torch car and the locos and any other thing that has to do with the Olympics is held under license by The Olympics not by Union Pacific . And if it is by UP then yes we can do them and just not sell them My website for MSTS Pic's www.msnusers.com/shanestrains

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I'll contact brenda about that, she may be able to get permission from the USOC to let a freeware version of ther trainset be made. I'll talk to her about it on the weekendHauling America one pixel at a time
Bill Hemb; train sim repainter http://www.cascadenscale.org/Evergreen/tsdm.htm

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Thats the best news I have herd since I got train sim
I am a huge fan of The Union Pacific and hope that means that we will see more UP Downloads in the future. Right now I have most of what is available to download in UP and I have to admit its there you just have to look for it. I have about 30 differant Box cars and various other Union Pacific Rolling stock I use in about 75% of all the Consists that I make. My favorite is to make with Each UP locomotive is a one of each where I take one of each of my UP rolling stock and make a train of it
at the Bottom is an example of one of my Union Pacific Train Sets with the UP Mountian Don Pottorff
Long Live The Steam

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http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/User_files/3edfb9b069953068.jpg

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Just thought you'd like to know. Until the early 40's, UP cabooses were actually red, even the type you have there. They changed to yellow around that time.

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I didnt know but I didnt find a any other Caboose that I liked and this one was the best one at the time that I downloaded it but thanks for the info on that I will start looking for a red one. however I didnt design that train to be historicaly accurate it was just to parade all my UP stuff around and since then that train has grown to include almost 30 differant pieces of rolling stock so that picture is of a train that nolonger exists in my consist folder, however it soon will get to the point that the mountian will nolonger be sufficent to pull it alone and I may have to add a Helper.... most likely I will add a F-7 B unit to hide it easer within the consist
or maby even Double head with it wich I have done before but then one of each dont applyDon Pottorff
Long Live the Steam

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Don
If you check MR from around Dec 02 there were several ads for Minitrix's HO scale Bigboy including ads for rolling stock to go with the Bigboy one was the UP hack.
It would be Mineral red(read boxcar) with yellow Union Pacfic lettering and no sheildGary S

"Some say this country's just out for a fight. After 9/11 man I'd have to say thats right"
"Have You Forgotten"
Darryl Worley

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what is MR

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-03 AT 00:08 AM (EDT)

Model Railroader magazine,though I actualy saw the add in the current Railroad Model Craftsman todayGary S

"Some say this country's just out for a fight. After 9/11 man I'd have to say thats right"
"Have You Forgotten"
Darryl Worley

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>I'll contact brenda about that, she may be able to get
>permission from the USOC to let a freeware version of ther
>trainset be made. I'll talk to her about it on the weekend
>
>
>
>Hauling America one pixel at a time
>
>
>Bill Hemb; train sim repainter
>http://www.cascadenscale.org/Evergreen/tsdm.htm YEAH !!!!
My website for MSTS Pic's www.msnusers.com/shanestrains

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Hmmmmm....... This has been discussed many times before, and I still think UP is all wet on this, not to mention barking up the wrong tree. Some questions:1. Is a digital model a form of artistic expression? If it is, is it not protected by the First Amendment? 2. How come guys go to model train swaps and sell UP locos, cars, etc. that they have painted themselves? Are they licensed by UP to do so? (yea, right) Is painting a scale model a form of artistic expression protected by the First Amendment?3. How come you can take pictures of UP trains, publish them in a book, and sell the book WITHOUT UP's permission? In fact, if UP wanted to use your photos they would have to obtain YOUR permission to do so. This is because the photos are YOUR intellectual property, despite the fact UP's logo appears in them.4. Regarding the historical roads (fallen flags) that were absorbed into the bloated UP system, is there not a law regarding obsolete, no longer used trademarks? I think there is. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I understand UP's need to control there tradmark, as well as there right to not have it used in a slanderous, defamatory way. But we're not talking about producing cheap coffee mugs with a UP logo on them, then selling them for 10 bucks a pop. We're talking about people creating a digital image, nothing more than a picture in reality, and giving it away. Quite frankly, I find it hysterically funny that UP actually has a coporate beaurocrat waiting to "accept applications" from people who want to paint a digital model of a steam or antique diesel engine that fell to the scrapper's torch 50 years ago. It's almost as bad as the freaking government! Just my $0.02.GrizzlyWARNING! UNLICENSED TRAIN GIFS OF OBSOLETE UP LOCOS TO FOLLOW!

