C30s, GPs, SDs, U-boats, and Road Numbers

After spending a couple of hours researching the N&W/NS locomotives I've downloaded, I've come to a couple of quandries that I'd appreciate advice upon.1. Is there any difference between a C30-7 and a C30-7A? I've got C30-7 #8132 of this type whereas NS retired a C30-7A in 2000, and I was curious if I needed to make any changes to reflect the -7A instead of the -7.2. Is there any visual difference between a GP40 and a GP50? I've got the NS GP50 #7017, and it's a "renumber" of a GP40 to a number held by a GP50. I guess there isn't, but I'd like to make sure.3. What numbers were assigned by NS to their SD45 fleet? I've got an SD45 numbered 621. My research, however, shows that all the NS SD45-2 (the only variant I can find them having as NS) were numbered 1701-1705. Any remarks on what to do or clarification would be appreciated.4. The NS SD50 can't be #6656; that was assigned to an SD60. Now, I've read something that suggests little major visual difference between the SD50 and the early SD60; if all I have to do to make the 50 a 60 is change some numbers and the name in the ENG, then I've got an SD60.5. I can't verify for myself that the NS U25B #3956 ever existed; one source I found suggested that N&W only had one of the U25B, and Conrail had disposed of theirs before the merger. Any information's appreciated; I'm consistently impressed with the attention to detail and whatnot that's been put into these locomotives. Thanks!

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Norfolk & Western’s Radford Division, Pulaski District: Who needs the Marias Pass?

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RE: C30s, GPs, SDs, U-boats, and Road Numbers, kevarc, Jan-23-03, 11:19 PM, (1) RE: C30s, GPs, SDs, U-boats, and Road Numbers, plainsman, Jan-24-03, 00:22 AM, (2) RE: C30s, GPs, SDs, U-boats, and Road Numbers, NW_611, Jan-24-03, 00:47 AM, (3) RE: C30s, GPs, SDs, U-boats, and Road Numbers, NW_611, Jan-24-03, 01:14 AM, (4) RE: C30s, GPs, SDs, U-boats, and Road Numbers, plainsman, Jan-24-03, 01:36 AM, (5) RE: C30s, GPs, SDs, U-boats, and Road Numbers, NW_611, Jan-24-03, 02:07 AM, (6) RE: C30s, GPs, SDs, U-boats, and Road Numbers, NW_611, Jan-24-03, 02:16 AM, (7) RE: C30s, GPs, SDs, U-boats, and Road Numbers, callboy, Jan-24-03, 12:03 PM, (8) RE: C30s, GPs, SDs, U-boats, and Road Numbers, NW_611, Jan-27-03, 05:20 PM, (10) RE: C30s, GPs, SDs, U-boats, and Road Numbers, doom262003, Jan-27-03, 05:38 PM, (11) RE: C30s, GPs, SDs, U-boats, and Road Numbers, NW_611, Jan-27-03, 05:48 PM, (13) RE: C30s, GPs, SDs, U-boats, and Road Numbers, plainsman, Jan-29-03, 09:50 AM, (15) RE: C30s, GPs, SDs, U-boats, and Road Numbers, doom262003, Jan-29-03, 03:03 PM, (16) RE: C30s, GPs, SDs, U-boats, and Road Numbers, NW_611, Jan-27-03, 05:44 PM, (12) RE: C30s, GPs, SDs, U-boats, and Road Numbers, callboy, Jan-29-03, 05:41 AM, (14) RE: C30s, GPs, SDs, U-boats, and Road Numbers, mjs2101, Jan-25-03, 01:17 AM, (9)

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N&W - SD45 #1700-1729, 1731-1814 - bought in two groups in 1966 and 1970, Kevin Arceneaux
It is time for Amtrak to become a fallen flag!

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Hello,
The C30-7 had 16 a cylinder diesel engine, the C30-7A had a turbocharged 12 cylinder diesel engine. The C30-7 was more commonly heavier as well.
The GP40 and GP50 are not quite the same, but the main difference was the size of the radiator. There are a number of GP40 models out there. The Justin Cornell model seems to have a little larger radiator than the DekoSoft model, consequently it looks more like a GP50 when loaded in a consist with a DekoSoft GP40. The rivet counters will find a number of issues beyond this, but i think it is a pretty fair representation of the #7011 GP50, at least when you consider my inept skills as an artist.
The major difference between a SD60 and SD50 in the spartan cab configuration, was the number of doors under the radiator. If you count these a lot as you watch the train go by, it will disappoint, otherwise, my suggestion is to upgrade to SD60 physics from version 4.5 physics files, and enjoy a SD60.
Hope this helps,
Bob

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>Hello,
>The C30-7 had 16 a cylinder diesel engine, the C30-7A had a
>turbocharged 12 cylinder diesel engine. The C30-7 was more
>commonly heavier as well.So in other words, we're talking about mere numbers, right? Sounds like all I need to do is place a call to the guy who does those physics files. You ah, wouldn't happen to know him by chance, would you?

