Need help - MSTS crashing constantly

I need help from anyone that's fairly knowledgeable about computers. MSTS has been crashing here for a while, with both Win2K and XP Pro on this machine. I even saw a 'blue-screen-of-death' last night (XP) telling me I had a page-fault in a non-page area (?)The crashes ALWAYS occur once the game is started, and the train is in motion. I'm trying to figure out weather it's my Norton Systemworks program, or some other app I have installed. I don't want to tie up the board here with constant replies, so I'll ask those willing to help to do so by e-mail.Thanks in advance...Scott
w2sjw@arrl.net

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RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, Stumbl, Dec-15-02, 09:14 AM, (1) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, w2sjw, Dec-15-02, 09:40 AM, (2) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, Hack, Dec-15-02, 09:53 AM, (3) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, w2sjw, Dec-15-02, 10:16 AM, (4) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, HawK53, Dec-15-02, 10:38 AM, (5) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, w2sjw, Dec-15-02, 06:06 PM, (6) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, Bing, Dec-15-02, 06:44 PM, (7) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, w2sjw, Dec-15-02, 06:53 PM, (8) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, w2sjw, Dec-15-02, 09:35 PM, (9) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, Stumbl, Dec-15-02, 10:12 PM, (10) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, Bing, Dec-15-02, 10:30 PM, (11) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, w2sjw, Dec-16-02, 07:28 AM, (12) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, HawK53, Dec-16-02, 07:51 AM, (13) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, bob hahn, Dec-16-02, 10:28 AM, (14) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, mailer_daemon, Dec-16-02, 11:11 AM, (16) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, baldwin, Dec-16-02, 03:40 PM, (21) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, bjrhatigan, Dec-16-02, 10:49 AM, (15) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, w2sjw, Dec-16-02, 02:39 PM, (17) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, w2sjw, Dec-16-02, 03:28 PM, (18) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, jtsdadinaz, Dec-16-02, 03:31 PM, (19) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, derekmorton, Dec-16-02, 03:31 PM, (20) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, bjrhatigan, Dec-16-02, 06:10 PM, (22) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, Bing, Dec-16-02, 06:29 PM, (23) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, w2sjw, Dec-16-02, 07:16 PM, (24) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, Stumbl, Dec-16-02, 09:03 PM, (25) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, Bing, Dec-17-02, 02:02 AM, (26) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, oldiedaddy, Dec-17-02, 08:59 AM, (27) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, Bing, Dec-17-02, 10:25 AM, (28) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, Stumbl, Dec-17-02, 10:47 AM, (29) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, w2sjw, Dec-17-02, 05:41 PM, (30) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, Stumbl, Dec-17-02, 06:49 PM, (31) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, Bing, Dec-18-02, 10:44 AM, (32) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, Stumbl, Dec-18-02, 11:48 AM, (34) RE: Need help - MSTS crashing constantly, chucksc, Dec-18-02, 11:47 AM, (33)

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Tieing up the boards can help if someone else is having a similar issue...does this happen always on the same activity , route , etc ?
loco?what about drivers and system specs?

"I do what my Rice Krispies tell me to do"

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Ok, here's the specsWindows XP Pro SP1
1GB Ram
Leadtek A250TD GF4 4600
Asus A7V333 mobo
DirectX 8.1 (I think this came pre-installed with the SP1)The game crashes either way under the 40.72 and the 41.09 nvidia drivers. I'm not overclocking the CPU or the video card. It doesn't matter what train or route I pick, but after the train gets going for a while, the screen freezes, and then I hear a successive loop of the following: short, high-pitched squeal, static burst, game sounds, repeat....I have a strange feeling that it might be another app I have have installed, like my firewall or my anti-virus program. But, when I disabled them both, the crashes still occur. Now I'm at a big loss trying to figure out what's crashing it. I even got it to crash without any add-ins (ie: Sky Conductor2). Scott

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Do you have the latest updates for your mobo? If it uses an onboard sound system, then this might be where the problem lies.Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.comPro Series Super Packs

