On-line, running train sim game?

What is the possibility of someone starting a running on-line train sim, where people drive different trains along one or many routes? I understand that MS Flight Sim players can do this. There could be two way comms between different trains, people could be doing different tasks (main line freight, switching, etc). It would be cool driving trains along with many other folks, building up your train stock inventory, etc.Matt

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RE: On-line, running train sim game?, OTTODAD, Oct-31-02, 08:04 PM, (1) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, mauried, Oct-31-02, 09:56 PM, (2) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, OTTODAD, Oct-31-02, 10:11 PM, (3) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, LAHDPOP, Oct-31-02, 10:38 PM, (4) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, Motley24Crue2, Oct-31-02, 10:46 PM, (5) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, OTTODAD, Nov-01-02, 08:23 AM, (12) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, mudkow60, Nov-01-02, 10:59 AM, (21) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, troub, Nov-01-02, 01:24 PM, (22) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, OTTODAD, Nov-01-02, 05:58 PM, (27) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, IcyFire, Nov-01-02, 07:09 PM, (30) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, lfriddle, Nov-01-02, 07:35 PM, (31) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, VRfan, Oct-31-02, 11:04 PM, (7) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, Kombatant, Nov-01-02, 08:45 PM, (32) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, mudkow60, Nov-01-02, 00:14 AM, (8) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, dchagar, Nov-01-02, 10:39 AM, (20) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, OTTODAD, Nov-01-02, 05:30 PM, (24) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, trueman, Nov-02-02, 02:39 PM, (35) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, lfriddle, Oct-31-02, 10:56 PM, (6) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, mudkow60, Nov-01-02, 00:21 AM, (9) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, trainfreak2000, Nov-01-02, 00:48 AM, (10) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, KingJPW, Nov-01-02, 07:34 AM, (11) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, sd70mac666, Nov-01-02, 08:26 AM, (13) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, OTTODAD, Nov-01-02, 08:42 AM, (14) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, sd70mac666, Nov-01-02, 08:56 AM, (15) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, OTTODAD, Nov-01-02, 09:17 AM, (17) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, sd70mac666, Nov-01-02, 09:23 AM, (18) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, OTTODAD, Nov-01-02, 05:36 PM, (25) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, sd70mac666, Nov-01-02, 05:59 PM, (28) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, OTTODAD, Nov-01-02, 06:36 PM, (29) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, sd70mac666, Nov-01-02, 10:32 PM, (34) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, Stooopid_person, Nov-01-02, 10:18 AM, (19) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, OTTODAD, Nov-01-02, 05:50 PM, (26) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, Stooopid_person, Nov-01-02, 08:58 AM, (16) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, mudkow60, Nov-01-02, 09:23 PM, (33) RE: On-line, running train sim game?, ronson, Nov-01-02, 03:48 PM, (23)

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The State of the Internet being what it is at the moment "MULTI-PLAYER ONLINE" Gaming of any sort is wishfull thinking and would clog up the Web even more, bringing it to a Standstill !The only playble "ONLINE GAMES" are CHESS and GOLF ! Doesn't matter there when the next move is being made or a club is being swung ! Ever tried to VIDEO LINK with anybody ? It's a Joke !

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There are other pretty formidable problems as well.
Trains , unlike planes cant steer which means that where they go has to be somehow preordained either using scripts as is currently done in MSTS with the AE or there would need to be some sort of centralised
Dispatcher, most likley human as pure AI Train Dispatchers (that work properly) are a massive programming task and unlikley to ever appear in a low cost game.Auran (the makers of Trainz) claim that one of their future projects is to implement just this , a multi player version of a Train Sim with a human Dispatcher.
I wish them luck as its a major task.MD

MD

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I can see the Outline of such an idea in my mind, like a Telecoms "Conference Call" where various participants can share a common line, all talking at the same time if necessary ! In FS2002 or MSTS any action of any of the Players in such a SIMS "Conference Call" on the WEB would have to be relayed to all the other Players INSTANTLY for them to react and so on !I won't be alive to see that happen !

