EULAs and ABANDONWARE - Yo, Chucky!

I know Chuck Schneider is gonna have two cents worth on this, so might as well get him in here now. The bottles need washed anyway, so wake up, Chuck!Repainters Notes
**************This model was not designed to be easy to re-paint. Successful re-painting would require access to the source layered files. These will not be available. As a result: You may only re-paint this locomotive for your own personal use. You may NOT upload re-paints to any public forum Or file area or distribute them via any means of electronic or non electronic medium. You may NOT produce and distribute in any way a screenshot containing a re-painted locomotive. If you require specific versions of this model or wish to re-paint them for public distribution you must contact me first, and I will then consider either producing such a variant or distributing on your behalf, a re-painted version done by yourself. But distribution and copyrights remain with me at all times. Please contact me if you do wish to repaint the locomotive for public use. FozzyUK@Hotmail.com To me, for commercial addons copyrights and EULAs are understandable and necessary, for freeware they seem just plain silly. "Please contact me if you do wish to repaint the locomotive for public use", I did, then he disappeared off the planet. Maybe I scared him off, he didn't like the way I was repainting what he called "Old Rusty".Anyway it's been two years since anyone has heard anything from Fozzy, IMAO situations like that these things should be declared "abandonware" and therefore public domain.All opinions welcome, even from you suffering sensitive artiste types who can't stand to see people hacking on your masterpieces. BTW, 1305 is Chicago Police code, "Criminal Damage to Property".

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RE: EULAs and ABANDONWARE - Yo, Chucky!, ATF1224, Jul-23-04, 11:39 PM, (1) RE: EULAs and ABANDONWARE - Yo, Chucky!, tryagin, Jul-24-04, 01:35 AM, (2) RE: EULAs and ABANDONWARE - Yo, Chucky!, chucksc, Jul-24-04, 07:17 AM, (3) RE: EULAs and ABANDONWARE - Yo, Chucky!, chucksc, Jul-24-04, 09:42 AM, (4) RE: EULAs and ABANDONWARE - Yo, Chucky!, riograndedude, Jul-24-04, 11:31 AM, (5) RE: EULAs and ABANDONWARE - Yo, Chucky!, riograndedude, Jul-24-04, 03:26 PM, (9) RE: EULAs and ABANDONWARE - Yo, Chucky!, sniper297, Jul-24-04, 12:17 PM, (6) RE: EULAs and ABANDONWARE - Yo, Chucky!, Hack, Jul-24-04, 12:54 PM, (7) RE: EULAs and ABANDONWARE - Yo, Chucky!, BNSFLADY, Jul-24-04, 02:18 PM, (8) RE: EULAs and ABANDONWARE - Yo, Chucky!, Paul1953, Jul-24-04, 05:51 PM, (10) Yes, you are the only 1 who loves BNSF Great Pumpkin 38, sniper297, Jul-24-04, 06:59 PM, (11) RE: Yes, you are the only 1 who loves BNSF Great Pumpki, chucksc, Jul-24-04, 07:36 PM, (12) RE: Yes, you are the only 1 who loves BNSF Great Pumpki, pwillard, Jul-24-04, 08:14 PM, (13) RE: Yes, you are the only 1 who loves BNSF Great Pumpki, ASR_Q301, Jul-24-04, 08:56 PM, (14) RE: Yes, you are the only 1 who loves BNSF Great Pumpki, sniper297, Jul-24-04, 09:23 PM, (16) RE: Yes, you are the only 1 who loves BNSF Great Pumpki, chucksc, Jul-25-04, 07:31 AM, (17) RE: Yes, you are the only 1 who loves BNSF Great Pumpki, Paul1953, Jul-24-04, 09:18 PM, (15) RE: Yes, you are the only 1 who loves BNSF Great Pumpki, pwillard, Jul-25-04, 10:51 AM, (18) Who keep stealing the end of the subject line?!, sniper297, Jul-25-04, 01:35 PM, (19) RE: Who keep stealing the end of the subject line?!, chucksc, Jul-25-04, 02:50 PM, (20) RE: Who keep stealing the end of the subject line?!, sniper297, Jul-25-04, 04:05 PM, (21) RE: Who keep stealing the end of the subject line?!, Hawk, Jul-25-04, 05:41 PM, (22) RE: Who keep stealing the end of the subject line?!, DRGWK36, Jul-25-04, 06:51 PM, (23) RE: Who keep stealing the end of the subject line?!, Vulcan Foundry, Jul-25-04, 07:31 PM, (24) RE: Who keep stealing the end of the subject line?!, chucksc, Jul-26-04, 08:27 AM, (27) RE: Who keep stealing the end of the subject line?!, Boweavel, Jul-26-04, 01:06 PM, (29) RE: Yes, you are the only 1 who loves BNSF Great Pumpki, Hack, Jul-26-04, 01:05 AM, (25) RE: Yes, you are the only 1 who loves BNSF Great Pumpki, chucksc, Jul-26-04, 08:20 AM, (26) RE: Yes, you are the only 1 who loves BNSF Great Pumpki, Wardo 711, Jul-26-04, 11:43 AM, (28) RE: Yes, you are the only 1 who loves BNSF Great Pumpki, sniper297, Jul-26-04, 02:19 PM, (31) RE: Yes, you are the only 1 who loves BNSF Great Pumpki, sinclair97, Jul-26-04, 05:00 PM, (32) RE: Yes, you are the only 1 who loves BNSF Great Pumpki, SAVV, Jul-27-04, 02:43 AM, (33) RE: Yes, you are the only 1 who loves BNSF Great Pumpki, jdtrainman, Aug-01-04, 07:04 PM, (52) RE: EULAs and ABANDONWARE - Yo, Chucky!, stationmaster, Jul-26-04, 01:56 PM, (30) RE: EULAs and ABANDONWARE - Yo, Chucky!, chucksc, Jul-27-04, 09:49 AM, (34) RE: EULAs and ABANDONWARE - Yo, Chucky!, tchouftchouf, Jul-27-04, 12:02 PM, (35) Union Pacific is the AntiChrist!!!, sniper297, Jul-27-04, 12:44 PM, (36) RE: Union Pacific is the AntiChrist!!!, chucksc, Jul-28-04, 12:36 PM, (40) RE: Union Pacific is the AntiChrist!!!, chucksc, Aug-01-04, 12:34 PM, (50) RE: EULAs and ABANDONWARE - Yo, Chucky!, stationmaster, Jul-27-04, 01:11 PM, (37) RE: EULAs and ABANDONWARE - Yo, Chucky!, sinclair97, Jul-27-04, 02:05 PM, (38) RE: EULAs and ABANDONWARE - Yo, Chucky!, Boweavel, Jul-27-04, 02:18 PM, (39) RE: EULAs and ABANDONWARE - Yo, Chucky!, sniper297, Jul-28-04, 06:08 PM, (41) RE: EULAs and ABANDONWARE - Yo, Chucky!, chucksc, Jul-28-04, 08:13 PM, (42) RE: EULAs and ABANDONWARE - Yo, Chucky!, sniper297, Jul-28-04, 10:01 PM, (43) RE: EULAs and ABANDONWARE - Yo, Chucky!, Wardo 711, Jul-30-04, 03:19 AM, (44) RE: EULAs and ABANDONWARE - Yo, Chucky!, Boweavel, Jul-30-04, 05:33 AM, (45) RE: EULAs and ABANDONWARE - Yo, Chucky!, BlakeTyner, Jul-30-04, 06:36 PM, (47) RE: EULAs and ABANDONWARE - Yo, Chucky!, CGW409, Jul-30-04, 06:13 PM, (46) I feel this thread sinking..., sniper297, Jul-30-04, 07:51 PM, (48) RE: I feel this thread sinking..., CGW409, Jul-30-04, 11:28 PM, (49) Silversides, geekman, Aug-01-04, 04:38 PM, (51) Glub, glub!, sniper297, Aug-01-04, 08:51 PM, (53) RE: Glub, glub!, geekman, Aug-02-04, 06:56 AM, (54) RE: Glub, glub!, Adam3291, Aug-02-04, 09:01 AM, (55) Speak of the devil!, sniper297, Aug-04-04, 01:14 PM, (58) RE: Speak of the devil!, chucksc, Aug-04-04, 04:44 PM, (59) RE: Funny flags, sinclair97, Aug-04-04, 05:36 PM, (60) RE: Funny flags, chucksc, Aug-04-04, 09:21 PM, (61) Nag, nag, nag..., sniper297, Aug-04-04, 10:19 PM, (62) RE: Glub, glub!, stationmaster, Aug-07-04, 11:40 PM, (63) RE: Glub, glub!, chucksc, Aug-08-04, 12:53 PM, (65) RE: Glub, glub!, chucksc, Aug-02-04, 10:06 AM, (56) RE: Glub, glub!, Magick_maker, Aug-04-04, 00:11 AM, (57) RE: Glub, glub!, Hawk, Aug-08-04, 09:14 AM, (64) RE: EULAs and ABANDONWARE - Yo, Chucky!, Brad 110, Aug-10-04, 05:17 PM, (66)

