Declaration of Independence Banned at Calif School

A California school principal HAS BANNED the “Declaration of Independence” from her school, Because of the term “god” is used in itThis is outrageous and insulting, give her a call and ask her EXACTLY what is her problem with this great document!http://www.reuters.com/printerFriendlyPopup.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6911883Patricia Vidmar - Principal - (408) 245-3312, I will make it a point to call on Monday.This politically correct nonsense HAS TO STOP; they are blatantly mis-representing the founding principals of this GREAT country.I guess we should expect it though, from the “People’s republik of California” Angrily yours;
Andy J
--------------------------------
R.I.P;Norfolk and Western, at least I got to know ya
You WILL find me hanging out on the Pocahontas and Radford Div of NSAndy J

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RE: Declaration of Independence Banned at Calif School, rpicardi1, Nov-24-04, 07:19 PM, (1) RE: Declaration of Independence Banned at Calif School, James, Nov-24-04, 07:29 PM, (2) RE: Declaration of Independence Banned at Calif School, NewEnglandRailFan, Nov-24-04, 07:52 PM, (3) RE: Declaration of Independence Banned at Calif School, runaway_b_unit, Nov-24-04, 09:02 PM, (4) RE: Declaration of Independence Banned at Calif School, Poltergeist, Nov-25-04, 00:53 AM, (5) RE: Declaration of Independence Banned at Calif School, CGW409, Nov-25-04, 11:44 AM, (6) RE: Declaration of Independence Banned at Calif School, DRGWK36, Nov-25-04, 03:27 PM, (9) RE: Declaration of Independence Banned at Calif School, mjs2101, Nov-25-04, 08:46 PM, (10) RE: Declaration of Independence Banned at Calif School, dti407, Nov-25-04, 11:57 AM, (7) RE: Declaration of Independence Banned at Calif School, erniep, Nov-25-04, 01:36 PM, (8) RE: Declaration of Independence Banned at Calif School, BNSF4723, Nov-26-04, 00:07 AM, (11) God....yes or no?, Baldwinbob, Nov-26-04, 00:54 AM, (12) RE: God....yes or no?, shadowr434, Nov-27-04, 03:49 PM, (13) RE: God....yes or no?, GrandTrunkFan, Nov-27-04, 08:49 PM, (14) RE: Declaration of Independence Banned at Calif School, muskokaandtahoe, Dec-04-04, 12:13 PM, (15) RE: Declaration of Independence Banned at Calif School, stationmaster, Dec-04-04, 03:50 PM, (16) RE: Declaration of Independence Banned at Calif School, ns_sd70m, Dec-06-04, 01:45 AM, (17) RE: Declaration of Independence Banned at Calif School, stationmaster, Dec-06-04, 11:38 AM, (18) RE: Declaration of Independence Banned at Calif School, mrmike, Dec-06-04, 02:08 PM, (19) RE: Declaration of Independence Banned at Calif School, muskokaandtahoe, Dec-06-04, 03:37 PM, (20) RE: Declaration of Independence Banned at Calif School, mrmike, Dec-06-04, 06:00 PM, (21) RE: Declaration of Independence Banned at Calif School, muskokaandtahoe, Dec-06-04, 10:39 PM, (22) RE: Declaration of Independence Banned at Calif School, ns_sd70m, Dec-07-04, 01:57 AM, (23) RE: Declaration of Independence Banned at Calif School, mario_puzo, Dec-09-04, 10:57 PM, (24) RE: Declaration of Independence Banned at Calif School, muskokaandtahoe, Dec-10-04, 12:58 PM, (25)

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That's one of many reasons why so many parents are pulling their kids from the public schools and send them to private ones or home school them.Wait until you see what the liberals in the public schools have done in rewriting American History to make it "politically correct."SRV Ron

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You're going to have to wait your trun i will tell hear couple of words sdhe mays not like.
Check out my Website
http://www.freewebs.com/surfliner01/index.htm

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Yeah. Good stuff. (That was sarcasam)So us kids can't learn about the development of the United States because of some 3 letter word God. She might be hearing a few 4 letter words on Monday.
-Dave

You can e-mail me at davej8010@aol.com -or- hrrc_7324@yahoo.com -or- feel free to aim me.