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Dittos Grizzly. What other RR's are so anal about their logo?

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>WARNING! UNLICENSED TRAIN GIFS OF OBSOLETE UP LOCOS TO FOLLOW!>Ha Ha LOL I agree with youMy website for MSTS Pic's www.msnusers.com/shanestrains

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>4. Regarding the historical roads (fallen flags) that were
>absorbed into the bloated UP system, is there not a law
>regarding obsolete, no longer used trademarks? I think there
>is. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Yes, there is. A corporation/company who has a license on a trademark and does NOT intend to use it, and does NOT notify the government of such thereby forfeits their right to sue anyone who uses (etc.) that said trademark. At least, that's what I was taught when I went to NYU...Stuart D. Guberman
Chief Operations Officer
Atlantic Coastal Railway
http://www.atlanticrail.com
P32 & Electric MU Engineer
MTA Metro North Railroad
http://www.mta.info/mnr

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UP realizes this and has repainted some cars and affixed the old logos so as to not forfeit their rights to them.I saw one a while back with 4 or 5 logos on it.Todd

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I'd have to get my IP book out and plow through it, but the Los Angeles Dodgers lost a suit like this against a restaurant in Brooklyn dubbed "The Brooklyn Dodger" that used a lot of Brooklyn-era Dodger motifs and so forth. I think the point, like you said, is that they can't "warehouse" prior marks, and that's what I'd allege in defending a freeware painter, but I can't remember if the UP have to notify the Patent & Trademark Office.The following poster hit my next point, i.e. usage in trade. It has to be something significant, if memory serves---wasn't paying too close attention in class that day---and I'm not sure the occasional boxcar logo is enough. If I was Norfolk Southern's IP man (yuck) and the NS wanted to keep tight rein on its predecessor 'roads, I'd tell David R. Goode et al to paint some of those hordes of Dash Nines or SD70s in Wabash, Southern, Nickel Plate, and Virginian schemes (with "Norfolk Southern" stuck somewhere visible but inconspicuous) and run the heck out of 'em up and down the rails to get the use out in the public eye. Sending out stationery with the respective logos on it in addition to the NS logo and name wouldn't be a bad idea either. For whatever reason, I find it hard to defend in my own mind (and absent law or precedent) any restrictions on a fallen flag's use (excepting Conrail, which apparently still exists in some form or fashion, and the Penn Central up until recently) by the train simulator community. I ought to quiz my IP professor about this and see what he says.'course, I'll never be an IP lawyer unless things go very bad and I find myself incapable of even pursuing a career as a gonzo journalist. That means that none of you people out there ought to rely on my advice ---since I'm not a degree-holding, licensed chap yet---so...I'm not exactly sure why this is in here, but it is. Selah, to quote HST.

____________________________________________________________________
Norfolk & Western’s Radford Division, Pulaski District: Who needs the Marias Pass?

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>if the UP have to notify the Patent & Trademark Office. They would, otherwise the logos become "public domain".>For whatever reason, I find it hard to defend in my own mind
>(and absent law or precedent) any restrictions on a fallen
>flag's use (excepting Conrail, which apparently still exists
>in some form or fashion, and the Penn Central up until
>recently) by the train simulator community. I ought to quiz
>my IP professor about this and see what he says. Again, unless it's been annexed by another RR (i.e.: WP by UP), and if the said RR doesn't notify the T&P office, after a given period of time (I don't know if off the top of my head myself), it's public domain.I can tell you that certain companies protect their ™s and (R)'s VERY closely. Xerox is yet another one who will prosecute in a heartbeat. Why? Because if "the trademarked name becomes 'common vernacular', it becomes PUBLIC DOMAIN." Interesting, isn't it?Stuart D. Guberman
Chief Operations Officer
Atlantic Coastal Railway
http://www.atlanticrail.com
P32 & Electric MU Engineer
MTA Metro North Railroad
http://www.mta.info/mnr

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Gotta remember too, guys, that these are the same folks who didn't want Train Simulator to ever be made in the first place, because they thought us train-simmers would get crazy and steal one of their locos. That's how out of touch with reality some of them really are. Did you ever wonder what you would do with a stolen UP loco? Hide it in your garage or basement? Sell it on e-bay? What a joke.GrizzlyWARNING! UNLICENSED TRAIN GIFS OF OBSOLETE UP EQUIPMENT TO FOLLOW!

