In defence of the French

LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-04 AT 02:59 PM (EST)

It hasn't gone unnoticed that there is or has been some anti-French sentiment on this forum; thus, we need to take a more broad minded perspective on this old and culturally rich nation. Yes, it's true that we Brits from time to time suffer the bloody-mindedness and ruthless selfishness of a section of French society (The lorry/truck drivers, the Farmers and most recently the fishermen) who not only blockade the ports but actually block off intersections of all roads trapping British travellers for two or three days while the police look on. Yes, this form of malicious terrorism has to be deplored, but not let us forget the bigger picture of this great nation: the English language has been immeasurable enriched by the many thousands of words that we English speakers now take for granted, then there is the gastronomic contribution that they have given to the world, and let us not forget that they gave the United States a most enduring gift: the Statue of Liberty which represent the principle of freedom and liberty enshrined in that gift of good will.Please do not taint the underlying integrity that France stands for, and besides their trains are the fastest and the best.Vive la France!Mike

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RE: In defence of the French, JonN, Dec-14-04, 05:50 PM, (1) RE: In defence of the French, mjs2101, Dec-14-04, 08:45 PM, (4) RE: In defence of the French, JonN, Dec-15-04, 11:49 PM, (15) RE: In defence of the French, NW_611, Dec-16-04, 00:37 AM, (16) RE: In defence of the French, century242, Dec-15-04, 00:23 AM, (6) RE: In defence of the French, BN_9402, Dec-14-04, 06:34 PM, (2) RE: In defence of the French, Poltergeist, Dec-14-04, 07:10 PM, (3) RE: In defence of the French, muskokaandtahoe, Dec-14-04, 11:37 PM, (5) RE: In defence of the French, Gixxer86g, Dec-15-04, 06:36 AM, (7) RE: In defence of the French, al_cff, Dec-15-04, 02:10 PM, (10) RE: In defence of the French, JonN, Dec-15-04, 10:24 AM, (8) You don't kwnow the France, al_cff, Dec-15-04, 02:04 PM, (9) RE: Human Rights, century242, Dec-15-04, 03:53 PM, (11) RE: Human Rights, smallspy, Dec-16-04, 01:43 AM, (17) RE: Human Rights, JonN, Dec-16-04, 02:21 AM, (18) The Planet, century242, Dec-16-04, 11:17 AM, (19) RE: You don't know the France, muskokaandtahoe, Dec-15-04, 04:36 PM, (12) RE: You don't know the France, Andy J, Dec-15-04, 05:26 PM, (13) RE: You don't know the France, muskokaandtahoe, Dec-15-04, 05:53 PM, (14) RE: China, al_cff, Dec-16-04, 04:23 PM, (20) RE: Back to France and the French, sinclair97, Dec-16-04, 04:56 PM, (21) RE: Back to France and the French, chucksc, Dec-16-04, 05:39 PM, (22) RE: Back to France and the French, muskokaandtahoe, Dec-16-04, 05:54 PM, (23) RE: Back to France and the French, renevanh, Dec-16-04, 06:01 PM, (24) RE: Back to France and the French, muskokaandtahoe, Dec-16-04, 08:46 PM, (27) RE: Back to France and the French, sstyrnol, Dec-17-04, 06:25 AM, (31) RE: Back to France and the French, USRailFan, Dec-25-04, 03:54 AM, (49) RE: Back to France and the French, CGW409, Dec-16-04, 06:42 PM, (25) RE: Back to France and the French, sinclair97, Dec-16-04, 07:34 PM, (26) RE: Back to France and the French, CGW409, Dec-16-04, 09:56 PM, (28) RE: Back to France and the French, chucksc, Dec-16-04, 10:28 PM, (29) RE: Back to France and the French, Andy J, Dec-16-04, 11:30 PM, (30) RE: In defence of the French, sstyrnol, Dec-17-04, 06:44 AM, (32) RE: In defence of the French, muskokaandtahoe, Dec-17-04, 11:35 AM, (33) RE: In defence of the French, Andy J, Dec-17-04, 12:16 PM, (34) RE: In defence of the French, muskokaandtahoe, Dec-17-04, 02:33 PM, (35) RE: In defence of the French, Andy J, Dec-17-04, 02:41 PM, (36) RE: In defence of the French, Gixxer86g, Dec-17-04, 06:35 PM, (37) RE: In defence of the French, mjs2101, Dec-17-04, 07:08 PM, (38) RE: In defence of the French, Gixxer86g, Dec-17-04, 09:48 PM, (39) RE: In defence of the French, chucksc, Dec-18-04, 12:38 PM, (40) RE: Oh No! Now look what you have done!, sinclair97, Dec-18-04, 06:34 PM, (41) RE: Oh No! Now look what you have done!, Gixxer86g, Dec-19-04, 05:59 AM, (42) RE: In defence of the French, CGW409, Dec-19-04, 12:19 PM, (43) RE: In defence of the French, mjs2101, Dec-20-04, 00:12 AM, (44) RE: In defence of the French, msavianney, Dec-23-04, 08:50 PM, (45) RE: In defence of the French, Andy J, Dec-23-04, 10:06 PM, (46) RE: In defence of the French, msavianney, Dec-24-04, 11:54 PM, (47) RE: In defence of the French, Erick_Cantu, Dec-25-04, 00:46 AM, (48) RE: In defence of the French, sinclair97, Dec-25-04, 09:33 AM, (50) RE: In defence of the French, JonN, Dec-25-04, 06:31 PM, (51)

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-04 AT 05:52 PM (EST)

I dislike the French because they tend to be insufferably arrogant, probably because they cannot accept that they're no longer a world power, so they have to scream off the tallest buildings about how cool they are (Im my experience on internet forums, the only people who are more likely to be jingoistic twits than the French are the ChiComs). I especially hate how they're so protective of their language that they even have an entire government ministry devoted to preserving it. Also, did you miss how they recently wanted to make French the official language of the EU, despite the fact that more EU citizens can speak English than any other language...Jonathan Nikiforovs.
Milepost 180, CP Belleville Sub.

Repainter for Yonder Locomotive Works.

