Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue

I sent an email to Kuju & Microsoft with a link from one of the last posts concerning this issue about 2 to 3 weeks ago. I opened up my email this morning to find a response from Kuju. Most of the information was of course the standard concerning where to look when you have problems, but at the very bottom of the message was this."PS this particular problem is one we are currently looking into."I hope this means that this is going to be fixed in the current version. I also brought up the minor operations window issue when using the front couplers so I don't know if they are looking into this as well.Edward K.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., calr, Feb-11-03, 04:29 PM, (1) RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., edwardk, Feb-11-03, 05:28 PM, (2) RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., DTA, Feb-11-03, 06:32 PM, (3) RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., homer13j, Feb-11-03, 07:42 PM, (4) RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., johndww, Feb-12-03, 01:36 AM, (6) RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., TrainFreak, Feb-12-03, 04:37 AM, (7) RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., Stooopid_person, Feb-12-03, 08:42 AM, (9) RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., TrainFreak, Feb-12-03, 08:45 AM, (10) RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., Mudpup, Feb-12-03, 01:23 PM, (15) RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., ctillier, Feb-12-03, 01:49 PM, (17) RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., xlspecial261, Feb-11-03, 09:08 PM, (5) RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., plainsman, Feb-12-03, 08:27 AM, (8) RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., bobs, Feb-15-03, 04:44 PM, (30) RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., OTTODAD, Feb-12-03, 09:02 AM, (11) RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., bjrhatigan, Feb-12-03, 10:57 AM, (12) RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., OTTODAD, Feb-12-03, 01:11 PM, (13) RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., edwardk, Feb-12-03, 01:20 PM, (14) RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., OTTODAD, Feb-12-03, 01:25 PM, (16) RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., DTA, Feb-12-03, 02:14 PM, (18) RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., OTTODAD, Feb-12-03, 04:22 PM, (19) RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., bjrhatigan, Feb-12-03, 05:39 PM, (20) RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., OTTODAD, Feb-12-03, 05:57 PM, (21) RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., Stooopid_person, Feb-13-03, 08:52 AM, (22) RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., bjrhatigan, Feb-13-03, 11:00 AM, (23) RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., fixin2, Feb-13-03, 01:20 PM, (25) RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., Stooopid_person, Feb-14-03, 08:55 AM, (27) RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., OTTODAD, Feb-14-03, 10:41 AM, (28) RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., OTTODAD, Feb-13-03, 03:59 PM, (26) RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., downside, Feb-14-03, 11:26 AM, (29) RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., henry3, Feb-13-03, 11:32 AM, (24) RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., gallop3, Feb-16-03, 12:38 PM, (31) RE: Kuju Looking Into Broken Coupler Issue., enocell, Feb-16-03, 01:38 PM, (32)

Conferences | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic

Don't hold your breath! You'll probably never hear from them again.Cal Rasmussen
Beaverton, OR
cal.rasmussen@verizon.netColumbia Gorge Route (Phase 1 track completed, road construction resumed.)

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON Feb-11-03 AT 05:29 PM (EDT)

Cal,I would never hold my breath for anything. Besides, I would think that there would have been enough email sent to both Kuju & Microsoft concerning this issue that both would have to consider looking into this issue. The question is, will they attempt to fix it in this current version or wait till MSTS2?Edward K.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON Feb-11-03 AT 07:08 PM (EDT)

The broken couplers are basically due to lousy track in places. I have noticed that all new trains and wagons I have downloaded are made tougher because of it.It is difficult to blame Kuju. Some of the new routes have areas which have track problems, both free and commercial.On the other hand:Kuju created Settle and Carlisle from a totally outdated 1970s route, which was never used commercially.We all know about the Marias Pass gradients, which are wrong.The Tokio line was incorrectly transferred from Kilometres rather than miles, so the station stops are way to short.The Swiss line, has a permanent 30mph speed limit where none exists.The NEC had loads of overheads missing, stations missing, and milepoints wrong.I have no idea whether they got the hiatsu route correct, but I expect it is as wrong as all the others.In short, they couldn't care less. I know this in fact, because I have inside knowledge. There is nobody in the the Kuju team, who has any interest in trains whatsoever. They have just produced a cynical first version of MSTS, and I expect the next version will be equally bad, unless TA has got involved.David

