Train Artisan Argue

LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-03 AT 11:49 AM (EST)

I cant stand to argue about this Train Artisan stuff:For everyone ever thinking to get the American Classic Addon for just the Addon its ok.But who thinks that he perhaps get something extra (they say priviledged) from the Club TA page has to think twice.First: Train Artisan is the first company who sells a product which winks with extra bonus material and calls it a priviledge.Second: Train Artisan is the first company who tells you that they have to do send passwords and file links (expl. comes later) in their free time and so you sometimes have to wait x days or weeks.So to my story:
Wanted one of the extra stuff on their site and thought about donating. Thank god i found it to difficult to donate to american ORGs as a non-american. So i bought the package. Then i sent a mail for them asking to be added to that club of priviledged customers.
I heard nothing from them. As this is a priviledge club i took my time not to bother them and wait and wait and wait. After looking at their forum i found some messages from people with the same problem and the answer from TA was that they do it in their free time and the email probably get lost. Right. Must have been that.
I wrote another mail and i was lucky. I visited their site and tried to download that Train-Set i was looking for in the beginning.
There was a message that someone of this priviledged club of poeple are not so priviledged and posted the links to the files to the warez scene.
So i have to mail my password and ID to them and they would send me a link to the file.
So i wrote that mail 30 hours ago. I think its lost again.
Also my interest in that trainset has gone. And also my interest in everything they ever will produce for money or for free.Also the Amercan Classic Addon is fantastic i have to say that this is the most expensive Addon i ever bought. And i bought them all. So for everyone who wants to get it other than the Addon itself - go 3DTrains. They can do. In between of 3 hours. In their free time. To their priviledged customers.If you want something from TA - go learn how to repaint - its easier.ASC

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Train Artisan Argue [View All], marid, 10:50 AM, Jan-25-03, (0) RE%3A Train Artisan Argue, Adam3291, Jan-25-03, 11:30 AM, (1) RE: Train Artisan Argue, marid, Jan-25-03, 11:39 AM, (2) RE: Train Artisan Argue, Stumbl, Jan-25-03, 11:52 AM, (3) RE: Train Artisan Argue, SVTS, Jan-25-03, 12:46 PM, (4) RE: Train Artisan Argue, pacmancreator, Jan-25-03, 01:00 PM, (5) RE: Train Artisan Argue, Buddy, Jan-25-03, 01:38 PM, (6) RE: Train Artisan Argue, Adam3291, Jan-25-03, 02:07 PM, (7) RE: Train Artisan Argue, jpmurd, Jan-25-03, 02:25 PM, (8) RE: Train Artisan Argue, marid, Jan-25-03, 02:46 PM, (9) RE: Train Artisan Argue, Joe_Shalbotnik, Jan-25-03, 02:58 PM, (12) RE: Train Artisan Argue, marid, Jan-25-03, 03:24 PM, (16) RE: Train Artisan Argue, CRSD40, Jan-25-03, 07:21 PM, (38) RE: Train Artisan Argue, heffedhome, Jan-25-03, 02:48 PM, (10) RE: Train Artisan Argue, KeltikSylk, Jan-25-03, 02:55 PM, (11) RE: Train Artisan Argue, shadowr434, Jan-25-03, 03:04 PM, (13) RE: Train Artisan Argue, marid, Jan-25-03, 03:07 PM, (14) RE: Train Artisan Argue, bnsfrr, Jan-25-03, 03:17 PM, (15) RE: Train Artisan Argue, KeltikSylk, Jan-25-03, 04:12 PM, (17) RE: Train Artisan Ague, downside, Jan-25-03, 04:28 PM, (18) RE: Train Artisan Argue, marid, Jan-25-03, 04:33 PM, (19) RE: Train Artisan Argue, KeltikSylk, Jan-25-03, 05:30 PM, (25) Personal Rebuttal, Verne, Jan-25-03, 04:50 PM, (20) RE: Personal Rebuttal, tbirk, Jan-25-03, 05:04 PM, (21) RE: Personal Rebuttal, downside, Jan-25-03, 05:06 PM, (22) RE: Personal Rebuttal, JoeDiamond, Jan-25-03, 05:06 PM, (23) RE: Personal Rebuttal, geekman, Jan-25-03, 05:14 PM, (24) RE: Personal Rebuttal, marid, Jan-25-03, 05:39 PM, (27) RE: Personal Rebuttal, KeltikSylk, Jan-25-03, 06:12 PM, (31) Date facts, Verne, Jan-25-03, 06:17 PM, (35) RE: Personal Rebuttal, chucksc, Jan-26-03, 01:29 AM, (72) RE: Personal Rebuttal, Cell0518, Jan-25-03, 10:20 PM, (50) RE: Personal Rebuttal, KeltikSylk, Jan-25-03, 05:38 PM, (26) RE: Personal Rebuttal, xlspecial261, Jan-25-03, 05:48 PM, (28) RE: Personal Rebuttal, Shepley1935, Jan-25-03, 05:53 PM, (29) RE: Personal Rebuttal, sstyrnol, Jan-25-03, 06:07 PM, (30) RE: Personal Rebuttal, marid, Jan-25-03, 06:16 PM, (34) RE: Personal Rebuttal, sooner, Jan-25-03, 07:15 PM, (37) RE: Personal Rebuttal, dgauci, Jan-25-03, 06:13 PM, (32) RE: Personal Rebuttal, ctillier, Jan-25-03, 06:15 PM, (33) RE: Personal Rebuttal, dgauci, Jan-25-03, 06:30 PM, (36) RE: Personal Rebuttal, KC_Jones, Jan-25-03, 08:10 PM, (43) RE: Personal Rebuttal, delamaize, Jan-26-03, 00:26 AM, (68) RE: Train Artisan Argue, ACyLum, Jan-25-03, 07:32 PM, (39) RE: Train Artisan Argue, xlspecial261, Jan-25-03, 08:46 PM, (44) RE: Train Artisan Argue, Shepley1935, Jan-25-03, 10:27 PM, (51) RE: Train Artisan Argue, xlspecial261, Jan-25-03, 10:58 PM, (56) RE: Train Artisan Argue, chucksc, Jan-26-03, 01:33 AM, (73) RE: Train Artisan Argue, leesome1226, Jan-25-03, 07:54 PM, (40) RE: Train Artisan Argue, CRSD40, Jan-25-03, 08:03 PM, (41) RE: Train Artisan Argue, BNSF4723, Jan-25-03, 08:03 PM, (42) RE: Train Artisan Argue, pwillard, Jan-25-03, 08:53 PM, (45) RE: Train Artisan Argue, marid, Jan-25-03, 09:07 PM, (46) RE: Train Artisan Argue, Joe_Shalbotnik, Jan-25-03, 09:47 PM, (47) RE: Train Artisan Argue, darkfyre, Jan-25-03, 09:48 PM, (48) RE: Train Artisan Argue, Adam3291, Jan-25-03, 10:07 PM, (49) RE: Train Artisan Argue, midwestrail, Jan-25-03, 10:46 PM, (52) RE: Train Artisan Argue, SVTS, Jan-25-03, 10:47 PM, (53) RE: Train Artisan Argue, marid, Jan-25-03, 10:53 PM, (54) RE: Train Artisan Argue, dgauci, Jan-25-03, 10:55 PM, (55) RE: Train Artisan Argue, Hack, Jan-25-03, 11:19 PM, (57) RE: Train Artisan Argue, marid, Jan-25-03, 11:31 PM, (58) RE: Train Artisan Argue, Adam3291, Jan-25-03, 11:35 PM, (59) RE: Train Artisan Argue, marid, Jan-25-03, 11:39 PM, (60) RE: Train Artisan Argue, Adam3291, Jan-25-03, 11:47 PM, (63) RE: Train Artisan Argue, dgauci, Jan-25-03, 11:42 PM, (62) RE: Train Artisan Argue, Cell0518, Jan-25-03, 11:41 PM, (61) RE: Train Artisan Argue, midwestrail, Jan-26-03, 00:06 AM, (64) RE: Train Artisan Argue, Hack, Jan-26-03, 00:14 AM, (65) RE: Train Artisan Argue, Adam3291, Jan-26-03, 00:18 AM, (66) RE: Train Artisan Argue, SVTS, Jan-26-03, 00:43 AM, (71) RE: Train Artisan Argue, delamaize, Jan-26-03, 00:19 AM, (67) RE: Train Artisan Argue, delamaize, Jan-26-03, 00:29 AM, (69) RE: Train Artisan Argue, midwestrail, Jan-26-03, 00:35 AM, (70) RE: Train Artisan Argue, Macster, Jan-26-03, 01:45 AM, (74)