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Go get it repainted so that the cops don't recognize that it is the 500,000 ton Locomotive that you stold that way you can drive it arround town without seeming out of place My website for MSTS Pic's www.msnusers.com/shanestrains

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How would anyone steal those locos anyway? I thought the reverser handles were supposed to be removed from the control stands when the locomotives were left unattended.Jonathan Nikiforovs.
Milepost 180, CP Belleville Sub.

Repainter for Yonder Locomotive Works.

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hay didnt I see that on Cops once he was driving it down the freeway... no wait that was an army tank

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Christ Sakes! UP is getting almost as bad as UPS!

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-06-03 AT 00:07 AM (EDT)

I do agree, but at least they are being cooperative about it. I tried to get persmission 6 months ago to use the olympics logo and the b**ch lady at the USOC said no. At least they say yes. freeware repainters do not have to pay a royalty. i have a feeling once 1000 liscense applications get sent in by repainters, they may rethink thier freeware uses of the logo. also i have noticed many UP affielaited railroad repaints in the file library recently. i do not think UP monitors the freeware we upload here, or the CNW and sp repaints i saw that were uploaded about two weeks ago are still there so, do not worry. I am applying to be an offically liscensed releaser of freeware repaints that bear UP affiliated logos. I may handle work to upload for those that do not wish to apply for a freeware liscense if i get liscensed, which i more than likely will. Brenda is a very nice woman, and takes care of the applications personally.Hauling America one pixel at a time
Bill Hemb; train sim repainter http://www.cascadenscale.org/Evergreen/tsdm.htm

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Bill, you keep up the good work, just don't get burn't oout on use. Have you looked at that new GP35 yet? Probably would look real good in Cascade Green

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Well i am not. Brenda of the UP has been very cooperative with me on the matter. People complain about the UP's staturt on thier logos, but that isn't going to change anything, so i would rather do it legit, than get in trouble for releasing the Southern Pacific Daylight or CNW 400 without permission(liscense). People here are also taking what the UP said WAY out of context IMO. i also said that photos, repaints and gifs can be posted on the forums as much as you's like. I don't think the UP monitors us here, cause many logos UP controls have been uploaded recently and not removed. I think people here get too worried, but i would still rather be safe than sorry. That and them being so cooperative has made me hate them less for killing the railroads they now trademark. Sounds kinda odd but the UP has been cooperative very much so with me whilst others such as the USOC have not even come close to being that at all.
Hauling America one pixel at a time
Bill Hemb; train sim repainter http://www.cascadenscale.org/Evergreen/tsdm.htm

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1. Is a digital model a form of artistic expression? If it is, is it not protected by the First Amendment?Even if it was, the rule limiting actions of the _U.S Congress_ has no relevance to how some private company manages their property...
Is painting a scale model a form of artistic expression protected by the First Amendment?It can be argued when those models are made for the purpose of being sold, then it's not really 'artistic expression' but simple attempt to cash on someone else's corporate image/intellectual property. And even if it is 'artistic expression', see above.
3. How come you can take pictures of UP trains, publish them in a book, and sell the book WITHOUT UP's permission?Are there actually such books on the market? That is, ones which you are _absolutely sure_ were published without the company's permission.
In fact, if UP wanted to use your photos they would have to obtain YOUR permission to do so. This is because the photos are YOUR intellectual property, despite the fact UP's logo appears in them.However by your own logic, they could simply take a photo of your photo, and then use it freely without your permission -- after all, the photo they took is THEIR intellectual property, and the fact it's focused on someone else's intellectual property is irrelevant.. right? This issue is more complex than you make it sound... some brief rundown on it can be found here:http://www.pdn-pix.com/businessresources/modelrelease.html

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Yeah, and after their lawyers intimidate the cr*p outta every penny-ante decal maker, get the 3% of larger mfgrs factory price (that translates to a 9-12% increase in the retail price) they'll probably turn their attention to trying to establish rights to the letter U and the letter P, demanding everybody pay when they use those letters.And you know what? some dummies will sign up.Folks, what's happening here is UP is attempting to protect trademarks that with a few exceptions have never been protected in the 70 odd years that model railroad products bearing those names and marks have been produced. Anybody with an ounce of legal sense can understand that the failure to protect is tantamount to releasing into the public domain: a.k.a. Freeware.I can respect UP's desire to prevent any transportation firm from use of these marks, but folks, we're talking toys here. And art. And coffee cups, pins, and hats, all of which are marketed by and for the people most likely to respect almost everything about the railroad being represented. How dumb can they get?Nope, they listen to some bonehead lawyer.Well, just imagine this courtroom scene:
Q: Would you please describe what you see on page 14 of this July 1933 issue of Model Railroader?
A: An ad.
Q: And does the ad bear a marking on you claim to have trademarked?
A: Yes.
Q: Tell the court what steps the railroad took when this ad was published in July 1933.
A: Ummm. I don't know. It was for some other railroad then.
Q: Shall we look at page 17 of the August 1933 issue now?Dave Nelson
Artwork bearing the herald of a railroad I respected and admired: Aug 1950

