Clem: TGV crash with truck

Hi,Yestday this accident happened in France.
Do you know what speed the TGV had when he hit that truck ? Our french language is not that good
We ask this because we have a discussion on our forum about the TGV and if it really can crash at high speeds because the train has some safety things on it.Thanks >> from: http://fr.news.yahoo.com/030130/202/301yo.html
Greetings Roland
Netherlands

fan of Christrains©
www.christrains.com

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RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, ctillier, Jan-31-03, 07:58 AM, (1) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, OTTODAD, Jan-31-03, 08:05 AM, (3) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, Railfan727, Jan-31-03, 09:01 AM, (5) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, OTTODAD, Jan-31-03, 09:10 AM, (6) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, Stooopid_person, Jan-31-03, 09:34 AM, (7) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, downside, Jan-31-03, 09:44 AM, (8) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, OTTODAD, Jan-31-03, 04:01 PM, (12) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, Stooopid_person, Jan-31-03, 11:35 PM, (18) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, shoskins, Jan-31-03, 07:01 PM, (15) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, shadowr434, Jan-31-03, 08:02 AM, (2) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, Stooopid_person, Jan-31-03, 08:48 AM, (4) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, ctillier, Jan-31-03, 09:48 AM, (9) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, LocoRo, Jan-31-03, 12:06 PM, (10) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, cjmaclean, Jan-31-03, 03:25 PM, (11) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, OTTODAD, Jan-31-03, 04:11 PM, (13) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, cjmaclean, Jan-31-03, 06:52 PM, (14) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, somonenamedchris, Jan-31-03, 11:31 PM, (17) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, Stooopid_person, Jan-31-03, 11:30 PM, (16) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, Picasso, Feb-01-03, 01:14 PM, (19) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, rfoss, Feb-02-03, 06:30 PM, (27) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, Fireman, Feb-02-03, 02:52 AM, (20) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, Fireman, Feb-02-03, 02:58 AM, (21) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, shadowr434, Feb-02-03, 09:39 AM, (22) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, ctillier, Feb-02-03, 12:26 PM, (23) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, tchouftchouf, Feb-02-03, 12:54 PM, (24) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, cjmaclean, Feb-02-03, 04:16 PM, (25) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, Stooopid_person, Feb-03-03, 01:04 AM, (29) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, cjmaclean, Feb-03-03, 07:54 AM, (30) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, dvdhoven, Feb-03-03, 12:38 PM, (32) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, cjmaclean, Feb-03-03, 04:10 PM, (33) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, OTTODAD, Feb-02-03, 04:36 PM, (26) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, cjmaclean, Feb-03-03, 01:03 AM, (28) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, OTTODAD, Feb-03-03, 08:06 AM, (31) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, zachattack, Feb-03-03, 06:02 PM, (34) RE: Clem: TGV crash with truck, bozoman, Feb-03-03, 06:22 PM, (35)

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Hi RolandFrom news accounts that I read, it was doing about 140 km/h, but I don't know if that was line speed or impact speed. I will have to add this one (and a couple of others from the last two years) to my summary of TGV accidents:http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/tgv/wrecks.htmlLuckily nobody was killed.cheers

--
Clem

http://www.tillier.net/speedworks/index.html

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-31-03 AT 08:58 AM (EDT)

Makes you wonder what the front of the TVG looks like and what happened to it's Driver ?I got a feeling they have allowed for impacts such as these by building TGVs using some of the Racing Cars and other Car impacts technology ? The carriages themselves are bound to be more Crash Resistant then those making up lower speed trains ?O t t oEDIT-PS: The second picture did not load when I read the message ! Looks like the Train driver walked away with minor injuries. Do TGV drivers wear Seatbelts ? Did not see one when they did the world record breaking speed test run ?

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I'm assuming that TGVs whistle for crossings....What does a TGV horn sound like?

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-31-03 AT 09:11 AM (EDT)

> What does a TGV horn sound like? Pathetic and not too audible ! Chances are that TGVs travelling at their speeds hit you first before you can hear the sound of it's horn ! If you don't get blown aside by it's preceeding Air Cushion that is, what little of it there is ! O t t o

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>If you don't get blown aside by it's preceeding Air Cushion
>that is, what little of it there is ! What's a air cushion?

------My favourite LUL train------

"The next station is Chancery Lane"...........Crash! Bam! Booom!...Sends 32 people in the hospital and makes all the other 1992 stocks out of service for motor bracket replacing...

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>What's a air cushion? Same effect as standing at the end of the platform on the underground when a train is getting close only more so.Bill

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Stand close to the track when a TGV is going past you at 300 km p.h. and you will find out what I mean, Phil ! Know what a VORTEX is ?Ever been in an "Intercity" passing another, both going at high speed ? You'd think the windows are going to cave in !O t t o

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>Ever been in an "Intercity" passing another, both going at
>high speed ? You'd think the windows are going to cave in ! That's why the Eurostar is only allowed 100mph in UK tracks...