>i think it is a pretty
>fair representation of the #7011 GP50Good enough for me, then.

>The major difference between a SD60 and SD50 in the spartan
>cab configuration, was the number of doors under the
>radiator. If you count these a lot as you watch the train go
>by, it will disappoint, otherwise, my suggestion is to
>upgrade to SD60 physics from version 4.5 physics files, and
>enjoy a SD60. It's Norfolk Southern livery. I can't see anything on it. Looks like NS SD60 #6656 is going to be hauling into the Richmond yard for a bit of tweaking. >Hope this helps,
>Bob It does! Thanks to you and Kevin for helping me to do away with several of my seemingly-endless stream of questions. I'll stop soon; I really will.

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Norfolk & Western’s Radford Division, Pulaski District: Who needs the Marias Pass?

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Oh, something else cropped up: I've got a GP38 of some mark installed; it thinks it's a GP38-2. I found the very locomotive in NS service recently as #2833, and it's a GP38AC. In terms of Train Simulator, is that something that can
a. Be overlooked
b. Be addressed with physics
c. Not be fixed; it's the end of the world as we know it.Once again, thanks for any input.

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Norfolk & Western’s Radford Division, Pulaski District: Who needs the Marias Pass?

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-24-03 AT 01:44 AM (EST)

The GP38AC is a GP38 with an alternator instead of a generator. Early GP38s had generators. Then came the GP38AC with alternators, then the GP38-2 with alternator and Dash 2 electronic enhancements. If you use the GP38 physics you should be fine.
I think the C30-7A was a Conrail model.
Bob

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>If you use the GP38 physics you
>should be fine. Pure GP38, correct?>I think the C30-7A was a Conrail model.

May have been. I'm too fuzzy at this point (case in point: I put in a URL to prove that GP38AC #2833 was a C30-7A and in NS colors, but realized before I posted it) to dredge up the location where I found the initial reference, but it looks like I'm almost through with this little project of mine. If all goes well, perhaps I'll have something to type up and post for all the N&W/NS fans out there who might like one player's take on a broad swath of locomotives.

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Norfolk & Western’s Radford Division, Pulaski District: Who needs the Marias Pass?

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Yes, the C30-7A was, initially, a Conrail-only unit. After the merger, it appears that some of them went into Norfolk Southern service.See http://communities.prodigy.net/trains/cnslocos.htm for a brief explanation of this. That's not my only source, but it was a simple one.

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Norfolk & Western’s Radford Division, Pulaski District: Who needs the Marias Pass?

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One source I found searching at "google" was
http://users.inna.net/~jaydeet/rosters.htm Of all the SD45's owned by the N&W, unit #1728
was "lo-nosed", the rest high.I worked at Shaffers Crossing in Roanoke for many
years (1961-86), had the opportunity to see lots of diesels
go by the window.callboy

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-27-03 AT 05:31 PM (EST)

Thanks for that information! Now, the SD45 in N&W livery (#1799) available here is one of the low-nosed, so I suppose it's "inaccurate". Now, (and this goes to a broad question) did N&W get what I think is a "safety cab" refit? If not, I guess I'll either be trying to change the number on the engine, or I'll be pulling it from the bunch.The next-to-last thing outstanding from this question set is: In light of the differences in the actual engines of the C30-7 and -7A, what changes would I need to make in the physics files? I'm hoping plainsman will address this, whether it's a significant issue and needs work, or can be ignored for purposes of TS.In closing, I've still not found a hard and fast answer on the U25B; anyone who's got information is more than welcome to pass along whatever the real deal is. The inkling I'm getting, especially in light of the information from mjs2101 is that the U25B never served on the N&W, much less the NS.Thanks to all of you folks for lots of useful information. After I get done with this, I get to start trying to verify cabs and sound fits. Joy!

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Norfolk & Western’s Radford Division, Pulaski District: Who needs the Marias Pass?