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I have disabled the on-board sound through the Windows device manager (I have the newest mobo BIOS, and I am using a SB Audigy MP3+ sound card with it's most current drivers) because there was no disable function in the BIOS screens (very strange). I have just run the game a couple of times after putting the 41.09 drivers back in, and I have my GF4 soft-quadro enabled. The sim behaved this time (even though I am experiencing the lower fps people have reported: 19-26 on the NEC)!! I was running the new TGV Duplex at full speed, trying to crash the sim, and it didn't. This might be a situation of having to sacrifice a few fps for game stability...Scott

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I see you have a Asus A7V333 motherboard,
did you try the new via drivers (VIAHyperion4in1445v)?
Also, I had many many crashes (bluescreens) with W2K, dropped my SBlive,
and most of them have gone !?, try it with the onboard sound, with the SB out. (do not forget to deinstall the SB-drivers)
Also Here at AMD try the AGP patch for W2K (works for XP too)
it is a largepagefile registry setting,
it is the first thing I do after a new install.
Never mind windowsXP saying it doesnt need new drivers, install the newest!!
System:
MoBo = MSI-KT266 pro raid Via KT266
via drivers: 445v (Hyperion)
mem = 2x 256mb_cl2.5 Hyund. DDR266mhz
Cpu = Amd Athlon 1600xp+
HD = Samsung SV_6004H 60gb & Seagate Barracuda ATA-IV 60gb
Vid = Hercules 4500 KyroII driver: vivid 1.06.16.55
OS = W2000 sp3- DX9 beta-rc2
Sound = Terratec DMX Xfire driver: 5.12.1.3056
Lan = realtek 8139 driver: 5.505.1004.2002
Mon = Dell 1025HE (Sony Trinitron) 17"
FPS on the NEC 20 - 35
Greets Henk.

~Computers aren't intelligent, they only think they are.~

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I'll give those new update drivers a try. Maybe I'll ditch the SB Audigy for a Turtle-Beach Santa Cruz. I've seen a couple of other users here say they've had good experiences with them.Scott

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I run MSTS successfully with the Turtle Beach Santa Cruz soundcard on both a P3 1.0 Ghz Win98SE system and an AMD XP2000+ WinXP Home system, both with 512 Meg RAM. I would go slow on the latest nVidia beta drivers, you can read about it on the Guru3D forum at: http://www.guru3d.com/ --- in many cases frame rates went down. I use 30.30 drivers for both the Win98SE Asus V-8200 and the WinXP Home Visiontek Ti-4400, with excellent results.The only sound problem I had was initially in Win98: Via the MultiMedia shortcut in Control Panel it was necessary to set the device as "Game Compatible Device" or TS would crash. WinXP doesn't have this problem, I've had zero audio problems thus far, including MOHAA and RtCW. I don't know how it is going these days. Not so long ago, a number of the gamers I know were removing their Sound Blasters and putting cards such as the Aureal3D, so many conflicts with SB it wasn't worth the hassle. I've heard the SB programmers did very sloppy code, I think that is a possibility, don't know about currently. Wouldn't be surprised, however.Also not surprised about the number of bugs and the bad code in the WinXP SP1 release, it has been recommended by people who normally suck up to MS that the SP1 not be used if at all possible. If its sound quality that concerns you, the TB Santa Cruz is top of the line. I have a 2.1 MOnsoon set (not the latest less expensive ones) and the TS sound will shake the room, clean sound too: it compares nicely with the big sound rig I run for music. Also, when it comes to WinXP, the defualt is to run a mess of "services" you will almost certainly never need and they will be doing nothing but pulling down your performance. Read about it at: http://www.blkviper.com/WinXP/strangeservice.htm --- some of these may be interfering with the TS game engine.Lastly, if you aren't using Cacheman I would certainly recommend getting it. Cacheman is the only app that boots on either of my systems - every app you have running in the background is a potential game killer, that includes anything to do with "scheduled maintenance" - sorry, I do my own maintenance. Daily. The worst Win98 crash I ever had was due to OUtlook Express "compacting" messages in the background, I mean the computer shut down and an alarm went off, it was that bad, I had to pull the power plug from the wall outlet. Lots of suspects for your crashes; eliminate them one area at a time. No reason you should have this kind of trouble with a new system. By the way, if you are running cable or almost aything other than a mouse by USB and it is "live" when you fire up TS, look out. To each his own: To me, USB is a bad joke.Bing