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-03 AT 12:29 PM (EST)

DELETED MY ADAMAdam

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-03 AT 11:45 AM (EST)

As you do know better why bother?How many do you think they sell at a day? If they get tons of e-mails then perhaps its time for a spam-killer.Also i understand your fear you do not have to worry about that your goldmine of models for your 5 bucks donation will be harmed by my mail.ASC

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-03 AT 12:32 PM (EST)

deleted by stumbl

"I do what my Rice Krispies tell me to do"

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IVE ALREADY SAID THE HECK WITH THEM. I THINK THEY WAY THEY DO BUSSINESS IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST JOKES AROUND. THEY TOOK MOST OF THIER GOOD STUFF AWAY FROM THE FREE DOWNLOADS SECTION, AND THE ONLY WAY TO FIND OUT WHAT IS IN THE CLUB SECTION IS TO JOIN UP, AND AS YOU STATED, THAT IN ITSELF IS AS BIG OF A JOKE AS I THOUGHT IT TO BE. TA NEEDS TO DO A LITTLE BIT OF REVAMPING. I THINK THEY FORGET THIS IS A GAME, AND INSTEAD OF MAKING IT EASY TO GET THIER STUFF, THEY WANT YOU TO GO THRU RINGS AND HOOPS. IT'S JUST NOT WORTH IT. THIER IS MUCH BETTER STUFF OUT THERE, FREE WARE AND PAY WARE, AND I DON'T NEED TO WASTE MY TIME GETTING IT LIKE YOU DO WITH TA. GET A CLUE TA, YOUR LOSING CUSTOMERS EVERYDAY.

Chris Bogley
Ft. Huachuca AZ
http://groups.msn.com/tehachapi

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-03 AT 01:01 PM (EST)

>THEY WANT YOU TO GO THRU RINGS AND HOOPSLol! When they first started requiring you to pony up some cash to download stuff, I thought it was a noble idea. I mean, donating a measly $5 to New York firefighters to download a whole bunch of awesome STUFF??? WRONG-O!!!!! First they overcharged for a pack of only 3 trains repainted in a couple of color schemes, they could at least have included a route for that price, then they update their site maybe once a month at most, only to hand out a repaint of a train that has already had other 50,000 other repaints, and then if you did not buy that American Classics pack, then they say that you can't come in, EVEN THOUGH YOU GAVE THEM THE $5 THEY WANTED! They have never sent me a reply on that I donated to charity, and then every month they just crank out one or maybe two repaints! At least at Train-Sim.com, when you sign up to be a first class member, you just put in your required information, bada-boom. You're on.

-Matt, Future Cirque du Soleil musician-Creating Pac-Man comics for the humorless people out there

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I found trying to get into Auran just as bad and on about the third stage of their rings and hoops gave up on them also.
Byron De Winton

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You have to remember, they are people to dude. They have jobs just like you and me. Modeling is not there only job dude. Cut TA some slack on this one.Adam

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We have to thank the WORM who gave out the links, for the current problems at TA. I hope the forum moderator shot him, and TA files Criminal Charges against him. Meanwhile us Law abiding citizens have been ******* again. John

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> We have to thank the WORM who gave out the links, for the
>current problems at TA. I hope the forum moderator shot
>him, and TA files Criminal Charges against him. Meanwhile
>us Law abiding citizens have been ******* again.
>John Sure. But thats also bad business. If they had instead of building instable club sections just a pass and id protected sub web with also pass and id protected download links they have not had this problems. The message about the problem is from the 20th. But instead of investing some hours to change it to something like this they waste time sorting mails of file whishes from spam and pissed customers.So thats no excuse. ASC

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Let's see, you have been a member here since Jan 17,2003 and a grand total of four posts. I also noticed you joined TA's forum under the same name on Jan 23,2003.Concerned customer or simply someone with a different agenda?JS

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-03 AT 03:30 PM (EST)

No just pissed. I have this package 4 weeks now. I have the info to read the info that tells me to give info what train package i want since Jan 23 (yeah thats the same day and i joined TA forum to ask about my ID and pass and the mail i sent before). I mailed them with the wanted files same day. Now its 2 days ago and i simply do not believe in it anymore.Have to say again that i am lucky with American Classic. I was looking for trains that are only available as club ware. If they had them to sell, i had just paid and everything would be ok.And no. The account on this site and my pseudo have nothing to do with TA. You can find it also in other forums and it will probably me.ASC

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Just because he just joined doesn't mean he hasn't been hanging around the Train Sim community for awhile.

-----------------------------

Kyle Norek, Milepost 76 on the NS Buffalo Line
MSN Messenger: crsd40@hotmail.com

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Hmm....I just bought the american classics add-on. Like you, I discovered the "club" downloads are gone. However, I also know that they're doing what they can. Your beef isn't with them, it's with however posted the links.-Jeff

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-03 AT 02:59 PM (EST)

Guess I'm not paying attention. What happened at TA?

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-03 AT 03:20 PM (EST)

edit for spelling
here is a message i posted at their site,I'm sure i wont get any response(I'm a little perplexed as to why you would punish all the club members for something one person did. If you caught the individual than why close off the downloads area. This seems like a very extreme measure to me. I understand that we can get the items from you if we e-mail you but with all due respect e-mailing TA officials is next to impossible if you want a response.I know from a look at the forums here that you most likely won't be responding or you'll lock this thread because you don't like it but I needed to speak my peace. I hope you gentlemen will consider being more customer friendly in the future because as a retail company you are surely lacking.Take a lesson from Marc at "3dtrains" if you want to do this business right.)

I too am very disappointed with TA as we all have seen the way an add-on business should be run but alas I don't think anything will change with them.They have stars in their eyes now.

