Raildriver by PI Engineering review available

I was fortuate to be included in some early beta testing of Raildriver by PI Engineering. It came at a good time because I've been testing my own activities for the WV&O package which I hope to release real soon. I wrote up a review which you can download (1.1 meg). Please check my News page at my site for access to this review. I've asked both avsim and train-sim to also host the review as well. The review includes my own pictures of Raildriver plus my opinions of the unit. In a nutshell, it's a fantastic piece of equipment.www.edmfamily.com/msts/news.htmFor more information on Raildriver: www.raildriver.comRich Garber

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RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, chattanooga_choo_choo, Dec-15-02, 10:51 PM, (1) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, Franklin, Dec-15-02, 10:57 PM, (2) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, rgarber, Dec-15-02, 11:26 PM, (5) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, Franklin, Dec-16-02, 02:18 PM, (11) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, rgarber, Dec-16-02, 03:17 PM, (12) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, brucek, Dec-18-02, 02:18 AM, (28) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, cdntrains, Dec-15-02, 11:00 PM, (3) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, Fred_Huntley, Dec-15-02, 11:04 PM, (4) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, ge44tonner, Dec-15-02, 11:45 PM, (6) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, CaptFuzzy4, Dec-15-02, 11:59 PM, (7) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, HawK53, Dec-16-02, 02:40 AM, (8) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, RailDriver, Dec-17-02, 10:05 AM, (16) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, bnsf1959, Dec-16-02, 03:46 AM, (9) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, rgarber, Dec-16-02, 11:01 AM, (10) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, Coonskin, Dec-16-02, 03:45 PM, (13) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, TimCourt, Dec-17-02, 09:16 AM, (14) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, downside, Dec-17-02, 09:46 AM, (15) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, rgarber, Dec-17-02, 10:34 AM, (17) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, downside, Dec-17-02, 10:46 AM, (18) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, HawK53, Dec-17-02, 11:02 AM, (19) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, Paul_Boland, Dec-17-02, 02:25 PM, (20) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, TimCourt, Dec-17-02, 02:58 PM, (21) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, rgarber, Dec-17-02, 03:32 PM, (22) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, downside, Dec-17-02, 03:55 PM, (23) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, kyleh24, Dec-17-02, 03:56 PM, (24) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, RailDriver, Dec-17-02, 08:46 PM, (25) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, Macster, Dec-17-02, 09:18 PM, (26) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, UtilityInfielder, Dec-18-02, 00:28 AM, (27) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, rgarber, Dec-18-02, 07:54 AM, (29) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, RailDriver, Dec-18-02, 07:55 AM, (30) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, cn_bayview, Dec-18-02, 03:52 PM, (31) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, rgarber, Dec-18-02, 04:20 PM, (32) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, cn_bayview, Dec-18-02, 04:58 PM, (33) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, rgarber, Dec-18-02, 05:05 PM, (34) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, RailDriver, Dec-19-02, 07:19 PM, (42) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, highball5, Dec-18-02, 06:37 PM, (35) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, rgarber, Dec-18-02, 07:04 PM, (36) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, TimCourt, Dec-18-02, 09:00 PM, (37) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, krswen, Dec-18-02, 09:10 PM, (38) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, rgarber, Dec-19-02, 00:09 AM, (39) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, Paul_Boland, Dec-19-02, 02:30 PM, (40) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, highball5, Dec-19-02, 06:27 PM, (41) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, Macster, Dec-19-02, 07:23 PM, (43) RE: Raildriver by PI Engineering review available, ohmcno, Dec-19-02, 07:33 PM, (44)

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Thanks for the information.

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-02 AT 11:12 PM (EST)

Nice review, Rich! I have a few questions to ask you regarding the RailDriver:
• Do you use your whole hands to move the throttle, reverser, and automatic and locomotive brake handles or do you use your thumb and finger to move them?
• Do the throttle, reverser, and automatic and locomotive brakes return to their positions automatically at the start of an activity (such as the reverser moving from the forward position to the neutral position, the automatic brakes moving from 2% brakes applied to 67% brakes applied, etc.)?
• Have you received any errors from using it, such as a "no response" when you're pushing a button or moving a handle?
• What kind of mail service would send e-mails to people's doors and why do you use it?Hope to hear what you have to say to these questions.