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Just another sign that the yuppie's are taking over. All this complaining and blaming and lawsuits... people no longer realize that there are way more important thing in life.

C h r i s

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-25-04 AT 01:50 AM (EST)

wrong post.

Sean Summer AKA Poltergeist
"The voices, the voices, I hear them, they're with me, so I follow I follow..." ~Eminem's "Guilty Conscious"

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-25-04 AT 11:47 AM (EST)

Andy
Unfortunately the stupidity has gone bi coastal as Maryland has decided to teach the kids in regards to Thanksgiving that the pilgrims got together to thank the indians not God.
More politically correct bull s***(and the libs just can't figure out why this country is going more and more red state).
Also don't forget that there are those that would like the Bill of Rights,Declaration of Independece,Constitution not be read at all and or replaced with the Communist Manifesto.Gary S

43 year old future curmudgen(Hey you kids get offa my lawn!!)

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-25-04 AT 03:29 PM (EST)

"...those that would like the Bill of Rights...replaced with the Communist Manifesto."I recently saw poll results that found about 1/3 of the people taking the poll thought the following was in the Constitution:"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs," which is the fundamental basis for Marxism. I did a search for, but was unable to find, a poll I had heard about that found that a majority of those who were read the Bill of Rights thought it was a Communist document.Researchers consistently find that people don't want to apply the Bill of Rights (or other Constitutional protections) to those who have different opinions from our own. In other words, it's OK to cut corners with the Constitutional protections if it's someone different than me. The trouble is that once the corners are cut for one group, then it's just a matter of defining the group you want to deny rights to. See as an example the Patriot Act.It's not the "politically correct" ones that are the danger - it's "we the people" who don't want to pay attention. Andy(Edit - can't stand mispelled words)

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I thought Thanksgiving was more about paying respect to the Native Americans for assisting the Pilgrims in making the transition to the "new world" and surviving. At least that is what I grew up believing in NC. Never really figured it had anything to do with religion. Of course, maybe I am simply misunderstanding your post. But yes, I agree that this "PC" stuff is going a little... well maybe A LOT... over board. The way things are going, this country is not going to have any kind of identity in the future.Mykel

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>This politically correct nonsense HAS TO STOP; they are
>blatantly mis-representing the founding principals of this
>GREAT country. I fully agree...Greg Zoll

Overheard on the scanner:
"Q393 east on 2, clear 77.9."
Five seconds later:
"Dang it! West on one out!"

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I take it that they will be banning money next? " In whomever we trust"? cheers,
Ernie

Ahhh, the light at the end of the tunnel.

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I'm am no fan of religion, and do not believe in god at all, however I do think this is completely ridiculous. Thats all I can say really.

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The following is an actual question given on a University of Washington chemistry mid-term. The answer by one student was so "profound" that the professor shared it with colleagues, via the Internet, which is, of course, why we now have the pleasure of enjoying it as well. Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)? Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law (gas cools when it expands and heats when it is compressed) or some variant. One student, however, wrote the following: First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell! , it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different Religions that exist in the world today. Most of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls are added. This gives two possibilities: 1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose. 2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over. So which is it? If we accept the postulate given to me by Teresa during my Freshman year that, "it will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you," and take into account the fact that I slept with her last night, then number 2 must be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and has already frozen over. The corollary of this theory is that since Hell has frozen over, it follows that it is not accepting any more souls and is therefore, extinct...leaving only Heaven thereby proving the existence of a divine being which explains why, last night, Teresa kept shouting "Oh my God." THIS STUDENT RECEIVED THE ONLY " A"

===========================
Steroids? Damn, I thought it was lip balm.