Frank Roberts
Fed Ex Freight
P&D Driver

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-03 AT 03:11 PM (EST)

I wish they put all their stuff an a cd and make a price for it.
Because i am willing to pay. If they do i with just trains of course.
Because i do not trust them. Have perhaps to travel from train station to train station to find the key for the door where it has been stored.ASC

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In the end its their loss...
But for now, this debate is the same as the TRAINZ vs. MSTS, it will go nowhere and will just upset everyone.
-MIKE-Model Railroader, Railfan, and MSTS user
Youth Member La Mesa Model Railroad Club, San Deigo CA
"Good Times"

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I just flipped over to TA and everything seems fine. I was able to get right to the Club section with no problem...Am I missing something?Best thirty bucks I ever spent!
;

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Yep - you didn't try and download - all the files are being 'relocated'Bill

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Hey cool.Now do some magic and download something.Yes you missed that the downloads are gone.And to take it a step further before you come back to tell us that you can read the filenames. Click on one. And what helps the most:
read the first page.ASC

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-03 AT 05:30 PM (EST)

You're right...I just went in the first time and saw the filenames and thought everything looks okay.Then I tried to download the Northern Pacific trainset. Thought my browser broke...I can see why there's all this fuss now. What idiot gave the passcodes away?Every time TA does something "nice" they get screwed over. Last time everybody took the stuff without donating. "Sigh" Where do people get off stealing things?

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Ok, this is a personal response and in no way reflects the opinions or thoughts of the Train Artisan Team collectively, or its members individually.That being said, I want to state that I for one, am personally getting fed up with the sanctimonious BS that has been posted here over the months by arrogant, demanding and unappreciative individuals. I am proudly a member of TA, and as such, I put well in excess of forty hours each week – over and above my personal job and away from my family, contributing my efforts toward TA downloads and the Train-Sim community in general. All I have ever expected in return is that if people like what I have contributed, they make a measly $5.00 donation to a non-profit organization! Unlike some other non-TA developers, I have not asked for a penny to be put in my pocket! And yet, as part of the TA Team, I am continuously being subject on these forums to repeated sarcasm, criticism, attack and innuendo.This demand for “instant gratification” is getting out of hand! Not only do these people want everything for free, but they want it instantly and with no effort on their part. Well in my opinion, life just ain’t like that. At least, mine never has been. Where is it written that outside my family, I . . . or anyone else for that matter, personally OWES, INSTANTLY, anyone anything . . .FOR FREE? I, like the other TA Team members, gladly OFFER the community the benefit of my skills, time and effort. On its FREE downloads, TA puts minimal conditions on obtaining those benefits and none of those conditions in any way benefits me, or the other Team members! I am not complaining about that and am happy to be able to contribute . . . BUT when I get the access to my efforts pushed back in my face, I get a little pissed. It’s like giving someone a gift , only to have them complain about the wrapping and the fact that they have to untie the ribbon!Taking it personally? You bet I am. When you put hours into “giving” something to somebody and all you get in return is unwarranted BS, it is hard not to. This current thread is pushing the envelope! Many of you might not know, but in addition to my contributions to TA’s downloads, I maintain the Club TA Member database and spend numerous additional hours each week hand processing membership applications. The original poster here bitches because he had to wait, what he terms “excessively,” for access to the FREE products I helped produce. Well, let’s put it out in the open. He, in fact, waited just over 36 hours for his membership! This is documented. I’m sorry, but I do not stay up, waiting in front of my monitor, 24 hours a day with fingers hovering over the keyboard just so I can instantly process requests for FREE stuff.As for the delays caused by the temporary suspension of the download links from the Club TA site, an alternative download method was instituted, not to punish, the link poster, but to prevent the potentially thousands of “freeloaders”, who now have the links, from gaining access to the products they didn’t have a legitimate right to. We are indeed working on correcting this problem, but again let me remind you that providing access to FREE stuff isn’t the only thing we have to do in our lives. Occasionally other developer’s sites have been down for an extended period . . . even these forums have been down for whatever reason. Do they get the BS that TA has received? NO!I would remind some of these dissenters that Train Simulator is indeed just a “game”. It isn’t a world revolving activity. It isn’t even a monumental lifestyle factor (if it is to some, as it indeed seems to be, may I suggest that they “get a life”).I will happily acknowledge that there are literally thousands of individuals who DO seem to appreciate what I and the other members of the TA team try to do . . . and for that I am grateful. However, when I read some of this BS, I must honestly say that I sometimes ask myself why I am taking the time away from the rest of my life, if this is how it is appreciated. -Verne

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Verne,I whole-heartedly agree with you. Lacking the talent and knowledge myself, I am extremely appreciative of the efforts of yourself and the rest of the team at TA.Tim Birkeland

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-03 AT 05:07 PM (EST)

Well said Verne. I am one of the many who have had the benefit of the work of you and your colleagues and am grateful for it.Unfortunately what you are witnessing is the rants of the 'I want it NOW' brigade.BillEDITED for grammar.

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I couldn't have said it better myself. Verne's statement pretty muchs sums up my thoughts as well.Conn McCarthy
Train Artisan

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Attaboy Verne,I don't know what the hell you or your cohorts did to pi$$ of the troops originally, but they sure have been on your case. Just when you think everybody's happy and somewhat satisfied, all hell breaks loose again and the poop hits the fan.I don't know what to tell you, other than to consider the source and ignore it. Yeah, I know that's hard to do, especially when it's free stuff they're pi$$ing about.Just remember, there's a lot more of us who think you're doing a bang-up job and really do appreciate all the hard work you're doing for us. In the end, it's not what anybody else thinks, it's about the good feeling you get inside when you do something and it turns out good. And as for the value of AC, I personally feel I got more than my money's worth. I like it, I don't regret it, and I'd buy it again in a heartbeat.A message from the silent majority -Larry Steiner

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Funny. From my post to a reaction just 6 hours. Amazing.Free stuff ist stuff you get for nothing. But as life teaches nothing is for free. And also not a membership to a club which is bounded to a donation or a product you have to buy to get it.So what you want to tell us? That you build that trains just to make us happy. That the organizations you wanted to help with the donations are chosen with closed eyes in the yellow pages?And to my 36 hour membership. I wrote the first letter at the 28th of december. I haven given already up because no answer was coming. I read about a new distibution and wrote again. Nothing was coming. I subscribed to the messageboard and read that posts are lost. I finally managed to get a reaction from you. I wrote another letter asking for links for some files. Another 36 hours and still no message.You needed just 6 hours to reply here.I know i am a bad boy. So i am on your black list now and would not get it. No problem. Put it there where the sun dont shines.Over and out.ASC

