Operation?

Hi all,My first post on this discussion board and I have to apologize in advance if this has been covered. Been using MSTS for about 2 years now and really enjoy it. Not ventured much into route building or even activity building; each time seems like a lot more work than necessary. I also had a model RR for years, but with a recent move, it had been dismantled and will probably not be rebuilt for quite some time (kids and committments have a way of doing that). So under that context, here is the background to my question for the wizards of MSTS.One of the greatest elements of model RR'ing was operation. You know, moving freight from point A to point B, later on picking up the cars; way freights, through freights, yard ops, etc. Good stuff. And the beauty of a model RR is that you could finish up a session, leave everything the way it was, and come back to it in 1 week or 1 month later and pick up where you left off.And now the question: is there a way you can set up and 'endless' operating session in MSTS, where the cars are where they were; where you can, say, run a train across the division with some SD-40's, break the train up with with a switcher, assemble a local with the GP-38, shuffle a few cars, repeat ad nauseum... to the point you can come back to some siding several 'sessions' later and still find that car you put there before? (whew, that was a long winded!) Do you get the idea? What fries me about MSTS is that every phase of operation has to be pre-planned, set up and debugged before I can just run a train. Can one just set up a bunch of rolling stock and locomotives, and then just have fun jumping around from cab to cab running the trains? Can I just set a bunch of cars and locomotives around, run some trains, move cars, go from point A to B and back again, ad infinitum? AI traffic would be great, too, but at this point I am thinking I'm pushing the limits already!I am looking forward to your thoughts. And I appreciate your time in replying.Regards,Detlef

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RE: Operation?, sniper297, Apr-23-03, 07:27 PM, (1) RE: Operation?, DTA, Apr-23-03, 08:57 PM, (2) RE: Operation?, sniper297, Apr-23-03, 10:42 PM, (4) RE: Operation?, detlef10, Apr-24-03, 01:44 PM, (16) RE: Operation?, Mark_Blum, Apr-23-03, 09:59 PM, (3) RE: Operation?, Coonskin, Apr-23-03, 11:14 PM, (5) RE: Operation?, philskene, Apr-23-03, 11:55 PM, (8) RE: Operation?, detlef10, Apr-24-03, 01:47 PM, (17) RE: Operation?, CWA13000, Apr-23-03, 11:35 PM, (6) RE: Operation?, sooner, Apr-23-03, 11:53 PM, (7) RE: Operation?, greyfox070, Apr-24-03, 00:08 AM, (9) RE: Operation?, Coonskin, Apr-24-03, 01:49 AM, (10) RE: Operation?, philskene, Apr-24-03, 02:22 AM, (11) RE: Operation?, greyfox070, Apr-24-03, 03:33 AM, (12) RE: Operation?, detlef10, Apr-24-03, 01:49 PM, (18) RE: Operation?, happyj, Apr-24-03, 05:37 AM, (13) RE: Operation?, mauried, Apr-24-03, 08:08 AM, (14) RE: Operation?, Bluevoss, Apr-24-03, 09:47 AM, (15) RE: Operation?, detlef10, Apr-24-03, 02:02 PM, (19) RE: Operation?, Bluevoss, Apr-24-03, 03:17 PM, (20) RE: Operation?, Coonskin, Apr-24-03, 04:46 PM, (21)

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LAST EDITED ON Apr-23-03 AT 07:29 PM (EDT)

Guys like you are too far and too few between. The overwhelming majority of MSTS players drive 100mph passenger trains from point A to point B, most people were totally unaware of the front coupler bug. Nice to meet a guy who actually likes switching and way freight ops.Do a search in the file library, and in the filename box type PONv6.zip . The Port Ogden & Northern is based on Lin Wescott's #8 shelf layout, with elements of some of John Armstrong's layouts thrown in, and the signals are set up for freestyle activities. All the included activities use default rolling stock so there's nothing else to download, all activities are completely open ended, so make up your own work orders, or fake it as you go along, and you're done when you want to be done. No pop-ups to tell you what to do.
http://www.train-sim.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=11521&forum=DCForumID3As far as jumping from cab to cab, no. Whatever engine you start with is the one you finish with, but the PO&N activities have strategically located helper sheds with enough additional power to pull 200 cars (if your computer will handle that many!)

