Stupid railroad questions

See that, Annabelle, I can be dumb too, I'm just not as bashful about it!"Everyone is ignorant, only in different areas" -Mark TwainOK, all you railroad employees past & present, plus anyone who's been in the cab, buncha stupid questions.1. In MSTS when 2 or more diesels are MUed together, the dynamic brakes work on all the engines from a single controller. The independent brakes do not, only the player engine gets independent brake, if you want to stop a 4 engine MU quickly you gotta use the trainbrake too. Is it like that in real life, or do all the brakes in the engines MUed together come on with independent brake application?2. Everyone knows long-long-short-long for grade crossings, is/was there a specific whistle signal for approaching a junction with another track that might not be under positive interlocking signal control? I'm thinking primarily of peddler freights on feeders, shortlines and branchlines here, but prior to telegraph & signals there musta been something other than just the clock even on the high iron.3. What's with the sound on the new MS/TA V1.2 SD40-2? It sounds like what you get in your headphones on military aircraft when you switch from DC power to the AC inverter, is that really what the inside of an SD40-2 cab sounds like? No diesel rumble or roar, only a faint whine from the traction motors? Wish my house was sound-insulated like that.4. "Three miles an hour is a coupling, four miles an hour is a collision." Good policy, but in MSTS the engines are set by default for a derail buffer force of 200kN, half of what the cars have, and when hitting an unloaded car at 4-5 mph that 250 ton loco jumps clean off the tracks. Has anyone actually SEEN a derailment in real life from hitting too hard while coupling, and if so what was the estimated speed?5. What is... Huh? Oh, okay. On advice of counsel I'm taking the fifth on the fifth.Anyway, whatever anyone's got on the first four questions, enquiring minds wanna know. Opinions, anecdotes, silly observations, pontification, prating, and (since this is my post!) flamewars are allowed.

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RE: Stupid railroad questions, annabelle, May-28-03, 03:13 PM, (1) RE: Stupid railroad questions, cyberjim2, May-28-03, 04:24 PM, (3) RE: Stupid railroad questions, felix_hasler, May-28-03, 07:05 PM, (7) RE: Stupid railroad questions, CSX_CW60AC_GregMarck, May-28-03, 04:20 PM, (2) RE: Stupid railroad questions, derekmorton, May-28-03, 05:28 PM, (4) RE: Stupid railroad questions, heffed, May-28-03, 06:51 PM, (5) RE: Stupid railroad questions, derekmorton, May-28-03, 07:02 PM, (6) RE: Stupid railroad questions, OTTODAD, May-28-03, 07:12 PM, (8) RE: Stupid railroad questions, derekmorton, May-28-03, 07:20 PM, (10) RE: Stupid railroad questions, heffed, May-28-03, 10:17 PM, (16) RE: Stupid railroad questions, PatchCrew, May-28-03, 07:29 PM, (11) RE: Stupid railroad questions, xlspecial261, May-28-03, 07:15 PM, (9) RE: Stupid railroad questions, rpicardi1, May-28-03, 07:52 PM, (12) RE: Stupid railroad questions, sniper297, May-28-03, 08:03 PM, (13) RE: Stupid railroad questions, Richard, May-28-03, 08:46 PM, (14) Whistles, Kentucky86, May-28-03, 09:20 PM, (15) RE: Stupid railroad questions, PatchCrew, May-28-03, 11:33 PM, (17) RE: Stupid railroad questions, Bluevoss, May-29-03, 10:57 AM, (18) RE: Stupid railroad questions, kro52, May-29-03, 12:05 PM, (19) RE: Stupid railroad questions, dcmorris, May-29-03, 03:30 PM, (20) RE: Stupid railroad questions, Newton Kid, May-31-03, 09:14 AM, (21) RE: Number 4, Magick_maker, May-31-03, 01:05 PM, (22) RE: Number 4, sniper297, May-31-03, 02:29 PM, (23)

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I simply can't believe you posted questions. I'm printing this out too and putting it on my bulletin board over my desktop. (To go with all of my disks with your name.)Thanks for making me feel better.Annabelle