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Despite the fact that I'll be labeled a kiss up, I thought I'd throw in a sentence or two.TA's American Classics is the only payware I own, except for MSTS itself. I purchased it because my original ESE disappeared in a disk crash and there was no other way to get it. I like the original Hudson enough to spend the bucks. The other locomotives were "gravy", to use the American slang for bonus.As an amateur "developer" I can really appreciate the work involved, but I'm not sure what it's worth. Many 3D locomotives take as long or longer to create than their real counterparts. We are talking hand crafted brass models, not mass production. What's the fair market value for all that time and effort and skill. Take Julians K-36, for example. It represents about 9 months to a year of blood sweat and tears. I'll bet that's more work than even the best Korean or Japanese brass builder puts in most of their models. They're items cost thousands in todays market. The K-36 is FREE! This could mean the brass engines are over priced. It could mean also Julian might be considered crazy for not charging something for an equivalent gem.Now consider that the typical mass produced Athearn steamer costs about $150 and that Broadway Limited models average about $200. These are plastic replicas, not brass, but still high quality, realistic replicas with all the latest electronic gizmos. It stands to reason that TA or Juilan or NALW could ask the same price for their products.They don't. At the very worst, we pay $30 for a multiple sets of engines and passenger cars. If these were mass produced physical models the "street" value might easily top a thousand bucks.Ah! you say...They sell software, not model trains!There's the rub. Software is oft times not considered as valuable as real things. The way the computer culture has evolved, companies that charge realistic or comparable prices for realistic or comparable development don't sell very much product. People expect software to be cheap, or free. If they feel it costs too much, a vast majority of people will steal the software rather than pay for it. That seems to be the way the market works. Only corporations will pay real money for computer applications. Folks like you and me aren't willing. In some cases we're not even able. When your a kid, or a poor adult, even $30.00 can mean a difference. Of course, that's not the major issue.Given a choice, you and I will opt for the free software every time. This means freeware, shareware, or (dare I say it?) pirateware. The proliferation of free software from all these sources is what has driven the computer into every social nook and cranny of our modern society. In some ways, the piracy has actually done more to promote computer use that any other single factor. It isn't right, but it seems to be the way things really are.Which brings us back to TA. Once upon a time TA gave the software away. They hadn't meant to, of course. It just worked out that way. You could go onto their site and take anything you wanted. The only thing they asked in return was a small donation to one of several charities. Perhaps they were a bit naieve about it. They depended on a honor system. They chose to believe that people were basically honest and good hearted. "They chose poorly", it would seem. Folks dropped by, took one of each and left. Charity? What charity?Like the Goodwill trailer in the parking lot, the TA site was purloined. Models poured out, hardly anything came back.So TA wised up and reversed the process. You donate first, and then we let you have the model. If you want, you can buy one of our add-ons first, then you can have all these others. Fair enough?Try to imagine General Motors operating the same way. You buy one Cavalier, or throw some money in the bucket for the homeless,
and they give you access into the dealership anytime you want. You can drive out with as many cars as your garage can hold, free of charge. I think it would be very hard to get anywhere near a GM dealership. The waiting lines would be hundreds of miles long.Now, some inconsiderate miscreant has shafted them again. They should not have to armor plate their site. Folks should have more consideration. There's little excuse for stealing. Simulate train models are not a basic human need like bread or water. As for the paying customers, can't people shell out the five bucks without pissin' about it? Can't they just bide their time? Are they gonna die because they don't have the blue 4-6-2. Heavens, what will the rest of the crowd say? That's like being caught wearing K-Mart sneakers!Instead they have to go mouthin' off because Mommy and Daddy never told them "NO".Well, now. It seems we must endeavor to learn that there are times when one must wait for something one really wants. By the way, if you think waiting for access to TA models takes a while, try building one of these babies yourself. You'll be there for a lot longer than a few weeks. I guarantee you'll learn the meaning of the word "patience".TA may be quirky, and like everybody else, they do things we don't quite understand. Not wrong, just different. They are overworked because of their novel sales approach of giving their customers the moon and the sky and the kitchen sink. Now they've got more challenges. Back the hell off and let them sort this out.Regardless of all this bitchin', there are few places on the planet where you can a better value. It's a wonder they turn a profit. Maybe they don't. Maybe they do it because they like doing it. Just like the rest of us.Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to run my new Champion trainset. Bye!

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For the record, we have no way of knowing if, or where you may have sent earlier e-mails, however, we maintain an automated log of incoming e-mails and there is no record of an e-mail from you prior to Wednesday, January 22, 2003 at 1:44 AM. Your Club TA membership codes were sent to you on Thursday, January 23, 2003 at 8:02 PM. Hence our comment regarding the 36 hour response.-Verne

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-26-03 AT 01:30 AM (EST)

Look Troll,
TA and its members are respected members of the community...
If you don't like the way your application was processed ask for a refund and don't let the door hit you in the a$$ on the way out!
As far as I am concerned don't bother downloading or using anything by NALW... Your business isn't welcome here! I too am sick and tired of the constant sniping by non-producing bottom feeders who demand instant gratification with out any respect or reguard for the authors! I have instituted a policy of ignoring e-mails to NALW with the above tone... I see from his web site that Rich Garber has too... If you can't keep a civil tounge in your mouth then keep it shut! My attitude towards people like you is "You are cordially invited to perform an indecency on yourself!"
Flame Off!Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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EXACTLY. You hit the nail on the head. I know that this stuff takes many hours of work and a LOT of patience to do what you guys do. I appreciate all the hard work you guys do. W/o it, Train sim would not be the same. I hated to hear about the downloads, but It is sad when everyone loses something for a few ppl who don't care. Keep up your great work. If this person doesn't appreciate, which they obviously don't, I know I and many other railfans are all more than happy w/ what great stuff you guys produce.My 2 cents,
Chris
Content Manager @ MOWShed.com / Webmaster @ Midwest-rail.com
MSTS Rocks
TA Please do 611 & 1218

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Damn Sam! Couldn't of said it better myself.If folks get this way about they's toys, I can't imagine how they react to real life. Maybe they don't know they make medication for that now...You guys do great work. I hope you get this sorted out okay.

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http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/User_files/a

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I don't mind paying for things. I have probably spent $500 (just a guess. Don't feel like sorting through the charge cards) over the past three months on stuff for MSTS.However, I have checked out the hoops you have to jump through to get in TA's "Club" and I just don't feel it is worth it. It seems there must be an easier way....btw-While I haven't donated money to an institution lately, until very recently I was donating about 30 or more hours a week of my time to Illinois Railway Museum. That doesn't count though.Todd Jones

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-03 AT 06:10 PM (EST)

Well said...Damn well said Sir! The latest situation with Club TA is nothing more than a minor irritation caused by a theif. From the day that TA came on to the property I have had nothing but a great relationship with Cy Lum and the "Back Shop Gang"! When I have had a question I E-mail Cy directly and usually receive a reply within a couple of working days. I would suggest that Marid and Todd follow the same tack.