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-06-03 AT 00:27 AM (EDT)

hey whats with that panda anyway? Is there any significants to it holding that WP sign or what?, I'm just curiousEDIT: duh.. typo

Shawn Kenselaar, shawnssk@yahoo.com
Screen Shot Forum Mod; Repainter for TKW & YLW
The NYO&W is Gone, But never forgotten!!!

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The panda is a character from a Japanese cartoon called Ranma 1/2, which is one of the funnier things I've ever seen. The story behind Ranma 1/2 revolves a boy and his father who train at a martial arts ground in China and each fall into a cursed spring. The curse causes Ranma (the son) to turn into a girl whenever he is splashed with cold water, and Genma (the father) to turn into a panda whenever he is splashed with cold water (hot water reverses the effect). In panda "mode," Genma is mute and communicates by holding a sign with various messages written upon it.That, of course, is a gross simplification of the series, but I find it amusing nonetheless.
Cameron Lashley,
columbusrr@trainweb.orgTrainArtisan associate
http://www.trainartisan.com/

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Cameron
Ok, by my count that makes at least 3 otaku counting myself on the board.
To all
In regards to the freeware licencing, if you wish to apply fine,just bear in mind you are asking UP for permission to express your first amendment rights of artistic expression and if permission can be granted it can also be denied.
Pray some bean counter doesn't look at this and decide that to execute said right a small nominal fee will be needed for "processing".Gary S

"Some say this country's just out for a fight. After 9/11 man I'd have to say thats right"
"Have You Forgotten"
Darryl Worley

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Make that four. I'm big on several of the Mobile Suit Gundam series---sieg Zeon and all that---plus a couple of the various Macross series. Gotta love giant robots, future wars, impossible technology, and lots of cartoon violence.This whole thread's rather interesting---if I were more scholastically inclined, I bet a law review article's stirring about.

____________________________________________________________________
Norfolk & Western’s Radford Division, Pulaski District: Who needs the Marias Pass?

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>Yeah, and after their lawyers intimidate the cr*p outta
>every penny-ante decal maker, get the 3% of larger mfgrs
>factory price (that translates to a 9-12% increase in the
>retail price) they'll probably turn their attention to
>trying to establish rights to the letter U and the letter P,
>demanding everybody pay when they use those letters.
>
>And you know what? some dummies will sign up.
>
>Folks, what's happening here is UP is attempting to protect
>trademarks that with a few exceptions have never been
>protected in the 70 odd years that model railroad products
>bearing those names and marks have been produced. Anybody
>with an ounce of legal sense can understand that the failure
>to protect is tantamount to releasing into the public
>domain: a.k.a. Freeware.
>
>I can respect UP's desire to prevent any transportation firm
>from use of these marks, but folks, we're talking toys here.
> And art. And coffee cups, pins, and hats, all of which are
>marketed by and for the people most likely to respect almost
>everything about the railroad being represented. How dumb
>can they get?
>
>Nope, they listen to some bonehead lawyer.
>
>Well, just imagine this courtroom scene:
>Q: Would you please describe what you see on page 14 of this
>July 1933 issue of Model Railroader?
>A: An ad.
>Q: And does the ad bear a marking on you claim to have
>trademarked?
>A: Yes.
>Q: Tell the court what steps the railroad took when this ad
>was published in July 1933.
>A: Ummm. I don't know. It was for some other railroad then.
>Q: Shall we look at page 17 of the August 1933 issue now?
>
>Dave Nelson
>Artwork bearing the herald of a railroad I respected and
>admired:
>
>
>
>
> Aug 1950
Roflmao
My website for MSTS Pic's www.msnusers.com/shanestrains