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I tried the other two updates, with no success. I think I'll pull the SB card and go with a Santa Cruz. I'd love to use the C-Media on-board sound, but I NEED a front & rear output, and the mobo only has 1 speaker output. Anybody have any idea why there's no command in the BIOS to disable the on-board sound? I just updated to the 1015 revision, and still can't find it.ThanksScott

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Bing,I'm wondering if I should just be safe and use the latest drivers from Leadtek themselves on this A250TD. I ran them when I had this machine as a Win2k, and noticed that the display icon was the 'older' rotating nVidia symbol, not the 'banner' I get now under display properties. The only issue is that their version #'s don't correspond to anything that matches nVidia's !Scott

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if you are getting looping sound issues I would check that the video and the sound are using different IRQs
caveat: XP isn't known for letting you adjust these within Windows itself , you could still possible set that slot ( for sound OR video ) to a different IRQ within the biosthis fixed similar issues for me in the pasthope this is helpful , and good luck

"I do what my Rice Krispies tell me to do"

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>Bing,
>
>I'm wondering if I should just be safe and use the latest
>drivers from Leadtek themselves on this A250TD. I ran them
>when I had this machine as a Win2k, and noticed that the
>display icon was the 'older' rotating nVidia symbol, not the
>'banner' I get now under display properties. The only issue
>is that their version #'s don't correspond to anything that
>matches nVidia's !
>
>Scott Manufacturer drivers might be "safe" - they might not do a thing for your problem, either. Generally the nVidia driver that has "matured" for a time can be used. I agree that from what you describe the trouble is more likely to be an IRQ conflict. Isn't supposed to happen in WinXP - uh huh, sure - but one method is to uninstall - plysically remove - then reinstall the board or boards, sometimes this helps. If you do think there is a video driver problem, there is always the possibility that if you changed drivers you have pieces of more than one driver set and that is bad. What you have to do is find Detonator Destroyer, then you have to reboot in Safe mode and switch to a generic video driver, then you reboot and use Detonator Destroyer, then you reboot and reinstall your nVidia drivers. Its a pain in the you-know-what, but it also will answer the question of driver conflicts and so far as I know its the only way to be sure. nVidia installation routines seem to be OK, others are not and the only way I know to be sure about reverting to an earlier driver version is to do the above with Detonator Destroyer. If you have an absolutely complete file list/locations you can do it manually, but if you miss something .....Bing

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OK, I'm here's what I saw in my bios:IRQ assignments for 1&5. 2,3,4 were all set to auto.The IRQ screen on boot up moved by way too fast to see what the settings were at.Windows device manager said this about each of the cards:Video
PCI Bus 1, Device 0, Function 0Audio
PCI Bus 0, Device 13, Function 0Any more advice on how to get any mis-assignments on these cards straightened out is greatly appreciated. I know a fair amount about my machine, but now we're treading in an area where I have little knowledge...Scott

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Press "pause/break" on startup to see the settings
altough W2K & Xp are very good at irq sharing, i had no problem with that.
Try placing your S-basterd in an other PCI slot might help, but leave PCI slot 0 free, (the one right under the AGP port), as it shares it's IRQ with the AGP port.
Is there in your Bios not a onboard-pheriphal section ? there is were you should be able to disable your onboard Crystal-sound (if not it is probebly auto-disabled (maybe).Greets Henk.

~Computers aren't intelligent, they only think they are.~

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IRQ assignments for 1&5. 2,3,4 were all set to auto.To find out how they ended up being set, run Dxdiag. (Go the Start menu, choose "Run", then type in 'dxdiag').You have to give dxdiag a few seconds, then hit the "More Help" tab.
On the 'More Help' tab, click the button marked "MSInfo".When the System Information tool opens up, click your way to "Hardware Resources->Conflicts/Sharing". You should get a screen that looks like this:

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Did you try to disable some programs one-by-one and test if your MSTS runs properly this time?To do this, go to run and type in 'msconfig', then go to the 'Startup' tab and uncheck the offending program you suspect. You can always reverse the action if you're wrong.Also, check for spyware. Most of the time it's these programs that tend to do 'underhand' stuff to your computer.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/rogorox/

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On the Asus A7V333 you have to move a jumper on the mobo to disable onboard sound. I cant tell you which one coz I don't have my manual to hand.