"A crictic is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased - he hates all creative people equally." - Lazarus Long

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What is wrong with a country trying to preserve their language? Personally I applaud such measures! and I hope that more countries and cultures do the same. When I was in Russia in 1999, they were looking to do a similar thing to help preserve their language from being over-run and abused by foreign languages. Of course it would also be nice if the US would actually adopt an official language one of these days. As for the "smelly" people, you will find that it is mostly the US that is so anal about taking a bath everyday and putting on deodorant, perfume or what ever daily as well. You will find many counties in the world that do not devote so much of their time to personal hygiene as here in the US.Mykel

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-04 AT 11:54 PM (EST)

>What is wrong with a country trying to preserve their
>language? Personally I applaud such measures! and I hope
>that more countries and cultures do the same. When I was in
>Russia in 1999, they were looking to do a similar thing to
>help preserve their language from being over-run and abused
>by foreign languages. A language is in the end a frivilous thing that has no place being protected by a governement, and should be allowed to evolve without interference: If a language will die without government intervention, then frankly it deserves to die (and French is in no danger of dying off anytime soon). You don't see the governments of Germany, Spain or Italy taking their language so seriously, now do you? Also, did you miss the part about how France wants to make French the official language of the EU, when simple logic dictates that it should be English. France in the only EU country that has demanded that THEIR language be the official EU language.Oh, and I'm willing to bet that the "language protection" efforts in Russia are mostly being pushed by the xenophobic fascists that seem to be proliferating there recently.Jonathan Nikiforovs.
Milepost 180, CP Belleville Sub.

Repainter for Yonder Locomotive Works.

"A crictic is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased - he hates all creative people equally." - Lazarus Long

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As for the "smelly" people, you will find that it is mostly the US that is so anal about taking a bath everyday and putting on deodorant, perfume or what ever daily as well. You will find many counties in the world that do not devote so much of their time to personal hygiene as here in the US.Am I the only one that sees something somewhat humorous about not wanting to smell bad being described as 'anal'? Talk about your oxymorons! If the rest of the world doesn't devote "so much of their time" to personal hygiene, then perhaps they do qualify for being described as "smelly". Tee hee.

____________________________________________________________________
Norfolk & Western’s Radford Division, Pulaski District: Who needs the Marias Pass?

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This does not have much to do with this conversation, but in the late 40's or early 50's the US was appraoched by the folks from Vietnam (WTF was his name, Ho Chi Min?). Well anyway we were asked to support their move towards independance from the French Govt. We told them to get lost so they turned to Communism. As you all know we ended up there anyway when the French pulled out.
Regards,
Erik Pierson
Sacramento, Cawww.sacramentolocomotiveworks.com
You can find information about SLW upcoming releases at the following links
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French people smell...And yes, I've been to France this past summer, and boy was I ready to move on to Switzerland after those 2 days in the Paris area!Austin

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My grandpa shared a story with me a long time ago. Back in WW II He was in the European theathre, and during his service there he was part in the liberation of France operation. Well one day his troop was going to go through a small town, and he was choosen as scout. He went to the town and they were waving German flags. BUT when his troop marched through, they threw a parade, and was flying the American flag. Now on a hunch he decided to go back and once again they were flying the German flag. It seems to him that the French like to sell out. And they can be arrogant.

Sean Summer AKA Poltergeist
"The voices, the voices, I hear them, they're with me, so I follow I follow..." ~Eminem's "Guilty Conscious"

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-04 AT 11:45 PM (EST)

> Please do not taint the underlying integrity that France stands for....You mean the 1000 years of France hating the English speaking people of the world, 'cept for those few decades when they were scared to death of the Germans? That underlying integrity? Well, okay. They had real integrity for most of that time. It is really our own poor education system that should be shamed, having foolishly taught our children that France has always been a freind when objectively no such "pure" relationship existed. Yeah, a period of joint convergence of objectives now and then but that happens with any two countries anywhere.

Just wait and see folks -- US:French relations are only just beginning to go from sour to bad. Give it another 10 or 20 years and see how much more worse things can get.In the meanwhile, here's a few basic tenents of International Relations to consider:"Countries have no permanent friends only permanent interests". And that's true of both France and the U.S.Power abhors a vacuum.A unipolar world is inherently stable in the short term and inherently unstable over a long period of time. A bipolar world is inherently dangerous at any time. A multipolar world means lots of wars, little or big, everywhere you go. Pick one.Dave NelsonWP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 100% complete;
SP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 20% complete;
Aug 1950
Protect the Public Domain from Micky Mouse laws
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LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-04 AT 06:37 AM (EST)

There was a time ,when I was a little kid,that I actually though the Statue of Liberty was important.But the more I learned about France the more I disliked them.After the past couple of years,I've decided the Statue doesn't belong here.It belongs back home in Paris with the Eiffel Tower shoved up her hairy you know what.Here's a few funny links.http://www.strategypage.com/humor/articles/20030130.asp
http://www.strategypage.com/humor/articles/20030213.asp
http://www.strategypage.com/humor/articles/military_humor_complete_list_of_french_jokes.asp
http://www.strategypage.com/humor/articles/military_joke_french_threat_levels.asp

"Hold tight,feel the drivers bite,hear the whistle moan.Engine rockin' to the left and right,vibratin' in my bones.Once the locomotive steals your soul,you got a Casey Jones!"---Ian"Lemmy"Kilmister

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It's not with jokes that you can learn about france !Have you ever open an History book ?Al_cff
(Alexandre Frauenknecht)

The densest, the most pratical railway in the world : the Swiss Federal Railway http://www.rail.ch
For the swiss people, railway is every day !!!, and now discover the new timetable (one train every 15 min on main national connexion) on http://www.rail.ch

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-04 AT 10:25 AM (EST)

>You mean the 1000 years of France hating the English
>speaking people of the world, 'cept for those few decades
>when they were scared to death of the Germans? That
>underlying integrity? Well, okay. They had real integrity
>for most of that time. The Pro France crowd will probably remind you about how France helped out in the American Revolution, but the obvious retort to that was the French involvement was purely self-serving, in that the only reason they got involved because the Revolution hurt the British and forced them to draw troops away from Europe: Also the French hoped the new country would be an ally who would help advance France's strategic objectives in the New World: Case in point, Napoleon was constantly trying to get America to help him out in his little wars...Jonathan Nikiforovs.
Milepost 180, CP Belleville Sub.

Repainter for Yonder Locomotive Works.