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Hmmm, well, seems to me the Chessie sleeping cat logo was extremely popular and made it's way onto a number of licensed products like coffee cups , pillows, dinner plates, you name it. Never heard of anyone painting that puppycat on something and giving it away for free.This strikes me as a totally different thing tho, somebody takes something I make and sells it or uses it in something for sale without consulting me first, I'm losing money cuz I should be getting a cut of the action. That's why arguments, negotiations, and lawsuits between railroads and model train manufacturers are so prevalent. When I was a kid any railroad was glad for the free advertising and publicity, but the MBAs decided that having the name and logo familiar to as many people as possible wasn't enough, they wanted a cut of the loot as well.I'm no lawyer, but in addition to what the Panda Bear said about the ludicrous idea of trying to enforce something like that for freeware, it strikes me that the first test of the validity of any lawsuit is that the plaintiff has to prove damages.

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maby there afraid that some of there shiping Contracts will be lost to us cause some will mistake us for the Real UP yours line
anyhow I would challeng them anyway how can they win against some freewere repainter when all we are doing like someone else stated that what train sim is is a picture on a computer screen and people take pictures of trains all the time and UP dosnt go after them.
its a stupid thing and it will all pass when BNSF buys UP out when and if that happinsDon Pottorff
Long Live the Steam

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> ...it strikes me that the first test of the validity of any lawsuit is that the plaintiff has to prove damages. Actually no. The first step is to claim the trademark. The second is to get everybody to buy into your claim. IMO, that's where UP is right now. My objection is back in step one: IMO the trademarks in question, with some exceptions perhaps, were not protected by the original railroads when they were used on such hobby items as toy or model trains, hats, pins, badges, etc. If that is true then the marks cannot be claimed today as for the usage I've listed, they're in public domain. Once there the cannot again be claimed as trademarks.Now, from what I understand, UP *has* been rather protective of it's own marks and may indeed have protected it properly even on the items I've cited. Okay, I can live with and repect that. But for them to assume that each and every predecessor railroad that they now own had also exercised a strong legal protection of trademarks on these items is, IMO, both laughable and offensive. This is why I cite as the obvious defense advertisements over the last 70 years. Each and every model, cup, pin design, badge, calendar, etc. from each and every railroad that was produced from 1930 to the present can be brought forward as an potential exhibit to determine what protective steps were taken at the time the model was produced by the railroad that also used that mark. If the U.P. answer is consistently "We don't know" or "none" a strong case can be made the mark has long ago passed into the public domain.Dave Nelson Aug 1950

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Then what is all the fuss about its like flightsim and I dont here any airlines complaining about the use of there logos why do the Rail Roads have to be so anal about it when the airlines could not care less. I dont see any of these issues over at flightsim and there are hundereds of repaints in each livery. never once has the major airlines complained or have tryed to attack the painters and modelers of aircraft and repaints of said aircraft.
its funny that most of the aircraft manufactures help in the making of models of there planes at no charge to those who even sell there models of the planes to the public.

Don Pottorff
Long Live the Steam

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-06-03 AT 04:22 PM (EDT)

Don that's not true....I believe it was either United or American did the same full court press a couple of years back....
After flogging off "Exclusive" modeling/painting rights to some bozo over in the UK IIRC.....Nels and some others could fill you in with the details but I believe it was lawyers and nasty letters and all....I just said screw them and kept all their stuff I already had...
I think the distributor who was trying to pull that fast one off was ridden out of town on a rail with a nice new coat of TAR and Feathers... But it took people who had were frequently fliers and executive club members writing to the Airline board and offering to fly some other way... before it was rescinded... In fact I think they tried to blame it on some over eager beaver down in legal or licensing or some where down there in the sub-basement...
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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American Airlines was the airline, Peter Tishma was the bozo.Regards,
Dan Zollner - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com

Pro Series Geeps

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>American Airlines was the airline, Peter Tishma was the
>bozo. You're right how could I ever forget....Papa Tango or was it Peter Tare????? LOL!
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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Apparently, the WP "Feather River" logo has been registered by Altamont Press. I can't find a registration for it by WP or by UP. I would not be surprised if UP ever bothered to check on a number of the logos they claim.Ron
http://www.railwaystation.com

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I thought about a UP license when they announced it, but found the application far too intrusive. They wanted way to much personal information that was not really relevant. An editorial on the subject can be found in the Model Railroad News:http://www.modelrailroadnews.com/pages/edFeb03.htmlRon
http://www.railwaystation.com