One of ACR's Acela Express trains, courtesy of Alex Stroshane

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Thanks. The unit is alot of fun to use.1 - The levers are generally a couple of inches higher than their housing so no you don't use your whole hand to move them. They move pretty easily but their is just enough resistance to them that they give you the feel you moving something with substance to it. If you ever messed with Nautilus equipment and had the setting on real light, it's like that. Smooth but with some resistance.2 - No, none of the levers move back to the original positions automatically.3 - In my testing, I didn't get any errors like that. Generally the Raildriver pretty much ran flawlessly. I was testing activities that I just created whose durations are 2.5 hours long. If anything, my testing went much better than expected because the driving frustration was not there.4 - I'm glad you asked that question cause the guy took my wallet and hasn't returned with it.Hope this helps. I do want to say this though. I've owned some pretty expensive flight gear that cost me hundreds more that I didn't get this kind of performance with. What's neat too, if you are a model railroader like me, they say they intend to adapt the unit for model railroading.Thanks for asking. Rich Garber

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It sure does help. Thanks, Rich, but it looks like I won't be buying this product. Although, the people at RailDriver created a great train cab controller, they (and I know they can hear us from here) should definitely consider creating a wider t.c.c. as wide or more wider than our keyboards, and bigger reverser, throttle, automatic and independent brake handles for the average hand palms. This would certainly make all MSTS and Trainz fans alot happier and confident enough in buying a "wider" t.c.c. (I hope it doesn't cost more than the current t.c.c.)It's a good thing that you're not receiving any "no response when you press a button or move a handle for MSTS not to receive the message" errors.All I can say to you and anyone else who buys this product, enjoy it as much as you can as if you're a real engineer!

One of ACR's Acela Express trains, courtesy of Alex Stroshane

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I took some rough measurements for ya.The image is from the calibration screen. As you calibrate each lever, that little blue box moves over them so you know which lever you are calibrating. Anyway these are rough measurements I made.Those labeled tall are from the lever stem originating just above the housing to the top of the lever grip.Those measurements between the levers (ie 1.1 and 2.5) are from the lever stem to lever stem and not the closest points of the lever grips.The lever stems themselves appear to be 5/16ths thick.The lever grips themselves appear to be 1" in width with the exception of the auto brake which is 2.5" thick.Hope this helps.Rich Garber

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-18-02 AT 02:18 AM (EST)

Quote:-"...should definitely consider creating a wider t.c.c. as wide or more wider than our keyboards, and bigger reverser, throttle, automatic and independent brake handles for the average hand palms. This would certainly make all MSTS and Trainz fans alot happier and confident enough in buying a "wider" t.c.c........"The size offered is ideal, as far as I'm concerned.
One thing I don't need is a train control console as large as real life sitting on my (limited space) home-office desk! Bruce.

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Thanks for the info.Apparently raildriver will have a review of their own sometime soon http://www.raildriver.com/reviews.html (but by the developer themselves??)btw, nice to see you again Rich.cdntrains
"Laying the track from SEA to SKY"

http://groups.msn.com/BCRSquamishSub
-----------------------------
RRing around the Great Lakes:
http://www.greatlakesrail.com

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I wonder if they could flip it on its side and make a GP-38 control stand out of it.

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Hi Fred.
One of the 'coming attractions' listed on the RailDriver website was a set of full-size reproductions of control stand levers. The reproductions are apparently set up with electronic controls to interface with either MSTS or a RailDriver 'X-box'. THese components could presumably be assembled into a reproduction of a GP38 control panel.
I was once able to obtain most of a control stand from a scrapped C&NW GP7. My approach will eventually be to get the electronic components installed into the GP7 control stand and make up a MSTS-based simulator, as an educational exhibit, for the local rail museum.
Dan

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Nice review!! I was already considering getting one, but after reading your review, I'm DEFINITLY getting one. Nice job Rich!!

CSX-The Spirit of West Virginia Coal.

CSX Tri-State Route-Building the Barboursville Yard. (Tricky stuff!!)

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Thanks for the review Rich,
I hope it will be available soon (in Holland?).
It really looks like a must have!!Greets Henk.

~Computers aren't intelligent, they only think they are.~

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Henk, The unit weights 9.5 lbs in its shipping box. We found that shipping from the US to Europe would cost over $60. We have an agreement with a company in Germany, Aerosoft ( www.aerosoft.de)to be a direct ship point from our factory. They will handle distribution in Europe. This should make shipping to our European Customers much less expensive. We will provide technical support to any customer regardless of where it was purchased. Additionally we have a direct shipping point in Australia with Auran (Trainz). We hope this will help our international customers.Michael

RailDriver engineer

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Thanks Rich for the reviews and info. I'll be getting mine in January which it's not too far. Ken
"United We Stand."
"Love America or Get Out!"