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Good to see you Sniper! Its good, but very frustrating sometimes! Especially, when u have a green light, and some freight suddenly comes into view. PON is definitely a unique route in the current version, I don't think there is anything like it available, you have done a good job there.David

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"Good to see you Sniper!"Now I'm getting paranoid, I don't have one of those webcam thingamys, can you actually SEE me?! Guess I better put some clothes on! "Its good, but very frustrating sometimes! Especially, when u have a green light, and some freight suddenly comes into view."Hee-hee, to me it beats the hell out of the alternative, which is sitting there staring at a red absolute signal for half an hour before finally deciding the activity has a bug in it. That's why the PO&N never had signals or AI traffic until version 5, I wanted the player to be able to go wherever he wanted without any schedule to keep or particular path to follow.
Due to the nature of interlocking signals (AKA "NeverGreen Trees") and the Artificial Idiot dispatcher (HAL9000), for the player to have absolute freedom of movement the AI trains have to take priority at all meets. After almost a year of screwing around with it, I finally got the signals configured so that HAL would detect the presence of the player train on the single track blocks, and delay throwing the switches until the player was clear. Unfortunately, HAL doesn't actually check the signals themselves, he looks at the track. That's why there's a "Last Chance" distant switch indicator at the base of every junction switch, in case HAL throws the switch ahead after you already passed the home signal.That's why you should always check the "Last Chance" signal, because if it suddenly goes red that means the switch ahead is thrown for the AI tracks. Time to get on the binders, you have about two minutes to back up and clear the switch for the AI train.
That's where the confusion comes in, the way it SHOULD work is, once the player train passes the home signal, the other track should be locked out. But the other track isn't locked out until you clear the base of the switch, so there's a few second "window" where you pass a green over green home signal, but HAL doesn't "see" you in the block yet.Once the front coupler actually passes the base of the switch, the path for the AI train thru that junction will stop advancing. "PON is definitely a unique route in the current version, I don't think there is anything like it available,"Nope, nothing like it. Seems funny to me, I had a lot of open discussions with other route developers on the subject, but nobody seems to be interested in making another route with that type of signal system.http://www.train-sim.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=2386&forum=DCForumID6&archive=yes http://www.train-sim.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=2444&forum=DCForumID6&archive=yes http://www.train-sim.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=2595&forum=DCForumID6&archive=yes http://www.train-sim.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=2670&forum=DCForumID6&archive=yes http://www.train-sim.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=3073&forum=DCForumID6&archive=yes http://www.train-sim.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=3909&forum=DCForumID6&archive=yes
"you have done a good job there."Yeah, I like it. Had a lot of help tho, and Hank "SignalMaster" Sundermeyer is currently working on a new set of signals specifically designed for PO&N style signal setups. It will still have to incorporate the "Last Chance" distant switch indicator tho, since the problem of AI traffic control without restricting the player requires it. One last observation, not paying attention to signals can get you in trouble anywhere, but at least on my route you get a spectacular crash instead of that boring old "Activity Ended, you ran a red light" pop-up!

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Thank you, Sniper. The suggestions are awesome and I cannot wait to get the downloads and install them. It will certainly be refreshing. Appreciate your thoughts.Highball!Detlef

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Welcome aboard!I'm with sniper - operation is where it's at - and if I ever finish my route I hope to include realistic schedules, traffic patterns, etc so you can work the local industries, or elect to pick-up and set out along the way - or just plain drive.To your question - yes, you can make an endless activity. You can place rolling stock in yards, on industrial spurs, etc. - wherever you want. Create your starting point with whatever train you want to drive, and go to work building or breaking up your train as you wish. When you're done, save it. Next time, pick up where you left off. Create several activities, one for the through freight, one for the "turn" and one for the local, etc - run whatever you wish, and save when you're done.You need to create your path in such a way that you don't cross the end point and end your activity forever. You also need to develop activity building skill necessary to avoid absolute blocks that give you a red indication and end your employment, even if you tiptoe through.PO&N is worth the download. Good Luck!Mark
A Southern Railway Fan
The NE Georgia/SC Route