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He'll get over it.Looks nice Jim, and I'm not normally one to comment on Narrow Gauge stuff

Jake Mensel

The Norfolk Southern Winston-Salem District

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Nice repaint Jim. Looks like you got through those source layers OK.In a related story, 2 years ago Fozzy had promoted a screenshot contest to "show off" his then-new K-36. The grand prize was supposed to be a DVD on railoads, and the second prize was to be reprints of the original plans of the engine. I won that grand prize those two years ago, and have yet to recieve it. I believe the gentleman that won second prize has also yet to recieve his prize. I really didn't care about the prize,( because I didn't even have a DVD player at that time.) But I did have an issue with Fozzie, who on two occasions -via email inquiries, promised to "look into it". But nothing ever became of it, only his curses at the ineptitude of the Royal mail. Oh well. K-sara sara.Tim

Street and Interurban Electric Railway Models
Sumpter Valley B&B Gang
Willamette Valley Route
(No timetable for release)
Turn Off your TVs.

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I'm on my way out the door with the Grand Kritters Jim, so I'll yak at you later... Basically/legally you cannot... Practically it is a matter of whether or not Fozzy will take action against you... You rolls the dice and sees!Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-24-04 AT 09:44 AM (EST)

BTW, Jim I forgot to tell you that is a beautiful reskin-weather job....
And the question to you is do you respect Julian/Fozzy's clearly expressed wishes or not?
If you remember your history when he did this we had an artiste or two on here who positively delighted in reskinning models in the most horrid way just to PO the modeler.... Do you remember the Tie Dyed Acela or the WWF Train???????

Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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I was the guy who won the 2nd place, and yes, I am still waiteing on those blueprints.
He's been gone for a long time and has left no one to use his model, it's in limbo, is'nt time for some one to do somethign about that?
So Can I post a screenshot of D&SNG 481?Copper Basin Railway Tracklayer
Track: 90% Complete
Scenery: Far From it.

MR SPARKLE!!!

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Sorry about that, I forgot, I didnt win second place, but Fozzy was gonna send me a copy of those diagrams, and right after that he disapeerd.
Copper Basin Railway Tracklayer
Track: 90% Complete
Scenery: Far From it.

MR SPARKLE!!!

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-24-04 AT 12:21 PM (EST)

"Looks like you got through those source layers OK", I really don't have a clue what he was talking about, an ace file is an ace file and can be opened with TGAtool2 and sent to an editor. And yeah I remember the screenshot contest, this repaint was entered into the screenshot contest, since I repainted it in PO&N livery just to bust his chops about that "no posting screenshots of repaints" nonsense. That's where we get into the personalities, just because I disagree with someone doesn't mean I don't like the guy, Fozzy took the jab with good humor (sorry, "humour", him being a Brit), and sent an email asking if I wanted to upload the repaint, which is where it started. It ended when he went to look for a job or something, possibly he's still looking for one on Pluto."And the question to you is do you respect Julian/Fozzy's clearly expressed wishes or not?"Obviously I did sort of, since I never uploaded this reject from a rustoleum research lab, I still don't agree with the concept. To me the whole point of freeware is sharing and trading, attaching strings to it is just plain silly. Again this is not about personalities, one of my best friends is a freeware route developer who keeps every new idea and discovery to himself so that he can be the first to upload a route with it, I always tell him if you're looking for glory learn to dance on a stage while smashing a guitar. And then there's Chucky, who also has a policy of no repaints without permission, but we're still friends despite the fact that I disagree with his position. And Chuck also don't hold against me all the times I dropped a mark 46 down his periscope from my ASW helicopter! Adults can have arguments and disagreements without squabbling, the point of all this is I LIKED Fozzy in spite of his wierd attitudes. Will Rogers I ain't tho, I never did like Svante Wendel, worst example of suffering sensitive artiste in the freeware world. "If you remember your history when he did this we had an artiste or two on here who positively delighted in reskinning models in the most horrid way just to PO the modeler.... Do you remember the Tie Dyed Acela or the WWF Train???????"Yeah, that's my point, if I upload this and someone else repaints my artwork with purple and orange stripes and uploads that, so what? I still have my version even if I don't like his, and other people have a choice of either version, or both if they want. If you're so goddamned sensitive about your creation, keep the blasted thing to yourself and don't share it with anyone, is my position. If I was making cash money from it that would be different, you want to upload a paisley tie-died version of the PO&N we gotta negotiate what my cut is gonna be first. If I'm worried about my "reputation" being damaged by a sloppy ugly abortion based on my previous work, thus hurting sales later on, then it would be a substantial extortion to compensate for the anticipated loss. But EULAs for freeware are just plain stupid, IMAO. I just got yet another email this morning asking me for permission to use my weeds in a route, think I'm gonna send him back a "what part of this didn't you understand", from the readme.txt:This software is public domain, use, abuse, modify, redistribute, fold, spindle, and mutilate. As is, no guarantees, Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here.BTW, Tim, just for the helluvit I looked for the threads:http://www.train-sim.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=12615&forum=DCForumID3&viewmode=allhttp://www.train-sim.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=13109&forum=DCForumID3