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A good question came in about the Raildriver via email that I didn't cover in my review. Here goes..."Do you have to use the Raildriver speaker setup?"Nope. You can avoid using the speaker setup all together if for some reason the number of outputs of your audio card differ from the audio input of the Raildriver. Raildriver uses this to create the vibration for the unit. Further, you don't even have to plug in the transformer that comes with the unit. The Raildriver gets it power from the USB port. The transfer is to give you power for the internal speaker.Rich Garber

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Waaaaaaaaahhhhhhh!!! You guys are having way too much fun with that new-fangled "modern" train console.I wanaa' stand for my Geeps and F's!!!I wanna' stand for my 1880's narrow gauge steamers!I wanna' play too! Waaaaaaahhhhhhhh!Andre "Cry Baby" Ming

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Rich,Sounds like you are having fun!I have personally put in alot of time on testing the unit and can tell you that considering MSTS was never designed for external control this is a great unit to have around.Switching/Shunting is much more fun too.For those in Europe, the unit will be distributed in Europe so you won't be paying large shipping costs having them sent to you.

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It's going to be great for those with physical disabilities and cannot operate a mouse. Will open up MSTS to a whole new range of users hopefully. Looking forward to hearing what they have to say about it (although I believe I read in another thread some while ago one of the developers/testers does have a physical disability).A review is also athttp://microsoftgamesinsider.com/TrainSimulator/NewsAndFeatures/RailDriver.htmAnd Henk - it can be preordered from http://www.aerosoft.com/cgi-local/en/iboshop.cgi?showd280,3167903230,20028_1 in Germany.Bill

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Tim,Yep the unit is working like a charm. Tested a grueling 1.5 hour activity with all kinds of switching moves and the unit performed flawlessly without a glitch. So much so that the 'stress' of testing an activity was non-apparent.I should say too that I notice I 'behave' like someone operating an engine. I pay more attention to the phyiscs of the engine because the Raildriver adds a 'delay' to what I do. So to avoid overcompensating for the delay I anticipate what the engine will do. Now I don't know if delay is exactly the right word for this but it's like you push the gas pedal of the car and though it responds, it doesn't necessarily jump from 0 to 60 instantaneously. I don't know if this was an intended consequence of the Raildriver but it's pretty cool.Then again, you could also look at this another way too. Because it's a lever and not a keyboard, it's easier to 'demand' more from the engine and not realize it. I do tend to be a bit more on the conservative side while operating the engines with Raildriver. With the MSTS keyboard/mouse controls, I tended to fling engines about the track when testing or running activities. Much of this was because of the frustration of operating the keyboard/mouse.But like I said in the review, the Raildriver becomes 'transparent' to running msts. It's such a natural extension of what you want to do, you reach for levers and knobs naturally whereas with the default controls it never felt right or behaved in a way that I enjoyed running activities.I had gotten away from creating heavy switching activities because they got to be so frustrating. The Raildriver unit may become a 'requirement' of activity developers creating heavy switching activities.Rich Garber

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I read your review from a switching point of view as I rarely do anything other than that type of activity and find the mouse cumbersome.It is a definite must as far as I am concerned. Thank heavens they have a European distributor looking at the suggested carriage costs from their works. It will also cut out import taxes coming from an EC Country as something that heavy is bound to attract the attention of the Customs.Bill

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Bah.. Some guy's have all the fun
Such a talent for Route building, and now he can play all day with his thing.. euh mean his stick, errm.. sorry his raildriver-console>And Henk - it can be preordered from http://www.aerosoft.com/cgi->local/en/iboshop.cgi?showd280,3167903230,20028_1 in Germany.Yes Ries(Cyberboss) from MSTS.nl was planning on importing it
but don't know how that's going.
but ill get it somehow even if it means to go abroad,
and get someones betaversion Greets Henk.

~Computers aren't intelligent, they only think they are.~

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Hi.Thanks for the great review. I was seriously considering purchasing this unit and was waiting for some reviews to appear before committing myself one way or another.I've never invested in any thing like this before; no joysticks, no flight sticks, no steering wheels; so this could mark my first ventures into this area.Just wanted to ask about something in your review first...
You said that for RailDriver to work, it is necessary for the the F5 data to be displayed on screen. This is something I am not overly fond of as I don't use this data, find it distracting. Is this feature still needed in the commercial model of RailDriver or was it just present in the BETA model? What would happen if you did not have this data displayed? Be assured, that I will more then likely invest in this controller, regardless of your answer, but was just curious about this.Thanks.