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Hey guys
I talked to a friend of mine last night who works part time at a large, famous model train store here in the Denver area (he works there on Saturdays so he can get his brass cravings satisfied at a discount). He's an older gentleman and had been in the model railroad hobby for a long time. According to him, railroads have traditionaly never registered their heralds, logos, fonts, etc. or "licensed" anything. They enjoyed the free public exposure, plus realized that the only people who would want items with Southern Pacific, Rio Grande, B&O, etc. plastered all over them were model railroaders, railfans, and other train lovers anyway. Sure as can be, I have a Denver & Rio Grande Western coffee mug right here on my desk that I'm looking at that has absolutely no registered trademark or copyright symbol on it anywhere. It seems it is only in very recent history, and basically totally isolated to UP, that this "licensing" thing has become an issue. I think the next time UP has to lay people off, they ought to start with lawyers, execs, and beaurocrats, not engineers, brakemen, and yard workers.GrizzlyWARNING! UNLICENSED TRAIN GIFS OF OBSOLETE UP EQUIPMENT TO FOLLOW!

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Let me get this strait,You can use their logo and sell it but you you must pay?You can use their logo but you must be licensed for free?You can use their logo without a license if you don't upload it?You can use their logo without a license if you upload it for free?Could they make it more clear? And what about routes, where the logo is only on other people's rolling stock that drive on it?Formost, what if you don't?Thanks!
METRAUP

Chicago-Geneva Metra Line

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Well, here's from Ron's MR article link:"Trademark Infringement?
You should know the law. It says that if someone has registered a trademark, logo, slogan or other representation of their company, you cannot use it for commercial purposes unless you license it from them."That's always been understood. "for COMMERCIAL purposes". Somebody with a law book can look up commercial, but I believe it means to make money. IMAO, Freeware, by definition, is not commercial, and is therefore exempt.

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-06-03 AT 11:17 PM (EDT)

I think we should overwhelm them with these applications and maybe they will reconsider thier stance on freeware. Until then unfortunately, thier word stands, and doing it thier way is better than being taken to court for a repaint i did. American airlines did this about freeware, then retracted, due do many msfs repainter complaints Hauling America one pixel at a time
Bill Hemb; train sim repainter http://www.cascadenscale.org/Evergreen/tsdm.htm

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Some one tell me how to Repaint and tell me what to download to convert the files back and forth and I will do the repaints myself and upload them and I will take the blame lol I dont care if they send there lawyers after me anyway they can have the few pennies out of my pennie jar it still wouldnt make me change my repaints. I am not scared of them or there lawyers. it has never stopped me from doing repaints before and I did a repaint of a News chopper and even told the Channel and there pilot of that chopper of it... however I think they really dont care what happins on a Computer game but I did use there logo and everything else. I also have plans to do another repaint of that chopper For FS2002 now that a Bell 206L is available for it
By the way if the guy who made the SP&S 700 reads this Can I have your permission to do a repaint of your Locomotive in UP colors if I can figure it out or did you have plans to do soDon Pottorff
Long Live the Steam

here is a picture of that repaint I did of Air Tracker 7 out of Denver it can be found at Flightsim.com just use my name in a search and you will find it among my other repaints

Attachments

http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/User_files/3ee15a996671bef3.jpg

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Hey Bill, do we also have to apply for a license if we are creating a Union Pacific route? Also, I presume trainsimmers download the Model Railroad Manufacturing pdf file and not the non-profit or other applicant files.BTW, I noticed UP posted their 2003 locomotive roster and timetables in the General Public section instead of the Customer section. They must be having a change in heart now.Austin S.

http://milwmsts.netfirms.com/

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-03 AT 01:51 AM (EDT)

I would not think so. It is just trackage the trains ran on, and no logos are used. I think me posting her e-mail address (she said i could when she e-mailed me) that a flood of complaints from people is overwhelming her. who knows we may get these stupid (IMO) restrictions for freeware removed. I think many have probably e-mailed her complaining rather than asking about the liscensing.also i deleted the reply you saw above your bn9402, and put the topic in the main original topic for all to read.Hauling America one pixel at a time
Bill Hemb; train sim repainter http://www.cascadenscale.org/Evergreen/tsdm.htm

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Ok, thanks. I'll hold off on the app unless something else comes up (you never know when the UP laywers order Nels to delete all the UP stuff in the library).BTW, rumors have it BNSF may, and I stress, maybe going to a system like this in the future but I don't think it will go through. If they do (a big if), I'll see if I could do something like Hac does for the CP.Austin S.

