Question for the Wizards

LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-02 AT 09:39 PM (EST)

This is kinda Train Sim related, so bear with me.
Right now, I'm running WinME (Yea, I know. Shame! Shame!).
After some reading on forums, I've decided to revert back to Win98SE. I'm not ready to jump on XP, and SE seems to hold high regard for gaming.
I have two hard drives-Well, here's my specs:PowerSpec 7805, 250 watt power supply
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA 7ZMM
Processor: AMD Athlon MMX, 3D Now, 1000mhz
Memory: 768mb SDRAM PC-133
Video: PNY Verto NVidea GeForce 4 MX440 64MB DDR RAM AGP
Monitor: NEC MultiSync 95 19"
Hard disks:
Primary: WD Caviar Ultra ATA-100 7200rpm 80GB, 8mb cache (partitioned to 50 and 30 GB)
Secondary: WD Caviar Ultra ATA-100 7200rpm 30GB (partitioned to 20 and 10 GB)
Sound: Creative SB Audigy Gamer PCI 24bit (output to an audio theater system amp)
OS: Windows ME,(4.90 build 3000), DX 8.1 (4.08.01.0881)
BIOS: AMI Ver 1.24aMy understanding is; with two or more hard drives, the drive designation is like this:C:-Master Primary
D:-Slave Primary
E:-Master Partition
F:-Slave Partition.Now! Here we come to my question (Welp,a little more prep first).
I'm going to do the "fdisk", "format C: /s", and install Win98SE.
I want to put Train Sim on it's own partition.
Would it run better on the "Slave Primary" or the "Master Partition"?
Uhm! I hope I made enough sense for ya'll to understand.
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Hawk It's the "Orange Blossom Special" bringing my baby home.

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RE: Question for the Wizards., bob hahn, Dec-17-02, 01:08 AM, (1) RE: Question for the Wizards., derekmorton, Dec-17-02, 01:28 AM, (2) RE: Question for the Wizards., HawK53, Dec-17-02, 03:07 AM, (3) RE: Question for the Wizards., Hawk, Dec-17-02, 04:26 PM, (4) RE: Question for the Wizards., HawK53, Dec-17-02, 05:58 PM, (5) RE: Question for the Wizards., Hawk, Dec-17-02, 07:16 PM, (6) RE: Question for the Wizards., derekmorton, Dec-17-02, 11:34 PM, (7) RE: Question for the Wizards., HawK53, Dec-18-02, 01:37 AM, (8) RE: Question for the Wizards., pwillard, Dec-18-02, 09:36 AM, (9) RE: Question for the Wizards., derekmorton, Dec-18-02, 02:59 PM, (10) RE: Question for the Wizards., bob hahn, Dec-18-02, 03:35 PM, (11) RE: Question for the Wizards., derekmorton, Dec-18-02, 04:30 PM, (13) RE: Question for the Wizards., HawK53, Dec-18-02, 04:46 PM, (14) RE: Question for the Wizards., HawK53, Dec-18-02, 03:55 PM, (12) RE: Question for the Wizards., derekmorton, Dec-18-02, 04:55 PM, (15) RE: Question for the Wizards., HawK53, Dec-18-02, 04:59 PM, (16)

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This is a tough puzzle. Is it really true that the smaller drive does not have a cache? For sure you want the OS on the drive with the cache. I would make "C:" about 5G -- Win98 will never get bigger than that. My Win 2000 is at 3.6G's now.There is probably some tiny performance improvement to be had by having the OS on one disk and MSTS on the other. I suspect cache does not do as much for MSTS as it would for the OS, so if it's true that the smaller drive does not have cache, it may not matter. My fear with the 30G drive is that it might not be big enough. My MSTS partition is at 15G's now, and there are still routes out there to download If you're sure you won't outgrow 30G's, do it that way. But if you do, don't make more than one partition on that drive, because the MSTS might surprise you. You may end up giving it the whole 30G's before you're done.You didn't mention a CD-ROM drive. If you really don't have one, put the drives on different IDE controllers, both as masters. If in fact you do have a CD-ROM, put the hard drives together as master and slave on one IDE, and the CD-ROM on the other. Sharing an IDE controller with a CD-ROM drive can put a hard drive in Programmed I/O mode, which slows it down horribly.If both drives in fact have a cache, I'd swap them: put the 30G drive as the primary master so it becomes the boot disk, make a 5G "C:" on it for Win98, and use the other 25 for whatever. Then put MSTS on the big drive. I would make that whole drive one big partition.About the only reason to divvy up hard drives into multiple partitions anymore is for convenience of backup, if you use a disk imaging utility like DriveImage or Norton Ghost. Then you can make a partition of stuff that never changes, back it up once, and you're done. That's also why I keep nothing but the OS on "C:" -- I back that one up a lot, so I want it to stay as small as possible.