Don Shepley-Chicago
"Professional Curmudgeon"

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Hey,
I fully agree with you. Being a TA Club member myself, I myself sometimes think, you could update your site a little bit more often! BUT!!!: on the other side, it is just as you said: IT IS JUST SOMETHING YOU DO FOR FUN, RELAXATION AND CREATIVITY!Now, you guys over there (especially the original poster!): Nobody forced you to buy or donate anything. Nobody asked you to visit TA's site. If you want something you'll just have to wait and see... And appreciate their work.I personally have no time to get myself behind TSM or so to contribute to this community. But I take the best out of it and I am more than glad that I can support these busy people with the LEAST I can provide, that is money.You see, I have a little more than 100 posts. Yet I am member since the very beginning. I bought MSTS when I was over in New Zealand and when it was first available there. But what some folks have still to learn here is the following: Shut up, think twice, and if you still think you got to say something, the speak with common sense.If you want to reduce the support of members of this community or if you want them to stop contributing their creations, which are most often little pieces of art, then continue to complain and complain and nitpick and so on... You will see, what happens!!! It will mean, that people share their work privately, that people like me will not longer have any profits out of it (as I am supporting them!!!) and you will end up very lonely (at least within the realm of MSTS, if not even in "real" life, if you're behaving there as you're here...).Verne, I ask you, no, I beg you to just ignore those folks! They are just childish, aren't they? When I bought the TA American Classics pack, I was amazed! Your postcards are hanging on the wall in my room (even my girl-friend says, they're looking "not too bad" ). You folks at TA are doing good work. As I said above, I think, you could update your site a little bit more often, which does not mean to release stuff more often. What you are doing is art, so it does take it's time. But I am very sure, that you have lots of supporters like me, who just like your work and who are most willing to support you!This is what I think and may those ignorant people shut up next time!SebastianP.S.: Hey Verne, I don't know, if you could need any help at TA. I said, you could update your site more often. Do you need a person for PR? I have some knowledge of web design, so if you want, I could help you! It's just a suggestion, but it's definately for real!!!P.P.S.: Please keep up the good work! I am still and eagerly waiting for your announced releases!!!

---
Sebastian
sebastian.styrnol@gmx.de

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Let me do a little translation of that blurb:FEAR. FEAR. FEAR. Please do not stop give me my free stuff. FEAR. FEAR.
And so on.
And so on.
P.P.S.: Please keep up the good work! I am still and eagerly waiting for your announced releases!!!
(Needs no translation)ASC

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I think a lot of this grousing about TA results from their habit of announcing new projects as if their release were imminent, and then falling silent for months - examples being some Verne Horton repaints and the promised new GP30's. If you think about it, there are a number of first rate freeware and payware modelers and 'skinners - Jason Dilworth, John Peterson, Ron Paludan and Ken Martello are only the first few who come to mind - who also go for weeks or months without posting new stuff, and no one gripes. That's because they don't post release announcements then fail to deliver. Still, I hate to see TA raked like this when they've done so much for the hobby - and much of it completely gratis. Certainly their conversion of the ESE from freeware, or whatever it was, to payware was not particularly adroite, from a public relations standpoint. Recently I read through a string with folks comparing TA's stuff to 3DTrains'. By contrast, 3DTrains has obviously made excellent use of freeware goodies to stimulate payware demand, and I'll agree that Marc & Co. have set stunning new standards for MSTS. But it was those shiny TA models by Cyrus et Cie. that first got me hooked on the hobby! And you can't deny that their Pacific 4-6-2, released just last month, was superb. When they released the new Northern Pacific trainset the other day, though, I couldn't help feeling it had been lying in the bottom of their closet for months! But I say let's give 'em a break, appreciate what they've done and hope for more and better.

bud

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Simple solution to all of this. Go totally payware, no more clubs or memberships for donations and if TA wants to stay non-profit they can then donate all their proceeds to whatever charity they desire.If someone wants their stuff they can pay for it. The individual amount doesn't matter, divide what they desire as a yearly donation by how many downloads they make available in a given year. Everyone understands that concept, no more worrying about the I want it now for free crowd, pay or shut up. If TA wants to donate the money to their charities so they are still in essence making their individual contributions as volunteers that's up to them.You can never please everyone no matter what you do, if you're doing this for the love of the hobby ignore the malcontents and be happy in your good work. If your doing this for universal praise from the masses you still will never please everyone.

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Verne,I understand your frustration, but please open your mind to the following dissent.TA has both a freeware department and a payware department. IMHO, you can't expect love and gratitude (from the freeware / donationware department) at the same time as lucre (from the payware department). TA has got to get off the fence and pick a side, or else stuff like this will just keep on happening.If you choose to take time away from your family to create freeware or donationware, that's your choice and I think you are entitled to a certain amount of respect and gratitude on the part of your users.If you choose to sell a product and advertise as part of that product free access to additional addons, the customer is king, period. While respect and gratitude from your customers is nice, you are no longer entitled to these things and should not demand them.I think if you try to have it both ways, you have to be prepared for a situation such as this.My intent was not to offend, only to offer my analysis of this incident as an external observer.cheers

--
Clem

http://www.tillier.net/speedworks/index.html

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Frankly, equally well said.

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It's not BS. Going through hoops is BS.Offer your product, indicate the price and what you get, and that's that.

Steve
a.k.a. KC_Jones

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verne,
I love you work and I couldn't agree with your statements more. see my next post for the rest of my responce.


Delamaize
"Long Live High Speed Rail In The USA"

Chasis Builder, Boiler Builder, and Builder of any other parts that need to be fabricated.

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Wow!Well, I am glad Verne was able to share his feelings about this. It is rare that we do let people know about the human side of Train Artisan. Sometimes, you gotta wonder what its like to walk in our shoes.While I do admit that for some individuals, Train Artisan probably won't meet their "expectation" for responsiveness. For a large majority of our members, we have been doing just fine. We really do try - alot of our members are good people who we want to help.It may surprize you to know that the operation of the website is on a volunteer basis. Neither myself nor any of the TA members are paid to maintain or create content for the site. The objects that you see are labors of love that we've created because we enjoy the hobby. Its stuff that we create on our time off that is not for commercial product. We are just sharing our work with those who we feel would enjoy them as well.Hmmm. "Jumping through hoops...." as someone said....- well, I guess that is much more painful than having to spend weeks creating the locomotive in the first place..... Again, Our goal of the website is not to get as many people as possible. Our goal is to have fun and collect a group of people who enjoy the locomotives that we build without giving us too much drama.

We'll reward those people who show patience, understanding and support with some really nice items that we've got coming around the corner. Give us our time and space to do our work, and you'll be amazed at what you'll be able to have access to....we're excited!If you don't have the patience or understanding then...I'll admit it - we're NOT the group for you! Save yourself the agony and ignore us! Please!Sure eveyone's entitled to their opinions. If you like our stuff great! Come on by and have fun with us. If you don't that's fine too. Here's a little known fact...I thought I'd share it because it's very funny! I actually don't go out of my way to impede threads like these - even though they may seem to appear bad. Why? As much as these threads try to draw people away from Train Artisan, they actually attract more people. Why? Everybody loves controversy. It makes people curious...so curious that they must jump over to our site to check out what the hell is going on for themselves...why are we so "evil". People come by, start to find out what we are really about and stay. We also seem to get more members that way too.So - here's a little secret...if you want to have any real affect....just ignore us! no drama for you - No drama for anyone - Stop your torture and don't even think about us....we promise not to think about you either. fair is fair Now
I would like to take the time and give a big "Thank you" to all of those members who have shown us patience, understanding and given us great support! While Verne does express frustration, he, as well as the rest of Train Artisan, don't stay that way for very long at all. Why? Because we are constantly reminded of the support that we have from the large majority of members that we have. Thank you - your emails and messages do mean alot to us and serve as the main "fuel" for the work that we do!Cyrus Lum
Train Artisan

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"If you don't have the patience or understanding then...I'll admit it - we're NOT the group for you! Save yourself the agony and ignore us! Please!"Hmmmmm. Pay your money and be happy with whatever service you may or may not get, without giving us any "drama"?I think not.A good comparison, as someone else mentioned I think, would be TA and 3dtrains; Both do payware and freeware. (TA's, as mentioned above isn't really free...)How many complaints do you see about 3dtrains here?Zilch.This is a monthly thing it seems for TA. Perhaps TA could learn something from others in this business.And after that apparently ego driven post, I certainly won't be jumping through any hoops to join the TA "Club".Todd Jones

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Todd,I'm not sure of the reason why you continue to refer to TA as a business. To the best of my knowledge it is not a "for profit
organization"! If you do not like the way it conducts the way it offers its projects to the public that is certainly within your right to pick and choose! There are a lot of people who are happy with TA and that is our choice. It is time for you to let go of this bone of contention. You have had your 15 minutes of flame and glory. What have you given to MSTS?