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

>In short, they couldn't care less. I know this in fact,
>because I have inside knowledge. There is nobody in the the
>Kuju team, who has any interest in trains whatsoever.They may have little interest in trains, but they definitely have an interest in producing profitable software. Example: I could care less about selling cars, but if I don't create solid software that works correctly for car dealers to work with then word spreads and I'm out of business. And I could care less about selling cookware, but my customer (the company that does care about such things) must be able to use my programs effectively or we all get screwed. And when bugs are found I must fix them as soon as reasonably possible. But never forget the fact that we are talking about a GAME here. Not quite as critical (at least to most of us).It's obvious that this software was rushed into production long before it was ready. I sincerely doubt Kuju had much to do with that. And I doubt the RE was originally intended to be released to the public. Programmers write these programs all the time to make our lives easier. We know where all the bugs and memory leaks are. It would be nice if they could provide us with a list of known issues, but again I doubt Kuju had much to do with that, outside forces were at work (hint, rhymes with "Bicrosoft").>They
>have just produced a cynical first version of MSTS, and I
>expect the next version will be equally bad, unless TA has
>got involved. Fortunately most of us are not so pessimistic. No software is ever perfect, but let's hope they're listening to us. I think they are.And remember, people, it's only a game.Homer #13j

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

(In short, they couldn't care less. I know this in fact, because I have inside knowledge. There is nobody in the the Kuju team, who has any interest in trains whatsoever. They have just produced a cynical first version of MSTS, and I expect the next version will be equally bad)Two years ago I went to the E3 show and saw the introduction to MSTS. I had about a 45 min session with the head person at the show and I saw much interest in the Train Simulator. I was there at the show representing a News Web Page and my purpose was to write an article on MSTS. Kuju may not be personally interested in the train simulators, however many of the Microsoft people are. Just like those in the Flight Simulators. I also talked to someone from the Flight Simulator section and did write articles for posting on the web. True the program is designed with the idea of a profit. Having been the marketing all my life and selling items for profit doesn't mean your not interested in what you design. The best sales from a company is one who is proud of their product and some times you have to correct them. I saw that attitude when I interviewed MS personel.

JohnDWW

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Swiss line? There is no Swiss line in the default MSTS...However, one more foul-up: The Innsbruck-St.Anton line is in miles, not KMs (I doubt imperial units have ever been used in Austria, although I may of course be wrong).The Settle&Carlisle line is remade to a more prototypically correct version by a fellow in the UK. Does anyone know if anyone is working on redoing the Tokyo-Hakone line and the Innsbrukc-St.Anton line?

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

>The Settle&Carlisle line is remade to a more prototypically
>correct version by a fellow in the UK. It was commercail. See UKTS, 1930 Settle-Carisle by Pat.

------My favourite LUL train------

"The next station is Chancery Lane"...........Crash! Bam! Booom!...Sends 32 people in the hospital and makes all the other 1992 stocks out of service for motor bracket replacing...

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Semi-commercial, I'll say - he is only charging for the costs of burning the route on CD and distributing it

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

DTA, how do you have this insdie knowledge - do you actually know members of the team ?I'm not saying I disbelieve you, just curious.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