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Could be heat.
Does this happen when you run any other graphics intensuve app?I had constant weird lockups, etc., running just train sim. Same thing with FS2002, but only after running it for more than a 1/2 hr or so. My CPU temps were averaging 54-55 degrees C. Then I added another fan. Temps dropped down to 48-49. And all problems dissappeared.Good Luck.

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Ah, yes. Here's what I got when I ran dxdiag:
IRQ 0 System timer OK
IRQ 3 Communications Port (COM2) OK
IRQ 4 Communications Port (COM1) OK
IRQ 6 Standard floppy disk controller OK
IRQ 8 System CMOS/real time clock OK
IRQ 9 Microsoft ACPI-Compliant System OK
IRQ 13 Numeric data processor OK
IRQ 14 Primary IDE Channel OK
IRQ 15 Secondary IDE Channel OK
IRQ 16 NVIDIA GeForce4 Ti 4600 OK
IRQ 16 VIA Rev 5 or later USB Universal Host Controller OK
IRQ 16 Creative SB Audigy OK
IRQ 17 VIA USB Enhanced Host Controller OK
IRQ 17 OHCI Compliant IEEE 1394 Host Controller OK
IRQ 17 NEC PCI to USB Open Host Controller OK
IRQ 18 NEC PCI to USB Open Host Controller OK
IRQ 18 AOpen AON-325 10/100M Fast Ethernet PCI Adapter OK
IRQ 19 VIA Rev 5 or later USB Universal Host Controller OK
IRQ 19 WinXP Promise Ultra100 TX2 (tm) IDE Controller OK
IRQ 19 NEC PCI to USB Enhanced Host Controller (B1) OK
IRQ 21 VIA Rev 5 or later USB Universal Host Controller OK
IRQ 21 VIA Rev 5 or later USB Universal Host Controller OKAny suggestions as to if I should re-assign the video or the audio to another IRQ (and where)? I can't move the first PCI device out of it's slot, because it's my IDE controller. I also discovered that you can disable the onboard audio on an A7V333 with the proper jumper, regardless of the fact that I'm using jumper-free mode. I ran the sim 4 times after killing the onboard audio with no crash, but I am still concerned over the shared IRQ..Thanks again for all the help, guys!
Scott

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Ok, just an update - I ran the NEC almost half-way through before it crashed this time. Re-booted, and the damn CPU was up to 65 C/147 F in temp!! I have a Thermaltake Volcano 7+ sitting here, but the system refuses to boot when I put it on the chip. Any idea what the yellow wire with the separate connector coming out of this thing is for? It has the same plug as the main power input...Scott

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If it has a normal plug like a drive, it is the 12v line.

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Scott,the yellow wire is for speed control of the fan.
if not used the fan will go at full speed.Derek

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Can't help with your Themaltakes' wiring, but I know anything over 55 C runing an AMD CPU is bad news.
(I've got the XP1700, basically the same CPU.)
Try adding a generic fan that doesn't plug into the Mobo, and just have it blow onto the heatsink.
(I've got the regular Heatsink fan, plus 2 more fans blowing onto the heatsink from opposite sides - it does do the trick, but is a bit noisy)
Try using Artic silver paste.Once again, good luck.

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I think all told there are six fans in my AMD XP2000+ rig, when I fire it up first time in the morning it pulls my hair straight out. Extra big case too. A little noisier than the "normal" system, I guess, but by golly we do not overheat. In the summer I take the side panel off both rigs (I run two rigs via a Belkin KVM) - no air conditioning either (Northern Michigan, for "air" we open the back door). The suggestion to try the board in a different slot is a good one. I've had modem boards that wouldn't work in anything but the last slot. No harm in trying at any rate.Bing

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I'm gonna try one of those spacers I've seen to even-out the pressure when the fan is clipped to the socket (that's unless any of you have heard of tragic problems using one of them!). The Volcano 7+ is a pretty heavy unit (all-copper fin base). Any opinions on reassigning one of the cards to a different IRQ?Scott

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i would try to get the sound card onto IRQ 7 as that appears to be open

"I do what my Rice Krispies tell me to do"