Don Shepley-Chicago
"Professional Curmudgeon"

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It has a product on stores shelves. Where the profit goes, whether it be their pockets or to non profits, makes no difference. Sounds like a business.They offer access to their free downloads if you buy American Classics according to the website. However, the gentleman that started this thread obviously had some problems with this. Yes, email does get lost at times. Things get hosed up now and then. Understandable.However, and this is the problem I have with TA, is the fact they want to run this "business" as if it were a "club". Yes, we will take your money and allow you in our forums, downloads, etc, but don't say anything bad about us. Don't complain or question us when we say something will be out and it doesn't show up for months.Sorry, but if you are going to charge or ask people to spend money before allowing access to your products, you better be ready to field some complaints.And, you should accept complaints and try to solve the problem in a courteous way instead of bitching about how people are a bunch of ingrates that want everything for free, how hard you work on this or that, etc. Don't get me wrong. I appreciate what they have done for the community. I merely am pointing out some things they could do better.I'm sure it will fall on deaf ears however.As far as my "15 minutes of fame", I hardly consider posting here an ego boost. I come here to enjoy myself and learn things about the sim. I will post my opinion on subjects that interest me as they come along. Pro or con.And "What have I given to MSTS?" has nothing to do with anything. If I offered a locomotive for download I would permitted to post my opinion without malice? I fail to see where that train of thought goes.Much like someone saying a poster has no credibilty since they only have 60 odd posts. Best,
Todd

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Tell you what Todd forget us too while you are at it!Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-03 AT 08:28 PM (EST)

These are my personal feelings and comments, not TA's.As I'm sitting here thinking about what to write, I came up with two approaches. Sure I could go off at serveral people that have been annoying me the last few months, ranting and raving about how basiclly all the hours I have put into TA are for naught. Sure, I could do that but what would it achieve? So I decided to take this approach.I still can remember the day I got MSTS clear as day, I thought it was amazing that some large company had put forth all the money and time that it takes to develop a mainstream game. I remember thinking to myself what it means to this hobby, this love of trains that so many people have. I also remember thinking that somehow this would change the way that I look at things, the way I act etc. June 23rd was the date I first emailed Cyrus Lum after seeing his post of a wonderful looking 4-6-4 Hudson on the TS Fansite message board. It was a simple email telling him how great it looked and asking if there was anything I could help with. From there it seemed that I was walking on air. On July 1st, 2001 the ESE was released and this whole madness started. I happened to be away for that week and didn't get back to the 5th of July to find messages upon messages of how great it was, sure like any other person I was quite happy with those but I was always wondering what more could I do. Over the course of the next 5 months I worked with some very nice people such as John Fowlis, Cliff Timm and Marc Nelson. Then came Sept 11th, what a day. It affected me and I know some other TA members in very deep ways. Just like other Americans we wanted to do our part to help those who lost so much, so when the ESE V2 came out it was thought that the best way to help others would be to have those who used the software donate to those effected. I continued to work with such fine people as Rob Easterday and Conn McCarthy and Verne Horton. In January of 2002 I was presented with the great chance to create something that would be sold in stores, the American Classics package. Never in my life had I thought that I would have helped to create something that would be sold down at the local Best Buy or EB. The development of the American Classics package was an amazing ammount of fun but it seemed like as it hit stores and we opened up Club TA everything went downhill and has come to this. Moving on...Over the past year and a half I have been privledged to meet some of the finest people I could have ever met. Through TA I met Verne Horton, a person who is extremely caring and is helping me out with a great letter for which I could never repay him. Also though TA I met Cyrus Lum, one who has taught me how to run a business in both good times and bad. Through TA I have met Rob Easterday, who has always handed down great knowledge of railroading and 80's rock. Through TA I've met Conn McCarthy, who has always been a calming influence with great comments. Through TA I've met Cameron Lashley, who I've thoroughly enjoyed beating in fantasy football but whose team beat my Jets. Indirectly through TA I've met Richard Allen who has become a best friend and has made my dream of an eastern/western website come true. Just from the Train-Sim community I've met tons of people. John/Bridget Rosh who always share knowledge with me, Kevin A who is always good for a laugh and Judd Spittler who gives great photo advice and can break things at will. How about Jason Dilworth? Tim Kent? Pete Willard? Brian B? John Peterson? Bob B? Chuck S? and so many others who escape my mind right now as I write this. So how does this all relate to this big mess? I have to say that if I was to be exiled from this community right this second, I would gladly remember the great times that I've shared with everyone around here. The Train-Sim community that I know is the one that banded together after Sept 11 and donated some $16,000 through TA to help those whose lives were changed so much. I know that this community isn't one that scabbles over this repaint being wrong, getting into Club TA is to hard or this person pisses me off.Lastly, I want to thank everyone for the great experiences and challenge everyone to do better and remember all of those around here who have made your time with MSTS special.Chris Lee
Train ArtisanEdit: Splitter to Spittler and Breaking things.

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-03 AT 08:12 PM (EST)

Well said Chris. Many people here take Train Simulator way too seriously and forget the most important thing in life: people. While I'm not a member of Club TA (the only reason is I am not is because I am more intrested in freight equipment than passenger) but I have a great appreciation for what the people at TA do. They have been a major factor in keeping this community going and take Train Simulator to new levels, especially with the new smoke. As for jumping through hoops to get into Club TA, even if, for some reason you make a donation and are unsucessful at getting into Club TA, there is no reason to consider it a loss of money, because you still have made a donation to a great cause.