http://milwmsts.netfirms.com/

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If other railroads follow suit, (which i hope they dont) that would effectively kill off the trainsim community expect for payware. geeze i hope that doesn't happen *crosses fingers*Hauling America one pixel at a time
Bill Hemb; train sim repainter http://www.cascadenscale.org/Evergreen/tsdm.htm

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You guys are still missing this."You should know the law. It says that if someone has registered a trademark, logo, slogan or other representation of their company, you cannot use it for commercial purposes unless you license it from them."COMMERCIAL purposes."Union Pacific Announces Licensing Program"Blah blah blah blah,"Under the new guidelines, Union Pacific will now require a licensing agreement for commercial or non-profit use"They can announce and require all they want, but if the law don't specifically say they have the right to restrict non-profit use, then their announcement and requirement are meaningless, since they have no legal validity. Like the one guy says, lawyers trying to intimidate, corporate lawyers do play poker, and they know how to bluff.So I got a new one now.ANNOUNCEMENTAs the god of coconuts, I now require tribute from all forum members.
From this day forward, no one is to post anything without my approval, and every time you download something from the file library, you must send me a dollar.There. Let's see how many gullible sheep knuckle under to that without questioning my legal right to require and restrict. What the hell happened to the revolutionary spirit in this country? Question authority, defy tyranny, and throw all their tea in the harbor.

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I will help throw the tea in the harbor but first I need to find a freewear program to do repaints I could care less cause I personaly dont like corperations anwyay I only like the spirit of what UP was at one time that is why I mostly run Steam Locomotives on Trainsim as I would if I had a Ho scale setup it would be exclusivly Steam locomotives and nothing else
Besides you should see my collection of UP steam Locomotives now
I have almost every one in the liburary and several othersDon Pottorff
Long Live the Steam

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Sniper
It's begining to sound like UP maybe awakening to the reality of the paperwork nightmare created by licencing non comercial(read Fair Use Doctrine)modelers, but if UP insists on this and wishes to force the issue they could be falling back on the Microsoft Doctrine(we're in the wrong but since we're bigger and have more lawyers....) maybe a legle defense fund or pro bono work by a train simmer of the lawyering trade,heck even a lawyer who's a flight simmer because if the railroads can snuff fair use we know that American Airlines was the first to try it and with the airlines hurting for cash they'd jump on Flightsim in a milisecondGary S

"Some say this country's just out for a fight. After 9/11 man I'd have to say thats right"
"Have You Forgotten"
Darryl Worley

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-03 AT 04:15 PM (EDT)

Hey Sniper, Maybe i'll upload my CNW 400 trainset then when it's done before i send that application in Throw in some Green and yellow tea, maybe then some harbor mist grey and amour yellow tea into the FL too .....like i said earlier in the topic post when i updated it. There is no need to worry about this, and continue to upload UP and affiliated railroad stuff into the FL. nothing has happened yet to anything up, cnw, sp, etc so far. And they enacted that liscensing agreement 7 months ago i will still apply for a liscense as it is still in affect for even freeware, so i personally would rather be safe than in court.Hauling America one pixel at a time
Bill Hemb; train sim repainter http://www.cascadenscale.org/Evergreen/tsdm.htm

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Just adding another few tea leaves or confusion (I'm not sure which).It seems to me that all the discussion I've been reading so far relates to U.S.A law. But this is an international hobby and an international forum relating to that international hobby. So how does the international aspect of things affect this discussion?If I, in Canada, paint a model (or repaint someone else's model) using an American railway's livery, logos, trademarks, etc, and distribute them, does that American railway have any way to go after me here in Canada? Would they have any grounds to do so? On a freeware model I'm not sure they could do much about me, and probably not on a payware (profit or non-profit) model either.So, perhaps we should all make models which are "foreign" to us?
John

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John
The general rule of thumb under the copyright Fair Use Doctrine has generaly been as long as you're not profiting(notable exceptions being music & film)it's cool of late however certain corporate entities(one associated with a mouse comes to mind)have been pushing hard to shut down fair use.Gary S

"Some say this country's just out for a fight. After 9/11 man I'd have to say thats right"
"Have You Forgotten"
Darryl Worley