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>To me the whole point of freeware is sharing and tradingNew Term: ConditionwareCheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.comPro Series SuperPacks

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Jim:
Do you have a Cray by chance? Seems like you have every post cataloged, cross indexed, cross referenced, and at your fingertips.
My 2 cents on the subject; If someone creates a model and distributes it has freeware, then his or HER wishes should be respected, no matter how outrageous they might be. However if the person does not respond in any way to e-mails or posts, or other means of contact, then I would consider the model to be abandoned. I think a period of 12 to 18 months with no response would be adequate.
Cyndi (-Rella)

Am I the only 1 who loves BNSF Great Pumpkin 38s?

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I like the idea of "Abandonware", even if , as a concept, it might be adopted with a different name. As an activity writer, it can be frustrating at times , not to be able to contact the original author(s) of a piece, you'd like to use in an activity, slated for release. Yes,I am aware, that for the most part, a credit in the readme is more than enough. But I try to contact the authors out of courtesy. Especially if there might be slight alterations involved, like including AI eng files or unloaded/loaded wag files as part of the package. There is a great many pieces of stock available, where the original authors seem to have dropped off the face of the planet years ago. Is it at all possible, that a term limit could be set, after which items " abandoned", might be considered public domain? Better yet , could someone in the TS fold be appointed trustee for these files, and be the one we could apply to, when neccessary?
Paul Watson
Activity Development
Public Relations

I hear my train a comin'--Jimi Hendrix

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Hee-hee, well, I got DSL, and searching even the archives don't take all that long. Sometimes you just can't find one you remember because it was lost in one of the server crashes (we've had a few of those over 3 years), but most times the "and" button turns up what I'm looking for. Small sampling of "sniper297" AND "fozzy" search results:http://www.train-sim.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=12650&forum=DCForumID3http://www.train-sim.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=12701&forum=DCForumID3http://www.train-sim.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=12728&forum=DCForumID3http://www.train-sim.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=19990&forum=DCForumID3
In that last one Chuck's opinion was 6 months isn't long enough, what say you now, Chuck? That one was almost a year after I sent him the last version of the ace files.Marc, glad to see your two cents in this, for you EULA's and licenses make sense since you're selling, not giving away. Your lawyer does tend to be somewhat overcautious sometimes tho:
IN ADDITION, IN NO EVENT DOES 3DTRAINS AUTHORIZE YOU TO USE THIS SOFTWARE IN APPLICATIONS OR SYSTEMS WHERE THIS SOFTWARE'S FAILURE TO PERFORM CAN REASONABLY BE EXPECTED TO RESULT IN A SIGNIFICANT PHYSICAL INJURY, OR IN LOSS OF LIFE. ANY SUCH USE BY YOU IS ENTIRELY AT YOUR OWN RISK, AND YOU AGREE TO HOLD 3DTRAINS HARMLESS FROM ANY CLAIMS OR LOSSES RELATING TO SUCH UNAUTHORIZED USE.Hmmm, I was just about to take an F9 .eng file and use it to control life support, fire alarm and supression, and elevator hoist motors in a hospital, good thing I read that section first!

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-24-04 AT 07:41 PM (EST)

OK Jim it's bottle washing time! It doesn't matter if it's Freeware, payware or underware!
(I can't wait for the cartoon on this one! LOL!)It is still covered under the intellectual property laws...
The concept of abandoning intellectual property is a valid legal concept that has a solid legal definition that has been tested in court many times....I don't believe that 2 years constitutes abandonment.... No matter how much you and the other guys on here want it to...Now having said that, what are the chances of Fozzy persuing you for "intellectual piracy" ?????? It's Gut check time Sniper!While meanies like us would probably persue the matter and, under advice of counsel, are pretty agressive in defending our intellectual property in order to avoid any appearance of abandonment..... Like you observed Julian is in the wind! And all you have to worry about is that fugly guy staring back at you in the mirror when you shave! Just my $.02 !BTW. Marc I'll buy the term Conditionware although we prefer Limited Distribution Freeware!Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-24-04 AT 08:23 PM (EST)

It doesn't matter if it's Freeware, payware or underware!
(I can't wait for the cartoon on this one! LOL!)Someone say Cartoon?What Chu Talkin' bout?
I hope I don't offend the nice folk here... (NOTE: This link won't last forever)
Pete Willard

http://www.trainsimstuff.com

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LMAO Pete!!Thats great!! >Mike Forster<
Perth, Western Australiapacificnational_nr103@hotmail.com
http://www.trainweb.org/aussiepix

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You can't offend nice folk, Pete, only self righteous humorless prigs, which by definition are not nice folk. "Now having said that, what are the chances of Fozzy persuing you for "intellectual piracy" ?????? It's Gut check time Sniper!"Aye aye, sir, I got mine! This isn't for me really anyway, I'm not that interested in the K-36, and don't really care if I upload or not. I think I'm going to anyway, but in this situation no gut check is needed:Having that and a bunch of other stuff like it, I could seriously muddle up any court case anyway by showing that his intent was to upload this reskin. True, he possibly wanted to upload himself rather then having me upload it, god knows why, but since he didn't, if I do, they would have a hard time proving any kind of bad faith on my part.This whole discussion isn't really about me and the K-36, for all intents and purposes I DO have permission to upload this particular reskin, what I brought all this up for was guys like Will who have what is probably some great artwork that the rest of us will never possess. And it isn't just the K-36, other models from other sources have the same kind of problem. And merely because of some anal retentive need to control, when there's no money involved there's no other reason than ostentatious self importance for putting any kind of restriction on freeware. I don't even require that you list me in the credits for my stuff, altho people usually do anyway. Like I said before, if I was looking for worship and adoration I woulda been a rock star, so I could get worship and adoration from millions of nubile young females instead of a bunch of crusty old farts playing with trains. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me free freeware, anything with conditions attached is gonna go into the scuppers since dealing with this kind of nonsense is ludicrous. It's a hobby, not a goddamn religion.