-----------------------------

Kyle Norek, Milepost 76 on the NS Buffalo Line
MSN Messenger: crsd40@hotmail.com

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Well now this is a waste of bandwidth...... stupid assholes*~þHÃt*Rat~**~classic american playa~*

www.atlanticsystem.tk

September 11th, 2001: I stand united! Peace to those who perished... R.I.P

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Just Shoot Me. I feel like a lame horse after reading all this.Pete Willard
-< The Keystone Works >-
Mechanical Engineering Dept.
http://www.trainsimstuff.com

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-03 AT 09:28 PM (EST)

Hell. From that point of view you make me feel sorry about it.....- bringing me in a real conflict. My question after all this is:Am i still allowed and have the right to use that Train Artisan package that i have paid for?Also i have to excuse my ignority not to listen to the news boy who probably have shouten about the glory history of Train artisan....... naaah, not really!See, from my point of view you are a company. You sell a product which is not cheap. There are just some trains and some acts in it.I was willing to pay that high price (higher than Cayon pass with Superchief etc.) because you offer extra material at your page.Perhaps you start reading your own web page:
------------------------------
Train Artisan is a hobbyist group dedicated to creating high quality locomotives, rolling stock and activities for the new generation of Train Simulation software. Our intent is to be considered one of the premiere content creators for the Train Simulation market. We will achieve this goal through our attention to detail, quality, and continuous innovation in our products.
------------------------------
The fourth button on your page links to the PRODUCT Page.
------------------------------Raynet Business Glossary:
Product:
anything that satifies a need or a want for some form of payment (usually money)
Market:
a mean by which the exchange of goods and services takes place as a result of buyers and sellers
------------------------------
Do you see anything in the last sentences (especially the words market and product) that when you speek it loud sounds the same as you say free? Try it. Do you?Me not!So perhaps you want to give me back my 29 bucks and come back then to hear me say thank you or you just give what you have offered. You offered a product (to remember - thats the thing someone pays for) together with bonus downloads.You offered alternately a free membership to your club for people donating to one of your chosen organisation.So what the hell i have done wrong in given you my money.I tell you. Chosen your product to be good.A product that offers you a bonus you do not give.Youre lucky i am in another country because thats in fact a feast for american lawyers.ASC

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>Youre lucky i am in another country because thats in fact a
>feast for american lawyers.
>
>ASC On what grounds? The money you paid to TA was for the American Classics package. Access to the club downloads is not included in the price of the AC package, it is a free gift for making the purchase.A quote from the Club TA website "Please note that access to this site is a privilege and not a right. We reserve the right to refuse access to anyone."You have the AC package in your possesion, and you stated earlier that you were satisifed with it, that is all you money entitles you to.If TA still allows you to have access to this gift they are better people than most.
JS

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"I would remind some of these dissenters that Train Simulator is indeed just a “game”. It isn’t a world revolving activity. It isn’t even a monumental lifestyle factor (if it is to some, as it indeed seems to be, may I suggest that they “get a life”)."
Yes, it is just a 'game'; that people are willing to give away their hard-earned money to make more interesting. Your customers are willing to play their lives away because a product that you sell. Normally, companies would consider it 'bad PR' to ignore customer's questions complaints; though you wrap yourselves up in enough disclaimers to make your customers believe you are not obligated in any way to help with something that they paid good money for.However, as this is a game; I have abstained from getting anything that costs money.No offense intended (and please, don't take it as such), this is my personal opinion.


...Runnin' on Soda...

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Gosh! Maybe that post I deleted was right on the point. Ohh well.This is getting out of hand with TrainArtisan this and TrainArtisan that. If you don't like TrainArtisan then just don't download there stuff. Stop this constant complaining on this forum. Nels, Mac, TexasWestern, and Jens are trying to make this a safe enviroment for everyone to enjoy this Simulation.Excuse my language! If you like bitching and moaning please leave this forum! I have had enough of listening to this and I know TrainArtisan has had enough of it!Things like this are making me change my mind on how I will release the models in which I'm going to start modeling.TrainArtisan, I know you have to put up with a lost of BS but please don't think about quiting. There are still thousands of loyal fans out there. Thank You for the work and the long hours from your regular life and family to make us happy. ThanksAdam
ALCO Adam's Locomotive Company

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Way to go Adam!
PEOPLE~ !! This is a $%#$ HOBBY! It's for fun, RIGHT!
Let me say this, If you arn't here for fun, LEAVE, go find somthing you enjoy! Remember the people at TA are doing what they do becasuse they like MSTS! Lest just cool our heads off and enjoy this hobby and RESPECT each other and everyones work! Let me put it this way. This ain't real, this is for fun, only fun, just for fun, lets not make this place into a fight club.If one thing makes me madder than..... it is
People who decided to turn a community or club in a fight.
One last comment
The day I have to make myself log into MRS to do my work when I don't enjoy or have any fun it is when I will quit MSTS for good!
Check Out Midwest Rail Systems!
http://www.midwest-rail.com

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a lot of people in this post have stated that TA is putting up with needless bs, becasue afterll, it is freeware. when a company requires you to buy something or otherwise donate money in order to obtain passage into a club area to download something, that hardly can be called freeware. train-sim, is freeware. nobody is required to pay up the money, but after seeing how much great stuff there is here, i gladly ponied up the 30 bucks, and will continue to do so.ta, much of what has come up lately, you have brought upon yourselves. you have a club section, but make it it a pain in the butt to get into, and there is no way to find out what all is inside, to see if it is worth paying for, unless you join. that is my only gripe, and i hope you do something in the future to make it more easy to find out what you have. if there was a way for people to see what is in the club section before they join, more people would probally join up.i value work done by anyone that makes my msts more fun, including the SD 40 recently released as part of the 1.2 update. i enjoyed the ac pack ,and the sd 70 pack, both of which are long gone from the download section.Untill you find a way to better get your products into the open so people know what they are paying for, there will continue to be resentment towards ta, becasue afterall, you are dealing with PAYWARE.

Chris Bogley
Ft. Huachuca AZ
http://groups.msn.com/tehachapi

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>you have a club section, but make it it a pain
>in the butt to get into, and there is no way to find out
>what all is inside, to see if it is worth paying for, unless
>you join. Not to mention you come in there and find simply nothing but a way thats a new pain in the butt.ASC

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>Things like this are making me change my mind on how I will
>release the models in which I'm going to start modeling.In what way? Are you now going to offer them as Payware, or Donation-ware, or as Freeware?I'm neutral on the matter personally, I'm quite willing to pay for the quality payware models I want and I'm very appreciative of the many talented developers who offer their quality work as freeware for the love of the hobby. I've also been donating to TA's charities since the initial release of their ESE.The only thing I won't do is beg someone to keep them giving me free stuff. That gets old.

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Excuse me, but where are the moderators? Why isn't this "go nowhere" thread still open?Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.comPro Series Super Packs

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-03 AT 11:35 PM (EST)

>Excuse me, but where are the moderators? Why isn't this "go
>nowhere" thread still open?
>
>Cheers!
>Marc - 3DTrains
>http://www.3dtrains.com
>Hi Marc,as i understand that you have to put your head in the line of fire because you are in the same business, your name has been mentioned and it perhaps looks not good to not react, please answer me?Why is this thread with a mix of dissapointments and high commendation less worth and has to be closed than a thread of just high commendation.I wanted a reaction from TA. What i get from them? Ignorance. This discussion is just a reaction pro and con of that.You ask why i do not wrote them directly. Because the way to this has shown that that has gone to nowhere.ASC

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-03 AT 11:38 PM (EST)

ASC, as you can see good will prevail over evil! TrainArtisan as lots of support, even from there competors!Also, as a new comer to this forum, it was NOT smart on your half to come in here and start something like this. I put a FULL request to the moderators of Train-Sim.com to have you banned from this forum! My 2 cents on this subject.Adam
ALCO Adam's Locomotive Company

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Yeah and when you have grown up sometimes you will perhaps understand that that belongs to manage a good business.ASC

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Grown up, you are the only one that seems like they are not grown up here buddy. If I was you I would listen to what the Senior members of this forum has to say to you.Adam
ALCO Adam's Locomotive Company

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>ASC, as you can see good will prevail over evil!
>TrainArtisan as lots of support, even from there competors!
>
>Also, as a new comer to this forum, it was NOT smart on your
>half to come in here and start something like this. I put a
>FULL request to the moderators of Train-Sim.com to have you
>banned from this forum! My 2 cents on this subject.
>
>Adam
>ALCO Adam's Locomotive Company If TA is not a business, then they have no competitors. If they are a business than the opinions expressed do have some weight. What makes you the judge of who is allowed to post an opinion in this forum, newcomers or not?