"A crictic is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased - he hates all creative people equally." - Lazarus Long

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I am living in Switzerland, and we speak french in our part of country.I have some french friends, and i have only one thing to say to the people who "dislike french arogence":
YOUR REALY DON'T KNOW THE FRENCH POEPLE Their governement are probabily more responsible than US one (for ex.: they sign the Kioto protocol), and they respect Human Rights !And in our country, the stereotype is "The American people are arongent". I am realy not saying that it's true, but I just want to remember you, that the European people are, sometimes, shoked by the US decision.And i think it's evident for a french speaking country to preserve their language: for exemple, in Switzerland, a big part of the advertisement are in english.So I love everybody, and I hope I won't shoke anyone,Good day
Al_cff
(Alexandre Frauenknecht)

The densest, the most pratical railway in the world : the Swiss Federal Railway http://www.rail.ch
For the swiss people, railway is every day !!!, and now discover the new timetable (one train every 15 min on main national connexion) on http://www.rail.ch

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The US did not sign the Kyoto Treaty because it was not in our best interest. I do not recall all the details at this moment as my mind is full of details on how to operate an engine properly. Now as far as you inferring that the US does not respect Human Rights, that is a load of Horse Sh!t.
As much as people from other parts of the world point there fingers and say that the US mistreats people, maybe you should open your eyes and see what your country is doing. We have all sorts of laws in this country restricting what one can say or do concerning people of other races. We do not have ethnic cleansing, such as other countries in Europe do.
Hell, even the homeless in this country get treated better then folks in countries that point the finger at the US.
Regards,
Erik Pierson
Sacramento, Cawww.sacramentolocomotiveworks.com
You can find information about SLW upcoming releases at the following links
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>The US did not sign the Kyoto Treaty because it was not in
>our best interest.So your interests are of a higher priority than those of the planet?DanEveryone is entitled to their opinion no matter how wrong it is.

www.greatlakesrail.com

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-04 AT 02:25 AM (EST)

>So your interests are of a higher priority than those of the
>planet?Kyoto is stupid, because it exempts developing countries, who are set to become the biggest producers of "greenhouse gasses" in the next few decades: China is already the second biggest producer after the US, and India is in the top 10. IIRC, the exemption of developing countries is the single biggest reason the US Senate voted 95-0 not to ratify Kyoto.Also, I doubt Russia had the "interests of the planet" in mind when they signed, given that a loophole (countries must lower emmisions from 1990 levels under Kyoto, at which point the USSR still existed and thus Russia's "1990 emmisions levels" are actually those of the USSR) allows them to do didly squat about Kyoto and still pump out toxic waste as prolificly as ever while still technically abiding by the treaty...Also, the EU has discovered that it will miss Kyoto's 2010 emissions targets, and EU greenhouse emmisions will in fact go up from their 1990 levels (though probably not as much as they would have without Kyoto)...Jonathan Nikiforovs.
Milepost 180, CP Belleville Sub.

Repainter for Yonder Locomotive Works.

"A crictic is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased - he hates all creative people equally." - Lazarus Long

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You know what Dan, This whole greenhouse stuff is just pure BS. I was watching something last night that said some iceberg in Antartica had shrunk a 100yards last year. Whoopdee doo 100 frickin' yards, part of an iceberg's nature is that it grows and shrinks. A few years ago the same people were complaining because the thing had grown and was prohibiting them to resupply their science station. I agree that we need to clean up some materials before they are discharged into the water systems or buried. But the way we are headed (California is already there), we will have these frickin' ENVIROMENTAL NIMBYs telling us what we can and can not do. There is a part of California that has rail, but no service. Partly because the company does not have the money to rebuild the line after it was washed out and partly becaue the NIMBYs have been doing everything in their power to see that it never reopens. This is an extremely shortsighted point of view. This area benefits greatly when the line is open.
They would rather sit in their VWs and smoke their dope or hang out at the local Starbucks or Java City planning their next stunt. They like to climb trees to live with the spotted owl ensuring that all the lumber mills in the area shut down and no one has a job. The US takes great pain to be "kind" to the planet, you NIMBYs need to go look at some other country.
It is easy for you to point a finger at the country that is on the front page of nearly every paper.
It is easy for you to make fun of this country because it is politically correct for you to do so.
What is not easy is to take a stand in support of the US, even when you know we are correct.(Shakes my head in disgust as I step off the soap box)<sigh> Regards,
Erik Pierson
Sacramento, Cawww.sacramentolocomotiveworks.com
You can find information about SLW upcoming releases at the following links
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LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-04 AT 04:51 PM (EST)

Alexandre,a lot of it comes down to what you know and what comes as a surprise. For instance, the French signed the Kyoto treaty, in part, because a huge amount of their own electricity is produced in nuclear generating plants and so any reductions in CO2 emissions would not have much effect on their economy. And so to some people their government looks great, at least on that issue, and the US government looks bad in comparison. But where does the waste from all those nuclear plants go, a place where they'll be secure for 300,000 years? Well, that's not part of Kyoto so it's no problem, right? I don't think so.And what part of France's last 10 years in Algeria included respecting human rights? And today they're certainly playing "hardball" with their resident muslims.So it's easy enough to find this or that fact and pull it out just to argue. What I posted earlier, that nations have no permanent freinds, only permanent interests, has no subjective qualities in it. It's just a fact, no opinion, not right or wrong, no good or bad. The same for 'power abhors a vacume'. Just a fact. So if you take those ideas and examine the 20th century I beleive you will see the great war of 1914-1989. It starts in a multipolar world and in the course of 25 years destroys all but one of the European Empires. This leads us into in a bi-polar world, and with the collapse of that last European Empire in 1989, the great war finally ends. After a few years of relief we all come to realize it's a unipolar world. Something happens and in the absence of alternative power centers, the one country that has power steps into it's new role -- remember, power abhors a vacuum. All of that can be described objectively, w/o tossing about subjective criticisms about this or that country. It is just the facts. And so the US takes this role. Now on the other side you have the French, will nearly 1000 years of conflict with the English speaking peoples to influence their thinking, draw the conclusion that this too is not good. Doesn't matter why, it just is. And that will run it's course for quite a few years, whether you or I or anybody else likes it or not. And eventually it too will change.So having described all that as dryly as I can, with the full realization that not even governments can change the course of events that will be played out over the next 50 years, I think it's okay when some individual makes a joke about the French being "cheese eating surrender monkeys". Because making a joke is about all any one individual can do.
BTW, here's a view of China taken 2 years ago. They don't have to do anything about CO2 pollution under Kyoto. Is that fair?Dave NelsonWP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 100% complete;
SP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 20% complete;
Aug 1950
Protect the Public Domain from Micky Mouse laws
http://eldred.cc/