------My favourite LUL train------

"The next station is Chancery Lane"...........Crash! Bam! Booom!...Sends 32 people in the hospital and makes all the other 1992 stocks out of service for motor bracket replacing...

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>I'm assuming that TGVs whistle for crossings....
>
>What does a TGV horn sound like? Like Inspector Clousseau's police car horn gone whacky.
From what I hear (literally) on all the French equipment uploaded to the File Library, that seems to be the national train horn of France.You'd think a big, beautiful, sleek, powerful train like the TGV would have a horn that really raises Cain, like an unrestricted K5LA!!!!

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Well thats a nasty crash.From what I get out of the article you attached is that nobody was killed, the truck was on the crossing when the gates came down trapping the truck.The driver got out before the collision. The TGV was on a borrowed line so it was not a high speed train which is why it probably was not as bad.There were a couple of injury's.

Frank Roberts
Fed Ex Freight
P&D Driver

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-31-03 AT 08:50 AM (EDT)

I think one of the safety features is the crumple nose. If you look at ALL other TGV crashes Pictures, you can only see the nose crumpled, never the cab bent/crushed. Only maybe windscreen shattered or scratched.

------My favourite LUL train------

"The next station is Chancery Lane"...........Crash! Bam! Booom!...Sends 32 people in the hospital and makes all the other 1992 stocks out of service for motor bracket replacing...

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To answer some of the other questions...While TGVs are known for their high speeds on dedicated LGV high speed lines, they tend to spend a significant portion of their time on regular tracks getting to their final destination. See for example the MSTS LGV Med approach to Marseille. On regular tracks (not LGV) there can be grade crossings and the risk of collisions just like any other train.There are no seatbelts in the train.In France trains are not required to whistle for crossings, unless there is a perceived danger. Systematic horn use at crossings is a north american thing.The basic steel structure does most of the work in an accident such as this one. While the damage looks bad at first sight, it's mostly just fiberglass aerodynamic cladding that got messed up. It doesn't look all that bad compared to past accidents.cheers

--
Clem

http://www.tillier.net/speedworks/index.html

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Clem, thanks for your answer(s)
Greetings Roland
Netherlands

fan of Christrains©
www.christrains.com

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>In France trains are not required to whistle for crossings,
>unless there is a perceived danger. Systematic horn use at
>crossings is a north american thing.
Same thing in Germany. Whistles must be used only at unguarded crossings (read: without gates or light signals to warn off motorists) and when several other criteria are met, which, however, I cannot remember off the top of my head. The general rule is that trains ALWAYS have right of way at grade crossings, which means that there is absolutely NO JUSTIFICATION for any non-railroaders to pass grade crossings when there's a train approaching. Sadly, there are still too many people who will probably never learn...and if they do, it'll be the hard way, meaning the minute when they are crushed to pulp by the impact of the buffers and then torn to bits by the wheels and track flangers .
Sorry, but I have personally seen passengers taking a shortcut across the tracks at stations or grade crossings, and my blood always starts boiling when I see them doing that...
Dominik Mann Visit www.tssf.de - www.bahn.de - http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/ - www.eisenbahnforum.de

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Dominik, that's nothing compared to what youngsters get up to here in the U.K.Playing on Main Line tracks, putting objects on the track and between Point Blades and the main rail to see what happens when a train passes or the Point is being activated, playing "Chicken" to see who can stay longest on the track, etc.All vividly shown on TV recently, recorded by Surveillance Cameras.O t t o

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Ya know, reading this makes me wish that some of them have an encounter with Mr Buffer some day . Speaking of people on tracks, some days ago an engineer who drives commuter trains on my home network told me how a colleague of his once saw a guy taking a shortcut across the tracks and climb onto the platform in order to catch the train he was driving. Now, that engineer knew there were some people from the railway security agency on board (they check tickets, among other things, and are equipped with handcuffs and, sometimes, batons), and called them over the announcement circuit to throw the guy out immediately - which they did.And on the 20th, when I was riding home in the afternoon our train almost smashed two kids who were going across a grade crossing in spite of the gates being closed. I had just got up and walked to the front of the compartment in order to look over the driver's shoulder (there's a large window in the wall between the cabs and the cabin on our new trains ) for the last part of the trip, and when our train was coming round the curve in front of the crossing at 60 kph or so my blood froze when I saw the two chaps walking through the crossing. The driver then blew the horn and the kids hurried the H off the tracks, but still we missed them by perhaps 1'.*sigh*
Dominik Mann Visit www.tssf.de - www.bahn.de - http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/ - www.eisenbahnforum.de

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bad crash

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>Dominik, that's nothing compared to what youngsters get up
>to here in the U.K.
>
>Playing on Main Line tracks, putting objects on the track
>and between Point Blades and the main rail to see what
>happens when a train passes or the Point is being activated,
>playing "Chicken" to see who can stay longest on the track,
>etc. That was what happend in the Potters Bar incident where the train crashed and the front rolled thrugh 2 platforms! The point right in front of the station had some nuts and bolts removed and it caused the train to fly through the platform.