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Hi detlef10!Welcome to the forum! I'm Andre Ming. I used to post quite a bit, but of late have slacked off due to other projects.You're certainly not alone in the love of operation. I too, come from a long history of model railroading, as well as some prototype railroading. Switching and car forwarding is the name of the game for me as well. On the prototype, I enjoyed pounding the chat more than yanking the throttle. (Except when I working for the the steam powered tourist railroad!)MSTS can do it quite nicely ONCE you understand and accept its limitations. I see you've already been given some great advice by some of the most knowlegable forumites here, so I won't duplicate.Suffice to say that I'm hoping there are more "Operators" out there than just "Runners", because the projects I'm working on emphasize that aspect of MSTS. To me, "operations" are the heart of railroading, and that's what I like to simulate best with my routes/etc.Have fun!Andre "Coonskin" Ming

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Sniper & Andre –I’ve almost completed a re-working of Dogskill to allow the type of open-ended operations provided in PO&N.In my version, there are a number of traffic generators, including wood chipping, a shale oil refinery, steel mill, cement plant, brewery, paper mill, an interchange with a Class 1 railroad and, most importantly, a boxcar repaint/refurbishment facility. The last allows almost unlimited variety of rolling stock (who, for example, do you think painted the Seaview doodlebugs, Xmas boxcars, Bigblow turbines, … ?).Like PO&N there will be open ended activities, with a choice of starting locations and with rolling stock situated at the major industries.It should appeal to those who like short line operations and want to drive along scenically attractive routes. In other words, those who for a number of reasons like PO&N. Not trainsimers who drive 100 car consists 200+ km.It also has a Railroad/Transport Tycoon flavour.I’ve yet to master MSTS signalling, so the DragonRail short line uses radio-based dispatching.I’m doing final testing this weekend before attempting to compress the route using RouteRiter. I guess I should also seek the permission of the original author before release?Phil
Adelaide, South Australia

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Mark,Thanks for reply. I still whince when getting into an activity builder; I think I have successfully developed only one, and it was a minimal attempt. Well, challenges are what life is about. Too bad we cannot hop from one engine to another.Slack's out, here we go!Detlef

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Hi, I'm PO&Ns biggest fan. I did a little dabbling in the Route Editor and added fuel at most of the engine houses and I run continuously day and night refueling when needed. I also hacked Snipers AI and replaced most of his consists with a passenger train pulled by the K36 steam. I think it makes more sense to be held up all the time by a passenger train than a freight. I have a lot of the realistic weathered 40' box cars and 50 ton coal cars, small grain hoppers and tankers these allow me to pull numerous cars with the limited power provided by those excelent K36s. Some day I'll get to the point where I will return all cars to the original makeup of the individual consists that I had put out in replacement of the default ones. I sincerely believe that PO&N6 is the route for you.

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Instead of using the activity editor, I used to, and sometimes still do, set up monster consists in "explore," composed of the sub-consists I want to play with, break them up and move them around into the start positions I wanted - the Empire Builder by the depot, a string of tank cars on this siding, boxes on tracks 2,3 and 5, etc. - and save the game at various points. Far fewer things to go wrong, but no moving AI trains.