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-02 AT 01:29 AM (EST)

Giday Ed,I would not bother having 2 partitions on the 30Gb drive, its too small.
I agree with Bob in that its hard to decide whether there is an advantage putting TS on the second drive, but I would. Reason being that operating system file calls would go to drive 1 and TS file calls will go to drive 2, so the heads on both drives will move less.Bobs comment about a HD sharing with a CD causing problems is not valid with 'modern' (less than 3 yo) motherboards.Bob, I am happy to discuss, the modern m/b's have seperate registers for each drive and these remember the drive type for each drive and hence make sure that each drive can run at its full speed.Ed, You are mixing up drive and partition information in your drive designation.drives (hd's and cd's) go like this:-primary master
primary slave
secondary master
secondary slavePartitions go:-drive 1
primary partition (c:)
extended partition (e:)drive 2
primary partition (d:) (if you only have 1 partition.Derek

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-02 AT 03:20 AM (EST)

Here is my setup:
MoBo = MSI-KT266 pro raid Via KT266
via drivers: 445v (Hyperion)
mem = 2x 256mb_cl 2.5 Hyundai. DDR266mhz
Cpu = Amd Athlon 1600xp+
HD = Samsung SV_6004H 60gb & Seagate Barracuda ATA-IV 60gb
Vid = Hercules 4500 KyroII driver: vivid 1.06.16.55
OS = W2000 sp3- DX9 beta-rc2
Sound = Terratec DMX Xfire driver: 5.12.1.3056The Samsung holds partition C: 20gb & E: 40gb (5400rpm)
The Seagate Barracuda(7200rpm) is one partition; solely for games
I used to have a Swap-file,( or virtual memory as windows calls it)
on both drives, but got better performance with the swap-file just on C:
this is a fixed size swap-file of 2gb (means less fragmenting)Greets Henk.

~Computers aren't intelligent, they only think they are.~

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Thanks for all the advice guys.Bob: I do have a CD-ROM and a CD-Writer, both on the same IDE ribbon. The two hard drives share the primary IDE ribbon as Master and Slave.
The 30GB hard drive does have cache, but I can't remember how much. I think it has 4MB cache.Derek: What you mentioned about drive and partition info is basically what I meant. I might not have phrased it right, but that's what I was thinking. Henk: a fixed swap file of 2GB. Wow! That's rather large. I'll have to consider that. Right now, mine is set at a fixed 256MB minimum and a variable maximum, depending on free space on my "C" drive.
BTW Henk-"Hawk53", is 53 the year you were born? I was born in 51. Maybe I should change mine to Hawk51. Think that would confuse folks? You guys have given me a lot of food for thought. I thank you, again
I'll chew on all the info and see what I can digest. I have saved this whole thread to my hard drive for quicker reference. I'm also going to transfer it to my old computer for safe keeping.
HawkIt's the "Orange Blossom Special" bringing my baby home.

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>Henk: a fixed swap file of 2GB. Wow! That's rather large.
>I'll have to consider that. Right now, mine is set at a
>fixed 256MB minimum and a variable maximum, depending on
>free space on my "C" drive. >
>You guys have given me a lot of food for thought. I thank
>you, again
>I'll chew on all the info and see what I can digest. I have
>saved this whole thread to my hard drive for quicker
>reference. I'm also going to transfer it to my old computer
>for safe keeping.
>Hawk Yes it is rather large, but on a 60Gb you hardly notice it
but it saves windows from rewriting, and with a small Swap it would resize itself (if needed) all over the partition, with a fragmented swap as a result, and breaking off programs or movie's because your running out of virtual memory is no fun either, hence the 2Gb.>BTW Henk-"Hawk53", is 53 the year you were born? I was born
>in 51. Maybe I should change mine to Hawk51. Think that
>would confuse folks? No 53 comes from the age i was when registered for the first time on a forum, but i'm now 54 3/4 , so (for 1point) in what year was i born?
but i'm keeping the name otherwise i'll get confused
BTW my initials forms the word H.a.w.K, & in the right order, so i have some right to use the name, thx to mom&dad :p
Greets Henk.

~Computers aren't intelligent, they only think they are.~

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OK! I think I understand what your saying. I'll play with that a little and see what comes of it.
Now, for one point, I'd say: Uhm! 'bout mid '48?
I got "Hawk" from my last name-"Hawkins". Kinda fits, don't it?
Thanks for your help!
Hawk It's the "Orange Blossom Special" bringing my baby home.

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ed,
If you are planning to use the second drive to hold TS, you may wish to reconfigure your system.With 2 HD's, you will get better performance if they are on seperate channels.
IE:-
hd
cdreader
hd
writerIf thats a bit much for you, it would still be better to use 2 drives with the way it is.Derek

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>With 2 HD's, you will get better performance if they are on
>seperate channels.
>IE:-
>hd
>cdreader
>hd
> writer
>
>If thats a bit much for you, it would still be better to use
>2 drives with the way it is.
>
>Derek I beg your pardon ?
No CD-Rom has a higher interface than ATA-33
Most of them have only Pio-mode 4 !!
Including the writers, so were is the performance gain may i ask ?
you are aware that 2devices on one channel, will swich both to the lowest interface, that would/could leave all your drives runnin in
PIO-mode 4!! 16MB p/s max.Greets Henk.