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Ottodad, are you being sarcastic? Or are you really unaware of the online multiplayer world? If you're just being sarcastic, I apologize for not "getting it." If you're serious,....
Yes, you can (and lots do) fly online with others quite easily. I routinely fly in online dogfights in "rooms" of 6-20 players. And like you're "conference call" reference, we do in fact talk back and forth to each other while flying, via voice comm utilities such as BattleComm and RogerWilco. Compared to the complexities of a swirling, 3D dogfight, the technical side of multiplayer train-simming would be pretty easy. Since you're on rails, there are far fewer options the computer would have to be ready to respond to. If us poor dial-uppers can have a huge furball of a dogfight in 3D air, while talking to each other, it would be comparatively simple to enable some multiplayer train-simming.Again, if you were being sarcastic to make a point; I missed it, sorry. v/r,
Pop
Online F6F Hellcat driver

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oh and Dont Forget Half-Life, thats Multi Player as well...
Bob
Philadelphia, Pa

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-01-02 AT 08:37 AM (EST)

No I am not being sarcastic, I am stating a fact !Perhaps some of you guys in the States are fortunate having FAST BROADBAND Internet Connections which are not over-used and can cope with ONLINE GAMING. But by hugging Nodes and Connections on the Internet doing so, you are slowing everybody else down !Alas, we over here in the U.K. are not so lucky. It can take up to 90 seconds just to link to another page on a Web Site !We are already being "Rationed" to a MAX. of 150 Online hours per Month, MAX 2 hours at any one time OFF-PEAK, shorter during PEAK Hours and soon will lose the "CONNECT FREE ANYTIME" Service to stop people being ONLINE too long !P.S. Reading all the other replys in this thread it is not surprising that the INTERNET is grinding to a HALT, having lost some of the Major Providers and can not Cope with the HUGE Workload created by PORN, SPAM, DENIAL of SERVICE ATTACKS, ONLINE GAMING, including the LAS VAGAS for MONEY TYPE, BUGBEARS, other Viruses and an ever growing volumn of E-Mail.Enjoy ONLINE GAMING for as long as you can while your Hubs, Nodes and Servers still have the Capacity to allow it !

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People play on these mass-server, multi player games from around the world (China, Greece, etc). You mean to say, that you folks 'Cross the Pond, do not have the choice of ISP that is speedy enough to handle such "new and fast forward technology?"

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I'd be willing to bet that Ottodad's problem are with his ISP, or maybe his country's infrastructure really is that bad. But with statements like he said being limited in "Connect Free Anytime" minutes or some such, well, that makes me think about his ISP. Anytime you have a "free" ISP, as NetZero and others tried to do, it goes down the drain pretty fast as they have to start putting time limits and charges on usage. You can't really expect quality from such a situation. It's possible, as is the situation in plenty of rural areas in the US, that he doesn't have much of an ISP choice. That sucks, but it'll probably get better. I pay $50 a month for my high bandwidth, so yeah, I'd better enjoy it

troub
MSTS: Illinois Central

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You are both right, guys.Where I live I am just outside the range of DSL, no CABLE, FIBRE OPTICS, just old fashioned COPPER Cable at 56K Analog Modem, transferring Data at 7 Kb p.second !There is only British Telecoms, the Main Provider and Cable Companies not making enough money are close to CHAPTER 11 as you call it in the States !

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7 kb a sec?! man, when i had dial up I only got 3k a sec! The place I was dialing to was also about 14 miles away, so you can imagine the interferece problems, I've long since ditched dial up, and quite frankly, I'd take a gun to my computer before going back
Coming Soon: 2.53GHz, 1gig DDR Ram, ATI radeon 9700, All projects stoped until I get that system Built (3~4 weeks most)

Shawn "Icy-Fire" Kenselaar
ShawnSSK@Yahoo.com

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Actually the amount of internet used by gamers and guys like us and even spammers is a very small drop in the internet bucket. The real hogs are business that use VPN's (virtual private networks) to interconnect all their locations. I know several very large corporations who laugh all the way to the bank because they are paying for a T1 or T3 line a short distance to a local ISP at each location and then the public internet provides the connection between them. They used to have to pay millions to have dedicated data lines to do this.