bud

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Hey all:I'm an "operator" as well, and I find that by using the Activity Editor, and MS Excel for car tracking...I can create a pretty reasonable operation. I think one of the BIGGEST problems is that industries that are in the game dont cater to operation. What I mean is, taking Marias Pass route...there are spurs with buildings alongside that dont have accurate loading/unloading facilities. Its nice to drop cars in spurs, but much more fun to line up boxcars alongside docks or place hoppers under a grain or coal chute. Marias Pass is a perfect example. Many spurs...take for instance.."Columbia Falls - Gas Spur" or "Chip Spur"... where are the chip loaders? Tank car loading racks? Storage tanks? I dont mean to knock anyones routes...(dodges flaming bullets)...but some routes have a better emphasis on realistic industry. Theres nothing wrong with "canned" industry when you spent 6 months laying track...but there has to be a better way. Maybe MSTS x.x future versions will address these issues.Just my $.02Brad Kostelny
Southwest Airlines Flight Attendant
MCO 9FA 68400

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Phil:Sounds great. Hope your reworks are pleasing to you.Brad:Some of thing things I'm doing on my routes is using docks whenever appropriate/possible, as well as doors, etc. I too, think it adds tremendously to the rail "experience" to actually have to spot the cars at select industries, as opposed to merely shoving a cut onto a track. Of course, some industry types are simple shove-in moves. Pulpwood loading, for example... like in horsehoes and hand grenades: Close is good enough!It's encouraging to see that others besides Sniper and myself enjoy operation! In fact, I just got finished testing some trackage via run-arounds and spotting cuts of empty coal cars at some mine spurs! Andre Ming

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Brad -Agree, absolutely!On DragonRail you will find specific loading or unloading points for oil, wood chips, cement, beer, grains, ... .The transfer yard provides access to the rest of the world.The purpose of railroads is to transport people and goods from one location to another. That's how they make money to survive.The difficulty with most MSTS routes that I have run is that in reality there is so little defined traffic and such an excess of rail infrastructure that a real railroad would quickly become bankrupt.Phil

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Hey guys:Now that we crossed the programming and route editing bridge, let me discuss how I "operate" with MSTS. I usually only "operate" on Marias Pass 3.1 (between Whitefish and Essex) and Maple Leaf Tracks Lake Superior and Ishpeming routes. This provides a reasonable amount of traffic, otherwise, I'd be spending more time creating activities and such than actually running a train. The most critical step is creating a bare-bones activity. Each route I run has one blank activity. My first "day" on the LS&I, I filled the home yard with LS&I ore jennies and the WC interchange track with interchaNge cars. It would seem logical to me that you have to get a "supply" of empties onto your line before starting to move them to businesses. Then, I created an MS Excel spreadsheet
detailing where all the various cars need to be spotted. I also created a reference of all industry sidings and spurs with their information concerning what types of loads will be shipped and inbound raw materials needed. Then I either print the switch list or simply memorize it or task switch once MSTS is running. Once the switching/mainline running is done,I edit my activity and update all car positions. I also remove outbound interchange traffic. I check off each movement in MS Excel and save my work for the next "day". The next "day" I load the activity and add any new interchange work, then run MSTS. This system works great for a small operation like the MLT LS&I. I also added two industries to the LS&I route to add some traffic variety.I just wish MSTS handled the day-to-day transition by itself, by updating the activity. I also wish I kept track of revenue (an economy mode). But alas...we have old "reliable" to keep us amused.Brad Kostelny
Southwest Airlines Flight Attendant
MCO 9FA 68400

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This is something I have done, but not to the extent you have suggested. Thanks for the idea....Detlef

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I fully agree with your observations about operation being a sgnificant part of railroading in any form.I also fully concur with the replies to date. I for for one have completely enjoyed PO@N 6 and the complete flexibility it offers in train operation.However,
I for one am unable to make full use of all the activity and route editors mainly because of the ravages of old age, particularly memory loss which makes the use of these tools extremely difficult ,if not impossible.Perhaps some of you more prolific activity creators could develop this type of activity for some of the more popular routes,NEC 4 would be a good start,and make them available for those less skilled or creative than yourselves