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I'm not plainsman, but here my two cents: They have the same horsepower. The C30-7A was a CR-only unit. The major difference is fuel efficiency. The C30-7A has 4 less cylinders, and so better fuel efficiency. The C30-7 would on average weigh more because of more cylinders, which would increase its adhesion, which increases applied tractive effort. I think the difference would be a little more than negligible, but that's what I think. I grew up around these (probably seen more of them than any other type of locomotive), so I know a bit about them.
Tom

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Same horsepower? Fantastic! If I'm reading your remarks (thanks, by the way) correctly, the "a little more than neglible" bit means that there's something deep in the physics to change, correct? Even if it is, I may just have to live with it. However, if the major difference is fuel efficiency, then big deal; I'm not going to bemoan the expenditure of fuel that doesn't exist in the first place.

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Norfolk & Western’s Radford Division, Pulaski District: Who needs the Marias Pass?

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Hi Tom and NW611,
I think you are correct that the C30-7A will have a little better fuel efficiency than the C30-7. It will not be dramatic though because the turbo had to make up for the four extra cylinders. The C30-7 uses 149 gal/hour at full throttle, and I would guess the C30-7A might be 142 gal/hour. The C30-7 file has the idle rate at 3.8 gal/hour, andI would drop that to 3.0 gal/hour.
Now the C30-7A is 7,500 pounds lighter than a similar C30-7. Keep in mind though most RRs ballast their locomotives to fit their road and use requirements. If a RR is using C30-7s in coal service out on the plains over good mainline track, these may weigh 412,000 pounds. On the other hand, if a road is using these same models over poorly maintained track and hauling mixed freight, then they could be as light as 368,000 pounds, though most are not. The "typical" C30-7 weighs about 390,000 pounds. I would guess the CR units were ordered a little lighter than typical, so I would use 378,000 pounds for the C30-7A. That is 171.5 metric tons, so that would go in the .eng file under mass. The new friction line would need to be done, which would look like this:
1871N/m/s 0 0.7mph 19.18N/m/s 1.8
Now you were not quite right about adhesion. The actual adhesion does not change (the percentage of the weight that can be used for tractive effort), but the MTE will change, because it is the product of adhesion and weight. Thus the line in the C30-7 file
MaxForce ( 475.4kN )
would change to
MaxForce ( 443.4kN )
The CTE will not change, as it is a function of the traction motors, which would be the same in both models. All the rest of the file would really be very close, and I don't think is worth a bother (rpm (go up) and rpm rate change (go down) would be a little different, but not enough to matter).
Hope this helps,
Bob

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The C30-7A has almost exclusively been used by CR/CSX on the old Boston & Albany line (between its namesake cities). This is also home to some of the biggest stuff that the B&A, then NYC, then PC, then CR, and now CSX own. When CR bought the SD80's, they came right here. CSX had AC6000's here for a while, but they don't use them as much. The 2-8-4 moniker "Berkshire" comes from the western MA section of the Appalachians, called the Berkshires. The 2-8-4 was first tested here, and it tested very well I may add. They ran mostly anything in four-unit sets that ran here, including one coal train a week on poorly maintained Guilford track to Bow, NH, but mostly on well-maintained track. I think that your weight is right, as there was only one railroad that ordered, and one order. I actually was thinking about the adhesion, and I read that in an article about the BN C30-7 (which perfectly fits the plain-riding coal-hauler type). The difference actually is not notable.
Hope this helps,
Tom

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Here's where I get to look stupid:01. http://www.northeast.railfan.net/diesel74.html has a U25B in N&W livery. Doh. I was thinking that they'd had a single one to operate for evaluation or something, and I guess this is it.02. http://nwry.railfan.net/roster.html has N&W operating ex-Wabash U25Bs, but not in that road number range. N&W #3956 was allocated to an ex-Wabash H-24-66, however. Whatever happens, the U25B I've got is going to be an ex-Wabash model.There's no way in the world that I could reproduce the "NORFOLK AND WESTERN" livery, logo, and numbering, (especially since I only have a side view) but I might be able to swing a numerical shift on that NS U25B, and just convince myself that the thing survived as some sort of fan favorite, never meeting the scrapper's torch or something. This is, of course, an open request for someone to repaint the NS U25B into N&W livery with an accurate number.

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Norfolk & Western’s Radford Division, Pulaski District: Who needs the Marias Pass?

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In response to the SD45 question, and the #1728 unit I mentioned earlier, was never able to determine whether the unit was wreck-damaged, or taken new with the "lo-nose".
I would see this unit from time to time, in consists thru Roanoke, never saw it in the lead.
It was a curious item at the time, as the N&W had not begun to purchase "lo-noses".callboy

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Looking at an issue of the Green Light (Jan/Feb 1990) for the NS roster:3. 1765-1769 - SD45 (N&W)5. 3955-3964 - U23B (SOU)Didn't see any listings for SD45-2's or U25B's.Mykel

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