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>
>BTW, here's a view of China taken 2 years ago. They don't
>have to do anything about CO2 pollution under Kyoto. Is
>that fair?
>
>
>
>Dave Nelson
>
>WP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 100% complete;
>SP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 20% complete;
>Aug 1950
>
>
>
>Protect the Public Domain from Micky Mouse laws
>http://eldred.cc/ Been waiting to use this!!
Andy J http://www.blueridgerails.com/

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Wierd. It was there. I'll try again.Dave NelsonWP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 100% complete;
SP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 20% complete;
Aug 1950
Protect the Public Domain from Micky Mouse laws
http://eldred.cc/

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Well,
I don't say that China was better than U.S. about CO2 pollution ! Probabily they don't ! (But an american or an european use probabily 7 times more water than a chinese)But look at countries like Nordway, Sweden or Switzerland. In this last counrty, for exemple, ~ 75% of the freight traffic throug the Alps is carried by electrical trains (elecrticity is produced with hydro-electric power).US governement has to do a lot to rebuilt the passenger rail network. It has to be speedy, eco-friendly, and economical.I think that the US people want it, but the first thing they had to do, is to change their "W Bush" governement.They also have to use their "super power" to make other poor (or not) countries more eco-friendly, instead of puting them in "AXIS OF EVIL".The USA is not the country wich does the most for the environment. They begin to move, fo sure, but it is still the country wich consume the bigest quantity of petroleum per inhabitants !http://www.greenpeace.orgAl_cff
(Alexandre Frauenknecht)

The densest, the most pratical railway in the world : the Swiss Federal Railway http://www.rail.ch
For the swiss people, railway is every day !!!, and now discover the new timetable (one train every 15 min on main national connexion) on http://www.rail.ch

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-04 AT 04:59 PM (EST)

Gintlemen! Gintlemen! gintlemen! This will not do; yes, you can criticize (as I have quite openly) aspects, and facets of French society, as you can any country--including the USA--but what you cannot do on a forum of cosmopolitan and international importance such as ours is condemn a nation and all of its people out of hand by pejorative or derogatory remarks such as "The French are smelly." I have French friends who are not smelly, and I have French friends who have been great assistance to me.Don't forget that Switzerland has French (along side German) as its national language, and that there are a number of Swiss members who--I know are dismayed at the petty-mindedness, discrimination, and downright ignorance shown by some members, who, it is hoped, are not Representative of the generally good-natured, and open characteristics of the American people.Mr 1000 posts himself

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-04 AT 05:46 PM (EST)

"I think that the US people want it, but the first thing they had to do, is to change their "W Bush" government"And that's ok? How? Just in case you were asleep for the last month or so there Rip Van Winkle.... We heard the opinions of Europe and watched the UN attempt to influence our election and gave you all the finger and re-elected Dubya.... And BTW Kyoto was spiked on Billary's watch and John Kerry voted to 86 it also.....All things being fair then It is my strong belief that the "smelly" Europeans and Russians should immediately change their corrupt and unhygienic governments......
Geese I wonder if anyone understands that a lot of the "smell" has to do with diet? You should have heard what the Vietnamese said about the way we smell...... And that is from a culture "steeped in "fish sauce" (pun intended), literally! BTW Who do I send my EU campaign contributions too and who will join me in starting a Chirac is a corrupt politician who beats his wife! web site.... ?????? After all that is about as accurate a characterization of them as some of the ones about us I read on here....Sheesh, talk about one sidedChuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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> Geese I wonder if anyone understands that a lot of the "smell" has to do with diet?Got that right. I recall a time I was in Charles De Gaulle airport in Paris and there was this incredible smell... really foul, and I was looking around wondering where it was coming from and about 150' away I see an Air Gabon gate crowded with arriving passengers. It was them and the smell was of rancid peanut oil, which is a major part of the west African diet and the odor was in their sweat. No doubt they were curling up their noses in disgust too, only for them it would have been the unpleasant smell of sour milk coming off all of us, the scent of our sweat.Then there were these guys unwrapping their foot cloths in the train compartment... well, maybe some other time.Dave NelsonWP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 100% complete;
SP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 20% complete;
Aug 1950
Protect the Public Domain from Micky Mouse laws
http://eldred.cc/

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-04 AT 06:03 PM (EST)

>I dislike the French because they tend to be insufferably >arrogant, probably because they cannot accept that they're no >longer a world power, (...)I disagree.
The french haven't ever been a real world power. Ok, in times of "sunking", beter known as louis XIV, the french owned a big part of europe, and lots of colonies, but that is quite a while ago...The Americans think they are the biggest world power now, and because of the french were and are against the iraqi war, the big thing around the "war on terrorism" and all that kind of things, the are now disliked, or even hated by Americans.>I especially hate how they're so protective of their language that >they even have an entire government ministry devoted to preserving >it. Protect your own language is something you do out of your culture. Mostly, when a language disappears, the culture will also go, and the french want to prevent that.
I don't know if you have ever been in France, but most people there really can speak English. Esspecially the younger people. (aged 30 and less).However, I think this discussion is someway a bit one-sided.
Why? Well, let me explain.
Many other countries, some in Europe, some in other parts of the world, want to defend their language and culture. The swedish people want to, the germans want to, and the greek also.
But only the french are saying it loud, not only when asked.Maybe the greek nationalism isn't really well know, because of their not really well known language, and maybe people around here are somehow afraid to say things like these about german people.
I don't know, but in my opinion, this discussion is to specific about the french... Why don't we involve other languages and cultures in it?
Why are so much Americans actually "french-haters". Is it becuase of Iraq and the objection of the french, or is it because of a kind of jealousy?I really would like to know...Regards,René
quotes from: Jonathan Nikiforovs.-----------------------------
Don't take life to serious, You won't survive it anyway...

