Anticipating Grades

Other than knowing the route intimately, is there any way to anticipate grades for the purpose of braking or increasing power? In real life an engineer can look down/up the tracks and see a change in grade and adjust accordingly. (I have looked up/down tracks from a grade crossing and noticed grade changes). In train-sim it doesn't become apparent until the train starts to slow down or gain speed. Anticipating grades would open up the need for honing techniques in order to apply brakes or throttle in a manner which will not break couplings or damage freight.
BTW, there was a recent post about the use of "projected" speed in the "Track Monitor" window. I keep the window displayed but do not rely on the "projected" speed portion. I find observing the engine's speedometer and listening to sounds a better way of maintaining a constant speed. Having said that, a method af anticipating grades would plus.
Comments, suggestions, and maybe a solution would be appreciated.
D. C. Morris

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

RE: Anticipating Grades, xlspecial261, Dec-18-02, 04:15 PM, (1) RE: Anticipating Grades, rfoss, Dec-18-02, 08:35 PM, (2) RE: Anticipating Grades, Coonskin, Dec-18-02, 10:58 PM, (3) RE: Anticipating Grades, plainsman, Dec-18-02, 11:40 PM, (4) RE: Anticipating Grades, Paul1953, Dec-19-02, 03:20 AM, (5) RE: Anticipating Grades, plainsman, Dec-19-02, 03:25 AM, (6) RE: Anticipating Grades, dcmorris, Dec-19-02, 01:19 PM, (7) RE: Anticipating Grades, Coonskin, Dec-19-02, 03:36 PM, (8) RE: Anticipating Grades, highball5, Dec-19-02, 07:00 PM, (9) RE: Anticipating Grades, Bing, Dec-19-02, 11:44 PM, (10) RE: Anticipating Grades, Matt Vince, Dec-20-02, 06:50 PM, (11) RE: Anticipating Grades, xlspecial261, Dec-20-02, 07:30 PM, (12) RE: Anticipating Grades, rjdiii, Dec-20-02, 07:32 PM, (13)

Conferences | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic

Well, you can't always see the change in grade from the cab. (Nighttime comes to mind right away) Subtle changes in gradient are not always obvious either. For the most part you learn where the grades are from operating over the territory, generally by taking "familiarization" trips before you are qualified to operate over a territory. More important, you learn where the signals are on these "fam" trips.The accelerometer is a very helpful tool when used for proper train handling. Unfortunately, the "bouncing ball" supplied with the game isn't very good, but you can tell if you are gaining or losing speed.Mostly, you will earn the grades from experience. Try and use something as a mark for the bottom and tops of hills as you are running.One tip that usually works is this; Bridges are generally at the bottom of a hill. (In the midwest anyway) If the route has been laid out from prototype profiles, this should usually be correct.Todd Jones
Engineer
Canadian Pacific Railway

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

I watch the Track Monitor. If the projected speed is increasing even though you have held the throttle steady then you are usually on a downhill grade. This is especially true if your current speed is increasing too. Likewise, if your projected speed is decreasing and your current speed is decreasing you are entering an uphill grade.Granted, these are just approximate and fluctuate, but you get used to it in most cases. I Pay more attention to the Track Monitor because I like to ride outside the cab. It is easier to notice grade changes from within the cab but the Track Monitor still seems to me to give the best information that is available.Rick

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Hi D.C. Getting some good answers, I see.Main part is just like the prototype: Know the route.Otherwise, watch for one of "KUJU's Clues": Unless the grade change is VERY imperceptible, there will be a slight upward/downward "tick" of the train/scene relationship as the train enters the change. If the change in gradient has been kept to .150 angle or less, it will be a very slight "tick". If the route has large vertical changes (greater than .300) than the "tick" will be much more pronounced.That's your clue that things are getting ready to change, so be ready on the throttle and/or brakes!Have fun!Andre Ming

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

One thing I like to do is to set up an intro train ride with a train which has a pretty challenging consist. That way, i can see areas where speeds change significantly, where any special quirks of the route exist, and get a "feel" for it before i run it. This is sort of like what was suggested above, but your trainer is one of the worst engineers around, so don't follow his techniques, just watch the route and observe where the train slows due to steep grades (the AI engineer will slow dramatically for no apparent reason some times, but you can see he has made a brake application), or accelerates rapidly (AI will never use dynamics).
Bob

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Do you mean to say that you can alter a consist in the Introductory Ride section?