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The trouble with WinXP is it doesn't take kindly to assigning interrupts - since it isn't supposed to have IRQ conflicts, it does them automatically and I think it is quite possible that if the user attempts to change them, the OS might change them back. I stand to be corrected on this if someone has other info.I know this is true of Plug and Play devices: Most of them simply will not allow a manual IRQ assignment, a few do and older devices which are not "Plug and Pray" will take a manual assignment. Its still hit and miss - I have a Canon printer which cannot be turned on before I boot the system, if I try that it will refuse to run until I "install" drivers - which it already has. If I turn on the canon AFTER I boot the system, it works fine. Plug and Pray all right. Moving the card to a different slot is a possibility. I am not so sure this is the source of the problem, but trying a different slot is one way to eliminate a potential conflict. If the problem persists, it wasn't the assignments made for that slot. An outside guess is a driver or DLL conflict. WinXP has the Roll Back Driver feature, replacing the separate System Info Driver Conflict section. Worth a try, maybe.Bing

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Hey !Should it not rather be the time now for beloved Microsoft to stop considering us as playing kids, and to finally supply badly overdue FIXES for their deeply bugged software ?Will not relist all the malfunctions, the archive here is flooded therewith, from details to lethal errors, you name them.For Win98, XP, Office, IE, Outlook,... we get automatic updates . What support do we get for MSTS ???Love and Peace

OldieDaddy from Alsace

Visit also www.the-train.de !

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Oldiedaddy - You look like a youngster. Microsoft is for all practical intents and purposes a monopoly. They are a thousand pound gorilla who sleeps where he wants. Linux sounds good, but as people are finding out is not all that practical for home users - meaning us, there is a writeup on this in the current issue of PC Magazine. Bureaucracy - which exists in any corporation beyond mom and pop size, but is worse in a virtual monopoly - fueled by unlimited funds means they can make their customers pay for bad code. Like many of us I have friends who are experienced and gifted professionals in the field - they say the OS pushed out the door at Redmond is sloppy code and in the case of IE and Outlook, beyond question dangerous. What it also means is that, following standard large corporation culture, a division manager is better off telling a lie than telling the truth. MS is a huge corporation, MS can do no wrong, there is something wrong with YOU, not US. Recently, when MS decided it would start a propaganda campaign against open code, they circulated an outright fabrication they don't use it - they certainly do, as part of (I believe) their server software. Justice Dept and the federal courts attacked the wrong area of concern. Big deal, MS has to make their browser available separately or not at all. Their "punishment" in one case was giving computers free to schools, effectively eliminating Apple as a competitor wherever this will have effect. Apple has courted the school trade for years and supports them well. The courts in their ignorance of market conditions and business practices in general helped MS wipe them out selectively. Every business should be punished this way, they would love it.It is the shoddy merchandise, the lack of customer support, the lies and coverups, the fact MS doesn't HAVE to fix anything that the courst failed to address. But when you come right down to it ... a thousand pound gorilla sleeps where he wants. Figure out a way to make MS responsible - no one else has been able to do it. Bing

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from personal experience , I know that if you change the IRQ in bios , as long as it doesn't conflict ( 7 was empty ) xp will except it. fwiwtake care

"I do what my Rice Krispies tell me to do"

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Guys,I was successful in re-assigning the IRQ to 7 by turning off the 'plug-and-play' IRQ feature in the BIOS. I also realized I partially caused my own problems. This is a factory-unlocked 2200+, and I had my multiplier at 14X (whoops!). I backed it down to 13.5X, and now my cpu temp is 51-53C instead of 65C. I couldn't find anyone in my local area to tell me what a 2200+'s base speed is, so I didn't even know where to start when trying to calculate my multiplier. Now the machine is at 1802 MHz instead of 1868 MHz, and I don't think I'll even notice the difference!I want to thank all you guys for the time and help. People in most PC performance forums aren't anywhere near as friendly as you guys!! Scott

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WOOOOOOT
nice job sticking with it and not losing ( well , showing ) a temper .I am happy that it worked out for ya

"I do what my Rice Krispies tell me to do"

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Way to go. Glad you got it fixed. Turning off Plug and Pray is one approach, however I wonder what will happen when you install a new piece of equoipment. Let us know how it goes, when and if that happens. Bing

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Windderrs will still pick it up
I am incluned to believe it was the heat causing the problem

"I do what my Rice Krispies tell me to do"

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Scott go to www.amd.com or www.amdmb.com and the appropriate specs for your CPU are there... (somewhere)Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
North American Locomotive Works

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