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-04 AT 08:51 PM (EST)

> Why are so much Americans actually "french-haters". Is it because of Iraq... ?Lots of Americans thought an ally in WWII was a freind forever. So what happened recently over Iraq was a big surprise. Foolish thinking, but true.For me the French Government's position on Iraq was (a) nothing new and (b) not unexpected. Just the last straw. Dave NelsonWP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 100% complete;
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"Protect your own language is something you do out of your culture. Mostly, when a language disappears, the culture will also go, and the french want to prevent that."What happens in France and in Germany as well is, that we take over more and more words mostly from English and forget their native words so that we use the English word instead. The more this happens the more our own native language loses it individuality and as it has been said before, a major part of its culture."Why are so much Americans actually "french-haters". Is it becuase of Iraq and the objection of the french, or is it because of a kind of jealousy?"My impression is, that in the USA there is a strong tendency to polarise things. 'Who isn't with us, is against us!' The French as did the Germans objected openly against the proposed actions. Now, I won't say whether I find it good or bad, but thy did it. However, what I find most shocking is the fact that a 'disagreeing' with the actions of another nation's government leads to the general disliking of an entire people. When I hear such comments as 'French people stink!' I feel sick! I am betting the rest of my hair that most people in this thread only know no are just a few French people personally. As a European I had contacts to quite a few French and I can assure you, they know as much of body hygiene as you or I. IMHO, what people on both sides (Europe and America that is) have to learn to accept each others interests, opinions and motivations. Discussion about that is okay, but to condemn an entire people is just wrong IMHO. Personally, I have got the impression that some Americans are downright arrogant and stupid, yet I do not write that in every sentence dealing with them.Furthermore, regarding historical references, there are a lot of things happened in the past like WW2, Vietnam etc. I know a lot of those things are an open wound, especially to those who experienced it personally. My respect to those, but my question is, isn't it time to let the dead rest in their grave and go on? Isn't it wrong to judge a people by their past? Are you for example judging me by what my ancestors did in WW1 or 2? Are you telling me that my reactions are typical as my Grandfather was in the 'Waffen-SS'? I doubt it. Thus my call is for some tolerance and the attempt to judge a people on the basis of your very experience and not by what you hear or what happened in the past.Cheers!Sebastian

Visit my "sebastian's trains pages" at http://www.freewebs.com/sstyrnol ...

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Umm, Chuck, most of us Europeans know full well that Chirac is a corrupt asshole that should be removed from power as quickly as possible, and the only reason he is still president of France, is that his opponent in the last election was Jean Marie Le Pen (and I don't need to tell you what THAT guy stands for, I think...)

Leiv Eiriksson was first - Christoffer Columbus used a Viking map!

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SinclairDon't forget that Switzerland has French (along side German) as its national languageThis is true but also remember the Swiss maintain nutrality(sp?) by having the cajones to promise a serious sh** storm to anyone not deciding to abide by their decision to stay out of things(I'm pretty sure the fact every household having heavy fire power helped ol Adolph to decide not to just blitzkreig his way across Switerland.Gary S

43 year old future curmudgen(Hey you kids get offa my lawn!!)

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Gary (you can call me Mike),No one is disputing the very real and justifiable annoyance and frustration felt by you the Americans and by us the British at the non-military intervention and sheer bloody-minded lack of cooperation of the French government which has cost both our countries dearly in the hundreds of deaths of our soldiers; however, French government policies ought not to be responsible for condemning the whole of the French nation. Mike

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Mike
Agreed on that point that the entire populace should not be tarred with too broad a brush,actually I've got an aquantance who is a retired Navy SEAL(actually seen him on a Navy recruiting poster hanging in a recruiting office window so he's not a SEAL wannabe)and he relayed to me that for the most part outside of Paris a good chunk of the French are decent people(going to have Aholes everywhere)but said that it seemed to him at least that the sterotypical "rude Frenchman" was usually Parisian.Gary S

43 year old future curmudgen(Hey you kids get offa my lawn!!)

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"the sterotypical "rude Frenchman" was usually Parisian"That was my experience also.....That and their Military Officer Class....Hell you'd have thought they won single handed in both WWs and SE Asia to hear them pontificate.... You had to serve on a joint staff to fully appreciate them....We used to say NATO stood for No Action Talk Only when ever the French were involved....Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-04 AT 11:35 PM (EST)

I can tell some that wonder about WHY most Americans detest the French.It boils down to simple respect, most Americans fully realize the French helped us in the revolution, and are grateful. Most Americans realize that we helped run the Germans out of France not once. BUT TWICE. We did not mind doing it, at the time; it was clearly the right thing to do. We also brought up the slack when you left Vietnam in a mess, and we left many Americans strewn dead on battlefields around the world. Just helping out our “European allies”. American memories are LONG, evidently European ones are not.We continued to pay higher taxes for YEARS after the war, just to pay for the “Marshall Plan” after WWII, to pay for rebuilding YOUR TOWNS AND CITES after the war, we DID NOT destroy them, we rebuilt them. We Americans did this out of the goodness of or heart. And yet some still want us as the “world’s only super power to make poor countries more eco friendly”?? Why??? When we do we got treated like a prostitute, case in point, the North Koreans, who do you think FEEDS THEIR PEOPLE? American grain does!! We have been feeding them for years now and yet, they piss on us every chance they get, and I wish President Bush would tell them to go eat their nuclear bombs, if they are so hungry, might I digress!It is a FACT that the United States gives more in aid around the world than the REST OF THE WORLD COMBINED. And YET some want MORE?? Why don’t they do for themselves instead of asking for a hand out? If the Europeans feel that there is some serious shortfalls in “aid” let THEM pick up the slack! I am certain Kofi Annan can use some more money, since the “Oil for Food” program has been shut down, and there is all kinds of improprieties pointing directly at him and his crooked son. But yet, to the Europeans, “W” is the criminal, Kofi is the hero.Ahhhh. Back to the French………………..
It honestly did not bother me that the French disagreed with us going into Iraq, and it did not bother me that they did not offer ANY KIND of support. I can respect honest differences and still call them “friend” and “ally” It DID bother me that they ACTIVELY WORKED AGAINST US. It bothered me that the French WHERE in it for “the oil” like they said of us, which was a patently false charge since ANY AMERICAN COMPANY that did ANY bissness with Saddam’s Iraq would promptly be in mountains of very expensive trouble, not so European companies, might I digress again.It bothers me that our troops found NEW French military equipment in Iraq, It also bothers me that (Pardon me I can’t spell his name) Jock “Strap” Crotch, the French president, has been tied monetarily to Saddam, along with (SHOCK) oil contracts. Simply put, he (among others) was in Saddam’s back pocketAnd YET, all the French folks can say is how evil “W” is and compare him to Adolph Hitler, That PROVES to me that they have short memories.In nearly every small town in America, there are small monuments, to OUR solders that gave their lives to help others, the monuments are small, and usually consist of just a list of names. These spots are hallowed ground to us. I have seen how the cemeteries in Normandy are vandalized regularly…………….It make my blood BOIL, I want to bring our war dead HOME, where they are appreciated, because the French have forgotten. IMHO, We Americans do not need to mend relations with French……They need to mend relations with us…………We have been a TRUE friend to them; we have stood with them WITH OUT QUESTION when ever they needed it, and now we find a knife in our back from them.Some of you Europeans seem confused by the reactions of some Americans, the talk about the smell, all the surrender talk and such, in all honesty, most Americans have lost all respect for the French and it shows in these comments, and they could not care LESS what any Frenchman thinksIn reading some of the comments in the above post, I see the Europeans still are lecturing the USA on “it’s responsibilities in the world” That is a HOOT!! And BTW, good luck on the Ivory Coast,I really hate to say this, but one day, the Germans or Russians will decide to march down the Champs-Élysées just for old times sake, and America will remember the French treachery and MIGHT not come to her aid. I wonder how long it will take for them to learn German or Russian?It is just a matter of time till that happens.
And just for the record, I HOPE we would commit troops to aid Britain; they remembered who their friends in this world are.I like and enjoy the company of French individuals on an individual basis, but to me, the French country is not worth another drop of American blood.BTW, very good explanations about the Kyoto agreement.
Andy J http://www.blueridgerails.com/