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Ive sort of built a route that supports endless activities in that its a very large but circular route (about 350 miles worth) and withing the big circle are many smaller overlapping circles.
I did this because I wanted to to be able to drive my train around a route where I would get unexpected events happening every time I played the route ,such as crossing trains at passing sidings and I dont what train is coming.
This happens because my route has around 55 AI trains all running around the circles as well and after a few laps (a single lap takes about 4 hours) the AI trains become so mixed up you cant guess what will happen next.
Amazingly , it all seems to work , at least most of the time , although Ive had a few long waits at crossing loops (like a real railroad I guess.)
Getting the bugs out of the route initially ,and understanding within limits of how the AI Dispatcher works have taken most of my time .
Im about 3/4 of the way to completion (been building the route for over a year now ).There are lots of things you can do with this Sim if you play around with it enuf.MD

MD

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While I love MSTS, I still stick with model railroading for operations.Where I live, we have a very active N-scale club. There are five layouts (including mine) in a round-robin group that operates every monday night.Further, our club has an extensive layout. Last night we ran with 30 or so operators. I'm the dispatcher for these massive efforts. 8-10 freights, a handful of passenger trains, and a number of locals, all working away for two hours. Its great fun, especially when (like last night) it all goes well.Funniest thing - last night, I get a call extra 416, a local sitting in Martin Yard, who will eventually work his way up to Grubstake. He calls me to inform me that he is "pumping air" (which is a railroady way to say that you have your engines dialed up and your radio on.A few minutes later, I get a window in my traffic, and figure its a good time to shoot 416 out. I call him and ask if he's ready."No can do, Dispatcher," he answers. "I haven't coupled up to my train yet.""Then what were you pumping air into?" I had to ask.MSTS is great, but live ops is a real hoot.Bluevoss-

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OH! You're making me drewl! How I loved that stuff. You wouldn't be in the Denver metro area, would you? Actually I am trying to network with people who operate their layouts and see if I can get on the 'call board'. We'll have to see where that ends up. I agree, MSTS is great, but there is a lot to be said for a half dozen or more operators and a handful of trains all truly operating simultaneously.Beat regards,Detlef

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Sorry - its the Orlando, Florida area. And, yup, its fun to drive trains around, but its really good when you move cars in and out of mainline traffic, and you get a complement at the end of the evening.Something I'd like to see in MSTS (which we are using more and more in model train operations) is TT&TO (Time Table and Train Order) operations. In a nutshell, its how trains ran for over a hundred years (before CTC become popular, and was used as recently as the 60's). Essentually, a train has rights via a clearance form given to him at his originating station. He makes meets with other trains based on his timetable. If the dispatcher needs to change a meet (becuase of a late train), the order will be passed to him as he rolls through a station (physically passed, using a hoop with the note attached, often on the fly!). This means that under TT&TO, the engineer determines what his stratagy will be - what sidings to take and so on, based on the orders he has recevied and the information in this time table.I run my layout under TT&TO, and its a real blast. You work your way through my subdivision, siding by siding, doing switching work as ordered by the freight agent and making your meets.Someday, maybe in MSTS7, we'll see something like this.Makes me appricate engineers in the 50s - keeping their trains running under all sorts of gradiants, all while watching for signals and considering their issued orders!Bluevoss-

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LAST EDITED ON Apr-24-03 AT 04:47 PM (EDT)

bluevoss:I'm operating on my memory here, so the exact dates I can't pin down. Train Order operation was still very much in place right up until the end of the Frisco. (May of 1980.) I have copies of Train Orders from the Ft. Smith Sub of the Frisco that are dated in the late 70's. In fact, as late as 1980, the Rock Island was still using Train Orders on the Choctaw Line through my neck of the woods here along the OK/AR border. (Which, like the FS Sub, was a "dark" railroad.) I think Train Orders were phased out in favor of Track Warrant Control sometime in the early-mid 80's?I recall the Arkansas & Missouri (begun operations on the former Frisco/BN FS Sub in '86) was operating under Track Warrant Control when I was being considered for extra board use on that railroad. Recall being given an A&M rule book and therein addressed TCW use. Have no idea what I've done with the rule book... likely stored up in the attic along with all the other railroad paper momemto's I have.Andre Ming

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