The way I see it, MSTS today basically consists of a framework designed by Kuju (the software engineers: sim engine, numerical integration, file formats, etc.) and content designed by the community (the artists: locomotives, routes, scenery).Because it was important for Kuju to sell a complete product from the start, they had to do both some engineering and some art... the same will be true of MSTS 2.But if they have to cut corners, I'd MUCH rather have them cut corners on the art (bad loco models, missing catenary, etc.) than cut corners on the engineering (coupler bug, route editor, etc.) In short, I couldn't care less about crappy routes or rolling stock as long as the damn thing is a good simulation framework. I'd rather see Kuju working on canted track, multiplayer dispatching, and other framework improvements than on a better model of the Dash 9 or a more realistic rendition of the town of Carlisle. Leave that to the 3rd party artists.All this to say that in my opinion all past, present and future bashing of Kuju's art is totally unfounded. Stick to criticism of the simulation framework.cheers

--
Clem

http://www.tillier.net/speedworks/index.html

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

This is good to hear. There are a couple places on my route, and another that I am trying out, that have some bouncing going on. (And no, it's not lousy trackwork as stated by another.)Any word yet on someone making a track section with a "hidden" node? I recall someone was working on it.Best,
Todd

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

I might take just a little different perspective with this. There is very good business reason to immediately correct the flaw in the sim. Most of us who began working with the sim in its initial availability were hardcore enthusiasts of rail operation and equipment. We were willing to invest the time and energy to modify and fix the simulator into as much of what we wanted as was possible. This type of customer is going to enjoy the product in spite of its flaws and imperfections. By now that market has largely discovered and purchased the sim. The customer of the future is not quit the same type. This customer is more typical of the game purchaser in general, wanting a product that not only provides the visual stimulation and action to maintain interest, but that is very aware of the flaws and distractions which impede the enjoyment of the product, and is not particularly inclined to invest great effort to get it ot work properly, if at all. They want everything to perform out of the package, not after tedious alterations and multiple crashes. Rhey won't take the time to experiment and tinker, they will just toss it aside and move on, leaving a disappointed reputation in their wake. That reputation can't be benificial to future marketing. I doubt the sim will get a second chance with these folks.
In short, the patient enthusiasts are already involved. The new customers will depend on the successful operation of the sim without manipulation or modification. Thus an expedient fix of this issue makes good business sense.
Bob Boudoin

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

I'd agree with Bob 100% on this. Those of you who were around when MSTS first came out know how many people worked on different aspects of this sim to find and fix problems to make it more realistic.It was clear to us then that the framework was there, but that a lot of things were rushed out the door. Things like the physics that Bob worked so hard to correct were set more or less at default values and left that way. Many prototypical aspects of railroading were left by the wayside.When we first contacted Kuju/MS about the coupler/derailing problems with the switches, they responded that they could not duplicate the problem. It is only relatively recently that we have come up with the track node/distance graphic redraw situation as a likely cause of the problem. That has nothing to do with bad track, but with a fundamental flaw in the program design. That they now recognize this as a problem and were willing to tell you so is a huge improvement...even getting an answer from them is an improvement.From a business sense, however, I also agree with Bob that fixes to things like this should be forthcoming quickly. That the sim has been out for almost 2 years now and problems like this still exist shows me a pretty arrogant, uncaring attitude on the part of Microsoft. That, of course, isn't anything new.Bob Siederer
Co-author of Marias Pass 3.1

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Edward,that response from KUJU wasn't from John Owen by any chance ?He replied to a 3-4 weeks old question of mine about more specific Technical Manuals/Info.Looks like they may now have a guy given the job of answering MSTS Users E-Mail, catching up with the backlog ? And about time too, if I may say so ! O t t o

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

In regards to DTA's pessimism -
Reading his reply, I was kind put off by it, but...
the more I gt to thinking about it, I think he may be more on the mark than off. Having had TrainSim for a year now, I'm looking at it a bit more critically.
I cannot yet create my own route, but I've taught myself how to edit.
And for the default routes which I paid for, a lot of editing was needed.
EVERY route has way too many floating tracks, trees, and buildings.
(NEC and the St. Anton line have fewer flaws, but they still have some.)
The Japanese electric line also needed many gantries installed.
The Settle line's villages/scenery was poorly done - stations with no roads/parking lots, reason to exist, etc. (Just plop some house haphazardly down in the scenery by the tracks and you're done.)
I could go on, but the thing is, I've had to edit every route to correct the more obvious scenery insults. But should this be necessary for something paid for and produced by experts?
The occassional tracks and trees that don't touch the ground are acceptable 'errors' in a FREE downloadable route. But such obvious errors shouldn't exist in a professional route, to say nothing of the Marias' Cutbank track/derailment problem. By comparing free works like East Metro, Ohio Rail, Port Ogden, Full Bucket, Pobla, etc, to the default Marias or Settle, you can see the difference between love of wanting to get it right, and love of profit. Sorry for being long-winded.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