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-03 AT 11:59 PM (EST)

You know, you are asking to be banned and I would be more than happy to kick you myself. I think you have taken this too far. I would suggest you leave, while you still have a chance...edit: now reading your reply to a friend's post, I think you need to GET A LIFE!!!. If you are so good, why don't you got make your own "TA." IMO, You need to LEAVE NOW. I will also Put in a request to the mods and THE ADMIN to BAN you. Don't expect nice words when you pick on the "Big Boys" of this site. We don't take "TROLLS" or "Freeloaders" nicely!!
Chris
Content Manager @ MOWShed.com / Webmaster @ Midwest-rail.com
MSTS Rocks
TA Please do 611 & 1218

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After spendin 30+ins of my time,m wich could have been spent skinnin (A much better time investment)... I can summerize this out of this fight we are having here.
-------
1) ASC has a valid point about TA. It seems annoying how the site works.
2) ASC has taken it WAY TOO FAR
3) Almost everyone has over reacted. In about 5 post in we proveed that TA site was bad, BUT TA makes GREAT ADD-ONS and every one and every site will NEVER be perfect. And TA makes does the best job it can. Even ASC said the add-ons were good.
4) Lets Just "give up and go home" and goi RUN SOME TRAINS or SKIN, or MAKE a ADD-ON!
5) There is absolutely NO point to all the fuss!
--------
If I was an admin/mod I would lock this post now.
TC

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This thread does nothing to promote unity amongst us - I'm not taking sides - I could care less who's right and who is wrong. The point being that this could have, and should have, been delt with in email - barring that, others have joined the fray to sling mud in one direction or another. Not good for anyone's sake.Me, I'm off to watch a nice Jimmy Stuart classic on PBS. Best way I know of to cool off. Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.comPro Series Super Packs

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I agree with Marc, I'm going to step out of this. I have put my 2 cents in on this subject and i'm satisified.Adam
ALCO Adam's Locomotive Company

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i don't agree with the post being removed just because members are giving thier opinions. true, it has gotton out of hand, but the main thing here is ta is a bussiness. they are producing payware just like you and brad, and like any bussiness, ta needs to regonize that they have a few shortfalls that need to be addressed in order to better suit the needs of the train-sim cummunity. if it was freeware, then there would be no justification in bashing them, but that is not the case here. they are payware, and with that comes the responsibility of providing clear and easy access to thier product, and ta is not doing that.for the record, i have enjoyed thier work from the past, and the 1.2 sd 40 update that they did. i can get over the club thing, because simply put, untill they make it easier to view the contents of the club section, than i will not be spending money on something i know nothing about. that would be like 3dts or mlt advertising a route for 20 bucks without telling you anything about it, untill you order it and pay for it.As someone who does not know how to re-skin, i value the contributions of others, including those that do it for free, and profit, because either way you look at it, a lot of work goes into it. i hope that ta can look at things a little differently and make some changes to thier site and the way they put thier products out.This being my 3rd post to this topic, i'm going to leave the mud slinging to othersm becasue thier are obviously some people that will never be satisfied with what they got. i just take what i can get and move on, and like marc, i'm going to go watch a train video to help me relax, and hope this post will eventually yield way to more friendlier topics.....good night all..

Chris Bogley
Ft. Huachuca AZ
http://groups.msn.com/tehachapi

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Ok, here I go,
to begin with, have YOU ever made a loco, or any rolling stock, worked out the bugs textured it, tested it released it, as a original work of art, only to have some PUNKwho feels like saying that a repaint would be "easyer" open his hole and complain. consiter this: how many people dose TA have to deal with day in an day out for the coustimer service for "americain classics" pack. to think that you'd get a responce form a company in a "few hours" is stupid. if you wrote a e-mail to a big company concering a product would you get a message back right away. No.Another observation, it seems like the only people who complain are usually little brats who don't have pacents, or people who have never tried to make their own stuff, and take offence when someone tells the to try it themselfs when us seinor members of the forums get tiard of the "I want" "I need" "can someome make...." posts. then half the people have the nerve to say "thats not right" when one of us designers actually tackle the project. I hate long posts so I'll end with this:
the next time you feel like complaining about TA or anythng else anyone dose, do this:
1. go download 3D Canvas LP
2. try your hand at moddling
3. cry like a baby when you discover you can't do it.
4. then think twice about complaining, and relise how hard 3d designing really is.PS, marid, if you hsve downloaded My T-1 or anything that I have made, promply delete it, you do not deserve the privlage of my stuff, I own the rights to them so I can get away with this.


Delamaize
"Long Live High Speed Rail In The USA"

Chasis Builder, Boiler Builder, and Builder of any other parts that need to be fabricated.

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last thing, look how many post this little weinnie that posted this has, 14, he has no room to complain.
gee I wish some people would just dissapear.


Delamaize
"Long Live High Speed Rail In The USA"

Chasis Builder, Boiler Builder, and Builder of any other parts that need to be fabricated.

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Delamaize has it right.
To add to his comments about email...
A BIG company ahs a group of people to do EMAILS and JUST Emails. TA ism't big! The ppl there have to do it in their free time when they arn't busy workin on a model. Even MRS takes about a day to respond to help questions and we have a dedicated tech support volenteer. Give them a break. On top of that probably many of the guys at TA have REAL JOBS non MSTS related.
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I couldn't agree more with trying to do a 3d model!
I've bought tsmodeler tried given up for now. (My shuff looked like what you would find in the trash). I've gone back to skinning and worked on learing how to mod cabs instead.
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I contributed my 2cents to this discusion and I will now promply go on with my life. (More MSTS work I guesss..... It never stops coming)
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BTW One last thing. If you as for an enine in a I want... Post and someone DOES somthing for you or your group acept it with a smile and use it ... DON"T COMPLAIN, YOU COUN"T HAVE DONE IT ANY BETTER, IN FACT YOUR PROBABLY COULDN'T have doen it PERIOD! And if someone ever complains( I don't mean helpful sugestions on various possible improvements, I love those) make sure your friends wo do skins for people KNOW NEVER to DO them another skin or engine. BE HAPPY with what you get.
TC

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Well, actually, i've been watching this entire discussion and left it open for a reason, but since no one else has locked it or deleted it.. and I will lock it.. unless requested by Train Artisan, it will be deleted.

Brian E. Bundridge

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