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And I hope you're joking with this. I play online first person shooter games (ie, Quake 3, UT, Tactical Ops, Counter-Strike) and these games are extremely sensitive to lag. I'm on cable and I get LAN type pings to the local Australian servers.--Victorian Railfan Web Site:
http://www.railpage.org.au/vr/

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Yeh online-gaming is huge...With games like the half-life mods etc you get excellent pings if you play on a server in your area of the world. For the hell of it I even play on American west coast servers sometimes (from Aus) and even then the ping is not too bad - and thats for action games where reaction times etc are critical> for train-simming this is less important and because of this I believe online train-simming would not be that difficult to implement.

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I also can not tell if you are serious or not. My brother plays on line games (via a cable internet connection) with over 500 people from around the world. The graphics and of the games he plays rivals or exceeds those of the Train Sim, and there are multiple worlds that people play in at the same time. So your argument of the server not being capable of handeling such a game in invalid.M

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Otto,
There's a certain advantage to living here in the colonies, such as the USA. I just downloaded your tracks.zip. It took exactly 37 seconds on a cable modem. Jealous?

Dave

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You bet I am JEALOUS, DCHAGAR !!!There are times when I think it might not be such a bad idea to move somewhere where there is CABLE !!!USA Colonies ? You must be joking ! In my opinion, never mind "humble", it has been the USA without which the world as we know it today would not have survived since the First World War !And don't anybody forget it !!!

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>... it has been the USA without which the world
>as we know it today would not have survived since the First
>World War ! Now I know that you are joking.

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Well, I guess I'll be the odd man out for a change. I don't beleive it would be difficult at all provided the sim takes place within proper restraints.
1. All players would have to be using the same route, no modifications allowed. (of course you could log on to various routes)
2. Everybody would have to use the same set of train equipment, no custom cars or engines that the other players might not have.
3. A central internet control server (to which players would probably have to subscribe to in order to log on)Each engineer that logged on would be given a job by a dispatcher. Once a newly logged on engineer's pc registers the consist with the server, his PC only has to periodicaly send its vital signs (location on the route, control settings, ect.)The server broadcasts this information out to all the logged on computers. Each persons own computer updates the simulation it is running with the information concerning the other players trains and adjusts the simulation to keep everything where it should be. Real time isn't even all that critical (Player A won't know that player B's train that is passing him actually whistled a half second ago on player B's end, it's only important that Player A hear the whistle at the same place on the track that player B pulled the cord).
Sent as binary data, the required information would need less than a thousand bytes. Since the local PC keeps the sim going between data updates internet latancy up to several seconds would be no problem. Unless the other players train is actually in sight, nothing is really going on. It's just like AI traffic, except the AI is a person on the other end.
There are already several internet games out there that work this way. Some of the guys I work with play a real time internet game where players join one of two military teams and they fight a war with each other in real time, complete with blowing the other guys brains out. Then they have a "time out" before he can get back in the game. If that can be done, a train sim would be gravy.Larry
Ozark Mountain Software

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I fully agree. As I stated in an earlier reply, my bro plays very complex games on line with over 500 people world wide. As per AI and player interaction, on the games he plays (I assume that some of the ones you mentioned are the same), the players actually see other participants movements, and can type real time. Is there enough intreast in this community to warrant someone(s) to make such a game? I would gladly pay money to hop on board. It would spice up and liven up the game.M

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RuneScape is online and i dont lag at all. Runescape also dosnt require you to buy anything (unless you want members) You can play for free.Owen
For more info goto http://www.runescape.com/runescape.html

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I have made a game called 'Yard Duty' that is sort of like what you are thinking. You may enjoy it. Follow the link below.KingJPW

Yard Duty, The National Freight Yard Simulation - http://groups.msn.com/YardDuty

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-01-02 AT 08:28 AM (EST)

whoever said that running online games is an idiot. I play WarCraft III and heroes of might and Magic IV on the Internet all the time and it doesn't clog up or slow down. Before I finished it I played Diablo and Diablo II all the time killing and looting people. Oh yeah I should also say that an online train sim game would be good, hook up some people play engineer yardmaster whatever and fly. Real time dispatching is good too

Hey do you love me like a beautiful thing yeah
Get into the god All american Dream
Demon Speeding: Rob Zombie
The vision comes and goes
but tonight I saw very clearly
Transylvania Transmissions Pt.1 Rob Zombie

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Watch you Language Sunshine, you haven't been in this FORUM long enough to be forgiven using it !Next time you say IDIOT to anybody I shall ALERT the Administrators !