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Excellent Pete that is exactly what I had in mind!
ROFLMFAO!Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-24-04 AT 09:20 PM (EST)

All the levity aside ( good one, Pete!! ), the issue remains. How to deal with the absence of owners of their intellectual property. Mr Schneider is correct.Legal precedent does exist and presents a conundrum in this regard.For example, if you wanted to do something with the F7 sets done by Ken Boudreaux, how would you proceed? He has been gone over two years, and there's no way to contact him at this time. Same with some others having left the scene over the past 3 years. I know that it would be unfair to assume that they might be gone forever,its always possible they could come back. But its also equally possible,that they might not. Surely there must be some mechanism we could utilize that would solve this, without being the least bit unfair to those authors, should they ever surface again and claim their rights.Any ideas? Paul Watson
Activity Development
Public Relations

I hear my train a comin'--Jimi Hendrix

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-25-04 AT 10:56 AM (EST)

Well, I may joke, but like nearly everyone else I *do* care.It's about reputation.I you give it away for free, your "only" reward is your reputation. The way a "sharing" person maintains and sets the groundwork for the reputation they desire is though their README file. If you don't care about your reputation and you give stuff away, you write minimalist readme's and spend as little time as possible on what you share.If you sell it for cash, you get your sales through your "reputation".And as mom always said... remember to always wear clean underwear lest you get a reputation when you visit the hospital unexpectedly.
As has been said before... it's not about quantity... it's about quality.Fozzy's K36 is one of his ONLY releases, yet after 2 years it's still loved and admired... Now that's reputation! I'm sure he wants to keep it, regardless of being reachable or not.
Pete Willard

http://www.trainsimstuff.com

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Well, I dunno, I went to a different school, but my thinking is attaching strings to freeware isn't gonna get you a DESIRABLE reputation.
EULA: Here is my masterpiece, you must hang this on a clean wall using a braided wire hangar on a round head polished #8 woodscrew, and check for exact level and plumb. Admire hourly while thinking about what amazing talent I have, and dust daily with a genuine feather duster, no plastic imitations and PLEASE no vaccuum cleaners. No smoking is allowed in any house in which this picture is displayed.The only "reputation" I would get from that would be "dweeb, dork, weenie". People would throw the damn thing in the trash for fear I might cut off my ear and mail it to them.That's what really puzzles me about you, Chuck, you don't strike me as a geek (altho your sanity, like anyone else who would voluntarily serve on a ship that deliberately sinks, is questionable), what do you care about what people do with your stuff after you give it away? Somebody uploads a crappy reskin that happens to be attached to a NALW loco, in what way does that damage the reputation of NALW? Anyone who would think "this is cruddy, must be NALW's fault" is a complete idiot, I personally don't really care about the opinions of complete idiots.

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Nice try Jim but you are not going to provoke a flame war this weekend!You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine!Go provoke someone else this weekend! LOL!Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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Okay, how about tomorrow? Seriously, you're the last guy I'd get into a flamewar with, weekend or Monday, I'm just trying to understand the reasoning. Paul is right, we're missing out on a lot of things because somebody put a restriction on something so that you can't alter it, with no valid reason I can figure, then vanished. The vanishing part is no problem, when you make freeware it's a hobby, so you're not obligated to stick around to provide long term support. And most people have no way of knowing if they're going to be around to grant or deny permission for alterations, life is short and full of surprises. So it really don't make any sense to me.

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-25-04 AT 05:43 PM (EST)

Food for thought Jim.
Thank you! Edit 1: On second thought, Thank you all.

Hawk

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I agree that it doesn't make sense, but then I tend to feel that way about a lot of things.I agree that Fozzy's restrictions are a bit much for a piece of freeware, particularly when he's clearly abandoned the group. However, I think the right thing to do is to continue to honor his restrictions. Yeah, we're missing out on a lot of things, but in this instance, it's not anything that's crucial to the survival of any person, the American Way of Life, this hobby, or much else. I've actually been quite impressed by the fact that the community has continued to hold to Fozzy's wishes not even to post a repaint screenshot (which I think is over the top). Maybe that's because it's a piece of narrow gauge equipment and doesn't have the following that other segments of the hobby have. But nevertheless, as a group I think we've done the right thing, and I hope we can continue to do the right thing.Andy

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Last I knew, Fozzy was hanging around on the forum link below.
http://groups.msn.com/TheDalekBuildersGuildHe is registered there under Fozzy and all his profile says is that his first name is Julian. Its been some time since I've been a member so I'm not sure if he's still there or not.

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-26-04 AT 08:28 AM (EST)

>Okay, how about tomorrow?
>
>Seriously, you're the last guy I'd get into a flamewar with,
>weekend or Monday, I'm just trying to understand the
>reasoning. Paul is right, we're missing out on a lot of
>things because somebody put a restriction on something so
>that you can't alter it, with no valid reason I can figure,
>then vanished. The vanishing part is no problem, when you
>make freeware it's a hobby, so you're not obligated to stick
>around to provide long term support. And most people have no
>way of knowing if they're going to be around to grant or
>deny permission for alterations, life is short and full of
>surprises. So it really don't make any sense to me. What you're getting mellow in your old age?
Damn Airdales start a good fight and then run!Actually after a weekend with 2 of the GrandKritters I'm mentally and physically drained.... And I thought you lived for our "intellectual discussions" ?The bottom line as I see it is that although it is inconvenient to you the copyright rules apply if Julian cares to enforce them... Legally he hasn't abandoned anything, yet!
The question is what will you do? Will you take a chance that Fozzy won't enforce them or if he does you can fuzz him up???? Or will you and the dragon slink off to your cave grumbling and fuming???P.S. It looks like one of the other guyz has a possible contact point for Foz. I'd explore that avenue if your true intent is to get permission to release your repainting. As opposed to merely "stirring the pot"? P.P.S. But you can keep stirring the pot as it tends to wake everyone up!Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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>Well, I dunno, I went to a different school, but my thinking
>is attaching strings to freeware isn't gonna get you a
>DESIRABLE reputation.
>(SNIP)
>EULA: Here is my masterpiece, you must hang this on a clean
>wall using a braided wire hangar on a round head polished #8
>woodscrew, and check for exact level and plumb. Admire
>hourly while thinking about what amazing talent I have, and
>dust daily with a genuine feather duster, no plastic
>imitations and PLEASE no vaccuum cleaners. No smoking is
>allowed in any house in which this picture is displayed.
Sorry I couldnt resist the challange Looks nice.. I look forward to more of your work, They sell well down the local markets Catchya