BJ,anything from M$ (I learned that one in this Forum ) has to do with making Mega Bucks and very little else. If their Software were as perfect as it should be, there would be little money to be made by anybody else ! Just look at the size of the Virus and M$-Security Holes Fixing Industry their Software has caused to come into being ! I think that SYMANTEC and others would have gone into Chapter 11 by now but for Microsoft ! It's OLDTIMERS like myself who still put Pride in what we are doing and Workmanship before money. Spent a lot of time fixing airborne and other objects intruding into the Train's Path in the N.&.J.C. NO COMPLAINTS though, it's FREE and I am surprised that anybody would be capable to produce such a Huge and Complicated Route almost single-handed ! O t t o

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Otto,I have no idea who wrote the email. It was signed "The Train Team".Edward K.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Good Grief, Ed, I must be special to KUJU then ! Gave them enough Hassle by Mail and here in this Forum in the past ! Mine came from the "The Train Team" too, but was signed by John Owen.Respect for my "Old Age" ? O t t o

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

In reply to a couple of points:I think the Settle and Carlisle 1930, really opened my eyes to what could be achieved, and should have been done with that route in the first place. I was bowled over, by the amount of extra detail that was achieved, people, animals, flying birds and butterflies, the list is endless. The stations are much more detailed, and the extra track and sidings, make it a joy to do activities on it. To call it commercial, when it cost me (at the time), £3 is a bit of an overstatement. I have hardly touched the original since.I also agree with another post about what Kuju has to come up with next. After the initial excitement of actually having a train sim that had so much potential, subsequent discoveries on it's flaws, and the production of so much good free and payware, has set my expectations, and a lot of others, much higher. What, for instance, are the chances of current free routes working on a new version of MSTS, what about xtracks? (thanks Otto for helping me with that. You aint old, you think like a fifteen year old! LOL). What about the consist limit? I downloaded 23 UK steam trains today, and will probably load down a lot more rolling stock later, all to make into new consists. Sorry about calling it a Swiss route, I know its in Austria, but it just looks Swiss to me! David

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

David, if MSTS and it's Consists and Trainset Folders start to get choked, do what Bill "Downside" and I did, split your Routes up into different Drives or Folders, creating copies of MSTS.Not only does everything load faster and run better, Frames Rates also increase noticeably. There is also less Display Jerking due to the fact that MSTS does not have to search all over huge amounts of Disk Space to find the next Graphics files it needs. Logical Drive Partitions are best regarding the latter.All you have to do is to create a Folder in the Root of any Drive, forinstance:Drive:\Steam Routes\ and copy ALL MSTS Default Folders into it.
Next DELETE all the Routes you do not want followed by all Consists and Trainsets not required.All it needs then is a Shortcut on the Desktop "Steam Routes" or whatever andTarget: "Drive:\Steam Routes\train.exe" /anisotropic and
Start in: "Drive:\Steam Routes"and you will be surprised how much better everything works ! You can do the same with the EDITOR, pointing it's Shortcut Properties to the MSTS COPY of your choice.There is no limit, other than Disk Space, of how many different copies of MSTS you can run that way. Single Route MINI-MSTS are the fastest !Yes, you are right, I act like a 15 year old, my Brain is that of a 30 years old but blessed with all the experience that goes with my age of 74. Only trouble is that my body sometimes has different ideas about how old I think I am ! O t t o