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Well Sniper, regarding question 2, I'm not an engineer, but down here where I live in Texas. UP in my hometown uses the long, long, short, long whistle. If they're not to the crossing yet they start the sequence again, and even a 3rd time until they get across the crossing. The amount of sequences really depends on they're speed. I have no replies to the other questions as I do not know. I would agree on the coupling issue though. Jim

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There are no stupid questions, just stupid answers !My 2 bits to question #1As far as I know the three hoses on American locos are :
- Brake pipe : Brake pipe through the train
- Main reservoir pipe : Link between the main reservoirs of the locos
- Bail off (is this the correct term ??) independent brake of coupled locos
Following this snipers theory is correct : Independent brake only works on the first loco of a consist.In Europe (not considering GB !) it is slightly different as there used to be two brake pipes :
- Direct air : A slow reacting brake due to the fact that large amounts of air had to be moved/removed. Nevertheless you could regulate the air brake even on longer descents without exhausting the air brake. This brake is widely known as "Westinghouse direct".
- Indirect air : As an additional safety measure an indirect ( full pressure = no brake, no pressure = full brake) braking system without any regulation came into use.
Historically three developments occured :
- Westinhouse differential : A graduate attack / graduate release system (full pressure = no brake, no pressure = full brake). The sytem is exhaustible, no air losses can be compensated from the loco because the pressure of the brake cylinder is higher than the brake pipe. Large amounts of air are to be moved for attack/release of the brakes. This system was common because existing direct air brakes could be easily converterted as the pressures remained the same. It remains in use on some street car systems. Train handling of longer trains, I know it by myself, is not very easy.
- Indirect air brake, not graduate releasable : Except for emergency braking (= brake pipe broken) the brake pipe pressure is higher than the brake cylinder pressure, allowing to replace air losses through the train. Standard in US, due to a slow, but homogeneous reaction usable on long trains.
- Indirect air brake, graduate releasable : Same conditions as in US but due to shorter trains faster attack/release times and therefore easier train handling.Due to the fact of improved indirect air brakes (graduate attack, graduate release, different attack / release timing for passenger / freight trains) on main lines direct air was discontinued in the 1950's and only the indirect air pipe / hose remained. The connectors are painted red.
Later the direct air hose was removed.
In order to use pilot cars in push/pull consists a main reservoir pipe was added, the connectors had different colors, originaly green, later changed through Europe to white. Today on passenger trains the main reservoir pipe is mandatory (Air suspension, air operated doors, etc), occasionally it can be found on special freight consists too, like the Swedish/Norway ore trains to Narvik which require a powerfull, fast attak/fast release air brake.
At least in Switzerland a third, smaller hose was introduced in the 1960's as direct air to mu'ed locomotives, very helpfully for shunting. During dynamic/regenerative braking bailing off the air brake is done by a train wire in the mu cable.I hope this gives you some information about braking systems. If you are interested in more obscure braking systems just let me know....Felix

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>1. In MSTS when 2 or more diesels are MUed together, the
>dynamic brakes work on all the engines from a single
>controller. The independent brakes do not, only the player
>engine gets independent brake, if you want to stop a 4
>engine MU quickly you gotta use the trainbrake too. Is it
>like that in real life, or do all the brakes in the engines
>MUed together come on with independent brake application? I think that it works that way in real life too. But I'm not sure.Greg
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>1. In MSTS when 2 or more diesels are MUed together, the
>dynamic brakes work on all the engines from a single
>controller. The independent brakes do not,Can you be sure about that?> only the player
>engine gets independent brake, if you want to stop a 4
>engine MU quickly you gotta use the trainbrake too. Is it
>like that in real life, or do all the brakes in the engines
>MUed together come on with independent brake application? Only for engines that have like engine brakes, ie for sd40's can mu independent with other sd40's, not sure about other combinations.Derek

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>4. "Three miles an hour is a coupling, four miles an hour is
>a collision." Good policy, but in MSTS the engines are set
>by default for a derail buffer force of 200kN, half of what
>the cars have, and when hitting an unloaded car at 4-5 mph
>that 250 ton loco jumps clean off the tracks. Has anyone
>actually SEEN a derailment in real life from hitting too
>hard while coupling, and if so what was the estimated speed? My brother assures me that a 3mph coupling just doesn't happen in real life. Way too conservative.
-Jeff

Union Pacific is my drug.