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-26-04 AT 01:06 AM (EST)

>Your lawyer does tend to be somewhat overcautious sometimes tho: I dunno - considering some of the knuckleheads and their lawyers, you can never be too careful these days! Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.comPro Series SuperPacks

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>>Your lawyer does tend to be somewhat overcautious sometimes tho:
>
>I dunno - considering some of the knuckleheads and
>their lawyers, you can never be too careful these
>days! I'll 2nd that sentiment!Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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Jim's always been a blabbermouth

John

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Hey, that picture is hanging crooked! And NO SIMPSONS CARTOONS allowed in the same room with the picture! Hee-hee, how ya doing, Bow? Haven't seen much of you since you went over to "The Dark Side".John, you oughtta burn those on a CD or email them to me or something, I can clean them up a bit, take some of the old age color cast out.Shame we can't restore ourselves as easily as ancient 35mm slides. Christmas 1957 or 1958 I'm guessing, you on the left and me on the right, obviously, Lynn upper right background, but who is that in profile just in front of Lynn?You wanna give these guys a good laugh, post the one of me in my TWA pajamas, you know the one I mean! Chuck:
"What you're getting mellow in your old age?"No, just lazy."Damn Airdales start a good fight and then run!"Well hell, you really want a fight, "I shall meet you at dawn, sir". Leave a note for the butler, coffee and pistols for two."Actually after a weekend with 2 of the GrandKritters I'm mentally and physically drained...."Getting old is not for sissies, you gotta be tough to withstand the aches and pains, hey?"And I thought you lived for our "intellectual discussions" ?"Makes my whole day. Seriously, I'm not even remotely interested in provoking a flamewar with anyone, I join in and finish flamewars with wicked glee, but I don't intentionally start them. Good example of my problem;http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID3/24234.htmlThe kid never came back, I suspect I may have offended him, but that wasn't my intent. Not my fault, all these guys;Taught me everything I know about etiquette and polite conversation.The bottom line as I see it is that although it is inconvenient to you the copyright rules apply if Julian cares to enforce them... Legally he hasn't abandoned anything, yet!
"The question is what will you do? Will you take a chance that Fozzy won't enforce them or if he does you can fuzz him up???? Or will you and the dragon slink off to your cave grumbling and fuming???"Probably slink, ever since "Little Jacky Paper" quit coming around, Puff just don't have the heart anymore."P.S. It looks like one of the other guyz has a possible contact point for Foz. I'd explore that avenue if your true intent is to get permission to release your repainting. As opposed to merely "stirring the pot"?"Stirring the pot is what I LIVE for."P.P.S. But you can keep stirring the pot as it tends to wake everyone up!"That IS my intent, get a dialog going. Good example here:http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID3/24250.htmlThe thing is, if you read John Milligan's documentation there is no EULA, copyright, or license agreement even mentioned anywhere, so "permission" isn't really required. I DID manage to pick up a LITTLE bit of Emily Post outside of Prosser Vocational High School tho, so when I hacked the same cityblock object to use default textures, I did send him an email asking for at least his blessing, which was freely given. Same with Ron's station signs, thanks again, Ron. That was a bit different tho, anyone uploads a scenery object they intend that it should be used in routes, why else would they upload it? If I'm gonna alter the original tho, it's at least polite to ask if they have any objections. Hunting up Cap'n Bazza for his MVpoolta turned out to be impossible, and I did "explore that route" with Fozzy and the Dr. Who Daleks, but his last post on that forum was a year ago.This whole thing isn't about Cap'n Bazza's ship or Fozzy's K-36 or the F7 sets done by Ken Boudreaux, it's about ALL of the needless restrictions. And no, it isn't life and death, it's just one more royal pain in a game that's already too full of royal pains. We all gotta jump thru enough *&%$#! sillyassed hoops for the trainsim editors just to get anything done, we shouldn't have to jump thru more hoops for each other.

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Jim,You could upload the re skinned loco on a conditional, or provisional status: that's to say just that, while, at the same time, you're trying to ascertain if Fozzy is still of this world which you state in the readme. And if you do have problems later, just say "Mike said it was OK". Change of topic:
I've seen you in that military pic with you in airman's gear, so what I wanted to know since seeing it is that were you a pilot?Mike

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Sniper297 Captain Bazza can be found here:
http://groups.msn.com/MSTSFanSiteForNZ His email address is on site ) ;o)Cheers
Looking for something DISTICTLY New Zealand?Then you'll probally find it at:
http://www.tsnz.co.nz
The site for Train Sim New Zealand.

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Isn't that Eddie Haskell 5th from the right in the back row? Didn't know you grew up in Mayfield, Jimbo....JBD

Jim Duncan
Midwest Rail Group

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Fozzy's "license" was kinda of ironic considering that the same arguments he used to defend it are similar to the one's that U.P. would have used to prevent him from publishing the K-36 with D&RGW in the first place.Imagine where model railroading would be today if model railroad manufacturers threatened lawsuits against customers that repainted equipment and published the pictures.I will point out however, there is a difference between what copyright law will apply to and what you put in a license agreement. You can put any thing in a license agreement - You can include "I agree to stand on your head and whistle 'Yankee Doodle' while using this product". If the user fails to whistle "Yankee Doodle" they may have violated the license agreement, but not copyright law.Ron
http://www.railwaystation.com

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>Fozzy's "license" was kinda of ironic considering that the
>same arguments he used to defend it are similar to the one's
>that U.P. would have used to prevent him from publishing the
>K-36 with D&RGW in the first place.
>Actually Ron they would have had very little trouble with Julian...
Since he is/was freeware they would have asked him to fill out a form certifying that he was freeware and acknowledging that UP is the original owner of the Trademarks... And fax or mail it in (pix of your work helps) and they would have routinely granted him a freeware use license!I have no idea where this UP is evil and is responsible for Alien Abduction, Crop Circles, Cattle Mutilation and the Failure of the British Rail Privatization program (or is that programme ?)
all comes from.....
Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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Hi Chuck,If I well remember, this was a "big US railman" who took the British rail freight. He loosed the WC, is not it? What did he do with the British freight, the Estonian freight, ...?Friendly,
Jean-Louis