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Paul,I can answer that for you Trouble is MSTS was never designed for control by external hardware so there is no provision for it, so , Raidriver has to rely on this information to run, so, yes the HUD info does need to be displayed.Tim

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I wasn't too fond of this when I first heard about it a couple of months ago, either. But after running it a bunch I don't even notice it unless I'm looking for it specifically. With msts, there's a view Shift + 1 (no cab view) I didn't know about before. With Raildriver I run this view primarily because the F5 info and the Raildriver provide enough feedback to operate the engine without seeing all the gauges. I believe I'm getting better frame rates because of this and I like the view better (it's my route ). If you need to take a picture you can press the F5 key to turn off the text but it will come back on automatically after a few seconds. So you can get your picture without the extra text. But you do have to have the F5 text available but you won't notice it. There's another way to do this too. Let's say you just gotta have Raildriver out of the picture for whatever reason. Just press the Raildriver Run/Stop button and Raildriver goes into stand-by. At any time you can press the Run/stop button again and Raildriver is active again.Hope this helps! Rich Garber

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Just a thought on the HUD (F5) - I don't know enough about colours to know if you can have a 'non-colour' but I presume it would be possible to alter the HUD colours (unless it is hard coded) to the faintest of greys or blues so that it was barely discernable.Anybody have any thoughts on this?Bill

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I'm wondering if the F5 view can be hacked like someone did with the other Drivers Aid Box. If so you might could "color" the text to something that is almost invisible... Just a thought

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It is actually possible to "hack" the color but then we (raildriver driver) could not see it. We only get to know the speed and other control settings through a small screen capture. The pure red (255, 0,0) color is very unique so it does not require much effort (computer CPU time) to OCR the red letters. Since pure red of this type is very rare in the back ground we never loose this infomation for long. I suppose if you parked right in front of a coca cola sign with no shaddow we might not see the data until you moved. Michael

RailDriver engineer

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Another Question.Alot of the locomotives out have a "Holding" feature for the Automatic brake, would the "holding" line have to be removed in order to make Raildriver work prototypically? Or is that line just fine as it is?Brake_Train ( 0 1 0.0125 0.75
NumNotches ( 5
Notch( 0 0 TrainBrakesControllerReleaseStart )
Notch( 0.3 1 TrainBrakesControllerGraduatedSelfLapLimitedHoldingStart ) <------ This is what I mean
Notch( 0.85 0 TrainBrakesControllerSuppressionStart )
Notch( 0.9 0 TrainBrakesControllerContinuousServiceStart )
Notch( 0.95 0 TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyStart )

Brian E. Bundridge

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Michael, Pic below 1s 1080 x 1024; the HUD has larger font, Italic style lettering, and is orange. I set it up like that a year ago.OK, If I just switch it over to red 255,0,0 and leave the Italics and larger size font, then raildriver will work OK, I'm thinking ?

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-18-02 AT 07:57 AM (EST)

Bruce,I can add that the Raildriver works in any resolution btw. I forgot to mention that in the review.Hope this helps.Rich Garber

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Until we can get Microsoft on board we really need the default font, placement and color. We do not use a complicated OCR routine to minimize impact on performance. The other cool transparent driving aids you made will not be a problem we only need the data that comes from the "F5" HUD.By the way Microsoft really is "On board" see http://microsoftgamesinsider.com/TrainSimulator/NewsAndFeatures/RailDriver.htm the last picture is Rick "on board" our full size simulator. I assure you everything that can be done, is being done to assure complete compatibility for the future. Both companies understand the importance of a complete external interface such as provided by flight simulator. Michael

RailDriver engineer

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-18-02 AT 03:55 PM (EST)

I can't wait to get one of those babies!
One question Rich;
You said you didn't use your whole hand to move the levers, But could you? is there enough room so you could???
Thanks
RobBTW:
Any one know how long it would be to ship to Canada? (few days week? any ideas?)
ThanksEdit:
Raildriver;
Will the DC analog be purchased seperatly and can be used with a controller purchased at a different time or will be installed into the controler?
Thanks

Rob.
Mile 21.0 CN Oakville Sub.

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Rob,I have small hands (I'm 5'6") so I can get my whole hands on one of the levers, the autobrake. The throttle I can if I twist my hand backwards because there's more open space between the throttle and autobrake than the throttle and reverser. The two levers, locomotive brake and reverser are too short. Generally I use three fingers to move the levers.I'll tell ya what though...No reason why you couldn't extend the stem by using some kinda tubing that would slip over the stem after you cut the knob off. Granted I'm sure the warranty is out the window with that or maybe we can convice the raildriver gang to allow the knobs screw-on and screw-off and offer an exyender.Model Railroading kitbashing at its best! Rich Garber

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Thanks Rich!
I'm 5'5" at the moment so it would probably work!
I can't wait for it!
Good idea about the tubing, once the warranty is gone and if the knobs screw off i'll give it a go!
Thanks for the review! And the quick response!!