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Any coupling over 3mph can cause damage to the freight withing the wagons, so I suspect it is not encouraged.From my own experience, 3mph is not required for sucessful coupling, the pins drop fine at 1 or 2.Derek

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Derek, do they use what we here in the U.K. call "Knuckle Couplers" on all trains in the States, Freight and Passenger Trains ?What about Australia ? What sort of Couplers are being used Downunder ? Could ask Frank Carver who is visiting me frequently, but he is in bed now ! Take Care, O t t o.

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>Derek, do they use what we here in the U.K. call "Knuckle
>Couplers" on all trains in the States, Freight and Passenger
>Trains ?
>
>What about Australia ? What sort of Couplers are being used
>Downunder ? Could ask Frank Carver who is visiting me
>frequently, but he is in bed now !
>
>Take Care, O t t o. we use knuckle couplers here as well.
Our loco's a locally made copies of US loco's.
I drive an sw600 and a gp7.
We cannot MU the engine brakes, as the sw600 has a direct air brake whereas the gp7 has a westinghouse engine brake.Derek

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>Any coupling over 3mph can cause damage to the freight
>withing the wagons, so I suspect it is not encouraged. Oh I'm sure it's not encouraged, but some are none too gentle. The broken knuckle every now and then is proof of that. -Jeff

Union Pacific is my drug.

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LAST EDITED ON May-28-03 AT 07:32 PM (EDT)

Edit: Sorry about the duplicate info as the post below was posted while I was composing mine.>Is it like that in real life, or do all the brakes in the engines MUed together come on with independent brake application?All units in the locomotive consist will apply and release the brakes when the Engineer uses the Independent Brake in the lead locomotive. That is the point of the 3 MU air hoses that are connected between locomotives. One hose is for application and release, another hose is for actuating (bail) and the other is for main reservoir pressure. And this is for ALL locomotives MU'ed together. Not some or just similar types.>Everyone knows long-long-short-long for grade crossings, is/was there a specific whistle signal for approaching a junction with another track that might not be under positive interlocking signal control?There are two types or interlockings at a place where two rail lines cross each other. Automatic and Manual. A Manual Interlocking would be in CTC territory and is controlled by the Dispatcher. An Automatic Interlocking would be used on branchlines, etc. and they have signals that are controlled by the presence of another train on the other rail line. There is a whole set rules in the General Code pertaining to Automatic Interlockings stating what to do in case of certain situations. As for uncontrolled interlockings, I have never seen one (I'm sure they exist or existed) and there is nothing in the current rulebook about them. >No diesel rumble or roar, only a faint whine from the traction motors?In a UP SD70M or a SD90MAC they are very quiet but a SD40? Forget it! And normally you do not hear traction motors. Sometimes on some locomotives at high speed you well hear a sound that is similar to hearing a semi trucks tires on the highway but that is the wheels rolling along the rails.>Has anyone actually SEEN a derailment in real life from hitting too hard while coupling, and if so what was the estimated speed?It depends on what hit what. I have seen two locomotives collide at 10 mph and didn't derail but I also have seen freight cars in a hump yard derail at 3 mph. And if the drawbars are crossed on freight cars I have seen them derail at 2 mph. It depends on the weight of each object (or the weight of a cut of cars or a train) hitting the other one.>My brother assures me that a 3mph coupling just doesn't happen in real life. Way too conservative.It all depends on the quality of the Engineer. With light engines only I regularly couple at less than 2 mph. With a train or cut of cars you better keep the coupling speed at 3 mph or less or you may just derail a freight car.PatchCrew
UP Engineer