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I think Fozzy is grandfathered in anyway, IIRC the K36 was uploaded before UP started the "license the air and tax the sunshine" campaign."Evil" is a subjective term anyway, I had an electical contracting business for about 10 years, and about 90% of my work came from subcontracting for evil builders and remodelers. Worst one was a guy named Ron Kafka, go to downtown Riverside Illinois, and 3/4ths of what you see is owned by Kafka Real Estate. Every dirty trick in the book, get the down payment, knock down a few walls and put up a dozen studs, and then ignore the customer for two years. Complain to the Better Business Bureau? Guess who was the president of the local Better Business Bureau! Payment for subcontractors was routinely six months late and a few hundred dollars short, and the checks were drawn on a dummy corporation from a bank in Wisconsin (in those days there was a seven day float on out of state checks). Reputation? No problem, trash a neighborhood and the word gets around, "Father & Son Remodeling will rip you off!" Okay, so go back into the same area 3 months later doing business as "RK Remodeling", no bad reputation. When that one gets infamous change names again, nothing illegal about it.Most remodelers and builders use dirty tricks, but Kafka was the king. The one and only exception I ever ran across was a company named "HomeCrafters", this guy scheduled everything perfectly so you never showed up on a job to find some other trade in your way, paid the 60% within a day of the rough-in inspection, and the final check came promptly after the finish & trim. Happy customers, happy subcontractors, the guy went bankrupt. Guess the moral is you can't compete with the unethical without being unethical yourself in the Land of the Brave and the Home of the Free.Mike: Yes. No.Hee-hee, actually a little of both. I was a private pilot, flew those little Cessnas and Pipers, but not a military pilot. I was aircrew, rode in the back looking over the shoulders of the guys actually flying when I wasn't squinting at the sonar trying to find Chuck's Soviet counterparts in their Jules Verne contraptions.Speaking of that, Chuck, this IS the "off topic" forum, how about a picture of you in your navy days? The only shot I got was from the party when you made Admiral, and since you had a heavy starboard list from all the torpedo fuel you drank, it's not a very good picture.

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OK 1967 in the North Atlantic....
I'm the lookout on the left! I'll have to look through my stuff at home and see what I still have and is scan able as opposed to what got destroyed when my uphill neighbor's pool had a major leak after the hurricane last year...Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-01-04 AT 01:16 PM (EST)

And here is one from almost 20 years later! Check out the pulsar watch a couple of years before I retire..... I was actually looking for one from when I was on the Honor Guard from 1963 and my retirement picture to sorta show the 26 year difference (heh! heh! Not all of us have intestinal parasites and stayed skinny Jim ) They were apparently part of the stuff (Including most of my old uniforms) that was ruined when the the up hill neighbor's above ground pool let go during the hurricane last year and we got a couple of gazillion gallons of water through our Daylight Basement's Door and windows.... Yeach! what a mess...
Not sure I would fit through the 21" torpedo loading hatch anymore!Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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I think that the time that Fozzy released the K-36, UP's position was still that they were not going to permit ANY train-sim use with the UP name or logos - including predecessor railroads. The UP public relations director called the game "Dangerous and irresponsible".Ron
http://www.railwaystation.com

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Jim,You have something in common with both Nels and Otto then!Chuck,What's your attitude to Pirates then?Mike

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LOL Jim you lucky bugger.. I'd give my Left arm to see Pink Floyd in concert and me Right arm to learn to fly a chopper.. Heck even a fly in one would be good !! It musta been fun.. My dad was a sonar operator for the R.A.N in the late 60's to early 70's.. Except he bounced around on the waves listening to whales most of the time Catchya

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HA! Yeah, Bow, even in the North Atlantic there were more whales than subs, and the whales were a lot noisier.Chuck, I was flying over my little town here in my UFO saucer, and noticed one of your buddies left his submarine here:http://terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?t=4&s=8&x=9032&y=92533&z=16&w=2Parked on dry land, musta been one hell of a party! (HIC!)

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Looks like a WW2 Fleet Boat....Didn't you guys used to have one parked at Navy Pier?????And why would anyone do an unnatural act like setting a man-o-war on dry land in concrete... Other than the Brits I mean (HMS Warrior isn't it?) Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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Chicagoans do a lot of wierd things when we get really drunk, one time we turned a river around so it flowed backwards. Yeah, USS Silversides was docked at Navy Pier for quite a while, along with a Destroyer Escort named Daniel A. Joy. Neither one is there now, don't know where they went. The one in the satellite pic ain't there anymore either, they're moving it underground to preserve it from the weather, gonna set up a new exhibit next year. That one belonged to another crazy guy from the Windy City, Dan Gallery. Where did he get it? He's from Chicago, he stole it! U-505, taken on June 4th, 1944, was the first enemy warship captured in battle by the US Navy since the War of 1812. Since the "Prize Money" thing no longer applied in WWII, they let Gallery have it after the war to give to the Museum of Science and Industry.

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Silversides is parked over on the other side of the Lake in Michigan.
Jim and I were allowed aboard for a very enjoyable couple of hours in
the late 50's (Mom didn't know we were downtown}

John

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A couple of years ago I was working as a contract gardener for HMAS Stirling Garden Island.. Whilst eating lunch on the lawn we'd been mowing, around the Flag poles on the Parade ground in front of the Submarine Jetty.. We both decide to wander over for a look at the Nuclear submarine that had Berthed in the night before.. And too our suprise the chap at the staircase offered us a tour off the whole ship !! "US?" we thought.. covered from head to toe in lawn clippings.. "Yes indeed !!" and we spent a good 40 mins from nose to tail in that thing.. Amazing.. I just wish i remebered her name. Then i got to compare her to the submarines of old as about a year ago, for a few days a week and over a few months, Me and a bunch of other fella's cleaned up the old slipways around the new Marinetime musuem here in Fremantle W.A.. Most of the job was repainting the old workers sheds but the part i enjoyed most was the moving and upgrading of the plaque to past Submariners around to the other side (Closer to museum entrance) of the dry docked submarine HMAS Ovens.. So more folks could see it. (Whoever placed it first time.. really wasnt thinking!)Another good part of it was getting to know the old timer staff and hearing the stories, They all worked showing tours through old HMAS Ovens (Oberon class) of which we all got 2 free tours on .. i tried for a 3rd ! Gota admire the Crap they went through on these machines.Some Images of HMAS Oven can be found here
http://www.nachohat.org/gallery/ships_hmas_ovensAnd some Info about the plaque and museum can be seen here
http://www.museum.wa.gov.au/display.asp?ipTypeID=92&et=4&ei=902There also used to be a web site soley about Submarines dry docked for display around the world.. but i can't seem to find it.Catchya's