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>
>
>
>The following is an actual question given on a University of
>Washington chemistry mid-term. The answer by one student was
>so "profound" that the professor shared it with colleagues,
>via the
>
>Internet, which is, of course, why we now have the pleasure
>of enjoying it as well.
>
>Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or
>endothermic (absorbs heat)?
>
>Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using
>Boyle's Law (gas cools when it expands and heats when it is
>compressed) or some variant.
>
>One student, however, wrote the following:
>
>First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in
>time. So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving
>into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving. I think
>that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell! ,
>it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving.
>
>As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the
>different Religions that exist in the world today. Most of
>these religions state that if you are not a member of their
>religion, you will go to Hell.
>
>Since there is more than one of these religions and since
>people do not belong to more than one religion, we can
>project that all souls go to Hell.
>
>With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the
>number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially. Now, we
>look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because
>Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and
>pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to
>expand proportionately as souls are added.
>
>This gives two possibilities:
>
>1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at
>which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in
>Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.
>
>2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase
>of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will
>drop until Hell freezes over.
>
>So which is it?
>
>If we accept the postulate given to me by Teresa during my
>Freshman year that, "it will be a cold day in Hell before I
>sleep with you," and take into account the fact that I slept
>with her last night, then number 2 must be true, and thus I
>am sure that Hell is exothermic and has already frozen over.
>
>The corollary of this theory is that since Hell has frozen
>over, it follows that it is not accepting any more souls and
>is therefore, extinct...leaving only Heaven thereby proving
>the existence of a divine being which explains why, last
>night, Teresa kept shouting "Oh my God."
>
>THIS STUDENT RECEIVED THE ONLY " A"
Great post Bob. I thoroughly enjoyed reading that.

Frank Roberts
P&D Tractor trailer Driver for R&L Carriers
Member of the Middletown Ct Office of Emergency Managment
"Sometimes I dream about being carried off by a big giant squirrel. Does that make me a nut?"

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Anyone watch Blue Collar TV and see Larry the Cable Guy reading politiclally correct fairy tales? But anyway this is bull sh*t. If you dont like it, go to Russia.

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Well... ya'll have a right to your opinions of course, as do I, so let me toss out a couple thoughts for your consideration.I personally know these people. My children attended that school. Mr Williams taught one of my daughters.I dunno about this specific events described, but knowing the individuals involved I think it fair to say there's probably quite a bit more to the whole story than was in the press clipping.Now I'm not a betting man, but if I was, I'd be putting all my chips on Ms. Vidmar to have been right in what she did, and I based that largely because of my opinion of Mr Williams. And I'd also bet the dispute didn't start anywhere near the Declaration of Independance, that's just where it ended.FWIW, this is in the heart of Silicon Valley. A majority of students at this school are not of European Ancestry. A very large number of those who are not have parents who were born outside of the US. Many intend to return home when they retire. And the school test scores are always in the top 5% of the state of California, sometimes the top 2%, so the notion of a bunch of ignorant immigrants doesn't apply. Median price of an ordinary suburban house here is $850,000 (the dirt underneath them is really expensive). There are just a couple of Churches here, in a town of 37,000. Fill in a few blanks? What do you think the odds were that more than a few parents didn't like what was really being taught to their kid? And that they could, with considerable skill, articulate a complaint that cut right to the heart of the matter?Now I'm a conservative guy and I think the DoI is an extremely important document that absolutely should be taught in several grades of public school. But in this case, I really doubt the document was the problem.Dave NelsonWP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 100% complete;
SP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 20% complete;
Aug 1950
<<new .sig under construction>>

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I also have a rather skeptical reaction to this story. First off, only one side is being reported since, as is almost always the case, an official policy on not commenting on pending litigation. The entire story is from the point of view of the plaintiff and his lawyers.It is not clear, but it seems that the problem is NOT the Declaration of Independence, but the student handouts - the full content of which is NOTABLY ABSENT from any of the news stories I've seen. Given prior complaints by parents about the teacher, I would reserve judgement until the entire document become public.

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-06-04 AT 01:47 AM (EST)

Here's my position on the issue. If it weren't for the Declaration of Independence, then the United States of America would never exist. Period. We would be paying tithes to the monarchy. As such, I believe that this document marks the beginning of the American Tradition and that anybody who denounces it on the grounds of some "politically correct" bullcrap doesen't appreciate how fortunate they are to live in this country an ought to go live somewhere else, which they have the right to do. And the fact that they are imposing their beliefs on impressionable school children is especially despicable in my opinion and constitutes brain-washing. Schools should teach children that our founding fathers deserve the utmost respect for allowing them to live in freedom, instead of trying to satisfy everybody's personal beliefs by refusing to teach them the important lessons that history has to offer. Then, mabye these children would grow up into decent young adults who respect the rights of others out of their respect for the founding values of America.