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1-All locomotive brakes apply when you set the independant. The more locos in your consist the longer it takes for them to set and release as they are all supplied from the lead engine.You may have noticed that modern locomotives have three mu hoses on each side of the coupler. (You do not need to hook up both sides) The innermost hose is the main res line. This connects all the locomotives main reservoirs, allowing them all to supply air to the train. All air is supplied to the brake pipe through the controlling engine only however. The center hose is the A&R pipe. Application and release. This is your independant. Air is supplied through this line to the trailing locomotives to apply and release their independant brakes. The third line is the actuating pipe. Actuate is the "correct" term for bailing of your engine brakes. 2-The only junction I have seen like this had stop signs posted in all four directions. All trains have to stop and make sure the way is clear before proceeding. I have seen swinging gates in older photos but have no experience withthem.3-SD40-2's are fairly loud in the cab. You can definitely hear the prime mover. They do not sound the same inside as out however. It's kinda hard to explain the difference, but you don't hear the turbo nearly as much inside as out. You get the "lower" sounds for lack of a better term..4-As long as the coupling is on straight track, you generally won't derail even with a HARD hit. I've seen loaded bulkhead flats flex in the middle quite a lot from a hard joint. You may break things like knuckles, drawbars and draftgear, but not derail. HOWEVER, if you make a hard joint on a curve, including the diverging route of switches, you can derail due to knocking the rail over.Hope this helps,
Todd
CP Hogger

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Years ago, I unloaded a boxcar full of bedroom furniture. Trouble was immient when I had to use a come-a-long to pry the door open and a broken mirror fell out of of the carton from the top of the load inside.We found that a third of that load was badly damaged as a result of the rough handling.SRV Ron

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Thanks, Todd. #1 definitively answered, what got me wondering about that was when switching (British "shunting") cars with more than one engine, it's a bit harder to control stopping since the helper engine is still pushing with its momentum and don't get any brakes unless you use the train brake. Now that I know KUJU got it wrong, I can see if there's a way to hack the .eng file to fix it. I forget who asked, but yeah, I'm almost certain the dynamic brakes are cumulative, one way to find out is to explore route on PO&N 6 starting at Spawn2 with something like the 3 Dash9 50 mixed consist, and ride the dynamics down that long grade to the lower level of the double deck bridge. Then do it again, this time stopping at the first trailing point switch to uncouple the cars, set out the two helpers, and take the cars downgrade with only the one engine. I know the sanders are not tied together, at least not on steamers, since you can switch to outside view and see all the drivers slipping. Hit the sand, and only the lead engine digs in, the drivers on any helpers continue to spin madly around. Hard to tell with diesels tho, the wheels are too small and hidden by trucks, so I can't tell if they're spinning or not. Have to paint a stripe on a diesel wheel sometime and check that out.#2, "swinging gates", I dunno if they're still around, but "Smashboards" were used as a wake-up call at some intersections. Reason I'm asking about whistle/horn signals:http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID5/6682.htmlWorking on a project to get AI trains to blow horns or toot whistles (depending on type, of course!) when approaching the player engine in activities. Since the AI train has priority at all merge/diverge junctions on the PO&N, I thought it would be nice for the player to have an audible warning that one is on the way. Trying to do it with signals is a beast, since so many things affect signal indications, and with the AI train overtaking from behind there's no gradual sequence, just green over green distant and suddenly it's red in your face. Gotta fix that for PO&N7, and I figured if there was an actual prototype I'd use that instead of just two long blasts.#3, OK, I guess it would be desirable to hunt up a better in-cab sound for that SD40-2.#4, That's what I kinda suspected. I haven't ridden in any engine since Uncle Frank (C&NW Hogger in the 50s and 60s) took me on his when I was a young teenager, and that was (harrumph-harrumph) years ago. I do remember some seriously loud bangs in the yards from other crews, and Uncle Frank said some of these guys treat freightcars like they owe them money. Never saw anything get busted, and of course back then people just didn't ship fragile stuff by rail, and I thought they were zipping along at a pretty good clip when they hit some of those cars.
I've been hacking the .eng files on all my switching engines for "derailbufferforce = 800kN", and that gives coupling up to 5mph, bumping the cars without coupling at 6 to 8 mph, and derailment at 8mph and over. That's on straight level track with the back coupler of the engine, the front coupler is a lot more sensitive (and usually locks up the sim instead of derailing), but with the 800kN hack the front coupler works at a more reasonable 3 mph.Otto, I dunno about Australia, it seems to me that them cobbers need magnets to hold the wheels on the track hanging upside-down on the bottom of the world like that, but what coupler types they use I have no idea. Here in the USA, everything that runs on rails uses knuckle couplers (officially "automatic couplers", most people I know call them knuckle couplers), including heavy metropolitan rapid transit trains. The CTA used to get all its new Elevated/subway trains from Seattle or Philadelphia or wherever coupled into regular freight trains, and no adaptation was necessary to couple them in. Even the air brake hoses are the same.