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Sure Paul,
First I just build an activity, go into the ...routes/xyzroute/activity folder, open the activity, and change the mode from 2 to 0. You then have to find the old Intro train ride file and change it from mode 0 to 2. That is it.
Bob

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Many thanks for all of the input. Now I know what I have to do and that is utilize all of the tips.
BTW, Andre, I have noticed those "ticks" and thought they were just an annoyance not knowing they could serve a usefull purpose.
D. C. Morris

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

DC:To make sure we're talking about the same "tick" (MSTS has several, you know! )... You're watching for the one where the train starts upward. Not the "tick" of a rough railjoint. To help you learn the line, once you notice a grade change, find a notable spot (a land form, or tree, structure, etc) and use that a reference next time through. Frankly, it's a lot like learning the to handle trains on the route of an actual line. Guess that's why they call it a "simulator"??? Andre

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Familiarization and memorization plays a big part in the real world. I've seen
engineers kick the throttle up or down a notch or two almost as a reflex action without
really paying close attention to landmarks or terrain. Especially the guys that run
the locals that cover the same areas on a daily basis. After a while it's just sort of
'habit' to know where a little more power is needed, or where to start a brake
application and just how much it should be. Of course there's always variables like
size/weight of the train, or weather conditions that require some modifications of
those 'habits'.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

YOu could always ask the Division Super for a grade profile chart.Doesn't mean you are going to get it. But you can ask.Bing

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON Dec-20-02 AT 06:52 PM (EST)

Maybe what's needed is mile by mile track profiles, showing gradient, speed limits, positions of signals, switches etc. This would help those with little route knowledge operate properly. Something like that is used by TGV drivers:
That said, nothing works better than knowing where you are...

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Here is a Milwaukee Road profile.I'll try and describe it for those that are not familiar with them.Along the very top it says "Automatic Block System". This is the signaling system in use for this portion of line.The large block number across the top, 130, 129, etc, are the mileposts.The line below the pilepost number represents the curvature of the line. Where the line is straight, the track is straight. The Dashed peaks represent curves. The curve goes the direction of the peak. In other words, if you are facing eastward, a peak pointing towards the top of the page is a left hand curve. Pointing down would be a right hand curve.You will see inside these "peaks" a number expressed in degrees. This is the radius of the curve. Also, next to the "peak" you will see "EL 1 1/2" ". This is the superelevation (banking)of the curve. The outer rail would be 1 1/2"'s higher than the inside.The next line down shows the "profile" of the line. Here you can see where the line goes up and down. Listed here are the grades expressed in "percent". This line also shows the elevation above sealevel at each grade change. As you can see, the grade does not stay even for long usually.About 2/3's down the page is the track diagram. (The wording between the profile and diagram covers thing like culverts and bridge types). This shows the track layout including sidings and crossovers. Nearby roads are also shown here along with grade crossings.Along the bottom are four lines. Since this is a double ttrack line, two are for the rail, one for each main. This lists the rail codes and installation dates.The bottom two lines shows the ballast for each main. It shows what type of rock was dumped, when it was dumped, and how much. (Usually measured in inches)If you can get ahold of one of these they are invaluable for a prototype line.Hope this helps.Todd

Attachments

http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/User_files/3e03b63074b43aba.jpg

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

On diesel locomotives one way to anticipate is to watch the ammeter from the cabview. If the number of amps starts going down at a given speed you're starting to go downhill. Conversely, if the ammeter starts rising your going upgrade. This will usually happen before any noticable speed change. Works the same way with dynamic braking only in reverse. The trick is learning how much additional power maintains a given speed for a given train on a given gradient and conversly if braking is needed on downgrades or just throttling down. I think MSTS does a decent job of simulating interia but I think the brakes set and release far too quickly and have too much effect (train brake) or not enough effect (independent brake). Richard

Alert | IP

[ Home | MSTS Forum | MSTS FAQ | File Library ] Copyright © 2002 by Nels Anderson. All Rights Reserved.