~Computers aren't intelligent, they only think they are.~

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Just to stir the pot a bit more...Nvidia does not recommend using anything less than a 300W power supply when a Geforce 2 Card is installed. I learned the hard way. Pete Willard

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>I beg your pardon ?
>No CD-Rom has a higher interface than ATA-33
>Most of them have only Pio-mode 4 !!
>Including the writers, so were is the performance gain may i
>ask ?
>you are aware that 2devices on one channel, will swich both
>to the lowest interface, that would/could leave all your
>drives runnin in
>PIO-mode 4!! 16MB p/s max. Henk,As with Bob, you are quoting 3 year old information which is now incorrect.
All current IDE chipsets have seperate registers for the devices atached to it so that both devices can run at their rated top speed.
Check out www.tomshardware.com if you want some reading.Derek

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3 year old information which is now incorrect.I think we are talking about two different things. There were some early dual-channel IDE controller designs that shared some data paths. Those could lead to data corruption. Nobody does that anymore.Even today, to quote your source -- Tom's hardware -- "For some controllers, you still can't rule out the possibility that the total performance may suffer because of very different protocols and transmission capacities."I have seen this happen on my machine, which is a modern (1 yr old) mobo with dual Athlons, running Windows 2000. If I leave the CD-ROM drive off the chain, and peek in the Device Manager to see how the Secondary IDE controller is running, it will say the hard disk (a 60G IBM Deskstar) is in "Ultra DMA mode."Attach the CD-ROM drive, check it again, and now both units are in "PIO mode". Here's a screenshot from the single processor machine. This one has an IBM Deskstar as the master, and a Sony CD-ROM burner as the slave. You'll notice that both are set to use DMA "if available," but in fact both are in Programmed IO mode.This may well vary by chipset and whatnot. Right now it happens on both of my Windows machines, one with the AMD 760 chipset and the other with a VIA KT-133 chipset.

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>I think we are talking about two different things. There
>were some early dual-channel IDE controller designs that
>shared some data paths. Those could lead to data corruption.
>Nobody does that anymore. Bob,very good point, and one that I had not checked for some time.
The other thing I had not checked for a long time (since I built my box) was the properties as you displayed.My configuration is:-
Gigabyte ga-7dxr AMD 761+686B agpset
W2k sp280Gb dma mode
cd reader pio mode
40Gb dma mode
cd writer pio modethis is on a similar board to yours.So even if the hardware has more registers, it is up to the OS to drive them properly, or maybe its an install thing?Ok Bob and Henk, we may have all the 'technically' correct hardware but there is still a gap somewhere.Henk, what do the properties of your primary and secondary controllers show?The end result here:-keep hd's on one channel and cd's on the other unless you can prove that your hardware/os combination can run them 'properly'.Derek

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>Henk, what do the properties of your primary and secondary
>controllers show?
>Primary Master on ultraDma = Samsung SV ATAIV 60GB 5400rpm
Primary Slave on UltraDma = Seagate Barrac. ATA-IV 60GB 7200 rpmSecondary master on Dma = Asus 50Max CD-Rom U-Dma 33
Secondary Slave on Dma = LG GCE 8320B pio4Mobo MSI KT266 pro raid
(i do not use raid, controller is not trustw. my fault.. don't ask)OS = W2K-sp3, I see we are both on W2K ???Greets Henk.

~Computers aren't intelligent, they only think they are.~

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>Henk,
>
>As with Bob, you are quoting 3 year old information which is
>now incorrect.
>All current IDE chipsets have seperate registers for the
>devices atached to it so that both devices can run at their
>rated top speed.
>Check out www.tomshardware.com if you want some reading.
>
Derek;
Did heard something about it, awhile back but was under the impression, that the IDE-Raid controllers had that ability, and not the normal IDE controllers, 'cause when that is true somebody ought to tell my windows that, for on my system one CD-Rom = ATA33 & CD-writer= Pio4 but their both on dma-mode, and not one on UltraDma !?
which it will not change.
I'm trying to find anything about that subject (can't find it at Tom's)
and if so, then i beg your pardon
Greets Henk.

~Computers aren't intelligent, they only think they are.~

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>and not one on UltraDma !?
>which it will not change.
>I'm trying to find anything about that subject (can't find
>it at Tom's)
>and if so, then i beg your pardon Henk,On both Bobs and my system only DMA is mentioned, if the hardware is capable AND you have 80 conductor cables, your system will run Udma.
Your bios will usually tell you the interface used on the startup screen.http://www6.tomshardware.com/mainboard/20000714/440bx-03.html gives some background to Udma.
http://support.premiopc.com/faqs/ultradma.htm more info here.Derek

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hihi were makeing a mess of the topic.
please read nr. 14Greets Henk.

~Computers aren't intelligent, they only think they are.~

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