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sniper297,
Sanders should apply on all diesels, there is a mu hose that controls sanding. On a steamer the hogger on the second engine would apply sand if his wheels started spinning, KuJu got that wrong as well. In steam days, engines were not mu'ed together, each steam engine had a engineer and fireman. Some roads even required a headend brakeman per engine. They would talk to each other via whistle signals. Below are from the PRR Rules for conducting Transportation book.

short = 0
long = _00 = When standing, start.
00 = When running, stop.
000 = When standing, backup.
000 = When backing, stop.
____ = Apply brakes.
0000 = Reduce Speed.
00000 = Increase Speed.
________ = Approaching railroad crossing at grade.
_ _ 0 _ = Approaching Highway crossing at grade.0 0 0 0 0 = Persons or livestock on tracks.Have Fun,
Rich S.

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First there are no silly questions. There was a while ago approached a RR crossing (two tracks etc) required 4 longs. But in all of the rail lines I have been around I habve hardly ever heard a train blow for a rail crossing these days. The 4 longs thing may have been a throw back from he old days.
I have heard trains blow a whistle before crossing junctions but in very few places. 99% of the places I have been they just clunk acrossBob
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LAST EDITED ON May-28-03 AT 11:34 PM (EDT)


>Sanders should apply on all diesels, there is a mu hose that controls sanding.Older diesel locomotives had a fourth MU air hose and that was for the sanders. The MU cable (electrical) transmits the sanding signal in modern locomotives nowadays.PatchCrew
UP Engineer

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At individual grade crossings, I think they still do the long-long-short-long. However, when the frieghts roll through downtown orlando at night (with about 100 grade crossings through the city), the engineer will just give short "toots" every 2-3 seconds.I think the bit about ending an activity for failing to sound the horn at a crossing is a little harsh. I think it should come up as a notice in your closing evaluation. After all, most times, who's going to know.Bluevoss-

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Sniper,
1)When loco's are MU'd all the loco's act in concert as one.
Dynamic,Ind.application and release, bailoff,sanding,throttle,
FWD-Rev,MU Lights (headlights,marker lights),wheel slip,signal communication, etc.
2)There are various horn signals used in yards,example 4 long waiting for permission to depart, two short while standing still,equip.is about to move Fwd, three short while standing still,equip. is about to move in reverse.
3)On modern AC traction loco's with whisper cabs the eng. sounds have been muted quite a bit with all windows closed, but the cab is tagged with it's tested decibel(DB'S) reading. They are still up around 90db, which after long term exposure is not good,so in response they are still pretty loud, obviously depending on load and speed.
4)Real life couplings are supossed to be nice and slow but depending on conditions ( curved track,drawhead and coupler condition)they are generally under 10 mph. The extreme hard hitches I've seen cause damage to the knuckle, and draftgear assemblies.I've never seen a car derail on a harder than normal hitch.
Hope it helps, I have to say for people that haven't actually worked in and around railroads, I am very impressed with the knowledge of railroading I've seen.
KRO52
32 years LIRR Loco. Shop Foreman
Retired