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Ottodad -
Ramdisks; Logical Drive Partitions; and even an icon for a DOS window -
Good Lord, man, you probably even know what XCOPY and CHECKDISK/F means, and how to hook up an MFM drive !!
As Mr. Jim (Sniper) Ward would say -
"DOS & Dinosaurs"
(Hope I attributed that quote correctly)

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Yes BJ, I have been around in Computing. I was the Accountant with the Bristol, U.K., IBM Distributor and got my hands on one of the first IMB-PCs to arrive in the country. My next major experiences were the Commodore PET and the Sinclair 86X. Those were the days, PC-DOS and twin-floppy drives ! Talking about "DOS & Dinosaurs", where is SNIPER ? After a few feeble efforts posting messages, which did not sound like Jim at all, nothing has been heard or seen of him since.I would not be surprised if he and Teemu are here in the U.K., on a Holiday paid for by KUJU ? O t t o

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

>Those were the days, PC-DOS and twin-floppy drives ! Do you know where I can still get 5 1/4 floppy drives? I have some (DOS) games on some 5 1/4 disks and I want to play them!

------My favourite LUL train------

"The next station is Chancery Lane"...........Crash! Bam! Booom!...Sends 32 people in the hospital and makes all the other 1992 stocks out of service for motor bracket replacing...

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Hi
Try EBAY

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

try computer swap meets. your not looking for a 180k, 360k drive are you? could be tough. ss and ds drives, wow.... brings back memories.
when i had my repair shop started a collection to display, had several ibm 5150's, original hercules graphics card (hga), seagate st506, cmi, evergreen and several other 5 meg full heigth drives, z-100's. should of kept them i guess but trashed it all when closed up the shop. major customer, gummit, changed their statement of work so got out of the business.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

>try computer swap meets. your not looking for a 180k, 360k
>drive are you? could be tough. ss and ds drives, wow....
>brings back memories. I mean the 1.2MB disk drives(which is 5 1/4" floppy drive).

------My favourite LUL train------

"The next station is Chancery Lane"...........Crash! Bam! Booom!...Sends 32 people in the hospital and makes all the other 1992 stocks out of service for motor bracket replacing...

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Phil,had another look with GOOGLE, found only one supplier in the States who does not "Export".Another option is to find a place or an outfit in the U.K. where they store old computers for environmental disposal. Remember seeing one such site on TV, pile of old kit. I am sure you will find plenty there ! You local Comp-Shop might give you a lead ?Not sure whether newer Motherboards still support them ?O t t o

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Phil,to a "GOOGLE" for:5 1/4 floppy drives +ukO t t o

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

There is one for sale at ebay http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3401139397&category=169 but you will need to be quick - auction ends in less than 3 hours - current price £2There is another one at http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3401551828&category=169 which expires in 3 days - current price 3 daysBill

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON Feb-13-03 AT 11:33 AM (EDT)

>Talking about "DOS & Dinosaurs", where is SNIPER ? After a
>few feeble efforts posting messages, which did not sound
>like Jim at all, nothing has been heard or seen of him
>since. Now *that* is the $64 question. The place has seemed just a bit empty without him.>I would not be surprised if he and Teemu are here in the
>U.K., on a Holiday paid for by KUJU ? If you're right, that's probably the closest thing in MSTS to a dream come true! HenryEdit: The above assumes, of course, that the folks at KUJU will listen to them.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

hi all
i too nearly fell over when kuju emailed me after 2 months of waiting
judging by the wording on your email i would say they have a standard one ready to go mine was exactly the same
check out my thread in the general section re this subject using
transparent points/switches ie the code will see them but you cant
all we need now is for the x tracks team to make a set to see if it works
cheers
ian
ps i still go with the idea of us all as there is nearly 9000 of us now email kuju each week
there is always power in numbers eg unions

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

I'm not on vacation

Alert | IP

[ Home | MSTS Forum | MSTS FAQ | File Library ] Copyright © 2002 by Nels Anderson. All Rights Reserved.