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With Matt Rose in charge in Fort Worth, anything can happen. Right now he is overly concerned about fuel savings its enough to drive you nuts. Any power that sits over 2 hours should be shut down until needed, all engineers are to practice fuel-conservative runs system wide, etc. Rumor has it that all this came around when NS was announced as the US freight line in MSTS2 and BNSF decided that all the hype over MSTS1 was through and it was time to step up on this copyright stuff. Plain and simple, they are just greedy people in Fort Worthless and everywhere in America these days.We'll just have to see.Austin S.

http://milwmsts.netfirms.com/

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-10-03 AT 01:12 PM (EDT)

In the bigger picture of things, this is just another application of the DMCA.If you have a computer, and are connected to the internet, you might be passing/having/using/looking at/ yadda, yadda, yadda copyrighted material, there fore you are a pirate and must PAY!!!! Cold hard cash is preferred.I think everyone should apply for a license and show the power of paperwork (or was that "the pen"). Besides, this is the cheepist advertising they could get, one person on the payroll checking the apps. they should be paying the model makers.Bill

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Well, talking to a good friend in the upper ranks of BNSF, they are still working with Microsoft and 3rd Party developers very closely, though they don't like they're name being derailed for grins and giggles and "oohhh, that's cool" But you don't have to worry about BNSF copying the UP.

Brian E. Bundridge
Seattle, Wa

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And there you run into the 80/20 rule. While 80% will run M$TS as a simulator, the rest thinks its fun to crash and burn, no matter what game they play.For that matter how are they going to stop me from doing full throttle on a downhill tressel into a sharp right hand turn and have a vintage Lionel steamer leave the table and fly into the concret floor two feet below? okay, early childhood, but the engine still runs.Bill

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Bill
There's actually some rumor and such going about that certain "unnamed" railroads have requested that MSTS2 not allow derailments,if this turns out to be the case I'd say that means if you foul up you just get the"You've derailed" pop up with out the carnageGary S

"Some say this country's just out for a fight. After 9/11 man I'd have to say thats right"
"Have You Forgotten"
Darryl Worley

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>Well, talking to a good friend in the upper ranks of BNSF,
>they are still working with Microsoft and 3rd Party
>developers very closely, though they don't like they're name
>being derailed for grins and giggles and "oohhh, that's
>cool" But you don't have to worry about BNSF copying the UP. Ah, that's good. All the old heads I talk to in the Kansas Division headquarters spread all this bull anyway, which most of it is just plain made up (like BNSF purchasing 100 SD90MACs to replace the SD60s a few years ago). It is true that many railroads are trying to get M$ and whatnot to make the sims "derail proof". They are watching us too!
Austin S.

http://milwmsts.netfirms.com/

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So I can still make Rio Grande stuff...http://groups.msn.com/MSTSNarrowGauge

Jonathan Lewis
jonathanmlewis@msn.com

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Okay, well can we or can't we? What's the final word on this? Does UP have the power to restrict use of:
Missouri Pacific, Missouri, Kansas, Texas - KATY, Chicago & Eastern Illinois Railroad, Chicago and North Western, Western Pacific,
Southern Pacific, Denver and Rio Grande, St. Louis-Southwestern - Cotton Belt, Texas and Pacific, Alton & Southern, American Refrigerator Transit Company ??-Or are they just what Sniper is saying, declaring without real power?I personally would like to know since I am working on a SP project...Anyone got the final word on this? Sniper??Glad CSX doesn't do this...

db
Ceeanoh Shops

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"These restrictions do not apply to in-home model railroad hobbyists who create Union Pacific-branded equipment for personal use."The sentence above is a new item at UP's web page on licence and us of logos. Maybey they're getting the idea that hobbiest can make a difference in how the world sees them.

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Okay let's put a quick end to this right here, right now.
I contacted Brenda. There's No Way around it any of those logos used, you better get a licensing agreement. No sense in emailing Brenda, she's just going to requote you all the information on this webpage:
http://www.uprr.com/aboutup/licensing/
Just download the pdf, print it out, fill in all the information stating you are a 'virtual' modeling shop. Send it in.
********************************************************************
*The only way this does not apply to you is if you make up something
for your PERSONAL use - not to leave your computer or be posted on
the internet (train-sim.com, trainartisan.com, 3dtrains.com, etc)!
********************************************************************
Personally I'm asking for ALL the railroad logos listed so I only have to go through this ONCE.
CYA, Good Luck!
That's the last word.

db
Ceeanoh Shops

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