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-01-02 AT 09:00 AM (EST)

Okay I apologize if I offended anyone especially Ottodad. but I have youth on my side being only 24 years old. i used to play all sorts of games online before age finally caught up with me and my job. I like the Sunshine part though. that and I came off a 3 week illness. It's fun downloading MP3's and doing the Train sim all the time and the wife yelling at me, but, that's life. have to work for a living. But anyways I apologize to Ottodad and anyone else I offended. But I really think that online capabilities for the Train-sim would be beneficial. Real railroads can use it too. You need to expoilt the full potential of the internet and online gaming is one of those factors. Same thing with a group of friends. Gather them up all together online and fire up the train sim. But then again everyone would have to use default or have the same consists which would be a pain in the ass. No wait I take that back, a pain in the butt. But an online componet to the Train simulator as I said would be beneficial. I'd probably never leave home. I can see it now the 666 kid is on the train sim, even on a death bed playing the train sim. Now that's something. Maybe I should watch more MTV and Jerry Springer. oh another thing lag would have to be an issue. I know some of you are using dial up which is not a problem but mayber I should start a poll on what connection methods you all use. Myself I'm on cable, I was born and raised in Ontario, and I had a cable modem in 1997. Problem is it would keep shorting out. SO I mived down here in late 1999 and was on dial up until a year and a half ago. So Watch the foums sometime today or over the weekend and I'll poll people. this way you'll all get an understanding on why and why not an online component of the Train Simulator would or would not be beneficial

Hey do you love me like a beautiful thing yeah
Get into the god All american Dream
Demon Speeding: Rob Zombie
The vision comes and goes
but tonight I saw very clearly
Transylvania Transmissions Pt.1 Rob Zombie

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No Problem, Mike !I have a Son, now 38, who was just like all you other guys, growing up with Computing and the first "Shoot them down" games in Pubs ! Had to drag him away from them and others in Amusement Arcades sometimes ! He is now a "Destinguished" Software Engineer with NOVELL, holder of 4 Patents for them.I sometimes get annoyed with Film Makers watching their Films showing people in the States having Instant Visual Online Contact with each other, no Time Lag, voices sounding after mouths have moved ! Reality here in the U.K. is far removed from that ! Sometimes you have to DIAL a number of times to get an ONLINE slot in the first place ! Anyway, like I said before, I hope I will be around still after the WEB gets better again or is being replaced by a different technology altogether, being talked anbout now because the present one is no good for serious Business Use.

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Yeah but don't they bone you up the well you know what I'm getting at, for charges? Oh participate in the poll
lol
Was this when he was growing up? I was like that too until age, life and a job caught up with me. I agree the present web is not good for business use.it's snowing here. Like I need something else to worry about.

Hey do you love me like a beautiful thing yeah
Get into the god All american Dream
Demon Speeding: Rob Zombie
The vision comes and goes
but tonight I saw very clearly
Transylvania Transmissions Pt.1 Rob Zombie

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-01-02 AT 05:43 PM (EST)

Snowing ? Get your leg muscles into shape if you are planning to do some skiing ! P.S. Yes, my Son was about 18 then, starting University. Now he is a DAD himself, NOVELL, etc, not enough time at home to go ONLINE for some Fun !But everytime we take the Grandchildren somewhere where there are Gaming Consoles, guess what he does first !