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I agree completely with your view of the importance of the Declaration however, the question that you may be missing is whether it was the teacher's handout or the "Declaration of Independence" that is creating a problem. If the teacher was using the Declaration as a supporting document in a handout that advocates a particular brand of religion, then there's an issue. Until the handouts are public, I think it is unreasonable to jump to a conclusion.Suppose a teacher gives students a handout advocating the overthrow of the government and includes the Declaration of Independence as part of the text. If the school Principal stops the handout from being distributed, would that be considered "Banning the Declaration"? Context, context, context.

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Perhaps all of you would like to read the follow up to this story.
http://www.eriposte.com/philosophy/fundamentalism/stevenscreek.htm

My Computer specs are in my profile
Mike
"

This Smile says it all"

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-06-04 AT 03:38 PM (EST)

> ...ought to go live somewhere else....Oh get real.> And the fact that they are imposing their beliefs on impressionable school children is especially despicable....You bet. That's why Mr. Williams was already in trouble at school -- because he would not keep his own religious views to himself. And he's counting on knee-jerk reactions like yours to get him out of the mess he's made for himself.I suppose you didn't know he wanted to teach all about easter. Or that he was under censure for some time, due to parents complaining, well before this incident over the DoI occurred.I'll repeat myself here -- I know these people, my kids went to that school, and Mr. Williams was the 5th grade teacher for one of my kids. And you know what? He was a lousy teacher. With tenure. Talking with him was a lot like talking to the wall. There never seemed to be a whole lot of comprehension or response on his part. Our family had some major **teaching** issues with him. And there he is, teaching in a district where 54% of the parents of those kids have Post Graduate degrees. You can bet your last dollar the folks around here have extremely high expectations for their kids and I know they are very active in making sure the school district knows about those expectations.This school has 52% of the kids with Asian ancestry and a very large number of them were born outside the US. This school is not you average Normal Rockwell image from Kansas. And there is Mr. Williams trying to a lesson on Easter of all things. He is a dim bulb. Do you think this has been the only compaint about him? Do you think a better teacher would have gotten in trouble for doing the same course material? I don't.And having put up with his "teaching" one of my kids I can say quite freely that his departure, for whatever reason, will improve the quality of education at that school, w/o regard whatsoever to what his replacements religious faith happens to be. And I'll bet the DoI will be right back in the classroom too, just as it should.This issue isn't about god or christianity folks, it's about a poor teacher.Dave NelsonWP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 100% complete;
SP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 20% complete;
Aug 1950
<<new .sig under construction>>

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-06-04 AT 06:02 PM (EST)

Dave,
>You bet. That's why Mr. Williams was already in trouble at
>school -- because he would not keep his own religious views
>to himself. And he's counting on knee-jerk reactions like
>yours to get him out of the mess he's made for himself.
>Dave Nelson Was this quote directed at the Link I provided in post #19? The only reason I provided the link, was to inform. Not to offer an opinion of my own. My Computer specs are in my profile
Mike
"

This Smile says it all"

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> Was this quote directed at the Link I provided in post #19?No. It was not.I you look carefully you'll see that each reply shows which message number it is replying to. I don't recall the number right now but its the one with the suggestion that people who don't support Mr Williams should move out of the country. Pitifull.Dave NelsonWP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 100% complete;
SP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 20% complete;
Aug 1950
<<new .sig under construction>>

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> I you look carefully you'll see that each reply shows which message number it is replying to. I don't recall the number right now but its the one with the suggestion that people who don't support Mr Williams should move out of the country. Pitifull.I didn't directly say that anybody that doesn't support the teacher in question should move out of the country. To sum up my above post, I simply meant to say that people who don't respect the values that this country was founded upon don't have to put up with it. If they don't like it here, they have the right to leave. But in no way am I "demanding" that anybody leave the country. Our founding fathers promised freedom of speech for all, even if that speech is critical of what America stands for. Such people have every right to live in this country if they should so choose. But under that same ideal, other people that don't agree also have the right to express their counter-opinions on the matter. Which is what I was doing. I was simply pointing out that in general, I feel that Americans need to just stop and think for a moment how thankful they are to live in freedom and to just show a little respect for those that made that freedom possible.