------My favourite LUL train------

"The next station is Chancery Lane"...........Crash! Bam! Booom!...Sends 32 people in the hospital and makes all the other 1992 stocks out of service for motor bracket replacing...

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Sorry to arrive so late : an Australian friend of mime e-mailed to me this post today.Some answers to the miscellaneous questions from a French railfan :1 - At first, the TGV are running at their maximum speed of 300km/h ONLY on specifically built High Speed Lines (LGV Lignes à Grande Vitesse), where there are no road crossings, of course. On these LGV's are running only TGV train sets, excluding freight trains or low speed passenger trains. The platforms of the few stations located on these LGV's are never close to the high speed tracks. The bridges for the main roads over the high speed lines are equipped with detector in case where vehicles could fall on the tracks. These detectors are combined with the in-cab signalisation.2 - Automatic road crossings (without gatemans) are authorized only on lines where the speed of the trains does not exceed 160 km/h. They remain the most important fact of railway accident in France, but to replace all of them by road bridges will take perhaps 20 years. The SNCF (French National Railways) consider that they have to be helped by the town concils and the government to finance the replacement works, since 9 accidents on 10 are the fault of the road vehicles.3 - The accident with the truck occured on a standard (classical) line, not a high speed line, as the TGV was running at 140 km/h. The risks on these standard lines are the same for the TGV as for any other category of trains, not more, not less. But the articulated conception of the TGV always minimized the consequences of accidents (the TGV's generally don't lie on the track in case of derailment)4 - As said in other posts, the use of the horn is limited to emergency cases. European railways are generally close to houses or buildings, where people wouldn't like to hear tens and tens of horns per day. Anyway, the trains have always priority overt the road vehicles. Sorry if my English was not perfect. i hope it helped everybody to understand.

Eric

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<Sorry if my English was not perfect. i hope it helped everybody to understand.>Suffice it to say that your English is a Da. . . site better than my French which is nonexistant and your explanations were great.Thanks!

Rick

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>In France trains are not required to whistle for crossings, unless there is a perceived danger. Systematic horn use at crossings is a north american thing<
Also in Australia, where a fatal accident occured 1hour south of Sydney on Friday morning, a 4 car electric commuter train jumping tracks on a curve
Ken

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Sorry if my reply seems ambiguous.
>Systematic horn use at crossings is a north american thing>,
and in Australia.
Ken

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The relation of houses to the tracks souldn't have anything to do with the lack of horn use. North American use and Australian as Ken pointed out are used at all times day and night, in the city, suberbs, out in the desert or the middle of the wilderness.It doesn,t matter if they are near houses or not. The use of horns are to save lives and to not use them just to make some peoples live a little quieter is really iresponsible of them.

Frank Roberts
Fed Ex Freight
P&D Driver

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We're getting off-topic, but think for a moment.When you're stopped at a red traffic light, do you expect other vehicles passing through the green light to warn you of their arrival by blowing their horn? Of course not. And yet by your logic it would "save lives".The same goes for protected grade crossings: if the gates are down and the flashers are flashing, no additional measures such as horn blowing are required to drive the point home that a train is approaching.Horn blowing at protected crossings does not save lives. There are no statistics to support this and the assertion that this practice saves lives is just that, an assertion.cheers

--
Clem

http://www.tillier.net/speedworks/index.html

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Hello,
I am French train driver, more of time TGV but also other trains.
If we drive trains as the most of people here drive their cars we surely have more train crash.
For a European train driver, a stop signal mean STOP and not try to pass, so on the road a level crossing flashing red light plus a gate ARE STOP SIGNALS.
If a car or truk driver want to pass, the train horn will never stop it, and more, the systematic use of the horn make that nobody take care.
Sorry for my bad English.
JLC

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My words exactly. If you're driving a car or walking on foot and approaching a grade crossing with the gates down and/or the warning signals lit up, you MUST NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT TRYING TO PASS THE CROSSING ANYWAY, because the consequences WILL be fatal!
Dominik Mann Visit www.tssf.de - www.bahn.de - http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/ - www.eisenbahnforum.de

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>My words exactly. If you're driving a car or walking on foot
>and approaching a grade crossing with the gates down and/or
>the warning signals lit up, you MUST NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT
>TRYING TO PASS THE CROSSING ANYWAY, because the consequences
>WILL be fatal! I remember a show(Most dangerous things caught on tape or something), where a the gates when lowered, did not cover the whole road. It just covered the right side of the road since America is driven on the right side of the road. So the motorcyclist, did a zig-zag(as the other gate blocked the left of the road) and made a just 1 or 2 seconds before the train came!
In England, I think it is much safer since the gate covers the whole road and under the gate is a barrier thing so you cannot go under the gate to cross.