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-04 AT 06:45 AM (EST)

"I dislike the French because they tend to be insufferably arrogant, probably because they cannot accept that they're no longer a world power, so they have to scream off the tallest buildings about how cool they are (Im my experience on internet forums, the only people who are more likely to be jingoistic twits than the French are the ChiComs)."Do you really think, that meeting a bunch of people virtually in an internet forum where a whole shitload of bullshit is being talked all day is a representative basis for saying ALL THE FRENCH ARE ARROGANT??? "A language is in the end a frivilous thing that has no place being protected by a governement, and should be allowed to evolve without interference: If a language will die without government intervention, then frankly it deserves to die (and French is in no danger of dying off anytime soon). You don't see the governments of Germany, Spain or Italy taking their language so seriously, now do you? Also, did you miss the part about how France wants to make French the official language of the EU, when simple logic dictates that it should be English. France in the only EU country that has demanded that THEIR language be the official EU language."See my post below. And yes it is serious, when you forget the native words and use foreign words instead. It is a matter of arrogance stating that most of the Europeans talk English. Indeed in Central Europe, there are France, Belgium, Luxemburg and a major part of Switzerland talking French, so that is not negligible. Every part of a countries heritage is worth protecting!"French people smell..."And because of the few people you saw, you deduct that the whole French nation smells??? Dude..."Have you ever open an History book ?"This is of course a worthy suggestion. While I commend the writers in this thread for a good discussion my opinion is that there is a lot of false, polarised half-knowledge here."The Pro France crowd will probably remind you about how France helped out in the American Revolution, but the obvious retort to that was the French involvement was purely self-serving, in that the only reason they got involved because the Revolution hurt the British and forced them to draw troops away from Europe: Also the French hoped the new country would be an ally who would help advance France's strategic objectives in the New World: Case in point, Napoleon was constantly trying to get America to help him out in his little wars..."You are right about this one. France was far longer a 'troublemaker' in Europe than for example Germany. But again, this has no influence in modern days way of communicating between countries. Besides, Napoleon's wars were anything but not little."Now as far as you inferring that the US does not respect Human Rights, that is a load of Horse Sh!t.
As much as people from other parts of the world point there fingers and say that the US mistreats people, maybe you should open your eyes and see what your country is doing. We have all sorts of laws in this country restricting what one can say or do concerning people of other races. We do not have ethnic cleansing, such as other countries in Europe do.
Hell, even the homeless in this country get treated better then folks in countries that point the finger at the US."And what is about Abu-Ghreib and Guantanamo Bay???? And can you tell me which country of Western Europe does ethnic cleansing???? And what about the awesome social services in the US???? Do people in the US get a free little appartment when they are jobless and can't pay for it himself??? This is IMHO just propaganda you are distributing here?"BTW, here's a view of China taken 2 years ago. They don't have to do anything about CO2 pollution under Kyoto. Is that fair?"No it is not fair! However, the western industrial nation states have the obligation to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions drastically. It however has no point IF we do not accompany this with measures that are helping third and second world countries do this too. If the Chinese economy is going to grow as before, we will have a serious problem on Earth very soon. Taking these things below your other national objectives is a mistake not we will have to pay back but our children and grandchildren.But then again, most people don't care about them...Cheers!Sebastian

Visit my "sebastian's trains pages" at http://www.freewebs.com/sstyrnol ...

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> And what is about Abu-Ghreib and Guantanamo Bay???? This really pisses me off: first, the persons responsible for the disrespect shown at "Abu-Ghreib" -- and I do mean disrepsect because that's all it was, have been charged under military law and are going through courts-martial right now. One has already been sentanced to 8 years in prison. No cover up, no whitewashing, the people to have done these stupid things are paying for it.And to put it all into perspective, what those idiots on the night shift did was embarass a few of those who were held captive. Now if you go back 12 months before that and look at what Saddam had his minions doing you'd puke your guts out, loose control of your bladder and bowls at the thought of being in that place yourself. And when they were done with you and needed to dispose of the evidence you'd get tossed, alive, into a metal shredding machine (used to recycle metals) and copies of the video tape of you going into said machine would be distributed to your family and neighbors... just so they knew what happens to people who do the wrong thing. If you were lucky they'd have put you in head first so you'd be dead right away. And if you wern't lucky, a slow feed starting at your feet. That's what torture is. A bit different than having some ugly woman point and your gear and laugh.Second, the prisonors at Guantanamo Bay are held in full accord with the Geneva Convention: these are not POW's, they are unlawful combatants as defined by the Geneva Convention and as such they are not due the same treatment given ordinary soldiers or civilians who who come into the hands of military forces in times of war. Dave NelsonWP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 100% complete;
SP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 20% complete;
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>> And what is about Abu-Ghreib and Guantanamo Bay????
>
>This really pisses me off: first, the persons responsible
>for the disrespect shown at "Abu-Ghreib" -- and I do mean
>disrepsect because that's all it was, have been charged
>under military law and are going through courts-martial
>right now. One has already been sentanced to 8 years in
>prison. No cover up, no whitewashing, the people to have
>done these stupid things are paying for it. You forget Dave, The French where bought and paid for, thusly they did not care what Saddam did to his own people.I find it HUMOROUS that they whine about Gitmo and Abu grab prison, they are just displaying their own hypocrisy. I think the American public as a whole have gave up on the French and no long consider her an ally, and rightly so, I personally regret that we WASTED so many American lives in the past keeping THAT ungrateful country free.And they still don’t get it; they STILL TRY to lecture us. Lets read about GLORIOUS French Military accomplishments A Brief French 'Military' HistoryGaul vs. Julius Caesar - Gaul defeated by Rome circa 49 B.C. (Rome defeated the early French swine - the Frenchies had to Hail Julius Caesar as their new leader)Gaul vs. Franks - Gaul defeated by Franks (the 'original' French, replaced by the Franks *sigh*)