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Here's a twist on the question:I myself am not artistically inclined at ALL. The only thing I've been able to "contribute" to the MSTS community was a rookie repaint of the default Superliners (technically a repaint of Buzz's repaint) into Phase III, long before we had accurate models etc. But for the sake of argument let's make me the bad guy and pretend that I'm a reskin master.I take a locomotive, for the sake of the example one of the UP units from the NALW megapack. I run it on my system and decide that the UP font doesn't look right, and I take it upon myself to fix the problem. Once I get it, I post a screenshot and others request that I upload the fix. For some reason Chuck and the fellas don't grant me permission.SO (lengthy premise I know)I open the original .ace file, get a rough idea of how the locomotive is mapped for the texture, and start a fresh, clean texture. Through trial and error, I finally get my texture to fit exactly on the texture mapping of the original 3D model. I save my .ace file, write up a readme that doesn't mention NALW in any way, other than something like "Compare to the NALW C44-9W" (you know, like the Dollar Store brands invite you to "Compare with *Brand Name*")Technically, I am not uploading ANY NALW content, nor am I using any part of their original .ace file...I've built my own to "fit" their mapping. I've simply uploaded my own .ace file, and if people want my repaint, they download the .ace, rename it whatever the original is called in their trains folder, and voila.Yes, I know this is a nasty, sticky situation...but what's the end result? NALW comes out and says something to the effect of "We don't recommend using Blake's .ace file, as we have nothing to do with it etc." Besides not making any friends, would there be (could there be) any fallout?
Keep in mind I have no intention, nor the skills needed, to ever attempt such a thing. But in the case of Fozzy's K36, what's to stop anybody from following the above procedure? Not sure if it's been discussed in-depth before.Blake Harris
Manager/Engineer, Jefferson and Cypress Bayou Railway
http://www.jeffersonrailway.com

Vice Dean, Limbaugh Institute for Advanced Conservative Studies

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Chuck
I'm surprised that Navy man such as yourself(and a submariner at that)would have been unaware of where one of the USN's prizes ended up,shocked,shocked Though in all seriousness if you ever get a chance to get up this way, the U-505 is a must see particularly once she's in her new digs plus the MSI has a real nice Navy exhibit.
Years back I was dating a girl and we went to the MSI and she thought that the museum should take better care of the exhibit as they obviously let some vandals get up and punch holes in the turret(her words,please don't hurt me)I informed her that the vandals that put the holes in the conning tower was the US Navy ,I'm happy to say my wife shares my interest in military history(mixed marrige,Army brat and Air Force brat)so such an error would never pass her lips.Sniper
Not sure on the disposistion of the Joy but IIRC I think the Silversides was moved directly across the lake to maritime museum as IIRC Her Lil General Richie didn't like those nasty military escapees from Gillette cluttering up his lakefrontGary S

42 year old future curmudgen(Hey you kids get offa my lawn!!)

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Show me something Hizzoner Junior DOES like, look what he did to Miegs Field!"Other side of the lake in Michigan", that's a hell of a big state to search, anyone got a town name?"(Mom didn't know we were downtown}"Don't try to pin that on me, I was only 7 or 8 years old, YOU were the BIG brother! Hee-hee, I remember the trip very well tho, LONG walk from the Randolph & Wabash EL station, but well worth it to walk thru the Silversides. Was that the same trip we got caught trying to walk all the way down the stairs from the top in the Prudential Building?Hmmm, what else we got here, Blake, we're talking submarines here, and you're trying to drag us back on topic? Don't you know this is the "Off Topic" forum?! Valid points, the whole concept of "Intellectual Property" always seemed a bit slippery to me, can anyone actually claim ownership of an idea, and prove that nobody else thought of it too? Theoretically if any part of what you do is based on someone else's work, that's plagarism, even if you study their work and create something from scratch based on that study. Look at some of the wierd convolutions Lionel, American Flyer, and Ives went thru back in the '20s to avoid patent infringement lawsuits, with stuff like similar reversing mechanisms and couplers, and they still spent a lot of time in court. Lionel patents a reverser for toy trains, how do you make your own reverser without producing something at least similar to theirs? Form follows function, anything you come up with that fills the same function is gonna have a similar form.Here's another wierd thought;The US government lives on credit, they borrow money against future generations to pay current debts, expenses, and funding. They have been doing that for a long time, so part of the last income tax payment you made went to pay interest on ancient loans. In the 1850s the US government gave away land and money to railroads, one of the major projects they financed (and had money stolen from by the likes of Daniel Drew and Jay Gould) was the transcontinental railroad project. The beginning of the Union Pacific Railroad was financed by the US taxpayers, and it not only cost your Great Grandpappy money, you yourself are still paying for it! So who really "owns" the Union Pacific logo?

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SniperShow me something Hizzoner Junior DOES like, look what he did to Miegs Field!Well I'm not real sure but if I'm the Tribune company I'm tripling the night security staff at Wrigley and checking to see if the Meigs Patrol bulldozers are staged in alleyways nearby"Other side of the lake in Michigan", that's a hell of a big state to search, anyone got a town name?Don't hold me to this as gospel(since I'm dragging it out of a cobwebbed corner of my mind(eww spiders,ick)but for some reason Benton Harbor comes to mind.Gary S

42 year old future curmudgen(Hey you kids get offa my lawn!!)

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Hi Jim,The Silversides is setting at the municipal pier in Muskegon, Mich, about 35 miles WNW of Grand Rapids.Don't know the name of the movie, but last year they took her out in Lake Michigan to film her for a movie.BTW, Muskegon is also the eastern terminus of the new high-speed ferry service across Lake Michigan to Milwaukee.Take Care,Larry Steiner

I don't suffer from insanity; I enjoy every minute of it!