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I like snowboarding myself here in Vermont, we have mountains so might go to the mountains to go snowboarding or something. Give me something worthwhile. I bet he goes for the consoles, I had a Playstation when I lived in Canada

Hey do you love me like a beautiful thing yeah
Get into the god All american Dream
Demon Speeding: Rob Zombie
The vision comes and goes
but tonight I saw very clearly
Transylvania Transmissions Pt.1 Rob Zombie

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My Son Robert living in the Salt Lake City, Utah, area is a keen Skier himself.Last year, before the Winter Olympics started, he went skiing for the first time and hurt his knees. My Daughter, when she lived in Scotland, was a Skier too but is now a keen SnowBoarder herself.Whishing you a good layer of POWDER SNOW ! (I am an "old" Austrian Skier)

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What's Powdered snow? I can't even go off the handrails on my deck.
Just a dusting that's it. The weather is crappy but getting colder which is good, gives me a chance to wax up my board. I use Rossignol boards just to let you know

Hey do you love me like a beautiful thing yeah
Get into the god All american Dream
Demon Speeding: Rob Zombie
The vision comes and goes
but tonight I saw very clearly
Transylvania Transmissions Pt.1 Rob Zombie

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>Next time you say IDIOT to anybody I shall ALERT the
>Administrators !Okay
Next time you say = Stooopid_person
Stooopid_person is and IDIOT.
Opps, I said idiot to somebody!-------------My favourite LUL train-------------

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No Phil, you are a lovable exception ! Just don't try too hard to live up to your "Handle" !

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What about a combined FS and TS game? Where you can see aeroplanes above when you derive trains and vice-versa? And thern there is a train station next to the airport where you can see planes land when driving trains or trains coming as you land? -------------My favourite LUL train-------------

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That would be cool. When I installed the Flight Sim 2002, it came with a pop-up WWII flying game. I played it for a bit, and there is even a part when you can strafe a German train (You can fly German planes as well, and maybe you can hit British trains). But, alas, the little pop-up game is not that good, and I deleated it. But MSTS and FS2K2 would be a fun combo. I have buzzed trains in many Pipers in real life. It would be fun to do it in the virtural world.

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-01-02 AT 03:58 PM (EST)

Train Operation Interaction...Real crews hardly see each other unless passing on siding, twin track or in change offs. It's a pretty lonely job. Sure there is the interaction with RTC and the odd work crew. Trains do effect each other in there movement but that is handled by RTC unlike in an aircraft were you have to get out of the way or avoid weather. That is crews don't work with each other directly. It would be cool to know that a crew was operating that train waiting on a siding for you to blast past but not that hard to simulate (if the AI trains operated like they should). The more important aspects of the job. Being called at all times of the day or night to do a run or work a job weather not with standing (accept for the extreme). In order to do this right you would need a dispatch (RTC). I disagree with the notion of special equipment or routes.Before computers dispatch was done with a pen and paper and the map was printed on a wall. So there isn't a special need for this persay. I think it could be done now with an ICQ account and map. Perhaps even the wave between crews could happen this way aswell. You just wouldn't be able to see the other crew/train without the dynamic transmition of position. The positions were given by radio or in the days before by telegraph. This could also happen on ICQ. As it stands now there is no way for the information to get out of the sim. An add on would be needed to get that information and transmit it. MS made it possible for two planes to fly in each others space with a null modem (before the net was established as it is now). This is what would be required for this to have a chance in the train sim aswell. I think the fact that the TrainSim doesn't run within a window at this point is a big drawback to this...You can't get out with out ending your activity in order to get it to the point were you could send com'sMy question would be on a line like Marias Pass what would be the maximum amount of traffic you could have on it at one time and then what is the amount of traffic it does have currently (The actual route)???On the outside it seems like this could solve a lot of problems with the sim and add interactivty that is in the real world but not simulated so well. However it would add a great deal of complication to the currently very complex sim. Perhaps done the road when the rest of the stuff has been fixed to the point that making routes and activitys is just not that time consuming. If the stuff in those pieces of software where automated some what.FS2002 - automated Traffic control
FS2002 - automated Weather Generation
FS2002 - automated Flight Plan Filing
FS2002 - automated Traffic GenerationWith these operation automated the operator is free to generate the things that are important and in the future more easily control those things that have been automated...Ronson

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