------My favourite LUL train------

"The next station is Chancery Lane"...........Crash! Bam! Booom!...Sends 32 people in the hospital and makes all the other 1992 stocks out of service for motor bracket replacing...

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>I remember a show(Most dangerous things caught on tape or
>something), where a the gates when lowered, did not cover
>the whole road. It just covered the right side of the road
>since America is driven on the right side of the road. So
>the motorcyclist, did a zig-zag(as the other gate blocked
>the left of the road) and made a just 1 or 2 seconds before
>the train came!
>In England, I think it is much safer since the gate covers
>the whole road and under the gate is a barrier thing so you
>cannot go under the gate to cross.
Well, there are both types of gates used on crossings in Germany, but I don't know what determines whether a crossing is to be fitted with half-width or full-width gates. I personally think full-width gates with fold-down grids on the underside are generally preferable, but then again I am aware that half-width gates might also have their merit - maybe on roads with dense traffic where the chance of a car being trapped between the gates is larger, whereas full-width gates might be used in areas frequented by pedestrians to prevent them from attempting to cross the tracks anyway. But, as I said, I don't know if there are indeed any rules for that.
Dominik Mann Visit www.tssf.de - www.bahn.de - http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/ - www.eisenbahnforum.de

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Hi,Here in the Netherlands, nearly all the gates are halfway. The danger of getting people and cars trapped between full width gates is too great.
And as nearly all the crossings in the Netherlands are automatic, it turns out that they become halfway.
There is one experiment with an automatic full width gate level crossing in Bilthoven. It has a special radar that detects if people are trapped and give special emergency signals to the trains (engineers).
In the Netherlands automatic level crossings are only allowed by 2 or less tracks.
Still a few exceptions, at Groenekan, there is an automatic level crossing with 3 tracks.With more tracks, as there are a few left on yards, full width gates are to be used. They operated at distance in a dispatcher box by "hand" (read: computer) and guarded with TV cameras.On this moment the Dutch government has a project running that all automatic level crossings with only lights and bells are to be converted to automatic level crossings with a smaller beam. The normal beam is too long for small roads.
Here in the Netherlands the only light and bell crossings are much dangerous that the crossings with beams.Sad point about the convertation program. Some kilometers of my living place, a crossing with only bells and lights was to be converted in September, 2002. The program got a delay and the planning is now Spring 2003. Some weeks ago a person was killed on that crossing.
You can imagine that causes some uproar under the local people!Dick van den Hoven

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Well, there's a crossing with full-width gates right beyond the station in my home town, and this crossing appears to have camera surveillance as well. Last week, while I was waiting on the platform, I saw the gates going down - first only the ones on the right side when seen from a car driver's perspective, and after ten or fifteen seconds the other two - probably in order to give people a chance to escape - , and while the left-side gates were going down, a woman tried to run through the crossing anyway, and then the gates suddenly stopped in order to let the woman leave the crossing. After she was of the crossing, the gates continued all the way down. I had noticed earlier that there is a pair of camera masts at that crossing, but I never knew the supervisor appears to have the option of halting the gates in case somebody is in danger of being trapped.
Dominik Mann Visit www.tssf.de - www.bahn.de - http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/ - www.eisenbahnforum.de

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I just love that French "Tchouf Tchouf", Jean ! All that is missing is a French "Woo Woo" ! Forgot what we Austrians call "Tchouf" in German ? Over to you, Dominik !O t t o

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Well, we're really getting O/T, but I'd say it would be expressed as "Tschu-Tschu" under German phonemic rules .
Dominik Mann Visit www.tssf.de - www.bahn.de - http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/ - www.eisenbahnforum.de

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Thanks anyway, Dominik !Saves me going over to the German Forum I am also an occasional reader of ! O t t oP.S. I think the Moderators and other Forum members close one eye whenever I post O/T ? Respect for the Old ?

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>P.S. I think the Moderators and other Forum members close
>one eye whenever I post O/T ? Respect for the Old ?
What is O/T?
Zach, future Trinity Railway engineer(I'm only eleven)

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>>P.S. I think the Moderators and other Forum members close
>>one eye whenever I post O/T ? Respect for the Old ?
>What is O/T?
>Zach, future Trinity Railway engineer(I'm only eleven)
> Offtopic

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