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>
>
>2. Everyone knows long-long-short-long for grade crossings,
>is/was there a specific whistle signal for approaching a
>junction with another track that might not be under positive
>interlocking signal control? I'm thinking primarily of
>peddler freights on feeders, short and branch
>here, but prior to telegraph & signals there must been
>something other than just the clock even on the high iron.
>
Sniper, I posted a question relative to whistle protocol some time ago and got answers indicating very few RR's have hard and fast rules. One person indicated there is a switch/button in the cab the engineer can punch and get the long, long, short, long signal.
My personal observation, derived from living whithin about two miles from a fairly busy CSX line and within several miles of seven grade crossings is, it is the engineer's choice. Some use the long, long, short, long but most use a mixed bag of whistles. There is one that blows through with a series of very longs. Another just keeps blowing shorts. I guess they are like the San Francisco cable car grabmen, they like to do their own thing. There are no switching activities, just through freight and two Amtrak's.
Hope this helps.
DC

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More background on Sniper's No. 2 question.The only whistle signal that would normally be used at a cross junction of two tracks would be a single long blast. This was normally used when coming into stations, but its purpose was to let the operator know that a train was aproaching. At a crossing there was only two options. They man the crossing and manually controlled it which was done if there was much traffic on the line. Or the junction was controlled by orders which would be issued by a dispatcher.Studying old railroad operations is really neat. Communications between the engineer and caboose by opening the break valve on the rear of the train. The engineer could see the open valve by the change in brake line pressure. The crew of a long train, curved track, in the woods having to let the engineer know they had closed the switch behind them. On one road they communicated this by lighting a 5 minute fusee (flare) and tossed it high into the air. The engine crew knew they could proceed when the say the fusee flying into the air. Having two trains meet at a siding and passing when both trains were longer than the siding.

Newton Kid

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Heh. I've seen an accident from coupling too fast. I think, IIRC, the cars were doing like six miles per when they hit, making a loud crunch and a booming clatter as they derailed.

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Question is, what other factors were involved? Rough track with deferred maintenance is the usual cause of that sort of thing.In MSTS, for those who don't know, as long as it's a valid track join (no blue end-of-track-database poles sticking up in the route editor), there's no derailment unless the current speed limit is exceeded. If you're clipping along at 50 thru a series of left-right 45 degree yard curves, and the speed limit is 60, no problem. Go thru a yellow signal and the speed limit drops to 40, off the rails you go even if it's a smooth 1000 meter radius curve. Obviously it's not like that in real life, somebody go tell KUJU cuz that's hard coded in, overspeed triggers derailments ignoring actual physics. Route developers usually fake that, stick in a "tripper" section, misaligned dynamic track or a sudden grade transition, then stick a 15mph speed restriction before the tripper.Anyway, I'm staying with derailbufferforce (800kN) simply because if I use their defaults I can stay within that 4mph limit, but the front coupler has a 1 to 2mph limit and sometimes needs 3 to engage. Somebody mentioned he talked to a KUJU guy at the E3 show and asked about the front coupler for MSTS 2, and the KUJU guy was under the impression that the 1.1 patch fixed all the front coupler problems. As far as the honk-honk toot-toot, I uploaded invisocar with the double horn blast, at 900 meters and 500 meters. That can get iffy too, if the AI is running at 20 and I'm booking along toward it at 50, we got 70mph closure rate, so the 900 meter range triggers two horn blasts, and before they're finished playing the range has closed to 500, so the closer sounds play right on the heels of the further ones, whonk-whonk-whonk-whonk. The .sms files can always be hacked, and I suspect they will, with some real wierd results. I'm gonna work on a grade crossing hack for it, play one longblast.wav, one longblast.wav, one shortblast.wav, one longblast.wav, and cut the horn and whistle in half to clone them for the short blast.Those of you who have PO&N6 I also uploaded an activity pack with the horn sounds, and also corrected AI train speeds and a few other enhancements.One enhancement is the hack to the default GP38 that changes the lower throttle notches, 6% instead of 13% for notch 1, which makes it easier to use the front coupler without having to use the independent brake, even with a helper coupled on the back. http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID3/18308.htmlI dunno what in the .eng file makes the dynamics MU (and I tested it, they do combine) but not the independent brake, but if it's there I'm sure somebody will find it.

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