Rob.
Mile 21.0 CN Oakville Sub.

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The knobs don't screw off. You'd have to cut them off. But if we cut into the stem, the knobs are off anyway. I figure a brass sleeve over a wooden dowel would do the trick. Might be that the only two you'd want to do that to is the Throttle and Autobrake.Did I say we????? Rich Garber

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"Raildriver;
Will the DC analog be purchased seperatly and can be used with a controller purchased at a different time or will be installed into the controler?"Yes, the DC and DCC modules will be additional boxes that the RailDriver will plug into. So you can purchase later (that's good since it is not ready). You will be able to have the DC module wired up the model tracks and simply plug the RailDriver USB connector into the module (no computer required). When you are done, pull the plug, go back to the computer, plug it in and run MSTS or simulator of choice. Michael

RailDriver engineer

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Maybe I missed this in the reviews and info I've read, just curious as to how dynamic
braking is 'handled' by the RailDriver unit. Does the throttle handle have run/brake
positions as in a combined control?

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Good question.. sorry about not including that in the review. Yes, the throttle does both. Pulling the throttle down acts as throttle. Pushing it up acts as dynamic brake. There's a dead space inbetween which is notched so to speak so you don't accidentally spill into the other.Rich Garber

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Th RailDriver has preset "Notches" on the brakes so all barking stages are catered for , with a little practise the brake lever can be brought up till its just short of an application which helps if you are switching, once you have done a few runs you will get to know where these positions are (A bit like getting to know a new car). which increases the driving experience no end.I found when driving along just hauling a trin I tend to rest my hand on the brakes/ throttle from time to time and havent "Accidentally" applied anything I shouldnt have whilst driving.If you like high speed passeger driving you aso get a little of that missing sensation of speed too, the acela is great fun! hadn't driven it much before

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I sent the maker's an e-mail directly, but I thought I'd repeat the question here for the benefit of others with setups like mine.A couple months ago we had a lightning strike at our house that fried the Boston Acoustics digital speakers that came with my Gateway (incredibly the computer was unharmed). So, I changed my audio card (Soundblaster Live) to analog output and now run it through a Harmon Kardon stereo amplifier and drive a huge set of analog speakers. It's great!However, for the audio pass-through in the RailDriver, will I have to go back to digital output and speakers?krswen

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-02 AT 00:11 AM (EST)

I got a question like this in an email and I think I talked about it here somewhere but you can do two things here.First idea is to not use the Raildriver speaker hookup at all. You don't have to. You won't get the vibration but with the setup I think you have, your probably getting that already! LOL!!Second, use a splitter of sorts (1 input to two output stereo jack) on the back of your audio card so you can have one output going to your amplifier and use the other one to your Raildriver. Raildriver has an amplitude knob so you'll be able to adjust it separately from your speaker controls. I'm thinking you probably want to keep the output from your audio card soft so as not to overdrive your amplifier. So to get any appreciable vibration from the Raildriver, I would think you'd have that knob turned up a bit more than the rest of us.I believe one of the two above would work for you.Rich GarberOh.. I meant to add that I am already doing this btw. I have one output going to raildriver, and the other is connected to my speakers. Normally the other connection goes to a mixing board which goes into my second music computer. -e

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The more I read about this controller, the more impressed I am becoming...

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>> Yes, the throttle does bothIt's unusual for me to drool like this over something that isn't wearing a mini-skirt!
Thanks for the info and review, Rich!

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ROFL!! Yeah.. i was thinking the same, then my gf backhanded me

Brian E. Bundridge

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I can attest to everything Rich has said about this unit - it is absolutely terrific. One thing I have found - once you've started using it, you'll never go back to the keyboard!The feel of the throttle and brake are quite natural. I find myself resting my hand on the brake quite frequently (as you feel the vibration through it). The desk I have my computer on vibrates slightly as well. Very cool. I have my audio passing through the device to my speaker system, and this arrangement works nicely.One side benefit to this unit is I can navigate through most menus with the controller as opposed to the keyboard.To sum it it up - I LOVE this thing!!!!!Michael MacFall
North American Locomotive Works
http://nalw.macfall.com

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