Franks vs. Huns - Huns sack Paris circa 450 A.D. (Huns finally defeated here - Attila's ONLY defeat. Notice it was done by a German-Roman coalition, NOT the Franks)Franks vs. Themselves - Clovis unites Franks into one kingdom around 511 A.D. He dies and the 'kingdom' falls apart at the seams. Ever hear of naming a successor or how bout a will?Franks vs. Muslims - Charles Martel defeats a SMALL Muslim raiding party at the Battle of Tours in 732 A.D. Muslims lost interest so Charles claimed a 'great victory'. Notice they didn't follow up and kick the Muslims out of Spain though.....Franks vs. Franks - Charlemagne crowned 'Emperor of the Romans', Christmas 800 A.D. Again this 'empire' fell apart by 840 A.D. - sheesh. Charlemagne could read but couldn't write - now what sense does that make? Franks vs. Vikings - From 841 to 911 A.D. the Viking Warrior- mopped the Frankish countryside with Frank blood. France surrenders Normandy to Vikings 911 A.D. (Stupid mid-evil France was easily bullied by real warriors)Franks vs. Black Death - 1347 - 1350 A.D. Black Death kills Frenchies good. This plague was said to originate in Mongolia, from the vermin. BUT, we all know it HAD to have came from the filthy French swine.France vs. England - 100 Years War 1337 - 1453 A.D. Battle of Crecy - 1337 A.D. (English hand the French their own tails in the start of the 100 Years War with the timely use of the longbow. French knights are mowed down like the cannon fodder they were.) Battle of Poitiers, 1356 A.D. - More of the same. Battle of Agincourt, 1415 A.D. - Henry V gets some French butt-whoopin' action. Unfortunately, a heretic freak named Joan of Arc came along and united all the French Frogs and they managed to repel the English. And we all know where that got her....TOASTY.Italian Wars - Lost. France becomes the first and only country to ever lose two wars when fighting Italians. Wars of Religion - France goes 0-5-4 against the Huguenots.
France vs. France - 1572 A.D. St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre by Queen Catherine. She killed thousands of protestants and Jews. Hrm...that sounds really familiar - the FINAL SOLUTION ring any bells? They were no better than Nazi Germany and yet they are proud of their heritage?

France vs. Europe - War of Spanish Succession 1648 A.D. (France tries to fight rest of Europe over Spain and looses to Frederick William of Germany)France vs. Europe - 7 Years War or French Indian War 1756 A.D. (France gets beat up on 2 different continents by England and Germany plus the early future Americans - a guy named George Washington ring any bells?)France vs. France - French Revolution 1789 - 1799A.D. (France kicks their own tails) Dr. Guillotine makes a handy invention that allows the Frenchies to chop off their own heads with amazing speed - thanks Jacobin Republicans!France vs. Europe - Waterloo 1815 A.D. (Wellington delivers knockout to Napoleon - 2nd time. This comes AFTER the Russian Winter destroyed the largest army in the World and the U.S. conned old Nappy in the Louisiana Purchase - WHAT A BARGAIN!)France vs. France - French Revolution (again) 1848 A.D. (France is still kicking their own tails on a smaller scale)France vs. Mexico - late 1860s - early 1870s A.D. - France conquers Mexico. Wow! Amazing. What an accomplishment. Funny though, when the U.S. decided to enforce the Monroe Doctrine and in so many words told France to get the H*LL out of our side of the world, they tucked tail and ran.France vs. Prussia - Franco-Prussian War 1870 A.D. (William I of Germany kicks the teeth out of Napoleon III - good old Willy proclaims himself emperor of Germany at the Palace of Versailles - can you say who’s yer daddie?) This all started because France opposed the unification of Germany - notice this starts a nasty chain of events that doesn't end till 1945......seems to me we can almost chalk up WWI and II on the dumb French. France vs. Germany - WWI 1914-1918 A.D. (Germany beats the h%ll out of France - without the aid of USA, France would be speaking German. France only won because of Uncle Sam jumped in - then those sore-winners in France impose an incredibly harsh Treaty of Versailles to 'punish' the Germans. Notice the resulting conditions of this allowed the rise of an unknown Austrian named HITLER.France vs. Germany - Rise of Hitler 1933-1939 A.D. (Germany bullies France into letting them take more territory - the cowards wouldn't even fight over it - they adopted a policy of 'appeasement' - can you say SCARED?)France vs. Germany Round II - WWII June 22, 1940 A.D. (France surrenders to Hitler at Compiegne after putting up a fight that made Polish Army look good. Notice Vichy France who quickly jumped ship to be friends with the Germans. And once again without the help of good old Uncle Sam the Atlantic Wall would never have been penetrated - France would either be a part of the 3rd Reich or a satellite country of Communist Russia under Uncle Joe Stalin)France vs. Vietcong - Vietnam 1954 A.D. (French Army at Dien Bien Phu surrender to Ho Chi Minh) Algerian Rebellion - Lost. Loss marks the first defeat of a western army by a Non-Turkic Muslim force since the Crusades, and produces the First Rule of Muslim Warfare; "We can always beat the French." This rule is identical to the First Rules of the Italians, Russians, Germans, English, Dutch, Spanish, Vietnamese and Esquimaux. War on Terrorism - France, keeping in mind its recent history, surrenders to Germans and Muslims just to be safe. Attempts to surrender to Vietnamese ambassador fail after he takes refuge in a McDonald's.
Andy J http://www.blueridgerails.com/

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-04 AT 02:34 PM (EST)

> You forget Dave, The French where bought and paid for....No, I just didn't bother mentioning it. FWIW, the French Army after their revolution kicked butt from Lisbon to Moscow for 25 years. Whether you like it or not, they were not just damn good at what they were doing, they were an order of magnitude better at it than anybody else. That they ultimately lost was simply because the demographics were against them: France vs. all of Europe isn't great odds when you need 2 generations of soldiers... in fact, just by the numbers, they should have gone down to defeat in year 1.Simply put you should give proper credit where credit is due.Dave NelsonWP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 100% complete;
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A glimmer of HOPE for the French!! The managed 25 years of military success! I wonder what happend to those great warriors DNA? Andy J http://www.blueridgerails.com/

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>Italian Wars - Lost. France becomes the first and only country to ever lose two wars when fighting Italians.That's my favorite part.