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Well, I found Muskegon;http://terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?t=1&s=13&x=349&y=2992&z=16&w=2But can't see anything that looks like a sub. Maybe it sank, that IS what they're designed for! Hee-hee, handsome lad, Chuck, no gray hair yet! Funny thing, when I enlisted they had a weight to height chart, with a minimum and maximum weight for each height in inches listed. For 5' 6" the minimum weight was 105 lbs, I was 103 lbs. The doc told me to come back after lunch, I asked him how much I would have to eat to gain two pounds, and he said "Nothing, this afternoon you'll be an inch shorter". I thought he was making a weird joke, but apparently your spine stretches out when you sleep and compresses during the day, so as the day goes on you do indeed get shorter. Since the minimum weight for 5' 5" was 102 lbs, I was weighed and measured at 5' 5" and 103 lbs that afternoon, and just squeaked in. Nine weeks later I was 125 lbs, having put on 22 lbs of muscle in boot camp. In the last 10 years my waistline has gone from 30" to 32", so I AM getting SOME middle age spread, but I figure with 16 grandkids I earned at least a little paunch.

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Jim (and Chuck)Check this out:http://www.silversides.org/And by the way, that's not an appropriate subject heading for a thread about a submarine!Have a great day, guys,
Larry Steiner

I don't suffer from insanity; I enjoy every minute of it!

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I'm sorry but the pictures of Fozzy's K-36 need to be removed. Even though Fozzy is not on here as regular as he was it still gives no reason to break the copyright law that is stated in the readme for the K-36. I'm sorry if these offends anyone but the law is the law. Mods if these dosen't happen please delete this thread.Adam

Southern RR, Carolina Division, Linwood Yard, Linwood, NC

NCTM Volunteer

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I'm not sure which is worse, the dorks who pompously make up unnecessary rules to justify their own self importance, or the weenies who petulantly insist on rigid enforcement of pointless rules to give meaning to their worthless lives.

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>I'm not sure which is worse, the dorks who pompously make up
>unnecessary rules to justify their own self importance, or
>the weenies who petulantly insist on rigid enforcement of
>pointless rules to give meaning to their worthless lives. Come on Jim! Enough!You don't agree with freeware restrictions!We all know it! Quit beating a dead horse....Just because we don't agree with you doesn't make us,
"the dorks who pompously make up unnecessary rules to justify their own self importance, or the weenies who petulantly insist on rigid enforcement of pointless rules to give meaning to their worthless lives"I mean I could cast aspersions on the heritage and sexual orientation of the self centered and arrogant bozos who think that any rule that gets in the way of their immediate personal gratification is a personal affront too, but I won't!
Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-04-04 AT 05:37 PM (EST)

Chuck, Jim's a "playin": if he don't get the ball back, he throws another one--harder. BTW I hope you didn't mind me doing some funnies the other day. Yes, I'm sorry: I didn't get the NALW Challenger--these pirates eh!
Hey Jim, I've been working on that flag code, but I can only get the last word "Off": I'm stumped on the first though.

BTW Jim, How are yer gettin on with that female you picked off the streets the other week? You know...the one who throws herself at you with lovebites.Mike

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>Chuck, Jim's a "playin": if he don't get the ball back, he
>throws another one--harder. BTW I hope you didn't mind me
>doing some funnies the other day. Yes, I'm sorry: I didn't
>get the NALW Challenger--these pirates eh!
>
>
>Hey Jim, I've been working on that flag code, but I can only
>get the last word "Off": I'm stumped on the first though.
>
>BTW Jim, How are yer gettin on with that female you picked
>off the streets the other week? You know...the one who
>throws herself at you with lovebites.
>
>Mike
> I Know he is Mike....I was firing back in the same spirit!Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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That's exactly what I mean about pointless rules, "Don't beat a dead horse". If you absolutely MUST beat a horse, a dead one is the best kind to beat since they can't feel a thing, so I never understood the injunction.Mike, "love bites", the biter is currently getting bit. We've had a complete dog turnover this year, poor old Bo (14 year old Doberman) finally expired last week, and Shannon (1 1/2 year old Border Collie) found a low spot in the fence behind the garage, and after a little digging she made a jailbreak and hasn't been seen since. At that point we only had one left, the Pit Bull that somebody dumped over the fence a few weeks back. I wasn't planning to get any more dogs, but a neighbor on the next block bought a Border Collie/German Shepard mix, and after having her for about a month it became apparent that the youngest boy was allergic. So we aquired Lady (previously named, didn't want to change it) two days ago, and haven't had a moment's rest since.This one is about half the size and one third the weight of the Pit Bull;And Pitsie just wants to play, but don't know her own strength. Consequently she got too rough and either hurt or scared Lady, who promptly transmorgified into a cat and tore the hell out of Pitsie in a whirl of flying fur. Lady is 4 months old, Pitsie is 7 months old, but it's already apparent who's gonna be the dominant one.Pitsie is quickly finding that while a Pit Bull is strong, anything with the slightest trace of Border Collie in the breed is very, very fast and extremely agile.

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As far as I can tell, there is NO violation of U.S. copyright law here. At worst, it is a violation of Fozzy's questionable EULA. Legally, there is a huge difference.

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>As far as I can tell, there is NO violation of U.S.
>copyright law here. At worst, it is a violation of Fozzy's
>questionable EULA. Legally, there is a huge difference. Correct, or at least until such time as it is distributed without Julian's permission!Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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Tee Hee! Lots of grey hair now Jim...
That damn picture is almost 20 years old....
Also my chest has dropped into my drawers along with another 20 or 30 pounds... I was 6'3" and 180lbs when I enlisted and 6'2.5" and 230 lbs when I retired..... According to the "official records anyway... LOL!Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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you know, IIRC, that EULA was written by Fozzy shortly after Marconi? (I forget HOW to spell his name) was stealing files and uploading them on his website.I remember several funky EULA's popping up after that, my own included (just look for the really rotten CNW SW 1500 in the FL). Somehow, I keep thinking that Fozzy's was a product of that.That having been said, I'd upload it anyway. Worst case scenario, he could come back and ask nels to pull it.

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Here's a link that might help to answer some questions.http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID1/8922.html

Hawk

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Warrior is still afloat. Victory is in permanent dry dock. Putting them in concrete has serious long term implications for hull corrosion. I doubt that method will be used much, if at all, in the future. FWIW, anyone going to England with any interest in ships at all should really go visit the Portsmouth area. The Warrior, Victory, a WW I monitor, and the Mary Rose are all at the Portsmouth Naval Museum (I think that the correct name) and there are a submarine museum and some other sites (and sights) in the area.I remember one the things that struck me was a sign on the wall surrounding the Naval enclosure that stated it had been built in 1711 at the direction of the King. Wow! This here wall has half a century on my country!!
Brad Meyer

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