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>> ...ought to go live somewhere else....
>
>Oh get real.
>
>> And the fact that they are imposing their beliefs on impressionable school children is especially despicable....
>
>You bet. That's why Mr. Williams was already in trouble at
>school -- because he would not keep his own religious views
>to himself. And he's counting on knee-jerk reactions like
>yours to get him out of the mess he's made for himself.
>
>I suppose you didn't know he wanted to teach all about
>easter. Or that he was under censure for some time, due to
>parents complaining, well before this incident over the DoI
>occurred.
>
>I'll repeat myself here -- I know these people, my kids went
>to that school, and Mr. Williams was the 5th grade teacher
>for one of my kids. And you know what? He was a lousy
>teacher. With tenure. Talking with him was a lot like
>talking to the wall. There never seemed to be a whole lot
>of comprehension or response on his part. Our family had
>some major **teaching** issues with him. And there he is,
>teaching in a district where 54% of the parents of
>those kids have Post Graduate degrees. You can bet your
>last dollar the folks around here have extremely
>high expectations for their kids and I know they are
>very active in making sure the school district knows about
>those expectations.
>
>This school has 52% of the kids with Asian ancestry and a
>very large number of them were born outside the US. This
>school is not you average Normal Rockwell image from Kansas.
> And there is Mr. Williams trying to a lesson on Easter of
>all things. He is a dim bulb. Do you think this has been
>the only compaint about him? Do you think a better teacher
>would have gotten in trouble for doing the same course
>material? I don't.
>
>And having put up with his "teaching" one of my kids I can
>say quite freely that his departure, for whatever reason,
>will improve the quality of education at that school, w/o
>regard whatsoever to what his replacements religious faith
>happens to be. And I'll bet the DoI will be right back in
>the classroom too, just as it should.
>
>This issue isn't about god or christianity folks, it's about
>a poor teacher.
>
>Dave Nelson
>
>WP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 100% complete;
>SP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 20% complete;
>Aug 1950
>
>
>
><<new .sig under construction>>
I am very familiar with the Asian immigrants and the intellectual masses on a whole. I attend a high school in the bay area where the majority of students are Asian (65%) and are highly educated. While not exactly on the same topic of this thread, I suggest this radio spot that really highlights what the education system is like in the High-Tech parts of the Bay Area. And, yes, it's NPR, but don't worry, the story isn't biased. It's just a good report. Also, there is a link to "part 2" underneath the summary that specifically describes the high school that I attend. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4190129

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>While not exactly on the same topic
>of this thread, I suggest this radio spot that really
>highlights what the education system is like in the
>High-Tech parts of the Bay Area. And, yes, it's NPR, but
>don't worry, the story isn't biased. It's just a good
>report. Also, there is a link to "part 2" underneath the
>summary that specifically describes the high school that I
>attend.
>
>http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4190129 This is a good news report... it is exactly the same as the school district under discussion in this thread.A couple of points that were mentioned that I thought were particularly germaine: the Indian lady who travelled/lived around the world before settling down here. A lot of people here have done much the same... in many ways these folks are very broad minded. And yet these immigrant parents are extremely closed minded about one thing in particular: their childrens education... those folks know what real poverty looks like. They grew up check by jowl with real poverty. Or in real proverty. And they know they got out only by their education. And they sure as heck don't want their children to slip up and return to the hell they themselves knew all to well.As an example, a 14 year old we know told us "If I don't get all A's I'm going to be homeless and live on the street". Surely that's not some idea she got all on her own.These parents, and their kids are really driven. Sometimes unpleasantly so. So when I hear a teacher is in trouble at a local school, I don't think the issues are ever entirely public; I do think it's a near certainty that complaining parents are behind it.Dave NelsonWP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 100% complete;
SP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 20% complete;
Aug 1950
<<new .sig under construction>>

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