"Hold tight,feel the drivers bite,hear the whistle moan.Engine rockin' to the left and right,vibratin' in my bones.Once the locomotive steals your soul,you got a Casey Jones!"---Ian"Lemmy"Kilmister

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A pretty one sided view of history. Why not look at history as a whole? Don't think many peoples stood up to the Romans. If the Romans couldn't conquer you, they simply built a wall along the boarder to keep you out. As for the plague, this affected Europe as a whole and was indeed brought in from afar. Jeanne D'Arc, she did more for her people than any ONE person has done for the US, IMHO. Maybe she heard voices, maybe not, but she did manage to unite her people and restore a sense of patriotism in them. The only person in NA that I can think of would be Tecumseh. I think during the religious wars that occured throughout Europe, most European countries were commiting some kind of atrocity or another, so it would not be fair to simply point out one bad apple. They were all pretty much bad during that time. And we have seen that trying to invade Russia from central Europe simply is not a good idea if it is going to last over a winter season. Napoleon could not do it and Hitler learned the hard way too. The US has existed for a little over 200 years and we have had only 1 civil war. I could be wrong, but I believe the US civil war was a lot worse than those in France, and hopefully there won't be another. Of course we can sit here and pick out any flaw of any country over its history. But is it really fair to judge people without looking at the WHOLE picture and taking into mind the time period?Mykel

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My people sacked Rome.

"Hold tight,feel the drivers bite,hear the whistle moan.Engine rockin' to the left and right,vibratin' in my bones.Once the locomotive steals your soul,you got a Casey Jones!"---Ian"Lemmy"Kilmister

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As did mine! LOL!My work here is done!
You guys are actually arguing historical facts for once!I love it!
Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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I'm outta here.Mike

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That's it Mike," I fart in your general direction!"

"Hold tight,feel the drivers bite,hear the whistle moan.Engine rockin' to the left and right,vibratin' in my bones.Once the locomotive steals your soul,you got a Casey Jones!"---Ian"Lemmy"Kilmister

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MykelJeanne D'Arc, she did more for her people than any ONE person has done for the US, IMHO. Maybe she heard voices, maybe not, but she did manage to unite her people and restore a sense of patriotism in them.
And I might point out that in a display of fine French gratitude she was invited to a weenie roast as the weenie of honor.Gary S

43 year old future curmudgen(Hey you kids get offa my lawn!!)

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Yes I know this, but the English were a little responsible as well.The point I was trying to make, is; that if looked under a microscope it would be very easy to paint all countries that have ever existed badly. However, if you pull back a little and look at the larger picture you will see that there is more to it than meets the eye.Mykel

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>France vs. Germany - WWI 1914-1918 A.D. (Germany beats the
>h%ll out of France - without the aid of USA, France would
>be speaking German. France only won because of Uncle Sam
>jumped in...Erm, what about the rest of the Allies? As an Aussie, I object to your statement. Don't forget, the US ambled in in 1917, when Aussies ( and the rest of the Allies) had been at war with Germany for almost three years.Don't get me wrong, I agree with some of your sentiments about the French. There are many thousands of Australian bodies in war cemeteries in France. What did they do for us?Cheers,
Matt Austin

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>Erm, what about the rest of the Allies? As an Aussie, I
>object to your statement. Don't forget, the US ambled in in
>1917, when Aussies ( and the rest of the Allies) had been at
>war with Germany for almost three years. I am sorry if I offended you OR the Allies, ANZAC troops did play an important role in the great wars, one of the center pieces of my military rifle collection is a PRISTINE Lee-Enfield No1 MKIII .303, of Lithgow manufacture, with ALL the markingsI am PROUD to own and fire that rifle!And you ARE correct, about the USA taking its time to get into the wars.I did not intend my post to belittle the Allies, just too be-little the French!
Andy J http://www.blueridgerails.com/

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Fair enough, no worries.When I was a kid, my dad had a Lee-Enfield SMLE. It was pretty tired when he bought it for a pound in the 1950s, although it was still an impressive weapon when I remember it in the 70s. My aim is to have one of my own sometime. I still remember the sore shoulder I received, not expecting the kick of such a rifle!I do smile when I think just how much Australia has helped France in the 20th century. They repaid our kindness by setting of nukes in the South Pacific. Yeah, thanks guys! The French have done plenty for Australia, like...erm...hmm...ahh, I'll get back to you!It is not entirely bad. There are French people who have handed down the stories of what the Aussies did. The village of Villiers-Bretonneux is an example, they remember and still recognise the events of 1918.All the best,
Matt

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Blackmarking cultures on either side of the equation is lame. I enjoy being an outsider looking in at this crappy debate, especially since both sides are wrong.By the by, it's spelled 'defense.'"The F59PHI and Genesis are the lamest excuses for locomotives Amtrak has ever operated - accept it and move on. Hug an F40 before it's too late!""To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
- Theodore Roosevelt"Ahhh, a mother/daughter bonding over gay porn at lunch - the visions of my youth."
-That girl I like too much for my own good

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Ahh, Monsieur Cantu ow yoo say in British English Defence!Mike

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-25-04 AT 06:31 PM (EST)

Before I leave this thread forever I'll say one last thing: Regardless of what else I think of France, I will forever thank them for giving us the Metric system, while I will forever curse the British for giving us the Imperial system . Jonathan Nikiforovs.
Milepost 180, CP Belleville Sub.

Repainter for Yonder Locomotive Works.

"A crictic is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased - he hates all creative people equally." - Lazarus Long

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